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Mason King
07-31-2008, 07:26 PM
Hey everybody:

Mason King, BD managing editor, here. I have a very sensitive issue to discuss, and I hope you'll give me some feedback: I'm considering changing the Forum software, going from the current vendor, UBB.threads, to the much more common, user-friendly and versatile VBulletin.

You probably remember back in February when we updated the UBB.threads software and the whole look and functionality of the Forums changed. Believe me, we needed to update the software. It was Flintstones-era stuff, and it was so out of date that the Forums started crashing a lot. Unfortunately, the change was much more severe than I expected — both in the look of the Forums and the changes in features. Some folks weren't too pleased, and I humbly apologize.

So, I've learned my lesson. I don't want to spring anything on our longtime posters without their input and some lead time.

As for switching to VBulletin, I'm told by our Webmaster that we will maintain all existing users, passwords, threads, messages, and private messages. You won't have to do anything. Just enjoy a more user-friendly experience. As far as appearance, we'll have a couple different styles to choose from — with a real premium placed on legibility. As far as functions, well — if you've done any posting outside of the Cue Chalk Board lately, you were probably using VBulletin. It's what happening, the premiere package, for now.

Here's a link that will show what VBulletin is offering in terms of features:

http://www.vbulletin.com/features.php

So, a few questions:

• Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?

• What features do you want to see that we don't have right now? (BTW: The search function will be fixed by the end of next week, regardless of whether we switch to VBulletins or not.) What do you want to make sure that we have?

• Would you like to see some more "sub-forums" like sections dedicated to "for sale" items, or particular games, or instruction, etc.?

• Do you foresee any red flags in switching over to a new program?

• Anything else on your mind?

OK, let me know what you think. I'm all ears.

Thanks,

Mason

sack316
07-31-2008, 10:34 PM
First of all, thanks for asking for some user input on this!

• Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?

I don't think it needs to change, really. Most of us veterans here are just getting used to this upgrade. A change to v-bulletin is a pretty significant difference in workings. Besides, the "newer" thing isn't always better (ask any windows user he he... I'm included in that, though). But for our purposes here and what we tend to do, this format pretty well suffices... and any v-bulletin board I've gone to doesn't strike me as any better, or any more functional

• What features do you want to see that we don't have right now? (BTW: The search function will be fixed by the end of next week, regardless of whether we switch to VBulletins or not.) What do you want to make sure that we have?

Obviously getting the search working is big, as you mentioned. Also in talking with newer members, a way to link to an image for a user avatar would be very useful. Scrap the shout box. Also maybe include an option to creat a poll within a thread. I think those of us who frequent the NPR side would use that fairly often. I know there's some more, but that's what I can think of right now.

• Would you like to see some more "sub-forums" like sections dedicated to "for sale" items, or particular games, or instruction, etc.?

I don't think the traffic and amount of posting is enough to warrant more sub-forums. It's not that I think it would be a bad thing per say, I just don't see a need for splitting things up any more given the current state. If volume increases (as we hope it will, of course) that may be an idea to revisit later on. But right now I think all the topics are easily navigatable in the current format.

• Do you foresee any red flags in switching over to a new program?

Nothing other than it is a change, and change is always uncomfortable for some. I think it comes down to is it better for you guys as well? Will it be cheaper and easier to maintain? Because as far as functionality and useability from the user perspective, I don't see much potential gain in a changeover. Some may disagree, JMHO.

• Anything else on your mind?

Nah, but thanks for asking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


Sack

Rich R.
08-01-2008, 07:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, a few questions:

• Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't mind change. The main problem with the last change was it was not tested properly and the forum didn't work properly for a while. We also lost a lot of PM's that were saved.

