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Mason King
07-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Hey Folks,

BD's managing editor here. I want to draw your attention to ESPN's airings of the GenerationPool.com 9-Ball Championship on Saturday from Noon to 6 p.m., EST. First off, it's a great opportunity to catch six straight hours of championship level pool, but I also am interested in your impressions of the match between Johnny Archer and Ronnie Wiseman that starts at noon.

A little background: On the hill and leading, 6-4, Wiseman was about to stroke a tight shot on the 5 ball when Archer interrupted to ask the referee about the potential for fouling on the shot. Rattled by the interruption, Wiseman missed the shot, refused to accept Archerís apologies, and late accused him of sharking.

This is notable for a bunch of reasons. It's the first major dispute that I've seen on a televised match in six years. Also, these two guys are very good friends, and they both were upset after the match about how it all played out. I'm interested to see how much of this makes it onto the telecast, and I'm interested in getting your impressions.

Have a great weekend. And I'll hear from you soon.

Mason King
07-18-2008, 11:24 AM
Quick addendum: I'm forgetting about the many disputes that we've seen over the years at the Mosconi Cup. That's some serious drama. But still, this was a shocker.

Deeman3
07-18-2008, 12:27 PM
Mason, I'll wait until I see the actual shot to make a final judgement but I have always been careful about questioning a call as soon as I have suspicions and taking care not to say anything after the other player is in his routine. Ronnie is quite deliberate as is Johnny so I can't see where there would not have been time for Johnny to "see" the potential shot problem. I'll be interested to see the actual timing this weekend. I'll also say both these players tend to be under control at least in tournament play. It will be strange to see them at odds.

Thanks

Deeman3
07-18-2008, 12:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick addendum: I'm forgetting about the many disputes that we've seen over the years at the Mosconi Cup. That's some serious drama. But still, this was a shocker. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">But that was just Earl, right? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </span>

Mason King
07-18-2008, 12:30 PM
Deeman, you're definitely right in how it just comes down to timing. I think that's crux of the issue in this case. And it's really too bad, because both these guys are straight shooters in my experience, and it's tough to see them at odds.

Vapros
07-18-2008, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the heads-up. Six hours of good pool on ESPN comes as a real surprise and a great treat.

Mason King
07-18-2008, 01:59 PM
Deeman: Earl certainly ends up in his fair share of scrapes at the Mosconi Cup. He also has the best won-loss record overall of all competitors. That format really brings out the best and worst in him. He really makes that event hum.

Fran Crimi
07-19-2008, 03:34 PM
Mason, did Johnny say to you that he went over to Ronnie to apologize? If he didn't we don't really know for sure why he walked over to Ronnie because Ronnie waved him off before Johnny said anything. I thought Johnny walked over to say good luck as many players do when an important match goes to hill-hill.

Fran

1Time
07-19-2008, 04:12 PM
I did not see the telecast, but here's my take.

Sharking or not, the only thing that should have mattered is whether the interruption was allowed by the rules.

Did the referee call a violation of the rules? Apparently not. So play on. See, even professional pool players can't figure this out.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-19-2008, 07:09 PM
Fran I thought I saw you in the audience


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mason, did Johnny say to you that he went over to Ronnie to apologize? If he didn't we don't really know for sure why he walked over to Ronnie because Ronnie waved him off before Johnny said anything. I thought Johnny walked over to say good luck as many players do when an important match goes to hill-hill.

Fran </div></div>

Johnny apologized before Ronnie executed the shot (as he was walking back to his chair). I don't think Ronnie accepted it. He said "The damage is done". If he is a seasoned road player that should not have affected him at all should it?

You are correct. Johnny walked over to say "good match" as many players do at hill-hill(even at my level) to say "whoever wins it was a good match".

Ronnie refused to shake his hand saying "not now, now after what you pulled."

Johnny said "OK that's cool".

There was no handshake after the match (judging by what ESPN showed, and they showed a lot).

So, was Johnny at fault for questioning the call in advance? Or with a refree present, is he bound solely by the ref's decision and should have stayed in his seat?

1Time
07-19-2008, 08:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wally_in_Cincy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, was Johnny at fault for questioning the call in advance? Or with a refree present, is he bound solely by the ref's decision and should have stayed in his seat?
</div></div>
Depends on what the rules were. I don't know what they were. And apparently one or both of these pros didn't either.

Phonymosconi
07-19-2008, 09:47 PM
Johnny is a very nervous person, as evidenced by his stroking, then standing up again, then stroking, and doing this several times. But we should forgive him on the basis of his being a very decent person and also because Johnny knows that referees are frequently asleep at the switch or standing behind the player and can't see the balls. Ask Earl the Pearl about the time he fouled and kept on shooting when he was playing the Korean Dragon. Fortunately, the dragon won.
Phonymosconi (the nickname the kids gave me in 1950 when I playedthe real Mosconi in an exhibition.)

Fran Crimi
07-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Wally, players are not supposed to interfere with their opponent's turn at the table when there is a ref at the table.

However, players do interfere and they do get away with it quite often. It's a dilemma for the ref sometimes. Why call a player as unsportsmanlike if no harm was done, particularly if the shooter doesn't seem the least bit bothered by it? (I'm not saying I agree with this logic.)And that does set a precedent of sorts.

Unfortunately, it often only comes to light as wrong when the shooter appears visibly sharked.

Fran

skin
07-19-2008, 10:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phonymosconi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Johnny is a very nervous person, as evidenced by his stroking, then standing up again, then stroking, and doing this several times. But we should forgive him on the basis of his being a very decent person and also because Johnny knows that referees are frequently asleep at the switch or standing behind the player and can't see the balls. Ask Earl the Pearl about the time he fouled and kept on shooting when he was playing the Korean Dragon. Fortunately, the dragon won.
Phonymosconi (the nickname the kids gave me in 1950 when I playedthe real Mosconi in an exhibition.) </div></div>

When the opponent is at the table, sit. When you are at the table, make the shot or sit down. There isn't much else to it.

Sharking, from both the standpoint of the predator who tries it and the prey who succumbs to it, is amateurish and displays a weakness in the mental character of both.

Deeman3
07-21-2008, 10:26 AM
It's a hard one to call. I guess both sides have points but it is good that, in the end, Ronnie prevailed. At least it won't eat on him like losing that match might have. I really enjoyed the matches.

Eric.
07-21-2008, 10:43 AM
To play devils advocate; I think the tour/tourney rules need to be defined. If there is a ref present, the call or non call should be solely on the Ref. Think about how it is in other major sports with Refs.


Eric

JJFSTAR
07-21-2008, 05:31 PM
There are pocket cams, moving cams and standing cams. If Johnny thought Ronnie was about to foul then after Ronnie shot he should have called a foul. Vivian did it once, well she said Jeannette didnít call a pocket and it stood if memory serves. Dr. Cue called a foul on Stefano and they reviewed it right then and there.

I have the utmost respect for Johnny Archer and his game and I love to watch him play he has been dazzling me for years.
But he made a mistake thatís all and it doesnít go any farther than that. I do not believe that he was trying to shark Ronnie I think that he was in fact trying to be a nice guy about it and Ronnie just took it the wrong way it happens all the time every day.

He made a simple mistake he just happened to do it on national television. Johnny Archer is a great guy and a great pool player but he's human even though you wouldnít think so by his game. Allow people to make mistakes even the great ones.

skin
07-21-2008, 06:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a hard one to call. I guess both sides have points but it is good that, in the end, Ronnie prevailed. At least it won't eat on him like losing that match might have. I really enjoyed the matches. </div></div>

I just don't see sharking as being an issue at the level these guys play. It seems beneath them and likely not to work anyway because they are professional and experienced. It has more acceptance and a better chance of working at the amateur hustler level.

But, I have seen a video where Archer accused Strickland of it, saying the only way Earl can beat anybody is by sharking them. Go figure...just raw emotions like with the ESPN match.

Eric.
07-22-2008, 08:59 AM
I'd like to give Archer the benefit of the doubt, but...

He's been in this situ before (ref'd match/tv match). He is a seasoned pro that should have known better.


Eric

Deeman3
07-22-2008, 12:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a hard one to call. I guess both sides have points but it is good that, in the end, Ronnie prevailed. At least it won't eat on him like losing that match might have. I really enjoyed the matches. </div></div>

I just don't see sharking as being an issue at the level these guys play. It seems beneath them and likely not to work anyway because they are professional and experienced. It has more acceptance and a better chance of working at the amateur hustler level.

But, I have seen a video where Archer accused Strickland of it, saying the only way Earl can beat anybody is by sharking them. Go figure...just raw emotions like with the ESPN match. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Sadly, sharking does occur in professional pool, much of it less pronounced than you see in your league play. As much as I like Earl, Johnny probably had it right. There may be a fine line between intimidation and sharking but most of us know what it is when we see it. I, like most of you, want to give Archer the benefit of the doubt as I don't think we have seen a pattern here. </span>

Wally_in_Cincy
07-22-2008, 03:13 PM
[quote=skinI just don't see sharking as being an issue at the level these guys play. It seems beneath them and likely not to work anyway because they are professional and experienced. [/quote]

You would be surprised then. It happens plenty, but it's a small percentage of players who engage in it. As in most sports or most walks of life, 5% of the people cause 95% of the problems.

pooltchr
07-22-2008, 06:42 PM
Hasn't Johnny been traveling with Earl a lot lately? You don't think he's possibly learning from the master???

Steve