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Bambu
08-23-2008, 10:25 AM
The thing I dont like most about 9 ball is the luck factor. So over the years I have changed the "house rules" (in my garage) to try to eliminate the luck as much as possible. IMHO, these rules work very well because each win is earned more legitimately. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should play, but this works well for me and the guys I play with. If anyone has any better ideas, I am all for suggestions.

1. No lucky shots- If you make a lucky shot, opponent has the
option to take control of table, or let you shoot again.
(Lucky secondary balls are ok.)
2. Two way shots are ok, as long as 1 or 2 of the balls you call
go in. (You cannot call more than 2 balls per shot.)
3. Loser Breaks-this gives whoever is losing, a better chance to
catch up.
4. 9-Ball on the break gives you ball in hand, not a win.

1Time
08-23-2008, 10:30 AM
Spot the loser the 8ball if he loses again after breaking. Keep lowering the spot by a ball with each successive loss.

Bambu
08-23-2008, 10:44 AM
Thats not bad at all, worth trying. Under those rules it would be pretty tough to put an equally skilled opponent away.

av84fun
08-23-2008, 12:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing I dont like most about 9 ball is the luck factor. So over the years I have changed the "house rules" (in my garage) to try to eliminate the luck as much as possible. IMHO, these rules work very well because each win is earned more legitimately. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should play, but this works well for me and the guys I play with. If anyone has any better ideas, I am all for suggestions.

1. No lucky shots- If you make a lucky shot, opponent has the
option to take control of table, or let you shoot again.
(Lucky secondary balls are ok.)
2. Two way shots are ok, as long as 1 or 2 of the balls you call
go in. (You cannot call more than 2 balls per shot.)
3. Loser Breaks-this gives whoever is losing, a better chance to
catch up.
4. 9-Ball on the break gives you ball in hand, not a win.

</div></div>

I am very much in favor of rule changes in 9 Ball. Mine would differ from yours in some respects.

1. 9 on the break spots but the breaker continues the inning from where the CB lies. If the CB lies on or near the foot spot, the 9 spots on the head spot.

2. Call ball and pocket. Secondary luck-ins stay down but do not prevent ending the inning if the called ball does not go.

3. 2-way calls allowed. Pocketing either continues the inning.

4. Alternate break. As is the case in nearly all major sports, both competitors receive an equal opportunity to compete. The loser of a rack should not be granted any advantage...and neither should the winner.

5. The rack position should be changed. I'm not sure whether placing the 9 Ball on the spot is the answer but certainly positioning the 1 Ball at a place other than the foot spot is necessary. Determining the correct position could be easily accomplished.

9 Ball is not nearly as "luck-infested" as some think. If all that much luck was involved then the same couple of dozen players...in the WORLD...wouldn't be winning the vast majority of events.

Anyone want to play Efren races to 2 for a dime a set??? (-:

But when luck can be reduced, it should be.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
08-23-2008, 12:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spot the loser the 8ball if he loses again after breaking. Keep lowering the spot by a ball with each successive loss. </div></div>

That's a gambling oriented weight issue not a "rule set" issue. No Rules of the Game should involve granting an advantage to either competitor.

Regards,
Jim

Bambu
08-23-2008, 02:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing I dont like most about 9 ball is the luck factor. So over the years I have changed the "house rules" (in my garage) to try to eliminate the luck as much as possible. IMHO, these rules work very well because each win is earned more legitimately. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should play, but this works well for me and the guys I play with. If anyone has any better ideas, I am all for suggestions.

1. No lucky shots- If you make a lucky shot, opponent has the
option to take control of table, or let you shoot again.
(Lucky secondary balls are ok.)
2. Two way shots are ok, as long as 1 or 2 of the balls you call
go in. (You cannot call more than 2 balls per shot.)
3. Loser Breaks-this gives whoever is losing, a better chance to
catch up.
4. 9-Ball on the break gives you ball in hand, not a win.

</div></div>

I am very much in favor of rule changes in 9 Ball. Mine would differ from yours in some respects.

1. 9 on the break spots but the breaker continues the inning from where the CB lies. If the CB lies on or near the foot spot, the 9 spots on the head spot.

2. Call ball and pocket. Secondary luck-ins stay down but do not prevent ending the inning if the called ball does not go.

3. 2-way calls allowed. Pocketing either continues the inning.

4. Alternate break. As is the case in nearly all major sports, both competitors receive an equal opportunity to compete. The loser of a rack should not be granted any advantage...and neither should the winner.

5. The rack position should be changed. I'm not sure whether placing the 9 Ball on the spot is the answer but certainly positioning the 1 Ball at a place other than the foot spot is necessary. Determining the correct position could be easily accomplished.

9 Ball is not nearly as "luck-infested" as some think. If all that much luck was involved then the same couple of dozen players...in the WORLD...wouldn't be winning the vast majority of events.

Anyone want to play Efren races to 2 for a dime a set??? (-:

But when luck can be reduced, it should be.

Regards,
Jim</div></div>


I could live with those variations. The main things are the lucky shots, and no win for the 9 on the break. The rest isnt so important.

Sid_Vicious
08-23-2008, 02:32 PM
I like the alternating beaks proposal. Beyond that, I like nineball rules as they exist today. Whacking at the pack for luck is more dangerous IMO to the shooter as playing for an "honest" run. What's left after the smash for luck is likely to give the opponent his win after the table is opened up. 9B is a fast, loose game, more for spectator fun than anything. jm2c...sid

Forgot to say though, the proposal of giving the loser a ball spot(8) makes the field more interesting, as long as there is no wager involved. It's never made sense to me to have strong team mates in warm-up, run over his practice opponent, sitting them down with nothing positive gotten from warming up except to feel a loss. sv

Bambu
08-24-2008, 05:29 AM
When theres luck involved(hail mary shot)I cant call that a legitimate win. Shots also go in as unintended banks, or even around the table and in. I just hate that. For me its not really about wack the pack luck, but more about unintended balls going in. Why reward a shooter for a lucky shot? I just dont see it, unless its amongst lower level players.

New2Pool
08-24-2008, 10:33 AM
If you are wanting to get mediocre players to wager against you I would suspect that you would scare off more people than you would gain by taking the luck out of the game. You want the college kids and newbies like me to think that we can get lucky and take some games from you. Most of the time we will not be able to do so but without that illusion why do we want to throw our money away in the first place?

For professional tournaments I don't see a lot of guys just banging it in anyway but I don't think most pro's would be opposed to the rules because it would not make a difference to most of them.

For amateur tournaments you get back to the same thing as gambling. Right now if I enter a tournament I know I am not good enough to win it 99 times out of a hundred (OK, less than that but let me dream). But I also know that if I enter a tournament with a weak field I could win it with a little luck.

As much as it sucks to lose because of luck it does make the game more interesting for the lesser players. Which is most of us.

Just a view from the other side of the skill spectrum.

JJFSTAR
08-24-2008, 12:02 PM
I am in favor of calling ball & pocket in 9 ball seems that it is the only exception in the game and why should that be? It has never made any sense to me that in every other game you have to call indicate or otherwise make known what ball is going in what pocket. I can live with the rules and they are ok but I think the ball & pocket rule should be applied to the game just like any other.

It is probably because it is just such a fast paced game that this is true but who knows maybe Shamos would know. The 9 ball on the break is quickly vanishing as a win in pro pool we never play that way neither is an 8 ball break a win. It is a win in our league but we don’t play that in practice. To having it give you ball in hand I say “ehh maybe; it is something to try” but we play spot it you made a ball you retain your shot that all you get, you play it as it lies. Looser breaks again ehh I like alternating breaks but I would give it a shot.

As for having 2 way shots are ok I would say it would be more beneficial to the game to leave that out if you are going to start calling ball & pocket. It puts luck back in and you are trying to take it out.

And finally av84fun why do you say the 1 ball shouldn’t be on the foot? I know I have seen ESPN2 the 9 ball on the foot but why? Just curious; seems to me all games strait, 8, one pocket, bank and all the other games have the head ball on the foot so why change it up for 9 ball?

And finally remember av84fun that the lower the skill level the more slop happens in the first place simply because there are more innings to the game. On TV we are watching pro’s; the luck factor is microscopic compared to a “C” and a “B” player slugging it out on an 8ft table in a bar.

JWasson
08-24-2008, 12:13 PM
9-Ball is just that, "9-Ball". If you alter the rules, the game will no longer be 9-Ball but something different. Those of us that consider ourselves 9-Ball players don't rely on luck to attempt to accomplish our goals. The 9-Ball rules as we know them were carefully thought out and a lot of us have spend decades mastering our individual techniques. The new game that has been invented within these posts definately sounds like a lot of fun to play, but it isn't 9-Ball any more.
Come on guys (and possibly gals) figure out the rules and give it a new name.. It does sound like fun.

av84fun
08-24-2008, 12:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am in favor of calling ball & pocket in 9 ball seems that it is the only exception in the game and why should that be? It has never made any sense to me that in every other game you have to call indicate or otherwise make known what ball is going in what pocket. I can live with the rules and they are ok but I think the ball & pocket rule should be applied to the game just like any other.

It is probably because it is just such a fast paced game that this is true but who knows maybe Shamos would know. The 9 ball on the break is quickly vanishing as a win in pro pool we never play that way neither is an 8 ball break a win. It is a win in our league but we don’t play that in practice. To having it give you ball in hand I say “ehh maybe; it is something to try” but we play spot it you made a ball you retain your shot that all you get, you play it as it lies. Looser breaks again ehh I like alternating breaks but I would give it a shot.

As for having 2 way shots are ok I would say it would be more beneficial to the game to leave that out if you are going to start calling ball & pocket. It puts luck back in and you are trying to take it out.

And finally av84fun why do you say the 1 ball shouldn’t be on the foot? I know I have seen ESPN2 the 9 ball on the foot but why? Just curious; seems to me all games strait, 8, one pocket, bank and all the other games have the head ball on the foot so why change it up for 9 ball?

And finally remember av84fun that the lower the skill level the more slop happens in the first place simply because there are more innings to the game. On TV we are watching pro’s; the luck factor is microscopic compared to a “C” and a “B” player slugging it out on an 8ft table in a bar.
</div></div>

Moving the rack would prevent the "automatic wing ball and/or 1 ball" that happens all to often.

IMHO, making a ball on the break should be as random an event as possilbe wherein break skill leads to greater ball travel and therefore, a greater liklihood of dropping one or more.

On your luck factor point, I agree with your general premise but my point is that at any level of play, the luck factor should be reduced as much as possible.

In pro matches, there are plenty of unavoidable opportunities for lucky rolls and roadmap layouts after the breaks.

So, for where luck can be reduced, it should be.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
08-24-2008, 12:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9-Ball is just that, "9-Ball". If you alter the rules, the game will no longer be 9-Ball but something different. Those of us that consider ourselves 9-Ball players don't rely on luck to attempt to accomplish our goals. The 9-Ball rules as we know them were carefully thought out and a lot of us have spend decades mastering our individual techniques. The new game that has been invented within these posts definately sounds like a lot of fun to play, but it isn't 9-Ball any more.
Come on guys (and possibly gals) figure out the rules and give it a new name.. It does sound like fun. </div></div>

Actually, some of the suggested rules...called shots and spotting the 9 Ball for example, are not new at all.

Those rules were in effect in numerous events back in the Mosconi/Fats/Lassiter era.

So, the "new" way to play should result in giving the game a different name...like "Luck Ball", for example...not the other way around.

Regards,
Jim

Sid_Vicious
08-24-2008, 01:12 PM
"IMHO, making a ball on the break should be as random an event as possilbe wherein break skill leads to greater ball travel and therefore, a greater liklihood of dropping one or more."

What we have in 9B is much the same for 7B, fewer balls to "impress" into a pocket, using finesse rather that power. It is my honest opinion that the nature of moving back to anything less that the traditional 8B(15 balls) will logically produce travel for balls to find a hole. Instead of manufacturing a way to limt this, why not simply play a different game? Seriously, we play what we want, so why get pissed at balls finding a hole in 9B? Forward racking with the 9 on the spot seems acceptable and effecient, I can live with that myself. Let's do this though...adjust for 7B as well. It bores me to no end to see world beaters slick in a ball on the break and run out in 7B. Sucks for a spectator sport by anyone knowing the game of pool...sid

av84fun
08-24-2008, 01:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"IMHO, making a ball on the break should be as random an event as possilbe wherein break skill leads to greater ball travel and therefore, a greater liklihood of dropping one or more."

What we have in 9B is much the same for 7B, fewer balls to "impress" into a pocket, using finesse rather that power. It is my honest opinion that the nature of moving back to anything less that the traditional 8B(15 balls) will logically produce travel for balls to find a hole. Instead of manufacturing a way to limt this, why not simply play a different game? Seriously, we play what we want, so why get pissed at balls finding a hole in 9B? Forward racking with the 9 on the spot seems acceptable and effecient, I can live with that myself. Let's do this though...adjust for 7B as well. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>It bores me to no end to see world beaters slick in a ball on the break and run out in 7B. Sucks for a spectator sport by anyone knowing the game of pool...sid</span> </div></div>

Yes!! And the theory for 7B appealing to viewers because the racks are quick is a myth and a fraud.

Here's the deal. Rack time has nothing to do with viewer wishes. It has everything to do with the fact that it costs money...a LOT of money, to pay TV crews to tape the matches.

7 Ball was the choice of the PRODUCERS merely for the purpose of insuring that the matches/tournaments would be over in less time and that, therefore, their production costs would be lower.

Viewer boredom with "long" 9 ball rack time...if true...which is not true IMHO...could easily have been solved with editing.

BUT, you have to tape the entire match before you can edit it!!!
So editing does not reduce production costs...and if fact, increases it because people have to be paid to do the editing.

Regards,
Jim

JWasson
08-24-2008, 07:43 PM
7 Ball is more of an exhibition than a match in my opinion. More of a "see what I can do" type of game. Not that it is a bad thing. I actually invested in a proper 7 ball rack along with the TV version striped 7 ball and enjoy popping the balls into pockets. It's quick and useful for practice if nothing else, but then I enjoy playing 3 ball too, so having a game with less than 15 balls is not an issue with some of us.

Bambu
08-24-2008, 08:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are wanting to get mediocre players to wager against you I would suspect that you would scare off more people than you would gain by taking the luck out of the game. You want the college kids and newbies like me to think that we can get lucky and take some games from you. Most of the time we will not be able to do so but without that illusion why do we want to throw our money away in the first place?

For professional tournaments I don't see a lot of guys just banging it in anyway but I don't think most pro's would be opposed to the rules because it would not make a difference to most of them.

For amateur tournaments you get back to the same thing as gambling. Right now if I enter a tournament I know I am not good enough to win it 99 times out of a hundred (OK, less than that but let me dream). But I also know that if I enter a tournament with a weak field I could win it with a little luck.

As much as it sucks to lose because of luck it does make the game more interesting for the lesser players. Which is most of us.

Just a view from the other side of the skill spectrum.</div></div>

Youre right new2pool, but I am not trying to sucker anyone into games. Not saying I've never done it, but those days are behind me. And I understand that taking the luck out of the game isnt fair to some beginners(especially in a tournament setting).
For that reason, I wouldnt recommend a local pool room using those rules for a tournament.

But for say the tri state tour, viking, joss, or any pro tour......I see no reason to reward a shooter for a lucky shot. I hate winning on luck. It means I didnt accomplish what I wanted, a clean run. Dont get me wrong, I take the win just like the next guy. But sometimes the sets go hill hill, and one lucky game takes the whole match. Lord knows, I have lost a few of those throughout the years. Whats funny is how I remember the losses but somehow block out the wins. (I'm sure I have won plenty on luck myself, but I seem to have a selective memory). But thats just BS, winning on luck is no way to win. I would seriously rather take the loss, and still feel good knowing I cant be beaten on a lucky shot.

Bambu
08-24-2008, 08:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9-Ball is just that, "9-Ball". If you alter the rules, the game will no longer be 9-Ball but something different. Those of us that consider ourselves 9-Ball players don't rely on luck to attempt to accomplish our goals. The 9-Ball rules as we know them were carefully thought out and a lot of us have spend decades mastering our individual techniques. The new game that has been invented within these posts definately sounds like a lot of fun to play, but it isn't 9-Ball any more.
Come on guys (and possibly gals) figure out the rules and give it a new name.. It does sound like fun. </div></div>

Actually, some of the suggested rules...called shots and spotting the 9 Ball for example, are not new at all.

Those rules were in effect in numerous events back in the Mosconi/Fats/Lassiter era.

So, the "new" way to play should result in giving the game a different name...like "Luck Ball", for example...not the other way around.

Regards,
Jim</div></div>

Never knew you had to call pockets back then. Thats good to know Jim, thanks. Also good points about the wing balls and racking the 9 on the spot. That might help, but I dont think making the wing balls is a lucky aspect of 9 ball. They dont drop in on autopilot like in 7 ball, you need the correct speed. And thats not full power, for me its about 3/4's. So I dunno if thats the answer either, I never racked em that way. I would want to see how the balls spread from that position if you hit em good.

Its a pretty bad feeling when you know you hit em real good, got a great spread, cue ball mid table, easy shot at the 1, but still a dry break....just a mouth watering run for your opponent. I had a pretty decent power break off the short rail, but I abandoned it for those reasons.

skin
08-24-2008, 08:52 PM
Buddy Hall has some good observations on the histroy of how things got where they are today and some ways to fix the game by going back to the old ways. Here:

http://www.azbilliards.com/buddyhall/buddy13.php

I happen to agree with him, especially about having to shoot from the kitchen and about the spot shot. The ball-in-hand penalty is simply too great on many fouls. The original rules he describes are the ones I learned the game under. There was some luck involved, but nothing like now. You simply had to be a very skilled player to win consistently. Luck couldn't get you very far for very long.

Bambu
08-24-2008, 09:08 PM
Thanks, Skin. Good thoughts by Buddy Hall. I grew up with those rules too. But I have to say, I like the texas rules better. Main reason I dont like the old rules, is you dont always get a clean spot shot. Often times the pocket is blocked, or the ball you have to shoot at gets glued to another ball(not much of a penalty for scratching). Spotting balls only leads to clusters, which drags the game out. Not saying thats a bad style, but I prefer a faster paced game.

skin
08-24-2008, 09:14 PM
Bambu, one of the greatest shots to be able to pull off is when the lowest numbered ball gets spotted directly behind another ball on the spot (like the 8 behind the 9) and from the kitchen you bank it off the side rail into the opposite side corner pocket. Sweet! I used to practice that shot and the spot shot every day because of how often they came up during games. Nowadays, I don't. You never have to play them.

Bambu
08-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Thanks, I remember practicing spot shots too. And I know the bank shot youre talking about, but its pretty risky. Unless youre an insane banker or a 1 pocket player, the safety usually yields a better percentage in a situation like that.