As for the vBulletin software, I use it on several other forums. Although it does a lot of different things, I'm not so sure it is user friendly. I happen to think simple is better. New, with a lot of options, is not necessarily an improvement. JMHO. </span>

• What features do you want to see that we don't have right now? (BTW: The search function will be fixed by the end of next week, regardless of whether we switch to VBulletins or not.) What do you want to make sure that we have?
<span style="color: #FF0000">As for me, I am only looking for a forum that works properly, with no problems. I can deal with almost any format that is chosen. </span>

• Would you like to see some more "sub-forums" like sections dedicated to "for sale" items, or particular games, or instruction, etc.?
<span style="color: #FF0000">Again, on other forums, I have experience with the "sub-forums" and I'm not crazy about them. I would prefer to check one forum for all pool related information. It is quicker and easier than going in and out of different sub-forums.
If you want a non-pool related forum, etc. as you do now, that is not a problem. I just suggest you keep the number of forums to a minimum.</span>

• Do you foresee any red flags in switching over to a new program?
<span style="color: #FF0000">The only red flag I see is releasing it before it is tested and working properly. In time, we will all adapt, if the forum is working properly. If it is not working, you will lose many readers. </span>

• Anything else on your mind?
<span style="color: #FF0000">It is common knowledge who the web master is for this forum. I just hope you don't make this forum a clone of his forum. I think that would be a mistake. JMHO. </span>

OK, let me know what you think. I'm all ears.

Thanks,

Mason </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">Thank you for asking for our input. Whether you listen to us or not, it is still nice to be asked. </span>

JoeW
08-01-2008, 07:47 AM
Thanks for asking.

I do not see a need for change and tend to agree with the above.

This board has its own style and that is something worth considering.

I have written commercial software and can state that change is always difficult no matter how good the software. The reason for change needs serious consideration as the dance is always one step back and two steps forward.

BTW, the sidebar is useful. These old eyes like a larger font than some of the younger people and with the sidebar I can enlarge and not lose the content window.

God knows I am not anti-change. I have learned that there needs to be good reason for the "aggravation" it causes users.

Your current approach is a good one. In the 1980s we found the best way to initiate a state wide change wass to have users use the system for one month and provide feedback on everthing that was wrong. There was a guarentee that we would return to the original system if the majority wanted to revert. This approach worked so well tht there was strong support for the "new" way. I don't know how I would do it with a board but I would use something like this approach.

Seems funny that when users help with the change they become committed to it.

Eric.
08-01-2008, 07:48 AM
Mason,

Just to weigh in, I don't see any problem with the current set up. It's not that I'm against change. I'm all for change, if change is a definite improvement. I'm not sure if taht would be the case.

One feature I think would be nice is the ability to upload pictures to this website and inserting them into our posts. I think we currently have to host the pics elsewhere and hotlink it here.


Eric &gt;and some scantily clad women would be nice too

Mason King
08-01-2008, 08:26 AM
Thanks, Eric. Good to know. We'll look into uploading pictures. We're also investigating uploading pool table diagrams.

Mason King
08-01-2008, 08:36 AM
Also, thanks to Joe, Rich & Sack.

I'll keep monitoring your input, but I have to get the September issue to the printer here in the next couple of days, so I won't be able to address everybody individually. But I'm definitely paying attention.

Thanks. - Mason

JayBaltimore
08-01-2008, 10:15 AM
v-bulletin is most affective and easiest to use and see in my opinion

Eric.
08-01-2008, 10:20 AM
Oh shyte...

Nice to see ya posting here too, JB!


Eric &gt;fellow CHAT slacker

jondrums
08-01-2008, 12:37 PM
I think the current format works fine. Without making a judgmental about whether they are important, here are some features that _seem_ to be lacking, based on my experience with other forums:

-compatibility with cuetable diagrams
-hover over thread title shows preview of first message
-ability to create polls

I must admit, I really like that when I log in, I can quickly see how many messages in each thread I have not yet read, and furthermore when I click on the thread, it sends me to the newest message. This is a very nice feature!

Jon

dr_dave
08-01-2008, 01:18 PM
Mason,

Thank you for asking for our input.

Here are the complaints I have with the current software:

- The keyword search tool does not work. This is a serious problem.

