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Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 08:38 AM
McCain cites questionable story on 'evil'

http://www.politico.com

A reader points out that John McCain's example of pure evil yesterday rests on a story asserted by Iraqi officials, but since cast into doubt.

"Not long ago in Baghdad, Al Qaeda took two young women who were mentally disabled and put suicide vests on them, sent them into a marketplace, and by remote control, detonated those suicide vests," McCain told Rick Warren. "If that isn't evil, you have to tell me what is."

The horrifying story that terrorists used two women with Down Syndrome to carry bombs was a sensation in February, but The New York Times later suggested it hadn't happened that way:

Psychiatric case files of two female suicide bombers who killed nearly 100 people in Baghdad this month show that they suffered from depression and schizophrenia but do not contain information indicating they had Down Syndrome, American officials said Wednesday.

In the aftermath of the Feb. 1 bombings — the most devastating attacks in Baghdad since summer — Iraqi officials said that the women had Down syndrome, a genetic disorder. They based their opinion partly on the appearance of the remains of the women, whose heads, as often happens in suicide bombings, were severed by the blasts.

A senior American commander in Baghdad, Maj. Gen. Jeffery W. Hammond, also said there were indications that the women were mentally disabled and were unwitting victims of insurgents.

The information led to reports that Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, a homegrown Sunni extremist group that American officials say is led by foreigners, had been using mentally disabled people as suicide bombers.

But a senior American military spokesman said Wednesday that it remained unclear whether the women had Down syndrome or suffered from any medical condition that would have prevented them from understanding what they were doing.

Not that the suicide bombings weren't evil enough. But the Down Syndrome bombers — as they were described at the time — seems to be an urban legend.



By Ben Smith 12:33 PM

Deeman3
08-18-2008, 08:47 AM
Yes, This could have giving Al Qaeda a bad name if you had not cleared it up for us. If McCain keeps unfairly trying to make these persons look bad, we may have to reconsider his judgement.

As long as their mental condition can't be proven beyond a doubt in an American court of law, these freedom fighters shold be given every benfit fo the doubt. Maybe the ACLU can get involved here.

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 09:10 AM
That's not the point. The point is he lied about it.

Deeman3
08-18-2008, 09:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's not the point. The point is he lied about it.
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<span style="color: #FF0000"> Repeating an urban legend, even if it is, is not a lie, of course, unless you are McCain. If Obama does that it would be a misinformed or at worst, a Hillary moment. It is not so bad to question a candidate but the constant rain of bitterness and questioning of his every word is not right, IMO.

The reports were widespred on the women that were susposed to be mentally unaware fo their circumstances and, to my knowledge, no blanket wide coverage was given to it's debunking, in fact they still disagree on it being a true story or not.

We get it. You do not like McCain. He was unfaithful to his first wife, his second one creeps you out, they have a black child, no doubt adopted to get ratings and irritate you. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

You are acting just like those who have falsely claimed Obama is a secret Muslim. Same stuff, just a different side of the hate coin. </span>

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 09:44 AM
I'm disgusted with the same old Republican smear machine.

McCain has a reputation, even among his former friends, and among blue collar workers in the Senate Office Building, for his unstable emotional outbursts, for being deceitful, an opportunist, an elitists, and in bed with too many lobbyists. If it is fine for those charges to be launched against Democratic candidates, it should be fair play when actual proof is available against Republican candidates.

I think ALL of those charges are true, and can be proven through his own actions, throughout his life.

You don't have to "Hate" a man, to know that it would be disasterous if he were to bcome our president.

As far as I'm concerned, all terrorists are mentally ill, but repeating a story the has been debunked by our own government, in order to keep the fear of the enemy hype going, is typical of his usual statements, he's either not paying attention, (Even I knew the story had been debunked) or he's lying, take your choice.

Gayle in Md.

sack316
08-18-2008, 11:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> seems to be an urban legend.

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Didn't you just not too long ago point out the importance of things like questions marks and the word "seems"? This article you posted shows it's possible that they didn't have down syndrome, but doesn't say that they actually did or didn't. But it does confirm that they suffered from depression and schizophrenia.

