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av84fun
08-23-2008, 03:46 PM
1. Is the default font size as large as you would like to to be in term of readability...

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>or would you prefer this size?(11 pt.)</span>

2. IN THE DEFAULT FONT SIZE;

A. IS THIS TEXT EASIER FOR YOU TO READ AND
B. REGARFDLESS OF YOUR ANSWSER ABOVE, ASSUMING THAT THE MESSAGE CONVEYED IS POLITE, DO YOU CONSIDER ALL CAPS TO BE FUNDAMENTALLY RUDE?

Thanks,
Jim

Soflasnapper
08-23-2008, 03:54 PM
1 is readable for me.

2 a) both are easy, #2 is not easier for me
b) all caps is harder to read, and a style faux paus, but not inherently rude whatsoever (IMO)

sack316
08-23-2008, 05:36 PM
The default font size is just fine for me, and I'm sure most who would have trouble reading it may already have their resolution and settings to where it is acceptable to them as well (i.e. what I'm seeing and what you are seeing may be very different things, even though the forum's defaults are the same).

2a.) No that text is not easier to read for me personally

b) depends on the reader. To a younger generation coming up on "netiquette" typing in caps is considered rude, as it symbolizes yelling or a harsh tone. To someone unfamiliar with netiquette, it may have no bearing or difference whatsoever. Many of us can discern the difference between someone being "rude" and someone who just forgot their caps lock was on... but some can't. So I think the answer to this question is simply in the eye of the beholder.

Sack

1Time
08-23-2008, 06:56 PM
I adjust settings in my browser (Opera) to make this site easier to read.

Regarding the use of CAPITAL LETTERS throughout the entirety of one's reply, here are the current top 2 Google returns for the words "capital", "letters", and "shout".

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/do-not-use-all-capitals.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps

A few quotes from these sites that cut to the chase.

"If you USE ALL CAPS in your email or message board posts, you will immediately make yourself seem inexperienced or ignorant. Most experienced computer users consider the use of all capital letters to be the Internet equivalent of shouting."

"Capital letters are best left for their intended usage and, sparingly, to emphasize a particular word or phrase."

"... it became solely identified with "shouting" or attention-seeking behaviour. As a result, netiquette generally discourages the use of all caps."

av84fun
08-23-2008, 10:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I adjust settings in my browser (Opera) to make this site easier to read.

Regarding the use of CAPITAL LETTERS throughout the entirety of one's reply, here are the current top 2 Google returns for the words "capital", "letters", and "shout".

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/do-not-use-all-capitals.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps

A few quotes from these sites that cut to the chase.

"If you USE ALL CAPS in your email or message board posts, you will immediately make yourself seem inexperienced or ignorant. Most experienced computer users consider the use of all capital letters to be the Internet equivalent of shouting."

"Capital letters are best left for their intended usage and, sparingly, to emphasize a particular word or phrase."

"... it became solely identified with "shouting" or attention-seeking behaviour. As a result, netiquette generally discourages the use of all caps." </div></div>

I will just note that you elected to only partially respond to the Poll questions. Is that rude?

And you posted the above links in another thread.

Is redundancy considered rude?

(-:

Lighten up pardner...life is too short.

Jim

sack316
08-23-2008, 11:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is redundancy considered rude?

</div></div>

I sure hope not, for the sake of some of our lefty pals over on the NPR side /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ehhh, sorry. I'm too weak to resist that one right now.

Sack

av84fun
08-24-2008, 12:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is redundancy considered rude?

</div></div>

I sure hope not, for the sake of some of our lefty pals over on the NPR side /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ehhh, sorry. I'm too weak to resist that one right now.
Sack </div></div>

I haven't had the nerve to hop over to NPR here. On...ummm...the other forum...it's very much like Several Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

But typing caps in the film title above begs the question as to whether such caps...or those that begin sentences for example, are considered "partial shouting." Like, you S...tart to shout but then lower your voice.

Ya think?

If the answer is "No, to shout you have to use all caps then it must follow that the following is NOt SHOUTINg. Right?

Sorry but "netiquette" is one of the silliest concepts of all time.