I am also pretty sure that after those rules we went to full blown ball in hand, but still spotted balls that would stay down today. I can remember playing cheap BIH safeties off the glued balls on the spot.

av84fun
08-24-2008, 09:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9-Ball is just that, "9-Ball". If you alter the rules, the game will no longer be 9-Ball but something different. Those of us that consider ourselves 9-Ball players don't rely on luck to attempt to accomplish our goals. The 9-Ball rules as we know them were carefully thought out and a lot of us have spend decades mastering our individual techniques. The new game that has been invented within these posts definately sounds like a lot of fun to play, but it isn't 9-Ball any more.
Come on guys (and possibly gals) figure out the rules and give it a new name.. It does sound like fun. </div></div>

Actually, some of the suggested rules...called shots and spotting the 9 Ball for example, are not new at all.

Those rules were in effect in numerous events back in the Mosconi/Fats/Lassiter era.

So, the "new" way to play should result in giving the game a different name...like "Luck Ball", for example...not the other way around.

Regards,
Jim</div></div>

Never knew you had to call pockets back then. Thats good to know Jim, thanks. Also good points about the wing balls and racking the 9 on the spot. That might help, but I dont think making the wing balls is a lucky aspect of 9 ball. They dont drop in on autopilot like in 7 ball, you need the correct speed. And thats not full power, for me its about 3/4's. So I dunno if thats the answer either, I never racked em that way. I would want to see how the balls spread from that position if you hit em good.

Its a pretty bad feeling when you know you hit em real good, got a great spread, cue ball mid table, easy shot at the 1, but still a dry break....just a mouth watering run for your opponent. I had a pretty decent power break off the short rail, but I abandoned it for those reasons. </div></div>

Right Bambu...making the wing ball is not "luck" and I shouldn't have lumped it in with lucky aspects of the game.

You are also correct that there is SOME skill involved in figuring out of the wing goes but typically, I can get the speed in 4 breaks...or 2 if the rack is tapped.

(-:
Jim

Sid_Vicious
08-24-2008, 09:32 PM
"And I understand that taking the luck out of the game isnt fair to some beginners(especially in a tournament setting)."

Bambu...The jest of this thread never really orbited around beginners, now did it. I think that about everyone here would welcome a bit of so-called edge for a banger to whack for the nine or anything to have them proceed. Maybe I'm wrong...sid

Sid_Vicious
08-24-2008, 09:36 PM
"Right Bambu...making the wing ball is not "luck" and I shouldn't have lumped it in with lucky aspects of the game."

Fact is that many, many players don't read the rack and execute it for the wing balls. The edge is still to the intellegent player, much like other facets of any game. Besides, the cloth and contitions alter many "reads"...sid~~~not many for the intent player with "intent"

skin
08-24-2008, 09:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am also pretty sure that after those rules we went to full blown ball in hand, but still spotted balls that would stay down today. I can remember playing cheap BIH safeties off the glued balls on the spot. </div></div>

I think you are right about that. I am trying to remember accurately, it was so long ago, but I also believe you always got ball-in-hand after the opponent's second foul in a row, like not making legal contact or scratching after a roll out. It was pretty rare to get ball-in hand, nothing like nowadyas.

Bambu
08-24-2008, 09:48 PM
Thanks Jim. I'm sure you would adapt to the table speed faster than me. Any idea on what the pros average for making a ball on the break in 9 ball? Not sure but I heard somewhere it was around 60%, which seems fair enough to me.

Bambu
08-24-2008, 09:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am also pretty sure that after those rules we went to full blown ball in hand, but still spotted balls that would stay down today. I can remember playing cheap BIH safeties off the glued balls on the spot. </div></div>

I think you are right about that. I am trying to remember accurately, it was so long ago, but I also believe you always got ball-in-hand after the opponent's second foul in a row, like not making legal contact or scratching after a roll out. It was pretty rare to get ball-in hand, nothing like nowadyas.</div></div>

I cant be certain, but I think you might be talking about the old chicago rules. A scratch after a push out gives up ball in hand?

skin
08-24-2008, 09:58 PM
Bambu, I don't know what it was called. It was just the way the game was played back then. If the opponent fouls you could make him shoot again. If he fouls a second time, it's ball in hand. That's how I remember it, anyway. :o)

Bambu
08-24-2008, 10:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"And I understand that taking the luck out of the game isnt fair to some beginners(especially in a tournament setting)."

Bambu...The jest of this thread never really orbited around beginners, now did it. I think that about everyone here would welcome a bit of so-called edge for a banger to whack for the nine or anything to have them proceed. Maybe I'm wrong...sid
</div></div>

Absolutely, Sid. Everyone regardless of experience deserves to be heard. And new2 made some good points, no doubt. And thats why I dont say this is "the" way the game should be played. I understand that luck is a positive thing for a beginner, and I wouldnt want to remove any enjoyable facet from the game. In a social setting, luck adds excitement to the game.

For most experienced players though, I dont think they get the same sort of thrill out of making a lucky ball in any setting. Making a lucky ball is almost more of a setback, a favorable disappointment? An annoyance? Or my personal favorite, pretending a lucky shot was simply "plan B."

Bambu
08-24-2008, 10:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu, I don't know what it was called. It was just the way the game was played back then. If the opponent fouls you could make him shoot again. If he fouls a second time, it's ball in hand. That's how I remember it, anyway. :o)</div></div>

Oh yeah, I think that was just push out style 9-ball.

av84fun
08-25-2008, 12:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Right Bambu...making the wing ball is not "luck" and I shouldn't have lumped it in with lucky aspects of the game."

Fact is that many, many players don't read the rack and execute it for the wing balls. The edge is still to the intellegent player, much like other facets of any game. Besides, the cloth and contitions alter many "reads"...sid~~~not many for the intent player with "intent"
</div></div>

Agreed, but the public tends to adopt rules played in pro matches...except for who breaks which goes both ways in pro events but seems to be exclusively winner breaks in the general public outside league play at least.

So, the pros certainly do know how to read racks and do so.

A great many people complain that 9 Ball is too easy for advanced players...which isn't true...but that's another thread.

The point is that there is avoidable luck involved in the current, typical 9 Ball sets which can and should be changed.

As stated earlier, making the wing ball/1 ball is often "ON" on many tables/balls sets and that should be avoided by a rule change.

Possibly one in an opponent racks formatsolution would be to require the 1 ball to be placed above the head spot anywhere on the table's centerline as far up as where the 9 ball would be on the spot.

That way, the opponent could "pick his own poison" as far as where to place the 1 ball and the breaker's job would be to figure out a way to make a ball anyway.

In pro or other "neutral racker" matches, the rule could be as above except that the 1 ball position would be chosen randomly by the racker.

Regards,
Jim

1Time
08-25-2008, 02:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spot the loser the 8ball if he loses again after breaking. Keep lowering the spot by a ball with each successive loss. </div></div>

That's a gambling oriented weight issue not a "rule set" issue. No Rules of the Game should involve granting an advantage to either competitor.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>You may have misunderstood. The rule that I suggested would apply to all players (in Bambu's garage), not just to one. In any event, I suggested this in response to Bambu's request for a 9ball rule change for his garage, not for the game of 9ball at large. Giving weight like this in a friendly game can encourage participation, especially when one player is consistently stronger than another. While it does not remove any luck from the game, it's not hard to see that its use could be appreciated.

Regarding 9ball rule changes at large, there was nothing in the original post that indicated this was the thread's topic. And so I did not address this. In some of the better moderated forums outside of BD, posting off topic with the intent of changing the thread's subject is known as threadjacking and it is frowned upon or not tolerated. Of course here at BD pretty much anything goes.

av84fun
08-26-2008, 12:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spot the loser the 8ball if he loses again after breaking. Keep lowering the spot by a ball with each successive loss. </div></div>

That's a gambling oriented weight issue not a "rule set" issue. No Rules of the Game should involve granting an advantage to either competitor.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>You may have misunderstood. The rule that I suggested would apply to all players (in Bambu's garage), not just to one. In any event, I suggested this in response to Bambu's request for a 9ball rule change for his garage, not for the game of 9ball at large. Giving weight like this in a friendly game can encourage participation, especially when one player is consistently stronger than another. While it does not remove any luck from the game, it's not hard to see that its use could be appreciated.

Regarding 9ball rule changes at large, there was nothing in the original post that indicated this was the thread's topic. And so I did not address this. In some of the better moderated forums outside of BD, posting off topic with the intent of changing the thread's subject is known as threadjacking and it is frowned upon or not tolerated. Of course here at BD pretty much anything goes. </div></div>

Well, you are absolutely incorrect and your incessant whining about the nature and content of posts here is really boring.

Contrary to you tunnel vision supposition that there was nothing in the original post to indicate that it had to do with "9 Ball at large"...how about the FIRST SENTENCE which stated...

"The thing I dont like most about 9 ball is the luck factor."

Do you see anything in that sentence that limited the post to 9 Ball as played in his garage????

As for your swipe and the moderation on this forum, IMHO it is a DARN sight better than the inconsistent, unfair and obviously biased enforcement of rules on other well known forums.

And I know perfectly well what thread hijacking is...sir. It includes causing threads to descend to petty deviations, hair spitting and whining that you seem to enjoy undertaking.

Why don't you just back off of the petty "crap" to use your own language...and spend more time and intellectual energy in an effort to come up with better ideas than the one you posted here?

Jim

Bambu
08-28-2008, 12:58 PM
I dont see why the public has to adopt the same rule sets the pros use. I never knew 9 ball to be a call shot game, but I dont imagine many pros objecting to using those rules. I could be wrong, but the game might get a little more respect if lucky shots didnt count. I dont know why nobody ever pushed for some sort of "pro" rules with as little luck as possible. Or has that been done unsuccessfully, and I just dont know about it? I'm not pushing to change the rules here, I realize my limits. I am just curious about the history of the rules, and the reasons given when the lucky shots were brought back to the game.

av84fun
08-28-2008, 01:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont see why the public has to adopt the same rule sets the pros use. I never knew 9 ball to be a call shot game, but I dont imagine many pros objecting to using those rules. I could be wrong, but the game might get a little more respect if lucky shots didnt count. I dont know why nobody ever pushed for some sort of "pro" rules with as little luck as possible. Or has that been done unsuccessfully, and I just dont know about it? I'm not pushing to change the rules here, I realize my limits. I am just curious about the history of the rules, and the reasons given when the lucky shots were brought back to the game. </div></div>

The public doesn't have to adopt pro rules and God knows the pros play by different rule sets and that leagues have their own rules.

I just meant that the public tends to be influenced by the major rules used in pro events.

Regards,
Jim

PRQL8R
08-28-2008, 04:28 PM
I have often heard that most pros really would prefer a set of rules to the game that more completely illiminated the more glaring aspects of the luck factor. Some missed called shots are still going to find their way to the designated pocket no matter what you do. For me a potential wish list of luck reducing rules might be something like this...

9-ball:

• Break from anywhere above the headstring. If you can make wing- balls or balls with a slower more controlled break...more power to you.

• All flukes on break are respotted (including the 9) in descending order. Breaker then continues to shoot.

• Designated pocket of the object ball (if not obvious) must be called , the object ball is of course obvious being the lowest numbered ball.

• In the normal progression of the game all flukes are respotted in descending order (if necessary) with loss of turn if the called shot is not made.

• No two way calls are permitted. You can’t just hope to get lucky on one or the other.

• It is of course acceptable to call cannons or caroms where the potted ball is not the lowest numbered ball on the table.

Effectively the same rules would apply for 8-ball with the exceptions:

• Should a player fluke any of their own balls while shooting, such balls will then be respotted if the designated ball has not also been potted.

• Should a player fluke any of their opponents balls while shooting, such balls will then remain pocketed.

As long as there is some form of handicap system, reasonably applied to the matches, these rules could be equally applicable to both beginning and more advanced players. ...Bob

Bambu
08-29-2008, 06:52 AM
Thanks for the input Bob. But I must disagree with a few things. First, if you re-spot all fluke balls on the break, the breaker is at a disadvantage for having sunk 2 or more balls. Re-spotting other lucky secondary balls(or called 2 way shots for that matter) may also put the shooter at a disadvantage. I dont see a called 2-way shot as being lucky, or something that may work against a shooter. Re-spotting balls in general only leads to clusters, and a dragged out, defensive style game.

Bambu
08-29-2008, 06:55 AM
The pros play with different rule sets? I havent seen that yet. Not enough 9 ball on tv I guess.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont see why the public has to adopt the same rule sets the pros use. I never knew 9 ball to be a call shot game, but I dont imagine many pros objecting to using those rules. I could be wrong, but the game might get a little more respect if lucky shots didnt count. I dont know why nobody ever pushed for some sort of "pro" rules with as little luck as possible. Or has that been done unsuccessfully, and I just dont know about it? I'm not pushing to change the rules here, I realize my limits. I am just curious about the history of the rules, and the reasons given when the lucky shots were brought back to the game. </div></div>

The public doesn't have to adopt pro rules and God knows the pros play by different rule sets and that leagues have their own rules.

I just meant that the public tends to be influenced by the major rules used in pro events.

Regards,
Jim</div></div>

PRQL8R
08-29-2008, 09:22 AM
Lots of very interesting options players are putting forward here, but this would simply be my own personal preferance for a wish list. Although I certainly enjoy making a break and run... the ones that give me the greatest satisfaction are the ones where I really do have to run out everything even when it doesn't even look like such a run is even there. My background being primarily in snooker... I really do thrive on and most enjoy those extended safety games that perhaps drive some other players a bit crazy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Not likely to see all aspects of my wish list come to fruition but it does look like there may be some more tightening up of the games rules in the future. Appropriately enough for pool... "different strokes for different folks". ... Bob

Deeman3
08-29-2008, 10:17 AM
I might guess that nine ball has survived and thrived because the rules are probably not that bad. People who like rather pure skill events may play other games but if you want a new game, just come up with the new rules and call the game something else, as was done in Texas Express 9 ball years ago. If it catches on, it is superiour, if not, there may be reasons for the popularity of the present rules.

Bambu
08-29-2008, 01:32 PM
Having to call shots wouldnt make 9-ball a pure skill event. There is still plenty of luck when it comes to what you leave after a miss. I agree with you Dee, theres nothing "wrong" with the rules per se. But at higher levels of play, the called shot aspect would improve them(IMO). I think the reason texas rules caught on so fast was that the public enjoys the lucky aspect of the game. Nothing wrong with that, but I dont see the logic in rewarding any run out player(or especially a pro)for a lucky shot.