McCain's answer on the forum was, and as quoted in your article: "two young women who were mentally disabled". I don't see the words "down syndrome" anywhere in that. And regardless of that, since when do depression and schizophrenia not count as mental disorders/disabilities? Did something change while I was alseep this morning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But a senior American military spokesman said Wednesday that it remained unclear whether the women had Down syndrome or suffered from any medical condition that would have prevented them from understanding what they were doing.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Psychiatric case files of two female suicide bombers who killed nearly 100 people in Baghdad this month show that they suffered from depression and schizophrenia</div></div>

don't these two statements within the same article directly contradict themselves?

At any rate, I fail to see the "lies" your title eluded to. I didn't see anywhere where McCain said down syndrome... and the "lie" you attempt to point out seems quivalent to calling into work sick with the flu, and your employer docking you the day because you actually only had a severe cold.

Sack

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 11:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But a senior American military spokesman said Wednesday that it remained unclear whether the women had Down syndrome or suffered from any medical condition that would have prevented them from understanding what they were doing.
</div></div>

Tell me. Did you also think Obama's ONLY policy for dealing with the oil situation was to inflate our tires? That is exactly what McCain's campaign message stated. It also states that Obama is going to raise taxes for people only making around $45,000.00, another lie. Did you think the Iraqis have settled their political and ethnic differences required in order that McCain could honestly say that the "Surge has worked" ?

"We're winning in Iraq."?



Gayle in Md.

Bobbyrx
08-18-2008, 11:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">McCain has a reputation, even among his former friends, and among blue collar workers in the Senate Office Building, for his unstable emotional outbursts, for being deceitful, an opportunist, an elitists, and in bed with too many lobbyists.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Definition of politician:
unstable emotional outbursts, for being deceitful, an opportunist, an elitists, and in bed with too many lobbyists.</span>

You don't have to "Hate" a man, to know that it would be disasterous if he were to bcome our president. <span style="color: #FF0000">That's why I would never vote for Obama </span>

"I'm disgusted with the same old Republican smear machine." <span style="color: #FF0000">Yet you are going after McCain's mother from 1980 </span>

Gayle in Md.

</div></div> <span style="color: #FF0000"> </span>

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 11:58 AM
I'm pointing out that she is presently lying, just as her son is presently lying.

I think we've had enough lies to last us a while, particularly since we have over $4,150 dead American soldiers, and their suicide rates going through the ceiling, all because of lies.

Gayle in Md.

Bobbyrx
08-18-2008, 12:02 PM
They all lie. They are running for president. And the lady is 96 years old for crying out loud.

Deeman3
08-18-2008, 12:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> particularly since we have over $4,150,000 dead American soldiers
Gayle in Md. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Really? I thought the number was around 4,150!
Democxrats wouldn't exagerate, like McCain's mother, would they? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</span>

sack316
08-18-2008, 12:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But a senior American military spokesman said Wednesday that it remained unclear whether the women had Down syndrome or suffered from any medical condition that would have prevented them from understanding what they were doing.
</div></div>

Tell me. Did you also think Obama's ONLY policy for dealing with the oil situation was to inflate our tires? That is exactly what McCain's campaign message stated. It also states that Obama is going to raise taxes for people only making around $45,000.00, another lie. Did you think the Iraqis have settled their political and ethnic differences required in order that McCain could honestly say that the "Surge has worked" ?

"We're winning in Iraq."?



Gayle in Md. </div></div>

Yes, I saw that bolded part you re-quoted. it also says "it remained unclear". In other words "I don't know". While at the same time other parts of the same article were sure about depression and schizophrenia... which was based on psychiatric case files, and not a lay opinion. I'll go with the latter. and if by some odd reasoning you are saying those disorders allow sufferers to have a clear cognitive state of mind... well then that's just sad.

No, I didn't think Obama's ONLY solution was to inflate tires. I just thought it was funny that he equated it's impact with drilling.

And you continue to point out other "lies" and such, yet fail to address the shortcomings of this very post which you created. You made this thread about this one topic, and now that it is pointed out that the logic behind it is lacking... and that indeed there is a failure of logic within the article and a failure to expose any sort of "lie" whatsoever... you scurry to other things to attempt to prove a point-- things that have nothing to do with THIS TOPIC that YOU posted.

Sack

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 12:09 PM
Thanks, I'll was correcting that mistake...

