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sack316
08-16-2008, 03:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjkH8NEoOUY

http://media.suntimes.com/images/cds/gmapsobama/

http://rezkowatch.blogspot.com/2008/06/rezkos-slum-housing-obamas-district.html


My guess is that "elitist" McCain's high dollar homes are at least out of earshot of any squat boxes he may have had a hand in creating. Then again, as far as I can see, so was Obama (out of earshot that is).

But southside Chicago is what? Supposed to show me what a great job he's gonna do for the little man of this country? Rezko's happenings are supposed to show me what? That he'll crack down on those evil rich and big cooperations that the republicans won't?

My guess is the guy has probably had some great ideas for how he'd like things to be for a long time. And I honestly do think that in his heart he wants good to happen and wants things to turn out as he says. it's just that nobody, including himself, really knows HOW he can make these things happen. And thus far in his career I don't think I've seen anything that shows he can do it. Hope and Change? Maybe. But Yes We Can... perhaps we can, but thus far he hasn't.

Sack

pooltchr
08-16-2008, 07:58 AM
Very good analysis. We all want things to be better for all of us. The question of HOW is something that comes more often from experience. I see no evidence that he has shown his ability to bring about the changes he talks about.

What we want and what we can do are often two different things. As the old saying goes, you can want in one hand, and....

Steve

Gayle in MD
08-16-2008, 10:45 AM
He knew this war would be a disaster. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif
That in and of itself puts him way above McCain, IMO.

Do you deny that McCain has flip flopped on just about everything? Do you deny that he is the one who is running a filthy campaign, spreading lies, and proving himself, disconnected from many issues, and making stupid mistatementes, one after another?

I believe that there is a reason why so many people around the world want Obama in the White House. I think he does show the mark of a leader, which is just what this country needs right now. You can't deny the way he has brought so many new voters into the process, that's been documented. There is a reason why. People are tired of all the lies, and the hidden government the Republicans have created.

Beyond that, Republican foreing policies have proven to be bad for our country. How can anyone deny that?

Here is an excerpt from Andrew J. Bacevich's book, The Limits Of Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet ironically Iraq may yet prove to be the source of our salvation. For the United States, the ongoing war makes plain the imperative of putting America's house in order. Iraq has revealed the futility of counting on military power to sustain our habits of profligacy. The day of reckoning approaches. Expending the lives of more American soldiers in hopes of deferring that day is profoundly wrong. History will not judge kindly a people who find nothing amiss in the prospect of endless armed conflict so long as they themselves are spared the effects. Nor will it view with favor an electorate that delivers political power into the hands of leaders unable to envision any alternative to perpetual war.

Rather than insisting that the world accommodate the United States, Americans need to reassert control over their own destiny, ending their condition of dependency and abandoning their imperial delusions. Of perhaps even greater difficulty, the combination of economic, political, and military crisis summons Americans to reexamine exactly what freedom entails. Soldiers cannot accomplish these tasks, nor should we expect politicians to do so. The onus of responsibility falls squarely on citizens.



</div></div>

You will find much more of this excerpt of former army colonel Andrew Bacevish's book, who lost a son in Iraq, and is a foreign affairs expert, and professor, at this link

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html

sack316
08-16-2008, 02:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He knew this war would be a disaster. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif
That in and of itself puts him way above McCain, IMO. </div></div>

Just as he knew the surge would be as well. Some would say McCain knew the surge would be a success, and that in and of itself puts him above Obama. Potato, potahto. Even a broken clock gets to be right twice a day.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you deny that McCain has flip flopped on just about everything? Do you deny that he is the one who is running a filthy campaign, spreading lies, and proving himself, disconnected from many issues, and making stupid mistatementes, one after another?</div></div>

Nah, I can't deny that McCain has flip flopped any more than one could deny Obama has flip flopped. "On just about everything", no I couldn't say that about either candidate, and you know that's quite a reach there. But both of them have, yes. Though I don't recall seeing McCain pull one off in the same day such as Obama has.

As far as filthy campaigning and spreading lies... well I see it going both ways actually and I tend to not believe either candidate is behind what they would get ultimately blamed for. I would like to see you cite specific instances where McCain has told a lie smearing Obama. And I mean a lie, not a right wing/left wing stretch of an issue to make the other look bad on something that is technically correct but made to look worse than it is. I mean an actual lie. Because the banter and ads out against Obama are equally as bad towards McCain... tit for tat and that's politics.

Stupid mistatements, indeed I can grant you that. But I again will say just listen to Obama without a teleprompter or away from scripted questions and the "errs" and "uhhhs" don't sound so bright either.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I believe that there is a reason why so many people around the world want Obama in the White House.</div></div>

I think most of the world hates us anyway, and has for quite a long time. Hence I see no reason not to think the "world" wouldn't want what's worst for us. Sans 9-11, I don't know when the world has really been behind us in a long time. I think most would smirk at the thought of evil greedy capitalist America falling. So forgive me if I take the world opinion with a grain of salt.

Sack

sack316
08-16-2008, 02:43 PM
oh, and while I'm at it... anyone have anything to say about the district Obama was over and the shape that it's in?

Sack

mike60
08-16-2008, 04:47 PM
The World has an opinion? The World has many opinions and they are all valid in some way. The individuals making up the world deserve to be heard and to do so they
join or create groups to send out their messages. Some are dishonorable scum like the Corsi creature. After lying about John Kerry and helping saddle us with GW Bush
and the ever so rotten Cheney he now pretends to know about B Obama. The opposition to Obama is a scattered lot without any real focus so they manufacture lies
about his religion or education. This is just desperate and scared and shows the shallow nature of their intellect.

mike

sack316
08-16-2008, 09:03 PM
indeed Mike, the world does have an opinion. And if I listen to Gayle, the vast majority of the world would be whole heartedly Obama. Hence the reason for that part of my post.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The opposition to Obama is a scattered lot without any real focus so they manufacture lies
about his religion or education.
mike </div></div>

Do you mean the McCain camp, or do you mean random crazy viral emails floating around from some crazy loons? Because if it's the latter I'd actually agree with you 100% there.

Sack

p.s. oh, and while I'm at it... anyone have anything to say about the district Obama was over and the shape that it's in?

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 08:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In an immediate sense, it is the soldier who bears the burden of such folly. U.S. troops in battle dress and body armor, whom Americans profess to admire and support, pay the price for the nation's collective refusal to confront our domestic dysfunction. In many ways, the condition of the military today offers the most urgent expression of that dysfunction. Seven years into its confrontation with radical Islam, the United States finds itself with too much war for too few warriors and with no prospect of producing the additional soldiers needed to close the gap. In effect, Americans now confront a looming military crisis to go along with the economic and political crises that they have labored so earnestly to ignore.

</div></div>

McCain supported everything Bush has done which has gotten us into the mess we're in right now. That ought to give you some idea fo what you'lll get from a war hawk like McCain, whose campaign if chock full of lobbyists, 70 of them, and a number of them who have represented rogue nations.

We'll be lucky if Bush and McCain don't have us a war with Russia, or Iran, before the election. Same blustering style foregn policies, and in Iraq, and Afghanistan, their changes are the very changes that Obama was advising long ago, and being bashed for doing so, from talking with Iran, to taking more focus on Afghanistan, and bin Laden. They have bashed him, and then done exactly what he said, trying to hide and reframe some of it.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 08:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">indeed Mike, the world does have an opinion. And if I listen to Gayle, the vast majority of the world would be whole heartedly Obama. Hence the reason for that part of my post.

</div></div>

Actually, the vast majority of the world IS for Obama. And it is a total cop out not to address the fact that Bush's policies have created many enemies, that used to be behind us, after 9/11.

Republican policies have put our country into a trick bag.

Deny it all you wish, it is the truth.

Gayle in Md.

sack316
08-18-2008, 11:18 AM
I think I agreed with that previously Gayle, that the majority of the world is for Obama. It's their reasons for doing so that I questioned.

And while we have created many enemies after 9-11, it's not as though the aftermath was the turning point where the world started to dislike us. 9-11 was simply a break where they happened to have empathy for us. This admin and republican policies may have given them a reminder of why they didn't care too much for us... but it was far from bring the start of ill will being thrown our direction.

Sack

p.s. oh, and while I'm at it... anyone have anything to say about the district Obama was over and the shape that it's in?

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 11:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This admin and republican policies may have given them a reminder of why they didn't care too much for us... but it was far from bring the start of ill will being thrown our direction.
</div></div>

Sack,

Most foreign policy people that I have heard, or read, have said that the invasion, and they way the administration has handled their illegal occupation of a foreign country, torture, rendition, secret jails, outsourcing torture, killing of civilians in large numbers, Blackwater, Bush's swaggering styled diplomacy, aka cowboy diplomacy, all have seriously damaged our reputation around the world, and aided our enemies, emboldened their cause, contributed to their franchising opportunities, increased terrorist attacks, you name it.


I'm sure I have posted the links from our own National Security Estimate on here. I don't think how people felt about us before hand, speaks at all to the damage that has been done by Bush's policies.

Gayle in Md.

Bobbyrx
08-18-2008, 11:54 AM
"anyone have anything to say about the district Obama was over and the shape that it's in?"

That was what this post was about wasn't it? How did we get to page 2 with no comment? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

sack316
08-18-2008, 12:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This admin and republican policies may have given them a reminder of why they didn't care too much for us... but it was far from bring the start of ill will being thrown our direction.
</div></div>

Sack,

Most foreign policy people that I have heard, or read, have said that the invasion, and they way the administration has handled their illegal occupation of a foreign country, torture, rendition, secret jails, outsourcing torture, killing of civilians in large numbers, Blackwater, Bush's swaggering styled diplomacy, aka cowboy diplomacy, all have seriously damaged our reputation around the world, and aided our enemies, emboldened their cause, contributed to their franchising opportunities, increased terrorist attacks, you name it.


I'm sure I have posted the links from our own National Security Estimate on here. I don't think how people felt about us before hand, speaks at all to the damage that has been done by Bush's policies.

Gayle in Md.
</div></div>

Very good Gayle. I think I in fact said pretty much the same thing, and have numerous times admitted the damage that has been done over the last 8 years. I don't think you'll find and instance where I denied that.

My point was, and yes I know I'm much younger, that the world still wasn't our biggest fan in the first place before this admin. What this admin has done, doesn't change that. Yes, I know I know, Bush bad... last 8 years damage our reputation, etc. etc. But our rep wasn't the best we could hope for before that, either.

Sack

p.s. ehhh, how many times can I post the same ps?

sack316
08-18-2008, 12:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobbyrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"anyone have anything to say about the district Obama was over and the shape that it's in?"

That was what this post was about wasn't it? How did we get to page 2 with no comment? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

very carefully /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

But let us not forget Bobby, we are the ones who are blind and refuse to look at the truth of what republicans do. And we are the ONLY ONES who are that way. period. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

Sack

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 12:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But our rep wasn't the best we could hope for before that, either.

Sack
</div></div> <span style="color: #000066">Right, we lost a lot of credibility over Nixon, (total crook, and biggot) Reagan, (Secretly trading arms with drug dealers and propping up rogue nations, and terrorists) and Bush One, (Also propped up rogue dictators, encouraged the Kurds to rise up against Saddam, and then left them to be slaughtered) and then there was Clinton, who is loved all around the world, and over whose Republican trumped up impeachment, the whole world was laughing over.</span>

sack316
08-18-2008, 04:06 PM
well at least you kinda finally admitted we were hated long before Bush, anyway. I'd bet you could also easily find out we weren't liked much even before Nixon, too. You can do it! Yes you can!

Sack

p.s. oh, and while I'm at it... anyone have anything to say about the district Obama was over and the shape that it's in?

Bobbyrx
08-18-2008, 05:20 PM
The 13th is doing fine:
Gangs divide Obama's 13th district (http://www.chicagojournal.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=3098&SectionID=25&SubSectionID=&S=1)

sack316
08-18-2008, 11:25 PM
To my knowledge, the Latin Kings are actually full of good leaders and well organized. Things should be fine and I apologize for having any doubts as to the well being of the area /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sack

Gayle in MD
08-19-2008, 05:04 AM
Given the state of the job market in that area, and around the country, and the higher costs of everything, the recession, things would have to be worse there, than before. Things are bad all over this country, not just in Obama's former neighborhood, where he has a huge following, and support.

They're doing great in Texas, though! OIL.

I don't think many of you Bush supporters understand the economic disaster Bush has put this country into, much of it because of the Republican policies, from Reagan, on.

Why should we reward corporations for doing things that are bad for the country?

Why should we allow China to steal from us on the global market?

Why shouldn't those who benefitted from this mortgage scam, have to pay the price for what they did.

Deregulation is just another way of saying that corporate interests have been given the green light to bilk and abuse the American tax payer, every way possible, including destroyig our manufactureing industry, outsourcing our jobs, and poisoning everyone, literally. Bush has turned every consumer protection agency in our government, from the FDA, to the ICE, to the FED, into a tool for corporate interests. Fascism under our noses!

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-19-2008, 05:08 AM
And just look who published Corsi's book! Mary Matilin! they probably wrote it right at her own desk in the White House! she's nothing but a tool for the neocons.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

sack316
08-19-2008, 10:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the state of the job market in that area, and around the country, and the higher costs of everything, the recession, things would have to be worse there, than before. Things are bad all over this country, not just in Obama's former neighborhood, where he has a huge following, and support.

They're doing great in Texas, though! OIL.

</div></div>

I'm not sure I'm gonna buy this theory Gayle. First, southside Chigago has been rough for a long time... gasp... even during the Clinton years! Not that Clinton has anything to do with it, I'm not saying that. But that's when the economy was good etc., so by that theory things would have improved during that time. It has only gotten rougher and worse.

Second, the economy has an impact here in my nice little central Alabama area. We don't have any oil right here. Yet my town of Prattville has grown by leaps and bounds and is currently thriving. Montgomery has made drastic improvements as far as growth and new business as well. And not only by growing outwards to new areas... they haven't forgot about the old run down areas either, and have been making improvements and renovating what has been a very "rough" downtown area. It's still not perfect by any means... but it's liveable and renewed. The only place here seeing trouble right now is Jefferson County (Birmingham), they are now bankrupt and facing the biggest debt of any county in this US... and that's because of corruption in regards to a sewer project.

We see Obama's huge following and support from his old neighborhood. We don't get to see those that don't. And for all intensive purposes, from what I see, Obama actualyl did a whole lot of good for that community... it's just that most of it was done before his career in politics got rolling. Which, BTW got rolling in the first place via knocking all opponents off the ballot if I'm not mistaken. A perfectly legal move mind you, but as someone who likes to discuss the wrong way of campaigning and politics in the republican party, I would think that would alarm you. It's easy to be chosen, when there are no alternatives to choose from.

In the end, my point from the beginning was that one of the first knocks on the guy was his lack of experience. Thus we should look at the work he has done to this point. And that, speaks for itself on the southside.

Sack

Deeman3
08-19-2008, 10:39 AM
I watched the hour long program on Obama on Fox last night and I think they treated him fairly, did pretty much follow his career and stayed mostly to his words and history.

I think is he were to appear on Oreilly like Hillary did, he would see some additional votes our of it. He won't reach the middle of America as effectively if he does not go on all circuits. I think he even benefits from the Warren forum in the long run.

sack316
08-19-2008, 10:48 AM
I agree Deeman. I actually thought the program showed him in a pretty positive light overall. Much to my dismay... wanted some more ammo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif j/k. There were some things about him that I learned that I actually even liked... and of all places saw it from Fox. How odd, huh? I liked how they used Obama's readings from his books to highlight a lot of the info, rather than using someone's "take" on the words.

If Obama supporters spent more time supporting Obama, rather than making fun of and pointing out McCain gaffes, he may even get more support that way /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I watched Countdown last night as well... and by the end the only names of people in my mind were McCain and Oreilly. Almost enough to make one forget Obama is even in the race for that hour!

Sack

Bobbyrx
08-19-2008, 12:06 PM
And James Carville was and is a tool for the far leftocons.....and they both laugh all the way to the bank

Gayle in MD
08-19-2008, 05:08 PM
The only thing that alarms me is the thought of John McCain in the White House.

IMHO, neither are good choices. Of the two, McCain, is actually a dangerous choice.

As for your other very well reasoned comments, I think that crime is always worse in areas of poverty.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-19-2008, 05:12 PM
Atleast he isn't raking in the money by publishing a book of lies and slander about McCain, like his republican wife did when she decided to publish Corsi's book.

The talk around town is that she has seriously damaged her reputation. Corsi never had a decent name in the first place.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

sack316
08-19-2008, 10:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for your other very well reasoned comments, I think that crime is always worse in areas of poverty.
Gayle in Md. </div></div>

I agree that can pretty well be expected. And I know Obama didn't quite have Emerald City to work with to begin with. But I think it was part of his job, to at the very least not have things get worse under his watch. Ideally he would raise it up and provide a situation in which his touted "hope and change" could at least be part of a future vision for the area. IMHO, he failed them, and that was just a district... a part of a city. I fail to see how he would do any better with an entire country, that's my worry.

I know neither of us are fans of either candidate. And I do understand why you feel Obama is the lesser of two evils here. I just hope you understand why others feel the opposite way about it.

Sack

Gayle in MD
08-20-2008, 05:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just hope you understand why others feel the opposite way about it.

Sack </div></div>

Actually, Sack, I don't. I can't see much difference between the candidates as far as personal achievment or possitive impact. They are just like most all candidates, all rhetoric, playing to their base, opportunists, who will say anything to get elected, and then break their word once they're in there.

We don't have a democracy anymore. We have and Imperial country, where the president has all the power, and our elected officials are more than happy to hand it over to him, to do with it as he likes, which lets them off the hook to focus on more rhetoric for their own re-election campaign.

Gayle in Md.