- The folder icons in threaded view are not working properly. An individual icon should be white when a posting has been read before, and it should be yellow when a posting has not been read yet. Without this functionality, it is very difficult to follow and revisit a thread efficiently. The folder icons do work in the forum view listing the threads, but not a thread's view listing all of the posts in threaded mode.

- The right column containing "Who's Online," "Top Posters," "Shout Box," and "Forum Stats" is not very useful to most people. It would be nice if this stuff could be optionally hidden to make more room for the content column.

- All links to previous postings (e.g., when the original software was running) no longer work. This is only a minor problem for most people, but I had a webpage with many links to past postings. The webpage, which represented countless hours of work on my part, was rendered useless when the software was "upgraded."


As for switching to another "new" system, I'm all for it if the transition is smooth, if some of the lost functionality returns, if the new system is stable, user-friendly and easy to use, and if there are important reasons for changing. It seems most people are OK with the current system, but people generally resist change. Could you summarize some of the main reasons why you want to switch? That might help people better understand why the change is important.

Regards,
Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey everybody:

Mason King, BD managing editor, here. I have a very sensitive issue to discuss, and I hope you'll give me some feedback: I'm considering changing the Forum software, going from the current vendor, UBB.threads, to the much more common, user-friendly and versatile VBulletin.

You probably remember back in February when we updated the UBB.threads software and the whole look and functionality of the Forums changed. Believe me, we needed to update the software. It was Flintstones-era stuff, and it was so out of date that the Forums started crashing a lot. Unfortunately, the change was much more severe than I expected — both in the look of the Forums and the changes in features. Some folks weren't too pleased, and I humbly apologize.

So, I've learned my lesson. I don't want to spring anything on our longtime posters without their input and some lead time.

As for switching to VBulletin, I'm told by our Webmaster that we will maintain all existing users, passwords, threads, messages, and private messages. You won't have to do anything. Just enjoy a more user-friendly experience. As far as appearance, we'll have a couple different styles to choose from — with a real premium placed on legibility. As far as functions, well — if you've done any posting outside of the Cue Chalk Board lately, you were probably using VBulletin. It's what happening, the premiere package, for now.

Here's a link that will show what VBulletin is offering in terms of features:

http://www.vbulletin.com/features.php

So, a few questions:

• Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?

• What features do you want to see that we don't have right now? (BTW: The search function will be fixed by the end of next week, regardless of whether we switch to VBulletins or not.) What do you want to make sure that we have?

• Would you like to see some more "sub-forums" like sections dedicated to "for sale" items, or particular games, or instruction, etc.?

• Do you foresee any red flags in switching over to a new program?

• Anything else on your mind?

OK, let me know what you think. I'm all ears.

Thanks,

Mason </div></div>

Jal
08-01-2008, 05:16 PM
I hope you do decide to make the switch, though I have no earth-shattering reasons for wanting it. I've never really warmed up to the new appearance of the forum, and would prefer, as Dr. Dave indicated, to not have what I regard as clutter on the side crowding the main posts.

The current software does seemed to have fixed the frequent connection problems that occurred with the previous software, for which I am very grateful. But all-in-all, I would welcome a change.

Many thanks for asking us, whatever the outcome may be.

Jim

Rich R.
08-02-2008, 06:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One feature I think would be nice is the ability to upload pictures to this website and inserting them into our posts. I think we currently have to host the pics elsewhere and hotlink it here.

Eric &gt;and some scantily clad women would be nice too </div></div>

Eric, this is a great idea that slipped my mind when I first posted. Being able to post pictures directly is such a pleasure, rather than storing them on another site and then doing a hotlink. It would encourage me to post more pictures, that is for sure.

Also, the suggestion about the scantily clad women should not be overlooked. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
08-02-2008, 07:18 AM
Thanks for asking Mason. I think the decision to change or not to change should be based on a combination of forum user opinions and a cost-effectiveness analysis from a business perspective.

If the cost to make the change outweighs the benefits, then it isn't worth the change.

Does the new format require less maintenance? Are there more features that can be offered? What are the benefits to BD to make the change? Many posters, including myself, have had some difficulty when forums change. I remember not being able to post at all for awhile. Others as well. So what would make it worth it to consider going through that or something similar to that again?


Fran

DSAPOLIS
08-02-2008, 08:16 AM
I remember when Mike Howerton switched to the v-bulletin software- I believe that it was 2003) he lost the archive for the Azbilliards forum, and all of those posts disappeared - I am not sure if the same thing would happen today.

This forum used to be much more active than it is today. I'm not sure what caused the participation to drop so drastically here,but any change at all should increase the numbers -at least I would hope so.

I would be willing to post more in this forum if the forum software was updated and was easier to use.

JWasson
08-02-2008, 09:53 AM
I would like to see this messageboard set up on phpBB. It's the most user-friendly and the options are absolutely unlimited as to what can be added whenever you want. I've set up dozens of boards on phpBB. You could set it up any way you like, from a generic looking board such as this one to anyhting you could dream up. You could add anything you wanted at any time just by adding or changing a few scripts or a simple datase update. Although I think the older phpBB2 was much better than the newer phpBB3 version, both offer the best solutions in my opinion.. That's just MHO

JJFSTAR
08-02-2008, 11:14 AM
Mason,

I visit several boards and this is my favorite and here’s why. Besides being the most knowledgeable posters i.e... on other boards questions like after the break in 8 ball is the table still open are asked frequently. On this board everything about general pool is in one place so you don’t have to jump around into a lot of sub categories. That means less button pushing and mouse clicking.

I am with the others when they say dump the shout box, the idea was a good one but it just doesn’t get used for whatever reason. I think the reason is that there isn’t enough traffic here. I think the “who’s on” should stay it is just nice to know who’s making posts when I am.

I welcome a new look, the availability of bigger fonts, ability to upload pics, a poll option and neat little emoticons. So I would say add these features sure but if you do a lot of rearranging and restructuring people will get lost and irritated.

Thank you so much for asking for our input, if I had a hand clapping emoticon option I would put one at the end of this post because I like to be a little goofy.

eg8r
08-05-2008, 06:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?
</div></div> I think something has to change. I cannot stand the fact that when I leave the site and come back I cannot tell which posts are brand new. The folders are all defaulting yellow. If I view a thread, then go read other threads and come back to one, any new posts will be yellow and the rest white, however if I leave the site completely and come back everything defaults yellow.

The other thing is very minor yet it bugs me to no end. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Why on earth do you have duplicate "named" entries in the cookie trail at the top. When I am on the pool related side the cookie trail reads: Billiards Digest » Forums » Cue Chalk Board » Cue Chalk Board. Now what bothers me is two things... Forums and the first Cue Chalk Board go to exactly the same place except that the CCB has a second URL variable (c=2) which does not appear to do anything differently. The other thing is Cue Chalk Board is listed twice yet they go to completely different places. While it only takes a quick click to see where they go, this is a poor design. My suggestion is to remove the first CCB link.

eg8r

Eric.
08-11-2008, 09:25 AM
Amen, Jon.


Eric

1Time
08-12-2008, 04:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm considering changing the Forum software, going from the current vendor, UBB.threads, to the much more common, user-friendly and versatile VBulletin.</div></div>So the choice is between keep the current software or switch to VBulletin. That means no third option of software is being considered.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I've learned my lesson. I don't want to spring anything on our longtime posters without their input and some lead time.</div></div>I'm impressed. Some don't learn this after screwing it up and then do it again.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for switching to VBulletin, I'm told by our Webmaster that we will maintain all existing users, passwords, threads, messages, and private messages. You won't have to do anything. Just enjoy a more user-friendly experience. </div></div> And there's no reason to think the change would be any less than this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as appearance, we'll have a couple different styles to choose from — with a real premium placed on legibility. </div></div> Legibility or readability is obtained primarily from contrast - the difference between how bright the print is as compared to its darker background or how dark the print is as compared to its lighter background. As far as I know these colors can be modified with VBulletin for any styles is supports.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as functions, well — if you've done any posting outside of the Cue Chalk Board lately, you were probably using VBulletin. It's what happening, the premiere package, for now.</div></div>VBulletin is the software package of choice by the more popular boards.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?</div></div>This question is irrelevant to the growth of this board. Those who now frequent this board will prefer VBulletin and they aren't going anywhere whether you change the software or not. However, the board will grow more with VBulletin than it will if you keep the current software.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What features do you want to see that we don't have right now? (BTW: The search function will be fixed by the end of next week, regardless of whether we switch to VBulletins or not.) What do you want to make sure that we have?</div></div> "Advanced Search" of words of 3 or more characters. "Forum Search" by thread and post.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you like to see some more "sub-forums" like sections dedicated to "for sale" items, or particular games, or instruction, etc.?</div></div>Yes, this helps readers find what they want, which grows membership.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you foresee any red flags in switching over to a new program?</div></div>No.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">• Anything else on your mind?</div></div>Membership would grow more if the following were done. Put a "Sticky" thread at the top of each forum/sub-forum regarding the rules of conduct. Have the moderator proactively enforce those rules. Add a rule to encourage members to post on topic. This makes it much easier for readers to find the information they want and without having to wade through several off topic posts. Have the moderator move or delete these off topic posts. After you have decided on what the additional sub-forums may be, start a new thread stating what they are and ask for additional input and our review.

Rich R.
08-12-2008, 07:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you even want the forums to change? Is the current setup doing the trick for you?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This question is irrelevant to the growth of this board. Those who now frequent this board will prefer VBulletin and they aren't going anywhere whether you change the software or not. However, the board will grow more with VBulletin than it will if you keep the current software.</div></div>
1Time, I think you are taking a lot for granted in saying the current members will prefer VBulletin and won't go anywhere.

I am a long time member of this forum and what keeps me here is the people and the content, not the software.

Frankly, I have experience with VBulletin on other forums and I'm not crazy about it, but I can deal with it.

I also don't see any one particular software package being responsible for any forum growing or not. If the people respect each other and post good content, the forum will grow. It may not grow as large as some of the forums that allow a lot of trash talking, but I don't know if that type of growth is worth it.

Eric.
08-12-2008, 08:52 AM
Time for a poll?


Eric

heater451
08-13-2008, 06:13 PM
I actually preferred the Mesozoic board from previous times--and the current look 'n' feel is part of why I haven't visited in months.

The VBulletin look in similar to many other sites I've been to, and it's alright.

I vote for change (pardon, the seeming U.S. political affiliation).

wolfdancer
08-13-2008, 07:15 PM
We're just fortunate that we have a site where we can rant and rave
on one section, and maybe share some useful info on this side.
Nice to know that management is trying to get the best software to do the job, and asking for input from the regulars here.
i only have problems with the search function...everything else works fine.

1Time
08-15-2008, 12:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Time for a poll?


Eric </div></div>

Sure, here you go...

Who of you regulars to this board will leave and not return if the software changes to VBulletin?

1Time
08-15-2008, 01:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1Time, I think you are taking a lot for granted in saying the current members will prefer VBulletin and won't go anywhere.</div></div>Oh, really? Where they gonna go... AZBilliards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a long time member of this forum and what keeps me here is the people and the content, not the software. </div></div>OK, so like everyone else you're not going anywhere.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, I have experience with VBulletin on other forums and I'm not crazy about it, but I can deal with it.</div></div>You're in the minority. VBulletin is the most widely preferred software for boards today.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also don't see any one particular software package being responsible for any forum growing or not. If the people respect each other and post good content, the forum will grow. It may not grow as large as some of the forums that allow a lot of trash talking, but I don't know if that type of growth is worth it. </div></div>A more desirable software will help membership grow better than a less desirable software. That means it won't be entirely responsible for a forum's growth.

Rich R.
08-15-2008, 06:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1Time, I think you are taking a lot for granted in saying the current members will prefer VBulletin and won't go anywhere.</div></div>Oh, really? Where they gonna go... AZBilliards?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I didn't say they would go, you did. My point is, just because members stay doesn't mean they prefer the software.
Oh, BTW, AZB uses VBulletin, so that would not be the place to go, if you don't like that software. IMHO, they have made a mess of AZB, with all of the sub-forums. I realize that is not the fault of the software, but how it is being used. However, when too many options are available to the web master, the temptation to use those options is great. </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a long time member of this forum and what keeps me here is the people and the content, not the software. </div></div>OK, so like everyone else you're not going anywhere.
<span style="color: #FF0000">You can't take that for granted. This forum has lost many members, over the last few years. You really don't know who will be the next to leave.
If you must know, I check this forum less than I did in the past and I frequent another forum more often. Surprise, that forum doesn't use VBulletin and that forum is growing consistently. </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, I have experience with VBulletin on other forums and I'm not crazy about it, but I can deal with it.</div></div>You're in the minority. VBulletin is the most widely preferred software for boards today.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Just how do you know I'm in the minority? What are you basing this on? VBulletin may be the most widely used software for boards today, but that only means it is the software most preferred by web masters, not necessarily the members. </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also don't see any one particular software package being responsible for any forum growing or not. If the people respect each other and post good content, the forum will grow. It may not grow as large as some of the forums that allow a lot of trash talking, but I don't know if that type of growth is worth it. </div></div>A more desirable software will help membership grow better than a less desirable software. That means it won't be entirely responsible for a forum's growth. </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">I agree. Software isn't entirely responsible for a forum's growth, or its demise.

Whether its the current software, VBullitin or some other software, I think most forum members only want a software that works, is not too complicated and has a minimum of problems. I don't think most people are attracted to a forum because of the software, just as most are not chased away because of the software.</span>

1Time
08-15-2008, 09:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't say they would go, you did. My point is, just because members stay doesn't mean they prefer the software.
Oh, BTW, AZB uses VBulletin, so that would not be the place to go, if you don't like that software. IMHO, they have made a mess of AZB, with all of the sub-forums. I realize that is not the fault of the software, but how it is being used. However, when too many options are available to the web master, the temptation to use those options is great. </div></div>I have not followed AZB close enough to notice any problems or that they used VBulletin. Any time I've used it, I had no problems. Did you happen to notice in an earlier post of mine, that I suggested we be given the names of the forums/subforums that were being considered so we may review them and provide input? That's to help them not screw this one up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't take that for granted. This forum has lost many members, over the last few years. You really don't know who will be the next to leave.
If you must know, I check this forum less than I did in the past and I frequent another forum more often. Surprise, that forum doesn't use VBulletin and that forum is growing consistently. </div></div>Better software is one factor that can contribute to a forum's growth. Other factors like inadequate moderation can offset the benefit of that one factor.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just how do you know I'm in the minority? What are you basing this on? VBulletin may be the most widely used software for boards today, but that only means it is the software most preferred by web masters, not necessarily the members. </div></div>Economics.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. Software isn't entirely responsible for a forum's growth, or its demise.

Whether its the current software, VBullitin or some other software, I think most forum members only want a software that works, is not too complicated and has a minimum of problems. I don't think most people are attracted to a forum because of the software, just as most are not chased away because of the software.</div></div>OK

Rich R.
08-15-2008, 09:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't take that for granted. This forum has lost many members, over the last few years. You really don't know who will be the next to leave.
If you must know, I check this forum less than I did in the past and I frequent another forum more often. Surprise, that forum doesn't use VBulletin and that forum is growing consistently. </div></div>Better software is one factor that can contribute to a forum's growth. Other factors like inadequate moderation can offset the benefit of that one factor.

<span style="color: #FF0000">A lot depends on what you consider "better".
Unfortunately, in the computer world, "better" usually means more complicated with way too many choices. As one of the many forum members who is not very computer savy, "better" to me would be the least complicated and the easiest to use. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just how do you know I'm in the minority? What are you basing this on? VBulletin may be the most widely used software for boards today, but that only means it is the software most preferred by web masters, not necessarily the members. </div></div>Economics.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Please explain. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. Software isn't entirely responsible for a forum's growth, or its demise.

Whether its the current software, VBullitin or some other software, I think most forum members only want a software that works, is not too complicated and has a minimum of problems. I don't think most people are attracted to a forum because of the software, just as most are not chased away because of the software.</div></div>OK </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">I'm glad we can aree on one point. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

In the end, I think we are all on the same side and we want the best for the forum. We just have different ideas of what it is best. </span>

1Time
08-15-2008, 10:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot depends on what you consider "better".
Unfortunately, in the computer world, "better" usually means more complicated with way too many choices. As one of the many forum members who is not very computer savy, "better" to me would be the least complicated and the easiest to use. </div></div>Better is the one that brings in the most money.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just how do you know I'm in the minority? What are you basing this on? VBulletin may be the most widely used software for boards today, but that only means it is the software most preferred by web masters, not necessarily the members. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Economics.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please explain. </div></div>
If you were in the majority, there would be greater demand for software other than VBulletin, and there is not. Instead, the demand is greater for VBulletin, which means you are in the minority. Software is chosen in an attempt to make a money, not to philanthropically cater to a minority. Please study some basic economics if you still don't understand, but please feel free to disagree if you do.

JoeW
08-15-2008, 12:00 PM
Inside every big software package is a small software package struggling to get out.

Make your software idiot proof and only an idiot will use it (or bomb it).

1Time
08-15-2008, 04:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Inside every big software package is a small software package struggling to get out.</div></div>And with every small software package are a bunch of users wishing it did more.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make your software idiot proof and only an idiot will use it (or bomb it). </div></div>No, the problem with making software idiot proof is someone will just make a better idiot.

Rich R.
08-15-2008, 07:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you were in the majority, there would be greater demand for software other than VBulletin, and there is not. Instead, the demand is greater for VBulletin, which means you are in the minority. Software is chosen in an attempt to make a money, not to philanthropically cater to a minority. Please study some basic economics if you still don't understand, but please feel free to disagree if you do. </div></div>

Basic economics have no bearing on this discussion. Basic economics is supply vs demand and how it determines the price for a product. We are discussing forum software and whether or not it contributes to the growth of a forum. Forum members have no say in what software is chosen by the web master and they are not demanding any particular software. Also, they do not directly pay a dime toward the cost of the software. Web masters choose the software and it is directly paid for by the owners of the forum and indirectly by advertisers. Forum members only pay, indirectly, if they place an order with the advertisers. This discussion is not basic economics in any way.

I guess I'm just not as smart as you, but I still don't understand how you determine that the forum members are demanding VBulletin and not other software. All I can see is that web masters are choosing VBulletin over other software. Most forum users have no idea what software packages are available and they only want a package that works for them. They don't demand anything and they learn to use whatever software is chosen for the forum. For all I know, web masters could be choosing VBulletin for many reasons that have nothing to do with the forum members. Mainly, it could be easier for them to set up and maintain.

I can see that we will not be agreeing on this topic. You believe people are demanding VBulletin and I think people just want a format that is simple to work and problem free. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm done with this discussion. Feel free to have the last word.

JoeW
08-16-2008, 09:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time
[quote=JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make your software idiot proof and only an idiot will use it (or bomb it). </div></div>No, the problem with making software idiot proof is someone will just make a better idiot.

Yes that is what I was trying to remember. If you consider the irony and the reality of that statement it is interesting.