Deeman3
08-18-2008, 12:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, I'll was correcting that mistake... </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Hey, you know me. I never made a typo...

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </span>

Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 12:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I saw that bolded part you re-quoted. it also says "it remained unclear". In other words "I don't know". While at the same time other parts of the same article were sure about depression and schizophrenia... which was based on psychiatric case files, and not a lay opinion. <span style="color: #000066">And apparently our government found cause to say that those files were suspect. </span> I'll go with the latter. <span style="color: #000066">I thought you would. </span> and if by some odd reasoning you are saying those disorders allow sufferers to have a clear cognitive state of mind... well then that's just sad. <span style="color: #000066">I'm saying there was cause not to make the statement in the first place, and use it as just another source to promote more justification for a war that we already know was a drastic mistake, according to our National Intelligence Estimate, and most all former foreign policy experts. </span>

No, I didn't think Obama's ONLY solution was to inflate tires. I just thought it was funny that he equated it's impact with drilling. <span style="color: #000066">He didn't do that, first of all, and actually, the estimate DOES provide an immediate reduction in oil usage, where drilling as a solution, is absurd, given how many years we'd be waiting for any reduction, at all. </span>

And you continue to point out other "lies" and such, yet fail to address the shortcomings of this very post which you created. <span style="color: #000066">I don't think this post has any short comings. I stated, he either isn't up on things, or he;'s lying. I suppose you might say that I would assume since I knew the government had backed off the story, he would have known, also. Just like I'm sure he realized that air in our tires, was not Obama's entire solution, although he surely stated that it was, in his own campaign message, follwed by, "I'm John McCain, and I approve this message." </span> You made this thread about this one topic, and now that it is pointed out that the logic behind it is lacking... <span style="color: #000066">That's your opinion, not mine. </span> and that indeed there is a failure of logic within the article and a failure to expose any sort of "lie" whatsoever... <span style="color: #000066">Again, that's your opinion, not mine. </span> you scurry to other things to attempt to prove a point-- things that have nothing to do with THIS TOPIC that YOU posted.

<span style="color: #000066">I stand by the post. I think McCain knew damned well that the story had been disclaimed by our government, just as I don't think one can unintentionally file a law suit. Another lie. </span>


<span style="color: #000066">he knows better than what he's peddling about oil, too. </span>

"The projections in the OCS access case indicate that access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030. Leasing would begin no sooner than 2012, and production would not be expected to start before 2017. Total domestic production of crude oil from 2012 through 2030 in the OCS access case is projected to be 1.6 percent higher than in the reference case, and 3 percent higher in 2030 alone, at 5.6 million barrels per day. For the lower 48 OCS, annual crude oil production in 2030 is projected to be 7 percent higher—2.4 million barrels per day in the OCS access case compared with 2.2 million barrels per day in the reference case (Figure 20). Because oil prices are determined on the international market, however, any impact on average wellhead prices is expected to be insignificant.

Similarly, lower 48 natural gas production is not projected to increase substantially by 2030 as a result of increased access to the OCS. Cumulatively, lower 48 natural gas production from 2012 through 2030 is projected to be 1.8 percent higher in the OCS access case than in the reference case. Production levels in the OCS access case are projected at 19.0 trillion cubic feet in 2030, a 3-percent increase over the reference case projection of 18.4 trillion cubic feet. However, natural gas production from the lower 48 offshore in 2030 is projected to be 18 percent (590 billion cubic feet) higher in the OCS access case (Figure 21). In 2030, the OCS access case projects a decrease of $0.13 in the average wellhead price of natural gas (2005 dollars per thousand cubic feet), a decrease of 250 billion cubic feet in imports of liquefied natural gas, and an increase of 360 billion cubic feet in natural gas consumption relative to the reference case projections. In addition, despite the increase in production from previously restricted areas after 2012, total natural gas production from the lower 48 OCS is projected generally to decline after 2020.

Although a significant volume of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil and natural gas resources is added in the OCS access case, conversion of those resources to production would require both time and money. In addition, the average field size in the Pacific and Atlantic regions tends to be smaller than the average in the Gulf of Mexico, implying that a significant portion of the additional resource would not be economically attractive to develop at the reference case prices."



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Gayle in MD
08-18-2008, 12:22 PM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif