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Wally_in_Cincy
07-25-2008, 10:36 AM
Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

pooltchr
07-25-2008, 06:22 PM
But, Wally...it's FREE!!!!!!!!!!

I'm afraid we may all get to find out first hand, but it will be too late to do anything about it.

Steve

Qtec
07-25-2008, 09:09 PM
From your link.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if Canadians are looking to the United States for the care they need, Americans, ironically, are increasingly looking north for a viable health-care model. There’s no question that American health care, a mixture of private insurance and public programs, is a mess. Over the last five years, health-insurance premiums have more than doubled, leaving firms like General Motors on the brink of bankruptcy. Expensive health care has also hit workers in the pocketbook: it’s one of the reasons that median family income fell between 2000 and 2005 (despite a rise in overall labor costs). Health spending has surged past 16 percent of GDP. The number of uninsured Americans has risen, and even the insured seem dissatisfied. So it’s not surprising that some Americans think that solving the nation’s health-care woes may require adopting a Canadian-style single-payer system, in which the government finances and provides the care. Canadians, the seductive single-payer tune goes, not only spend less on health care; their health outcomes are better, too—life expectancy is longer, infant mortality lower. </div></div>

There is no perfect system but when you have 47 million Americans who have no insurance at all, when people are refused help at hospitals and sent somewhere else, when people are dumped [ still in their hospital gowns] on the street, when its the insurance company thst decides whether you can have that life saving brain surgery etc ........?

American health insurance companys are in this buisness to make money, ie the less they spend , the more profit they make. Is that good news for the consumer?

BTW, link (http://www.fool.com/investing/high-growth/2008/06/04/erbituxs-deceptively-disappointing-results.aspx)

Q

sack316
07-25-2008, 11:12 PM
Q, no doubt our system is not perfect or anywhere close to it. But I also feel it would only be worse run under government care. I can't recall where I read or saw it, but there was something about how the postal service is the government agency that we Americans have the most faith in. The post office! Kudos to those people who do one helluva hard job, but even that's a joke.

I'm all for tweaking the system, and finding ways to make it better. But going to an oppisite extreme is not something I'd be OK with. I can just picture going to my private practice doctor, who I have known since I was about 6 years old, and having to wait days. Even worse, someone such as himself leaving to join a hospital because he can't make enough for his practice to be worthwhile. Granted those are theories and perhaps outlandish worries, but I don't feel it's entirely impossible.

Sure, I agree american health insurance companies are out there to make money. But what seems to get lost in the shuffle is that under government control, it's left in the hands of what has become the biggest of big business in this country. Why do we have some of the best doctors from the world over coming here? Because they can get rich doing it. Take that away and see what would happen.

Don't get me wrong, a universal healthcare system may even work like a charm for a while. But (and the lefties may love this part), what about the generations ahead? What about when the brilliant mind decides it's better for his future to study law rather than medicine? What if the whole system turns into one large HMO?

Why do insurance premiums get so high? because of frivilous claims, fraud, etc... all the things we pay for that other people do wrong. Eventually we'd be paying pully into a system where anyone has that opportunity.

I'd really be OK with some kind of universal healthcare system... I think it's a wonderful idea on paper. I'd just love to be able to see some evidence that it wouldn't wind up like welfare or social security first.

Sack

wolfdancer
07-26-2008, 02:53 AM
Maybe we can euthanize the folks that can't afford health ins.like say Wal Mart employees, all 1.3 million of them ( the #1 private employer )
Northern Nevada has a great managed health car system for seniors.
It's so good, and so affordable that I believe it must be subsidized by ....the counties???
It's an example (to me) of what health care could be, should be....
And, no it ain't free Steve, the cost comes out of someone's pocket, probably just some hard working republican, since Wally believes that the "libs" are all on public assistance....nothing is free

LWW
07-26-2008, 04:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe we can euthanize the folks that can't afford health ins.like say Wal Mart employees, all 1.3 million of them ( the #1 private employer )</div></div>
You mean like they do in Europe ... and Canada.

LWW

Vapros
07-26-2008, 07:58 AM
Of course the insurance companies are in it to make money. I thought everybody knew that. The government certainly would not show a profit if they ran it, but that's no indication that they would do it any better. To the contrary.

Forty-plus years ago, when Medicare and Medicaid were new, and bills for national health insurance were in the Congressional hopper, I took part in the preparation of a detailed report on the British National Health Service for the Louisiana State Medical Society, and there were a lot of horror stories. Fully-clothed physical exams, medicines prescribed and ordered by receptionists and long, long waits for elective surgical procedures.

