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Rail Rat
08-19-2008, 04:40 PM
shown below is a testy little kick shot to hit the yellow ball.

In Fig 1. determine the vertical half way point of the shot, A and B, (Line C.) We see it falls just to the left of the top center pocket.

In Fig 2. determine the horizontal half way point between the two balls, D and F (Line E.) Now determine half that distance, line G, In this case about 1 diamond length.

In Fig 3. take line G distance and place it horizontally starting from C and determine a fixed spot on the rail (just past the first diamond) Now shoot to that spot. Use no english only slight top.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If the QB is above the OB on the kick, then place the G spot distance on the QB side of line C.

I use this techique for difficult kicks to judge. It takes a bit of practice but really all it is is finding the center point of the verticle and horz. then splitting the difference. -brad
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/kickshot.jpg

JoeW
08-19-2008, 05:01 PM
Thank you. That is one I have not seen. I assume that you are shooting the center of the CB at the rail -- right.

I am going to go and try that right now.

Rail Rat
08-19-2008, 05:16 PM
Thats correct Joe. With this technique the diamonds are for reference to find the G spot if you will. :&gt;)

Soflasnapper
08-19-2008, 05:51 PM
I've never seen it done this way, and it is interesting. I'll try it out.

However, in order to MAKE the ball, the old 'X' system can give you a close to exact line. Can the technique you show be fine-tuned to either hit one side or another of the object ball kicked at, and/or to make it?

The 'X' system, while dead on, IMO (for a given medium stroke, no English) is also the cause of general hilarity to opponents (until I make the ball).

JoeW
08-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Your method is quite useful.

I find that if I drop a perpendicular line from the rail to the diamond I have a specific aim point.

The longer the distance between the CB and OB (diamonds of separation) the more the CB tends to go long. These offsets can be learned.

There are a couple of different aim points.

1. Aiming through the CB where the CB that hits the rail tends to go long.

2. Aiming through the center of the CB at the same point tend to be more accurate.

3. Spiderman's technique (center base of CB and the dirt trail is the most comfortable (yields a higher degree of confidence) with regard to a specific aim point.

I tried about 20 randomly placed shots using your method with center ball and estimating how much the CB goes long and missed very few shots (maybe 3).

I think that with your method there are specific aim points and that with practice I can get much more accurate with regard to hitting a specific side of the OB.

Spiderman's method works best for an OB near a rail to hit a specific part of the OB.

JoeW
08-19-2008, 06:15 PM
In addition to your method, for simple cross the table kicks I find that the best way to construct the angle is to determine the right triangle into the rail using one diamond offset. This triangle can be flipped for the return angle. Using these two triangles to determine the angles insures that I stay perpendicular to the rails.

If one looks at angle in angle out there is a tendency to forget to keep the triangulation perpendicular to the rail. I would bet that is why many people (including me) did not calculate the right return angle. With two trangles the perpendicular nature of the calculations cannot be left out.

JoeW
08-19-2008, 06:23 PM
I have tried the X system in the past and was not all that pleased with it. I probably did not spend enough time with the needed visualizations. It works, just not well enough for me. But then too I was not looking for a specific point to begin the hit calculations. I would have to return to that system with this new approach to see if it worked.

The X system, by its nature, insures that one stay perpendicular to the rail so that is a definite advantage.

I think that RailRat's method is quite easy to use and requires less visualization. At least it seems that way tonight.

Rail Rat
08-20-2008, 09:09 AM
AS you mentioned Joe kicking works best if you can visualize the spot on the rail and not have to sight on past it to a diamond. Since we are measuring on the exact playing surface we can do that, its just a matter of correctly judging distance.

I find it helps in practice to put a piece of chalk at the G point to see if i'm guessing right. I allways add just a tad more distance to it because of rail induced spin.

Also a good way in practise to find halfway points is to lay your cue on the table exactly between the AB, DF distances and use the joint as your measure.

And of course its all for naught if you put any spin on the ball. -brad

Rail Rat
08-20-2008, 09:28 AM
Another interesting point Joe is that where D intersects C is the exact point the QB crosses for a perendicular hit.
Brad

JoeW
08-20-2008, 09:32 AM
I read this somewhere else but it seems to apply here too. One could place pencil marks on their cue stick to indicate the 1/4, 1/2 distances between to diamonds.

Personally I prefer to learn to estimate but I can see where it might be useful for some. I think that is also necessary to learn to visualize the projection of lines. This takes some practice too.

SpiderMan
08-20-2008, 09:57 AM
Brad,

Although this system works for your illustration, in general you should not depend on it because it is not geometrically correct.

For example, move both the cueball and the yellow ball an equal amount (about one diamond) toward the upper side rail. Line C does not move, and the spacing between lines D, E, and F also remains the same. So, distance G is the same, and your aimpoint on the rail is the same. But the shot now misses by a considerable margin because the yellow ball is near the rail and the CB will pass way outside it.

SpiderMan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shown below is a testy little kick shot to hit the yellow ball.

In Fig 1. determine the vertical half way point of the shot, A and B, (Line C.) We see it falls just to the left of the top center pocket.

In Fig 2. determine the horizontal half way point between the two balls, D and F (Line E.) Now determine half that distance, line G, In this case about 1 diamond length.

In Fig 3. take line G distance and place it horizontally starting from C and determine a fixed spot on the rail (just past the first diamond) Now shoot to that spot. Use no english only slight top.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If the QB is above the OB on the kick, then place the G spot distance on the QB side of line C.

I use this techique for difficult kicks to judge. It takes a bit of practice but really all it is is finding the center point of the verticle and horz. then splitting the difference. -brad
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii168/funkychateau/kickshot.jpg

</div></div>

Rail Rat
08-20-2008, 10:15 AM
It works best when the layout is out in the table which I find the most difficult, when close to the rails the lines are more steep, but then the kicks are more easy too.

But yes it won't work on close to the rail shots.

Bob_Jewett
08-20-2008, 10:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... Although this system works for your illustration, in general you should not depend on it because it is not geometrically correct. ... </div></div>
Yes, the system is fundamentally broken. The way I saw this was with the thought experiment: compress the shot along the long dimension of the table. The contact point on the cushion must maintain the same proportion of the total length of the shot even as that length goes to zero, but the G length remains fixed at about a diamond.

SpiderMan
08-20-2008, 10:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It works best when the layout is out in the table which I find the most difficult, when close to the rails the lines are more steep, but then the kicks are more easy too.

But yes it won't work on close to the rail shots. </div></div>

It also breaks down whenever the shooting angle into the rail becomes closer to perpendicular, as suggested by Bob. It's really a dangerous thing to depend on.

SpiderMan

Rail Rat
08-20-2008, 12:54 PM
I see your point. It fails when all the balls move together. I have been using this system and it has worked in the past becuase of different configurations. I need to work on a 3rd factor in my measuring. I think Bob's observation is the answer.