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JJFSTAR
08-12-2008, 11:17 AM
In another thread a new topic started to form and the question came up “When should someone start learning english?” The discussion differentiated about whether or not the individual was receiving instruction.

For me the question is easily answered. Whenever you decide you want to play better pool you should start learning english. I do not see the logic in withholding that information from anyone or suspending its use until one has reached a certain skill level if they are being self taught.

Maybe I am incorrect for a simple reason that I do not understand. If someone came up to me and asked me when they should start to learn english I would tell them now. If someone asked me when they should start using english I would say whenever they become aware that it will make the shot or gaining position easier.

To measure this in terms of what they are able to perform doesn’t make much sense to me. I start teaching someone how a ball moves across a cloth the second day I am with them and on that day I tell them that it can be spinning to the right or left.

So am I crazy and do other teachers not talk about divergence from the vertical axis right away for some reason? Maybe I do not understand what exactly is being said in the other thread. But I read it a few times.

This makes me sound like a tipster but I am the opposite. My favorite shot is the soft, center ball and railess.

bsmutz
08-12-2008, 11:32 AM
I think most people recommend waiting to teach/use english as it adds complexity to the game. They feel it's better to learn what can be done with center ball, follow, and draw first, as well as seeing how the balls react off the rails without english. I'm far from being an expert, so my opinion on this is irrelevant.

JJFSTAR
08-12-2008, 11:53 AM
bsmutz yes of course your right but in the other thread someone said you should be able to run a certain number of balls before you start using English. But I am asking why one would put a time frame, number of balls someone is able to run or any other measurement in order to determine when they are ready to start learning and using English. So what would it matter if the person could run 2, 5, 10 or 100 balls or not?

MAC
08-12-2008, 12:54 PM
I started playing in a APA league in February I started and stayed a four throughout the first session. After our big city vegas qualifier I saw how well most of the other players shot and that they were always playing good position.

One of the "veteran" players if you will said "I didnt need to be using English". I didnt listen to him and now understand what to do in certain situations and I went from a SL4 to a SL6 in 7 weeks and have not lost a match this session and I have played almost all of the best players in our league. In my opinion the sooner you learn the better off you are.

I taught myself english by placing a paper towel on the table and shooting at balls and trying to leave the cueball on the paper towel.

PRQL8R
08-12-2008, 01:12 PM
I'm also in agreement with bmutz... In the High school where I taught I had organized a billiard club for the students there. In teaching them I found it to be far more effective, having them concentrate on basic mechanics and staying on the central axis until they showed some relative consistency in potting balls.

I of course talked to them and demonstrated the effects of applying side english but for them putting any side on the ball greatly complicated their ability to make shots and destroyed their confidence. There's no certain number of balls a person should be able to run before starting to work with spinning the ball it's more relative to the individual and their developing a sense of consistency and confidence in stringing a few shots together. Once they have that greater confidence in their ability to make balls the better they're able to deal with the adjustments in aim and speed necessary when you begin thinking beyond the initial shot. ...Bob

1Time
08-12-2008, 02:54 PM
Limiting cue ball contact along the center vertical axis is a great way to learn ball speed and angles. I don't recommend this as the best way to shoot pool, and the aiming system(s) that I do recommend often involve using English. I've known two good players who only attempted to shoot along the center of the cue ball on every shot. They could not be convinced to use English. I learned to shoot without English, but then I could barely run a rack, and I didn't start to get good until I started using English.

Pool lessons can dramatically speed up the process. I've not known anyone who learned pool from a book, but I'm sure some do. After wooping this guy for several games last week at 9ball, he told me he had a big book on how to shoot pool, hadn't used it, but was interested in learning. So I pointed out a couple of his most obvious flaws that needed to be addressed, but he was too resistant to change. Some people become so dependent on what they think works best for them that it keeps them from trying something new that could work better. And that's really OK if that's what they want.

It's tough to accurately determine when a person should begin using English if they are not getting instruction, really tough. It's hit and miss at best. But I find this fairly simple to determine when showing someone how to shoot. And without instruction, I'd rather error on the side of caution by blindly recommending a 15 ball run first. And think that was av84fun's intention as well with his 500 rack recommendation. At the very least such recommendations should prompt one to get instruction early on, which is the best first move that should be made, English or not.

DeadCrab
08-12-2008, 03:00 PM
I would see it as not only a question of "when", but also "how".

When: a)You realize it is needed to move the ball off the rail to gain the position you want. b) You understand the concept of throw, and want to try gearing english to offset it, and c) before you start banking with cut.

How: Personally, I think BHE is easier to learn, provided there is understanding of how to find and use the pivot point of the cue. Once there is confidence in shooting the cue ball reasonably accurately with BHE, the learning process can progress faster. Stick to high percentage shots at first, usually ones where the OB is close to the pocket and the CB-OB distance is less than half-table.

The short and direct answer to your question would probably be when they can beat the 3-ball ghost half the time, but not the 4-ball ghost.

Joe Tucker has a video on BHE, as well as combined FHE and BHE that is an excellent starting point.

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 08:53 PM
It's my opinion, as a professional instructor, that it's pointless to spend much time trying to learn how to apply sidespin, before you have a solid understanding, and a practical application, of what happens when you strike the CB on the vertical axis only. Follow and draw are what make the CB curve, not english. Once a student can demonstrate that they know and can use tangent line knowledge, they can begin experimenting with adding sidespin, for a different effect on the CB, after it hits a rail (since sidespin, on the horizontal axis, without top or bottom spin, has no effect on the tangent line until it hits a rail).

Scott Lee

Billy_Bob
08-12-2008, 09:43 PM
I think you should first learn to pocket balls without missing. THEN learn english. This way you will quickly see that using english can make the ball miss the pocket.

pooltchr
08-13-2008, 04:35 AM
I think you should learn english as soon as you come into the count......oops. sorry. I thought I was on the NPR side! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Steve

1Time
08-13-2008, 06:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Follow and draw are what make the CB curve, not english. </div></div>Are you sure you have this right? It seems to me that follow and draw (being on the cue ball's center vertical axis) make the cue ball go in a straight line, but any incidental or intentional side spin (English) during such shots makes the cue ball go off line and curve.

Bambu
08-13-2008, 06:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's my opinion, as a professional instructor, that it's pointless to spend much time trying to learn how to apply sidespin, before you have a solid understanding, and a practical application, of what happens when you strike the CB on the vertical axis only. Follow and draw are what make the CB curve, not english. Once a student can demonstrate that they know and can use tangent line knowledge, they can begin experimenting with adding sidespin, for a different effect on the CB, after it hits a rail (since sidespin, on the horizontal axis, without top or bottom spin, has no effect on the tangent line until it hits a rail).

Scott Lee</div></div>

I agree the vertical axis should be learned first. But Scott, how does follow and draw(and not english)make the cb curve?

Cornerman
08-13-2008, 08:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Follow and draw are what make the CB curve, not english. </div></div>Are you sure you have this right? It seems to me that follow and draw (being on the cue ball's center vertical axis) make the cue ball go in a straight line, but any incidental or intentional side spin (English) during such shots makes the cue ball go off line and curve. </div></div>

I have a bad feeling that you and Bambu are going to be on a completely different wavelength if you're not sure how follow or curve makes a ball curve.

Standard bending of the ball is due to the amount of follow or draw plus the direction the cueball was going. If you cut a ball to the right, the cueball goes to the left off of the tangent line. Follow will bend the path forward. Draw will bend the path back in a curve. Surely you both know this and will chalk it up as a temporary loss of wits and confusion of Scott's post.

English (sidespin) by itself has no effect on the path of the cueball on the bed of the table, unless the english is applied with an angled cue. I could point to all the torque and Coriolis references, but would it matter?

Fred

Cornerman
08-13-2008, 08:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another thread a new topic started to form and the question came up “When should someone start learning english?” The discussion differentiated about whether or not the individual was receiving instruction.

For me the question is easily answered. Whenever you decide you want to play better pool you should start learning english. I do not see the logic in withholding that information from anyone or suspending its use until one has reached a certain skill level if they are being self taught.
</div></div>I think you make a good point. But, it's a tricky situation, and maybe it really is individually based. I played a tournament last night where most of the players would be D players. Some, I think English would be good for them because the reason why they are D players is that they just don't know how to get to the next ball the easiest way. And in 9-ball, the easiest way is often with english. I don't know why people like to say that it's not. It is, and it is a lot of times. End of discussion.

OTOH, there are some of the other D players that their aim and stroke just isn't consistent enough. For them, they need to work on centerball veritical axis shots. And, if they can, get some quality help. English wouldn't help them.

But judging the two type of D players, neither of them has an advantage over the other. The good shooter that has no concept of English vs. the all-over-the-place shooter. The good shooter will get better by learning english (to your point). The-all-over-the-place shooter will get better by learning a stroke (to the instructors' point).

Fred

SpiderMan
08-13-2008, 09:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you should learn english as soon as you come into the count......oops. sorry. I thought I was on the NPR side! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Steve </div></div>

I thought the exact same thing when I saw the title - especially since "English" was misspelled. I expected a thread asking if someone should learn english in order to access training materials in this language.

SpiderMan

Bob_Jewett
08-13-2008, 10:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... how does follow and draw(and not english)make the cb curve? </div></div>
Side spin causes the cue ball to curve slightly (swerve) on the way to the object ball. Follow and draw cause the cue ball to curve away from the tangent line after striking the object ball. Follow and draw can also make the cue ball curve after striking a cushion.

Bob_Jewett
08-13-2008, 10:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another thread a new topic started to form and the question came up “When should someone start learning (side spin)?” The discussion differentiated about whether or not the individual was receiving instruction. ... </div></div>
As far as the basic knowledge part, I think it is important to discuss that before the beginner starts using side spin. I point out how the side spin can be useful but at the same time I show five major problems with using it: squirt, swerve, throw, miscues and cling/skid/kick/bad contacts, and some of the details of those problems. Most beginners do not fully understand those problems when first introduced to them, but I want them to be aware that problems exist.

Deeman3
08-13-2008, 10:22 AM
Bob,

You still going to put on the great 14.1 event at derby City in January? We all enjoy that very much as it has become a nice break from the tournament.

Bob_Jewett
08-13-2008, 10:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob,

You still going to put on the great 14.1 event at derby City in January? ... </div></div>
Yes, so far as I know right now.

DeadCrab
08-13-2008, 10:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I show five major problems with using it: squirt, swerve, throw, miscues and cling/skid/kick/bad contacts, and some of the details of those problems. Most beginners do not fully understand those problems when first introduced to them, but I want them to be aware that problems exist.</div></div>

Not trying to be a wise-guy, but is not "english" the most common cure for collision induced throw, rather than the cause?

Eric.
08-13-2008, 12:14 PM
I started in kindergarten.


Eric &gt;born here, second language

Bambu
08-13-2008, 04:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... how does follow and draw(and not english)make the cb curve? </div></div>
Side spin causes the cue ball to curve slightly (swerve) on the way to the object ball. Follow and draw cause the cue ball to curve away from the tangent line after striking the object ball. Follow and draw can also make the cue ball curve after striking a cushion.</div></div>

If I'm not mistaken, the bending away from the tangent only applies to cut shots. I thought he meant for a straight shot, but thanks Bob.

PRQL8R
08-13-2008, 05:37 PM
Scott I totally agree, and thats very much the way I tried to approach it with my kids. They're very self conscious about their skills... or lack of and quite likely to give up on themselves much too quickly if they become frustrated in their ability to see tangible progress.

Foremost I wanted them to have fun with the game and keeping it simple early on helped with that. As I saw them individually developing greater confidence and an understading of cueball actions and reactions not to mention the thought process behind shot selections, I introduced them to more advanced concepts. ...Bob

underdog
08-13-2008, 06:31 PM
I think you should NOT learn english until you have a fairly straight stroke...i.e. good fundamentals. I learned what english could do long before I could use it and it took me a while to stop some bad habits because of it.

"...for some, luck is an art."
Tom Cruise 1986

Cornerman
08-13-2008, 06:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: underdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"...for some, luck is an art."
Tom Cruise 1986 </div></div>Wasn't this Martin Scorsese in the opening voice over?

Fred

Bob_Jewett
08-13-2008, 11:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
Not trying to be a wise-guy, but is not "english" the most common cure for collision induced throw, rather than the cause? </div></div>
The problem with that technique, as is covered somewhere in Dr. Dave's material and I think was covered by Ron Shepard earlier, is that the amount of "helping" english must be exact, and it is very easy to over- or under-do it. A beginner has almost no chance to get the mix right. If you are worried about minimizing the problems with CIT, I think a much surer technique is to use a plain, rolling cue ball. One thing is sure: you must be able to aim accurately with a plain, rolling cue ball.

av84fun
08-14-2008, 02:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I show five major problems with using it: squirt, swerve, throw, miscues and cling/skid/kick/bad contacts, and some of the details of those problems. Most beginners do not fully understand those problems when first introduced to them, but I want them to be aware that problems exist.</div></div>

Not trying to be a wise-guy, but is not "english" the most common cure for collision induced throw, rather than the cause?

</div></div>

CIT doesn't need a "cure." It merely needs to be understood and the engineer types need to understand that the geometric contact point will not direct the OB along the line of centers through that CP to the center of the pocket...or any part of the pocket depending on cut angle and distance to the pocket.

As has been pointed out, determining how much side is required to offset CIT is a slippery slope and varies with such things as the condition of the balls being played.

Using side routinely to offset CIT also requires you to accpet the departure angle of the CB off the rail occasioned by that spin...which may or may not be desirable for getting shape on the next ball.

Better to also have a REQUIRED CP (or RCP if I may coin an acronym) in mind as well as the geometric CP. Try one chalk width "thin" from the thin side point of a corner pocket and experiment with 2 chalk widths thin depending on cut angle and create an RCP to that point...assuming you prefer a center ball hit.

Just an idea for those who haven't yet become familiar with Stan Shuffett's quite brillian "Pro One" system.

But to the question originally asked students should be beaten if they are caught using side before they can routinely run 10 widely spaced balls in random order.

And then they should be at least slapped if they use more than 1 tip radius in any direction until they can run 15 balls in random order.

(-:

Jim

Bambu
08-14-2008, 09:18 AM
Alot of beginners I see have an easier time learning outside english first. I think its because outside english cancels out the CIT, while inside does not. Lots of strong 5's I see are pretty good with outside, but tend to overcut or avoid using inside spin.

JJFSTAR
08-14-2008, 10:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But to the question originally asked students should be beaten if they are caught using side before they can routinely run 10 widely spaced balls in random order.

And then they should be at least slapped if they use more than 1 tip radius in any direction until they can run 15 balls in random order.

(-:

Jim </div></div>

Ok as usual I am going to be verbose sorry I am not a professional writer. I agree that it is very important to learn the vertical axis first and be accomplished with it before moving to the horizontal axis. But why do you wait until your student can routinely run approximately ten or fifteen balls spread out on a table before teaching them how to use inside and outside?

I will take these two shots just as an example that come up all the time both are ball before the money ball in whatever game you might be playing except maybe one pocket. The wei table would help here to shorten this explanation so I will love the new software. Let’s keep in mind that these are 2 ball outs.

You’re just a little on the incorrect side of the ball to naturally cut it in the side and naturally roll it down table for the money ball. You’re too thick to play it 3 or 4 rails around the table for the money ball. Well all you need is some power inside follow and you CB hits the long rail just before the pocket and takes a turn to come up with an easy shot on the money ball.

Here is another your money ball is on the other side of the table you have almost enough angle so that just follow will not quite get you position but rather will scratch in the side your shot is easy and hard draw will most likely have you scratch in the other side or straiten out and leave you still on the side that your on. You know all you need is some outside anything from 1-5 o’clock and you come up with an easy shot on your money ball depending on its exact location.

Those two shots are BASIC SHOTS and I explain them long before a student of mine can run 10 – 15 balls consistently. What do you tell your students who can consistently run 5, 6 or 7 balls placed randomly on a table when shots of this type come up in their games? I would really like an answer to that specific question to anyone who has made statements of this type in this thread.

I may be missing something here but I don’t think so. When someone comes up with the idea that something else is needed, does not have the understanding of rotating spheres that they should have that is consistent with their shot making ability or is not diverging from the vertical axis when it would make the position or shot itself far easier it is time to teach them about inside and outside no matter how many balls they happen to be able to run consistently I don’t care if that is 4 or 5 let alone 10 or 15.