The British, who by then were inured to the gigantic tax load for such programs, nearly all said the system was great, but most of them believed they had had the hard luck to be assigned to bad doctors. In the United States, it was just the opposite. People hated the expensive system, but loved their own doctors.

We discovered that the doctors were paid something like 2% of the annual taxes collected for their work. The equivalent of one week's assessment. The frequent tax increases always resulted in more bureaucracy, but never more medical care.

Their one crowning achievement, at that time, was the CAT-scan machine, which was developed in the NHS. But there were only two of them in use for the entire UK! Having invented the thing, they had no money to buy them.

Anyway, let's not let the government have this thing. I would rather see the syndicate in charge. They might steal a lot of it, but the bureaucracy would be controlled. They have ways.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-26-2008, 01:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



There is no perfect system but when you have 47 million Americans who have no insurance at all, when people are refused help at hospitals and sent somewhere else, when people are dumped [ still in their hospital gowns] on the street, </div></div>

You have swallowed the liberal propaganda it seems.

What if you had gotten sick or injured when you were over here? Do you think you would have been turned away? Of course not.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-26-2008, 01:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vapros</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I took part in the preparation of a detailed report on the British National Health Service for the Louisiana State Medical Society, and there were a lot of horror stories. Fully-clothed physical exams, medicines prescribed and ordered by receptionists and long, long waits for elective surgical procedures.

</div></div>

There's another forum I frequent that has many Brits on it. A lady in St. Louis recently incurred 3 herniated discs on a Saturday. She had an MRI on Tuesday, surgery on Friday and was home rehabbing by Monday.

A fellow from Liverpool wrote that had she been under the NHS she would have waited 14 months for the surgery.

wolfdancer
07-26-2008, 02:10 PM
No, like someone should have done to you as an infant...( there is SOME justification after all, for infanticide )

LWW
07-26-2008, 02:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wally_in_Cincy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



There is no perfect system but when you have 47 million Americans who have no insurance at all, when people are refused help at hospitals and sent somewhere else, when people are dumped [ still in their hospital gowns] on the street, </div></div>

You have swallowed the liberal propaganda it seems.

What if you had gotten sick or injured when you were over here? Do you think you would have been turned away? Of course not. </div></div>
Modern liberalism cannot continue without propaganda.

LWW

LWW
07-26-2008, 02:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, like someone should have done to you as an infant...( there is SOME justification after all, for infanticide ) </div></div>
Spoken like a true passive aggressive moonbat.

LWW

Qtec
07-26-2008, 08:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wally_in_Cincy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



There is no perfect system but when you have 47 million Americans who have no insurance at all, when people are refused help at hospitals and sent somewhere else, when people are dumped [ still in their hospital gowns] on the street, </div></div>

You have swallowed the liberal propaganda it seems.

What if you had gotten sick or injured when you were over here? Do you think you would have been turned away? Of course not. </div></div>

So people who can't pay are not dumped on the street?

video (http://usatoday.feedroom.com/index.jsp?fr_story=FEEDROOM167442)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOS ANGELES (AP) — In an unprecedented crackdown on a practice experts say is shamefully common around the country, prosecutors accused a major hospital chain Thursday of ridding itself of a homeless patient by dumping her on crime-plagued Skid Row.

A surveillance camera at a rescue mission recorded the demented 63-year-old woman wandering around the streets in a hospital gown and slippers last March. </div></div> link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-11-16-kaiser_x.htm)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A paraplegic man wearing a soiled hospital gown and a broken colostomy bag was found crawling in a gutter in skid row in Los Angeles on Thursday after allegedly being dumped in the street by a Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center van, police said.

The incident, witnessed by more than two dozen people, was described by police as a particularly outrageous case of "homeless dumping" that has plagued the downtown area.

"I can't think of anything colder than that," said LAPD Det. Russ Long, who called the case the most egregious of its kind that he has seen in his career. "There was no mission around, no services. It's the worst area of skid row."

Los Angeles Police Department detectives said they connected the van to Hollywood Presbyterian after witnesses wrote down a phone number on the van and took down its license-plate number.

They are questioning officials from the hospital, which the LAPD had accused in an earlier dumping case that is now under investigation. ...

Los Angeles officials have accused more than a dozen hospitals, as well as some outside law enforcement agencies, of dumping patients and criminals on skid row. </div></div>

disgrace (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/02/la_hospital_all.html)
Open your eyes. You are the one swallowing the propaganda.


Q

DickLeonard
07-27-2008, 11:22 AM
Pooltchr my daughters cancer drug is being tested in humans. I will keep everyone apprised of its success or failure. None for Lww though, she is a confirmed Liberal.####

Wally_in_Cincy
07-27-2008, 08:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



So people who can't pay are not dumped on the street?

</div></div>

I did not watch the links.

That's 2 out of 43 million.

Good job Q

Keep trying.

P.S. would those people have ben euthanized in Holland?

Qtec
07-27-2008, 08:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I did not watch the links.</div></div>

Then WHY are you even replying????????
Too much bother for you to click with your finger links that I went to all the trouble of of finding just to show you why I think what I think?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not watch the links.

That's 2 out of 43 million.

Good job Q

Keep trying.

P.S. would those people have ben euthanized in Holland? </div></div>

So dumping people on Skid Row is OK with you?


Q.............. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

eg8r
07-28-2008, 07:59 AM
Open your eyes Q. Let me know if you find any articles explaining all the long lines in the emergency rooms due to people getting free health care. Next time you are here, and are not looking for one off examples on the internet, why don't walk through the emergency room at the hospital and count all the kids that are there because they have a cold and need assistance.

You BS lies about people being turned away, as the norm, are ridiculous and a slap in the face of every doctor, nurse, etc here in the US.

eg8r

eg8r
07-28-2008, 08:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So dumping people on Skid Row is OK with you?</div></div>Instead of asking Wally, why don't you take a walk down skid row and ask them if they prefer the help they are already receiving or if they would prefer to be euthanized.

eg8r

Deeman3
07-28-2008, 08:54 AM
Did anyone see the National Public Radio picture of the two "starving" ladies they featured last week. Unfortuantely, no one at NPR bothered to screen the photo and both were over 400 lbs. while staring to death. The argument now is that poor folks have enough food it is just the wrong kind, KFC, MCDonalds, etc.

I guess skid row has changed a little over time.

Qtec
07-28-2008, 10:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Open your eyes Q. Let me know if you find any articles explaining all the long lines in the emergency rooms due to people getting free health care. Next time you are here, and are not looking for one off examples on the internet, why don't walk through the emergency room at the hospital and count all the kids that are there because they have a cold and need assistance.

You BS lies about people being turned away, as the norm, are ridiculous and a slap in the face of every doctor, nurse, etc here in the US.

eg8r </div></div>


Thats funny because just today.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Uninsured left in the lurch
Thousands pour into SW Va. this weekend seeking free health careTeresa Gardner said the RAM event is vitally important.

link (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-07-27-0204.html)

Gardner is executive director of The Health Wagon, a nonprofit organization that provides health care for the uninsured and underinsured in Southwest Virginia. It is the local organizer for the RAM event.

"The main problem is that these people don't have access to even the most basic health care because they can't afford it," she said. "And those that can afford the insurance, or get it through their companies, can't afford to pay the co-pays or the prescriptions."

According to the figures released this year by the U.S. Department of Commerce's Bureau of Economic Analysis, per-capita personal income in Wise County is $25,330. That's about $14,000 less than the state average and several thousand less than in the Richmond area. The U.S. personal per capita income is $36,714.

A study by the Southwest Virginia Graduate Medical Education Consortium paints a bleak picture about health in this part of the state. In the study, Southwest Virginia is defined as the 16-locality area between and including Lee County to the west and Bland, Wythe and Carroll counties to the east.

The study found that people living in the region are 26 percent more likely to die from heart disease, 52 percent more likely to die from pneumonia or flu and 28 percent more likely to die from diabetes than other Virginians.

About 25 percent of the area's residents have no health insurance.

Dr. Ross Isaacs of Charlottesville said numbers such as those are frustrating because most maladies are treatable if caught early enough. Isaacs, who specializes in kidney disease, said something as simple as monitoring blood pressure can help stop most of what ails people and increase life expectancy.

"These people urgently need treatment," he said, getting visibly angry. "We need to put our resources into fighting" to get people adequate health care in the region.

"This is what we do -- we take care of people," Isaac said. "There isn't a cash register between me and my stethoscope, nor should there be."</div></div>

Its the equivalent of the soup kitches from the 1930s. The richest country on the planet cannot provide basic healthcare for its poorest citizens.

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
07-28-2008, 10:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> About 25 percent of the area's residents have no health insurance.</div></div>

Sorry little buddy. That dog don't hunt.

You cite an example from the deepest depths of Appalachia, where dysfunction is a way of life. Most of those folks that don't have health insurance either don't want to work, don't want to get educated, don't want to move to where the jobs are, and can't get on SS Disability or Medicaid.

eg8r
07-28-2008, 01:17 PM
I guess you did not read my post.

eg8r

Vapros
07-28-2008, 03:07 PM
To get an idea of how such state-operated programs would work, just imagine if air travel were funded by taxes, and then became 'free' for everybody. Would they all want to fly every weekend? Damrite.

It would be like an 'all you can eat' cafe where you pay in advance, after which there's no limit. Even now, with so many people on Medicaid, just try to get into the emergency room some evening. It's packed with people who had something better to do in the daytime. That's their idea of an emergency, and why not? Kids with runny noses, people with sore feet, or wanting their flu shots. To them, medical care is free. Once you've paid for it, be sure to get your share. Ask the British.

wolfdancer
07-29-2008, 04:21 PM
Dave Syrja, a former member here, now deceased, ... made a few bucks with a couple of internet start ups of his, retired and moved back to Canada, and was not too impressed with their health care. He related a few stories in some PMs that he sent me.
I don't know any seniors that want to waste their day in an emergency ward....there is a co-pay, and an $$ limitation on medicare. I have medicare, and I'd rather be out playing golf
There is a growing crisis that I have read about, especially in the border states. People are crossing illegally to get free med care....emergency rooms "can't" turn them down...then they head back across the border. In the other states, I'd venture to guess it's more illegals, and just plain poor folks....with medicare recipients making up a small portion of the waiting hordes.....but I'm sure the anti-medicare crowd would rather believe otherwise

Wally_in_Cincy
07-30-2008, 06:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

.....but I'm sure the anti-medicare crowd would rather believe otherwise </div></div>

I really don't know anybody who is anti-Medicare. Perhaps I did not understand your point.

And you are right, many hospitals in border states lose gobs of money servicing illegals. They have to be reimbursed from the state or the feds, or they simply close down. Congress authorizes billions every year to make up the difference.

eg8r
07-30-2008, 07:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a growing crisis that I have read about, especially in the border states. People are crossing illegally to get free med care....emergency rooms "can't" turn them down...then they head back across the border. In the other states, I'd venture to guess it's more illegals, and just plain poor folks....with medicare recipients making up a small portion of the waiting hordes.....but I'm sure the anti-medicare crowd would rather believe otherwise
</div></div>Don't let Q read this from you, he believes if you don't have insurance you get zero healthcare.

eg8r

DickLeonard
08-04-2008, 05:53 PM
Wolfdancer I was away for a few days and just read your post on Dave Syrja. It got me remembering our lost posters. Dave,Chris Cass come to mind.

As to wasting your day in an emergency room I had two friends die of cancer in the Albany Va. The most degrading conditions, in an open room with 10 cots, both veterans of World War 11.

One was Andy Bakerian the player who put all nineballs in on the break and the other was Ralph Laurella who ran the poolroom in Hudson. Ralph was my backer and a great friend. I spent hours with him a the VA laughing about all the great times we had on the road. His wife told me after that he really enjoyed my visits, we really laughed about her getting arrested for bookmaking while we were in Conn shooting pool.

God Bless all the PoolPlayers.####

eg8r
08-04-2008, 07:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The most degrading conditions, in an open room with 10 cots, both veterans of World War 11.
</div></div> WORLD WAR 11!!! When did WW 3 through 10 happen? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Just kidding. How about more stories about these two guys?

eg8r

DickLeonard
08-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Eg8r I will fill you up this week, starting tomorrow. It is a lot better reading pool stories than LWW one line posts.####

Wally_in_Cincy
08-06-2008, 06:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


As to wasting your day in an emergency room I had two friends die of cancer in the Albany VA. The most degrading conditions, in an open room with 10 cots, both veterans of World War 11.

</div></div>

Is that what we can expect from nationalized health care, using the VA as a starting point?

eg8r
08-06-2008, 07:15 AM
I agree. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

Deeman3
08-06-2008, 07:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wally_in_Cincy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


As to wasting your day in an emergency room I had two friends die of cancer in the Albany VA. The most degrading conditions, in an open room with 10 cots, both veterans of World War 11.

</div></div>

Is that what we can expect from nationalized health care, using the VA as a starting point? </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Wally,

I was thinking just that! Isn't VA a preview of another form of government healthcare on a much bigger and disasterous scale? </span>

sack316
08-06-2008, 11:14 PM
do you think we'll even get cots? My guess is hard folding chairs and expired issues of Time magazine... the one with Obama on the cover.

Sack

DickLeonard
08-08-2008, 07:33 AM
Wally in Cincy That was one of the most sickening experience of my life visiting the VAs Death Ward.####