PRQL8R
08-29-2008, 06:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might guess that nine ball has survived and thrived because the rules are probably not that bad.</div></div>

Actually Dee I totally agree with you and as long as we're all playing by the same rules... it's all good with me.

However, giving myself free reign to speculate on possible changes that would appeal personally to me is why I said...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but this would simply be my own personal preferance for a wish list.</div></div> ...Bob

av84fun
08-30-2008, 08:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having to call shots wouldnt make 9-ball a pure skill event. There is still plenty of luck when it comes to what you leave after a miss. I agree with you Dee, theres nothing "wrong" with the rules per se. But at higher levels of play, the called shot aspect would improve them(IMO). <span style='font-size: 11pt'>I think the reason texas rules caught on so fast was that the public enjoys the lucky aspect of the game.</span> Nothing wrong with that, but I dont see the logic in rewarding any run out player(or especially a pro)for a lucky shot. </div></div>

I agree with you on that. Fans LOVE it when their player/team lucks out.

But the problem is the 10 Ball movement which is founded on the notion that 9 Ball has too high a luck component.

Of course, adding a ball in a rotation game is going to make it more difficult and the 9 doesn't seem to go on the break as "often" (35-1 isn't "often" which is about the odds with a proper rack).

But show me the FANS at 10 Ball tournaments. How many 10 Ball events have been televised on ESPN?

Here's the deal. 10 Ball takes longer to play. The TV crews are paid essentially by the hour so the longer the matches, the more it costs to produce the event.

THAT is why the TV matches are races to 7...or to FIVE in the Mosconi. The promotors just can't afford longer sets.

So, 10 Ball is NEVER going to "catch on" with the public which doesn't play it and can't watch it (except on TAR once in a while).

So, 9 Ball is "the devil we know" and it makes sense to fix a few valid rules issues than to abandon the game for one that will make the sport LESS popular.

Just my $0.02

Jim

Snapshot9
09-03-2008, 07:23 AM
Take the 'luck' out of 9 ball, and you'll lose half of the players that play it, the lower half. It will make it easier for the top half to win.

Think about how many play 9 ball as compared to 14.1. Put in all these additional rules and that will be what happens to 9 ball being played.

I mean this is just an exercise in 'futility', right? Because you will still play 9 ball the same way when you're done? And most people are not going to agree with 'your' rules for 9 ball, especially for money!!!

9 ball was designed to be fast, fun, with some luck involved, and a good money game. Let it be. 9 ball when played well, has VERY LITTLE LUCK involved with it, because the better players oontrol the game better.

av84fun
09-03-2008, 09:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snapshot9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take the 'luck' out of 9 ball, and you'll lose half of the players that play it, the lower half. It will make it easier for the top half to win.

Think about how many play 9 ball as compared to 14.1. Put in all these additional rules and that will be what happens to 9 ball being played.

I mean this is just an exercise in 'futility', right? Because you will still play 9 ball the same way when you're done? <span style='font-size: 14pt'>And most people are not going to agree with 'your' rules for 9 ball, especially for money!!!</span>
9 ball was designed to be fast, fun, with some luck involved, and a good money game. Let it be. 9 ball when played well, has VERY LITTLE LUCK involved with it, because the better players oontrol the game better. </div></div>

Well, I don't think that either you or I are in a position to determine what "most people" will think.

9 Ball is losing its steam as a gambling game. Moore and Bartram are in a match at the moment for $20k....10 Ball not 9 Ball.

We agree that luck is an attractive attribute to any sport. The debate is how much.

Some of the rules I suggested are not new but rather have existed in the past. And spotting the 9 on the break has been the rule at the TOC for years.

But the overriding fact is that the popularity of pool at both the amateur and pro levels is weakening badly. 9 Ball is all the public sees on TV.

The opposite of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." is equally true. If what you are doing isn't working, do something else.

As for futility, the only thing that is futile is inaction when things are going pooly which they obviously are in the pool world.

Regards,
Jim

Sid_Vicious
09-04-2008, 01:41 PM
I think what he was saying was the "most", meaning the entire 9-ball playing population playing for money, consisting in talent levels of middle to low, are in numbers, a majority compared to the upper(complaining) players. If these proposed rules were to be enacted totally, it is my opinion that the 9-ball league systems of 9B would lose upwards to half their teams. A big number of the small to middle fish would also wane from being snared by the sharks as well. IMSO, 9-ball rules as they are today are a necessity to maintain the game, at least on the local level. jm2c...sid

BTW, this a little off topic, but I've had players ask that safeties in 8-B be limited in number cuz a really good safety player can take all the fun out of them playing at all. I used to feel the same way, but I got wise and became a lot better at safeties, so now I get the complaints. What I'm saying, is that there are arguements on both camps, the low-to-average players getting safetied to death in 8B, and the upper levels losing because of slop in 9B. Both 8 & 9 are animals of a different breed, that's pool, which makes it more interesting. sv