Deeman3
08-14-2008, 12:17 PM
You can hit a cue ball off center?

JJFSTAR
08-14-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks Deeman that’s what I tell my students, but you never said (in this thread anyway) that someone needs to be able to run balls in double digits before you tell them that.

av84fun
08-15-2008, 02:26 AM
All excellent points. To answer your question...I am an advocate of a systematic, building block approach to learning anything. I suppose my pilot training looms large in that stylistic choice.

Some flight instructors like to try to teach full stalls, and in some cases in my personal experience, spins to low time students. I object to that first, because you tend to scare the hell out of many of them but more importantly, at the early stages, the student has NO CLUE what aerodynamic forces are at work and what they REALLY "need to know" is far more basic...straight and level, coordidnated flight..then take offs...then landings.

Translating all that to the pool table...first, I was referring to true beginners possibly up to the D level. For those people, the development of a correct stance and repeating stroke mechanics is THE thing to teach.

I won't mention names but a VERY top female pro who also teaches, has students pocket CUE BALLS ONLY while working on "basis mechanics" specifically for the purpose of getting "fear of pocketing a ball" out of the equation entirely.

Smart IMHO.

In my "10 widely spread layout" scenario, I can't imagine not being able to run out with vertical center cueing due to the multitude of shape options available. And of course, vertical center cueing is not limited to foward/reverse CB travel but also, as you know, tangent line and forward and aft of tangent line CB travel so there are significant options when playing balls in random order.

In addition, it is my opinion that an off center hit...either intentional or unintentional is the most common reason for missing shots.

Personally, I don't want a beginner/D player to even THINK about shape until they have acquired solid mechanics including a straight, repeating "SPF" style stroke...because if they don't have that, they are "dead man walking" REGARDLESS of route planning skills.

I realize that my "crawl before you walk" approach may not be as FUN as trying to spin the CB and run rotation racks but I tell the student that if he/she just wants to have fun, then go bang 'em round on the bar box and call me when they've lost enough money to motivate them to want to do the HARD...often boring WORK necessary to actually step their games up.

Finally, on another forum, a very experienced player posted that when he missed, he didn't know whether it was due to a stroke error or aiming error (aiming is necessarily associated with the use of spin).

I found that remark to be VERY telling. Thanks to Scott Lee and other great instructors I've had the good fortune to work with, when I miss, I know EXACTLY if it was due do a poor stroke or an aiming error...usually before the CB even contacts the OB because on most shots, I get to my FINISH position (or not) prior to impact.

I hope this was responsive to your question...and I realize, that my "first things first" approach is a stylistic preference on my part and reasonable minds could well differ.

Regards,
Jim

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But to the question originally asked students should be beaten if they are caught using side before they can routinely run 10 widely spaced balls in random order.

And then they should be at least slapped if they use more than 1 tip radius in any direction until they can run 15 balls in random order.

(-:

Jim </div></div>

Ok as usual I am going to be verbose sorry I am not a professional writer. I agree that it is very important to learn the vertical axis first and be accomplished with it before moving to the horizontal axis. But why do you wait until your student can routinely run approximately ten or fifteen balls spread out on a table before teaching them how to use inside and outside?

I will take these two shots just as an example that come up all the time both are ball before the money ball in whatever game you might be playing except maybe one pocket. The wei table would help here to shorten this explanation so I will love the new software. Let’s keep in mind that these are 2 ball outs.

You’re just a little on the incorrect side of the ball to naturally cut it in the side and naturally roll it down table for the money ball. You’re too thick to play it 3 or 4 rails around the table for the money ball. Well all you need is some power inside follow and you CB hits the long rail just before the pocket and takes a turn to come up with an easy shot on the money ball.

Here is another your money ball is on the other side of the table you have almost enough angle so that just follow will not quite get you position but rather will scratch in the side your shot is easy and hard draw will most likely have you scratch in the other side or straiten out and leave you still on the side that your on. You know all you need is some outside anything from 1-5 o’clock and you come up with an easy shot on your money ball depending on its exact location.

Those two shots are BASIC SHOTS and I explain them long before a student of mine can run 10 – 15 balls consistently. What do you tell your students who can consistently run 5, 6 or 7 balls placed randomly on a table when shots of this type come up in their games? I would really like an answer to that specific question to anyone who has made statements of this type in this thread.

I may be missing something here but I don’t think so. When someone comes up with the idea that something else is needed, does not have the understanding of rotating spheres that they should have that is consistent with their shot making ability or is not diverging from the vertical axis when it would make the position or shot itself far easier it is time to teach them about inside and outside no matter how many balls they happen to be able to run consistently I don’t care if that is 4 or 5 let alone 10 or 15.

</div></div>

av84fun
08-15-2008, 02:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alot of beginners I see have an easier time learning outside english first. I think its because outside english cancels out the CIT, while inside does not. Lots of strong 5's I see are pretty good with outside, but tend to overcut or avoid using inside spin. </div></div>

I agree...but students should know what the correct CP is when using outside, inside or centerball.

I am adamant that the "automatic outside" to cancel CIT is the wrong way to go becuase it locks the shooter in to a cushion rebound angle that may or may not be desirable.

I know players...some pretty good ones too, who ALWAYS use outside to cut balls. That's how they learned to aim. But they are denying themselves a whole WORLD of route options by using outside nearly exclusively.

Regards,
Jim

Bambu
08-15-2008, 09:47 AM
Absolutely. I didnt mean to imply that its ok to rely on outside alone, only that I notice many players doing it.

A guy I gave a lesson to once was a snooker player. He seemed to thrive on just the opposite, inside english. I'm not too sure because I dont play snooker. But I got the impression snooker is more about holding the cb, rather than using outside spin to go around the table(9ball).

JJFSTAR
08-15-2008, 10:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All excellent points. To answer your question...I am an advocate of a systematic, building block approach to learning anything. I suppose my pilot training looms large in that stylistic choice.</div></div>

Av84fun believe it or not you and I are not all that different and here is why; I also teach systematically and it isn’t that I think my past has a lot to do with it. I teach the 1st things 1st because I was a Ballet dancer all my life. I will give an example of how systematic Ballet is.

There is no reason to teach someone how to balance on one foot before they can balance on two feet there is no reason to teach someone how to pirouette (spin) until they can balance on one foot because a pirouette is just a balance + spin. There is no reason to teach someone tour en lair (spin in the air) until they can pirouette because tour en lair is very simply balance + spin + jump. I am sure I don’t need to clarify that.

And that is how I teach pool I start with ceterball and move up, down and then out probably just like every other commonsensical teacher. Although from what I have seen of other teachers they do it more haphazardly than I do because I spent my whole life in a dance studio of old and not a pool hall of this generation. Discipline was of top priority and often shelled out in the form of pain at a very young age.

Admittedly in the 15 years that I have been teaching I have only taught 1 beginner. She is now a pool team captain so she turned out ok. I deal with “C” players almost exclusively. All of the other students that I have or have had are about to enter or are in their first few years of playing pool competitively.

With all due respect you still did not answer my question. My question does not require you to “imagine” anything. I may have not been crystal clear so I will separate my question into a separate paragraph.

What do you tell your students who can only routinely string together 5, 6, 7 or 8 ball outs in random order when they have 2 ball outs that the introduction of sidespin would make relatively easy when you see them play or when they ask you what they should have done differently when they fail? That’s a bad sentence so I will say it from the other side. Why is it a requirement of yours that the student must be able to run 10 balls consistently in all cases before you divulge to them that it is ok to hit the ball to the right or left sometimes? I want to know what you say to them SPECIFICALLY.

So I don’t have a lot of experience teaching “D’s” but it didn’t confuse me when I did. As a matter of fact I would prefer it and here’s why. What is far more prevalent in my personal experience is that I have to fix bad habits.

Here is an example that will hit home right away. Some time ago one of my former students noticed how fast my current student was progressing. He said “man is he moving fast!” I said “he sure is” the former student said “wish I had” and I said to him “he is fortunate, I caught him early so there is not as much for him to unlearn”

Just as a side note (and yes this really did happen) when that same former student was still under my tutelage he was in a pool hall/tavern and ran into his former teacher (who I also know well) and was shooting with him and this kids former “teacher” told him (having noticed that he was cueing centerball sometimes) that he should “forget that no english $_ _ t!!!” and that is a great example of why I have to work so hard sometimes.

av84fun
08-15-2008, 12:49 PM
Actually, I did answer your question which was "But why do you wait until your student can routinely run approximately ten or fifteen balls spread out on a table before teaching them how to use inside and outside?"

I'll take another shot at it...and in a much more succinct fashion. But first, an "editorial comment" to the effect that you already answered your own question in your description of ballet instruction.

1. Without a mechanically sound, repeating stroke, significant progress is hopeless.
2. If the student can't hit the cb at its center...and you know that many cannot do so consistently due to poor stroke mechanics...then they will have no idea why they missed. Was the problem poor aim? Or was it correct aim that that was made to fail due to squirt, swerve or SIT?
3. Running 10 widely spaced balls in random order is WELL within the capability of a "true C player" by using noting but vertical center ball, stop/follow/draw shots.

It's fine to discuss at least the rudiments of what english does and if they want to mess with it while banging balls with their buddies...fine.

But if you get into intricate aspects...such as squirt acting in one direction and swerve in the other, eyes glass over.

My comments relate only to <u>training sessions</u>. They can and will do whatever they want at Bubba's BarBQ and Billiards but if they come to me to learn, I start with the stroke, then progress to the stroke and then spend some time on the stroke.
(-:

Beginners/D players can't stroke properly AT ALL and C players may execute a proper stroke 1 time in 3...which is why they are C players.

Bottom line, at the lower skill levels, teaching IMHO, is not about running rotation patterns which is the primary reason to use off center hits. It is about helping the student to achieve correct mechanics which are the very bedrock of playing superior pool.

Rgards,
Jim





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All excellent points. To answer your question...I am an advocate of a systematic, building block approach to learning anything. I suppose my pilot training looms large in that stylistic choice.</div></div>

Av84fun believe it or not you and I are not all that different and here is why; I also teach systematically and it isn’t that I think my past has a lot to do with it. I teach the 1st things 1st because I was a Ballet dancer all my life. I will give an example of how systematic Ballet is.

There is no reason to teach someone how to balance on one foot before they can balance on two feet there is no reason to teach someone how to pirouette (spin) until they can balance on one foot because a pirouette is just a balance + spin. There is no reason to teach someone tour en lair (spin in the air) until they can pirouette because tour en lair is very simply balance + spin + jump. I am sure I don’t need to clarify that.

And that is how I teach pool I start with ceterball and move up, down and then out probably just like every other commonsensical teacher. Although from what I have seen of other teachers they do it more haphazardly than I do because I spent my whole life in a dance studio of old and not a pool hall of this generation. Discipline was of top priority and often shelled out in the form of pain at a very young age.

Admittedly in the 15 years that I have been teaching I have only taught 1 beginner. She is now a pool team captain so she turned out ok. I deal with “C” players almost exclusively. All of the other students that I have or have had are about to enter or are in their first few years of playing pool competitively.

With all due respect you still did not answer my question. My question does not require you to “imagine” anything. I may have not been crystal clear so I will separate my question into a separate paragraph.

What do you tell your students who can only routinely string together 5, 6, 7 or 8 ball outs in random order when they have 2 ball outs that the introduction of sidespin would make relatively easy when you see them play or when they ask you what they should have done differently when they fail? That’s a bad sentence so I will say it from the other side. Why is it a requirement of yours that the student must be able to run 10 balls consistently in all cases before you divulge to them that it is ok to hit the ball to the right or left sometimes? I want to know what you say to them SPECIFICALLY.

So I don’t have a lot of experience teaching “D’s” but it didn’t confuse me when I did. As a matter of fact I would prefer it and here’s why. What is far more prevalent in my personal experience is that I have to fix bad habits.

Here is an example that will hit home right away. Some time ago one of my former students noticed how fast my current student was progressing. He said “man is he moving fast!” I said “he sure is” the former student said “wish I had” and I said to him “he is fortunate, I caught him early so there is not as much for him to unlearn”

Just as a side note (and yes this really did happen) when that same former student was still under my tutelage he was in a pool hall/tavern and ran into his former teacher (who I also know well) and was shooting with him and this kids former “teacher” told him (having noticed that he was cueing centerball sometimes) that he should “forget that no english $_ _ t!!!” and that is a great example of why I have to work so hard sometimes.
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