It's like a rule in a prison that the inmates have to lift their pinky fingers when they dring their tea! (-:

And do I equate the manners and sensibilities of inmates with a large number of contributors to internet forums and chat rooms?

Absolutely not. I've never been in the slam but I would imagine that the cons are typically more polite!

Ooops. Is bold shouting too? If so, is all caps in bold considered SCREAMING????

If so, then maybe ALL CAPS IN ITALICIZED BOLD IS FOAMING AT THE MOUTH.

(-:

<span style='font-size: 8pt'>Jim</span>

1Time
08-24-2008, 12:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is redundancy considered rude? </div></div>Don't be absurd. The discussion is in two threads and directly applicable to each. What, did I crap on your little thread? Lighten up. Life is too short. When you're wrong, you're wrong. Get over it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

av84fun
08-25-2008, 12:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is redundancy considered rude? </div></div>Don't be absurd. The discussion is in two threads and directly applicable to each. What, did I crap on your little thread? Lighten up. Life is too short. When you're wrong, you're wrong. Get over it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

USING ALL CAPS IS NOT FUNDAMENTALLY RUDE EXCEPT IN THE MINDS OF SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE ADOPTED A PATENTLY SILLY NETIQUETTE CONVENTION.

YOUR POST, HOWEVER, IS CLEARY RUDE.

TOO BAD THAT THE INTERNET OFTEN BRINGS OUT THE WORST IN PEOPLE'S PERSONALITIES. IN YOUR NORMAL DAILY LIFE, YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT A <u>COMPLETE</u> JERK.

(-:

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>JIM</span>

wolfdancer
08-25-2008, 12:49 AM
careful with your remarks....when our people take over come January...
I didn't know an all caps message was rude until someone got after Hal Houle for using all caps. And I guess I bought into that because...now they do look somewhat annoying???
As for the type size...it's fine, and even the next side up might be ok....but this is the size used in most of the text that I read elsewhere.

sack316
08-25-2008, 12:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">careful with your remarks....when our people take over come January...

<span style="color: #33CCFF">I know, I know. Just making sure I get all my shots in now</span>

I didn't know an all caps message was rude until someone got after Hal Houle for using all caps. And I guess I bought into that because...now they do look somewhat annoying???

<span style="color: #33CCFF">Indeed. As rediculous and stupid as netiquette sounds, it's a part of online social networking now (this board would be a form of that, IMO). To many it makes no sense and is pointless, but it's sort of the "house rules" of talking online now. It's like a barroom regular that may think it's stupid to not be allowed to set his beer on a rail in an actual poolhall. He sees no harm in it, it's what he's used to doing, and will think the people in the poolhall are stupid for having such a rule. But you and I would consider him extremely rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate for doing such a thing. We'd probably laugh at him a little for being a newb and wish he would just leave.

Same goes for the netiquette thing. May not make sense for some, but that doesn't make it any less annoying for everyone else. And someone lacking it, most would probably react to him/her in the same way you and I would react to beer on table guy... we'd give a friendly piece of advice to let him/her know, and afterwords we'd just want him/her to leave if it kept up.

If anyone has a problem with "netiquette" they need do nothing more than get a time maching and go back some 15+ years ago and get in that discussion on the old newsgroups /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</span>

</div></div>

Sack

JJFSTAR
08-25-2008, 12:53 PM
1. I find the font size to be just fine for me I would not care if it were larger.
2A: No for me all caps are neither easier nor harder to read.
2B: No I do not consider all caps to be in and of itself fundamentally rude.

My thoughts:
I believe in proper etiquette and so do the moderators of this forum. Etiquette is different everywhere it varies from not just continent to continent but varies greatly between ethnic groups and socioeconomic groups and even sometimes from the same ethnic and socioeconomic group across town. It varies so vastly and can change instantly if one person enters or exits the room i.e.… a female or a child.

The same act can vary widely i.e.…A big belch at a formal dinner party is considered rude in the U.S.A. in most parts; however in most of Thailand if you never belched at dinner the chef might get insulted or their feelings hurt because it means you didn’t really enjoy the food.

Those who do not know or fly in the face of if they know what proper etiquette is I do not listen to nearly as much as those who do. Those who always use proper etiquette are much more highly regarded in this forum and the world. Those who understand this always try to use proper etiquette.

Netiquette is a word that describes etiquette on the internet. I would rather say netiquette than etiquette on the internet but that is a personal preference. I do not say that people who would choose to say the latter are stuck up or stupid because it would be improper etiquette and would thus make my opinion held in less regard than it is to whatever degree.

Lastly IMHO there are things that are said here that I believe to be improper etiquette as well as in most of the modern world. Remember this is all just my opinion not to be confused with facts. My list is longer but here are my top 3 faux pas.

1. Name calling; this is a no brainer and is totally unacceptable most everywhere.
2. Slighting of some ones held ideas that are esoteric in their nature. If they hold it true you should try to understand it not scoff at it. This is so you don’t go around unintentionally hurting peoples feelings.
3. Stating your opinion as if it were a fact. This is done all the time by lots of people on this forum I just give an inward chuckle because it is well known that everyone has their own take on things. So unless you are talking about facts such as CB velocity making and OB go faster your opinion isn’t any more correct than mine.

Ok I am done now my posts are too long anyway, if that is improper etiquette or netiquette if you prefer; excuse me it was unintentional.

1Time
08-25-2008, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's like a barroom regular that may think it's stupid to not be allowed to set his beer on a rail in an actual poolhall.</div></div>Interesting analogy. Reminds me of when it was common for players in a bar to set their cig on a rail and some like me sat their beer bottle in a pocket when shooting. It was cool. It was convenient. It was the norm. Ah, the good old days.

JJFSTAR
08-25-2008, 01:34 PM
Yea I remember those days when I was a kid and a smoker. I set my cig on the table to it was all good. It is funny that today someone using the table as an ashtray, a couch or a beer cozy sends me into a tirade.

av84fun
08-25-2008, 07:40 PM
wolfdancer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> careful with your remarks....when our people take over come January...

</div></div>

Who are your people?

(-:
Jim

wolfdancer
08-25-2008, 07:55 PM
Well stated !!

av84fun
08-25-2008, 07:59 PM
Excellent and thoughtful post JJFSTAR.

But either etiquette or netiquette to be anything other than silly, ought to have a purpose.

Placing a knife on a table blade side toward the plate makes it less likely that the diner will cut him/herself.

Shouting in a personal conference is fundamentally arrogant and rude.

But MANY of the principles of netiquette were established by quite youthful people who had (and many still seem to have) an almost clinical need to transform a virtual world into a real world.

So, such things as avatars, emoticons and other devices permit the user to invent a persona... to smile...to grimace...and yes to shout.

But c'mon folks. I am not now grimacing )-: nor am I smiling (-: I'm just typing.

Authors of these posts ought to be quite capable of expressing their emotions within the context of what they write and the type face, point size or the use of caps, bold or italics ought not to be the basis upon which comments are interpreted.

Remember, you are supposed to dip the FRONT side of your spoon into the soup first. We all do that don't we?

Or how about allowing ladies to exit an elevator first. If they are above 50 years old I do. If they are below 50, I tend to get dirty looks from the more liberated sorts.

One thing seems nearly certain. Anyone making a major issue out of such silliness as caps and type size has some growing up to do IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. I find the font size to be just fine for me I would not care if it were larger.
2A: No for me all caps are neither easier nor harder to read.
2B: No I do not consider all caps to be in and of itself fundamentally rude.

My thoughts:
I believe in proper etiquette and so do the moderators of this forum. Etiquette is different everywhere it varies from not just continent to continent but varies greatly between ethnic groups and socioeconomic groups and even sometimes from the same ethnic and socioeconomic group across town. It varies so vastly and can change instantly if one person enters or exits the room i.e.… a female or a child.

The same act can vary widely i.e.…A big belch at a formal dinner party is considered rude in the U.S.A. in most parts; however in most of Thailand if you never belched at dinner the chef might get insulted or their feelings hurt because it means you didn’t really enjoy the food.

Those who do not know or fly in the face of if they know what proper etiquette is I do not listen to nearly as much as those who do. Those who always use proper etiquette are much more highly regarded in this forum and the world. Those who understand this always try to use proper etiquette.

Netiquette is a word that describes etiquette on the internet. I would rather say netiquette than etiquette on the internet but that is a personal preference. I do not say that people who would choose to say the latter are stuck up or stupid because it would be improper etiquette and would thus make my opinion held in less regard than it is to whatever degree.

Lastly IMHO there are things that are said here that I believe to be improper etiquette as well as in most of the modern world. Remember this is all just my opinion not to be confused with facts. My list is longer but here are my top 3 faux pas.

1. Name calling; this is a no brainer and is totally unacceptable most everywhere.
2. Slighting of some ones held ideas that are esoteric in their nature. If they hold it true you should try to understand it not scoff at it. This is so you don’t go around unintentionally hurting peoples feelings.
3. Stating your opinion as if it were a fact. This is done all the time by lots of people on this forum I just give an inward chuckle because it is well known that everyone has their own take on things. So unless you are talking about facts such as CB velocity making and OB go faster your opinion isn’t any more correct than mine.

Ok I am done now my posts are too long anyway, if that is improper etiquette or netiquette if you prefer; excuse me it was unintentional.
</div></div>

wolfdancer
08-25-2008, 08:01 PM
It's somewhat of a secret organization and our main purpose is redistribution of the wealth, and maybe get the **** out of Iraq.
We call ourselves Democrats....very unpopular down below the Mason-Dixon line...we do have a small, undercover group in Nashville though

wolfdancer
08-25-2008, 08:10 PM
I understand where you are coming from ("Hey home, I can dig it. You know he ain't gonna lay no mo' big rap up on you man"). ...but still think it a bit whimsical...
Social networking...the CCB?
"Surely you can't be serious"

sack316
08-25-2008, 09:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But MANY of the principles of netiquette were established by quite youthful people who had (and many still seem to have) an almost clinical need to transform a virtual world into a real world.
</div></div>

Actually, the basis of it was done (in the beginning) by researchers and professors prior to the world wide web. See usenet, FTP, Telnet, etc. in the "old days". the word was actually used as early as the late 80's. So it's not as if it was a bunch of teeny boppers sitting around a chat room making this stuff up. Granted, most of the emoticons and things like that came along later on and are surely the product of young minds. But the basis of manners in relation to text based communication were the ideas of professionals.

Sack

sack316
08-25-2008, 09:38 PM
And wolfie, I am. And don't calle me Shirley.

Sack

av84fun
08-25-2008, 11:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But MANY of the principles of netiquette were established by quite youthful people who had (and many still seem to have) an almost clinical need to transform a virtual world into a real world.
</div></div>

Actually, the basis of it was done (in the beginning) by researchers and professors prior to the world wide web. See usenet, FTP, Telnet, etc. in the "old days". the word was actually used as early as the late 80's. So it's not as if it was a bunch of teeny boppers sitting around a chat room making this stuff up. Granted, most of the emoticons and things like that came along later on and are surely the product of young minds. But the basis of manners in relation to text based communication were the ideas of professionals.

Sack </div></div>

Your chronology regarding the evolution of the internet is quite inaccurate and off by a decade.

The internet and its progeny was developed in the U.S. after the launch of Sputkik in the late 1960s by the Department of Defense and was called ARPNET.

The first University to go "on line" was Carneige Mellon in 1973 and a group of its YOUNG STUDENTS published the following on line etiquette "rules."

As you will see, they suggested that the use of CAPS SUGGESTED SHOUTING which is a notion that was just as silly then as it is now.

Notwithstanding your above inaccuracies, the encouragement of polite discussions which is the foundation of etiquette, would be much better served by discouraging the use of personal insults such as referring to someone's views as "fairy tales" and using such vulgarities as a reference to "crapping on your little thread."

Would you agree with that? Or do you think that it is fine to disparage other's posts in any way whatsoever...so long as capital letters are not used???

(-:

Regards,
Jim

http://www.msba.org/departments/loma/articles/officemngmt/netiquette.htm

At Carnegie Mellon, the first university to get connected in 1973 to the internet using the TCP/IP protocol, students wanted to be able to communicate emotions and subtle humor on paper and so the emoticon was invented. Emoticons are "smileys" at the end of sentences to indicate that the statement was funny and not to be offensive. The most recognized emoticon (which means smiling) is :-) .

RULES – Ignore at your own risk

These are listed in no particular order.

If you subscribe to a listserves such as MSBATax@lists.msba.org or any of the other MSBA listserves, and you are planning to be away from your office, you must unsubscribe from the listserve while you are away, if you are going to use the auto response feature with your e-mail. If you do not unsubscribe, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, use the auto response feature.
If you do not wish to unsubscribe and are not going to use the auto response, you can set up your e-mail to put all your listserve messages into a separate folder so that you are not inundated with messages when you return.
Do not forward jokes or any other message because you have no idea where it will eventually be received. The Internet allows for very easy forwarding and sending of information. If you would not send out the jokes or message on your firm’s letterhead, then do not forward it.
Do not send anything via e-mail you do not want to see in public. (See Microsoft trial).
When you participate in a listserve, it is not always necessary to send a reply to the entire list although the REPLY TO: default is usually the address of the list. Please be careful when hitting the reply button, especially if you do NOT want your reply to read by the entire list. I have read many replies on listserves that were obviously not meant to be read by the entire list.
If you are responding to posting on a listserve, trim some of the original message.
Do not send a reply that just says "Me, too" or some other short response. Too many listserves are clogged by hundreds of "Me, too"s.
If you are replying to an e-mail or other posting, it is helpful to put the word REPLY in the Subject box.
Do not send messages without something in the Subject box.
Do not use capitals. IT MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING.
Do not flame people on listserves. Flaming means insulting people.
Watch the subject carefully. If a subject starts to go off the topic, those replying should indicate that in the subject header. This will allow you to delete messages off topic. It may look like: Subject: Expert Witness – Off Topic. This indicates the subject matter is no longer Expert Witnesses.
Keep messages short and to the point. If you are going to post a long reply or in some cases, a long rant, please indicate that in the subject header. Subject: Expert Witnesses - Long Reply.
Your signature should be at the bottom of all your e-mails and your signature should be short. The rule was 4 lines but that may be a little arbitrary. It should not be more that 6 or 8 lines.
If you would like additional information about netiquette, Arlene Rinaldi, has been the keeper of the rules for sometime. You can see a list of rules at http://www.fau.edu/netiquette. There are also Internet Use Guidelines http://www.unl.edu/websat/use.html.

sack316
08-26-2008, 08:04 AM
Very good young one. Your google skills are impressive. Which, who are we kidding, we could find a bazillion different "origins" for this thing, and an equal amount of different stories and claims as to who came up with what.

But then again, right or wrong that would not be the point. We ourselves have vilated one of the most fundamental rules "no cross posting", "stay on topic". To the reader who has clicked on this thread for the first time, they will see 3 or 4 posts out of 21 replies that pertain to your poll. The rest of this has moved to another discussion entirely. Surely they will either hit the back button, or were they to read through it in its entirety--- they would likely forget what the thread is about in the first place by the time they get down here. Thus this thread has, in all likelihood, lost it's ability to produce the results you were seeking in the first place.

As silly as it may sound, in many instances "netiquette" serves a purpose... and we have done well in proving it new friend /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif (smiley makes sure you know I'm not being smug he he)

Sack

av84fun
08-26-2008, 01:15 PM
No worries Sack! And BTW, thanks for the "young one" comment. I'm 64.

(-:

Jim

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very good young one. Your google skills are impressive. Which, who are we kidding, we could find a bazillion different "origins" for this thing, and an equal amount of different stories and claims as to who came up with what.

But then again, right or wrong that would not be the point. We ourselves have vilated one of the most fundamental rules "no cross posting", "stay on topic". To the reader who has clicked on this thread for the first time, they will see 3 or 4 posts out of 21 replies that pertain to your poll. The rest of this has moved to another discussion entirely. Surely they will either hit the back button, or were they to read through it in its entirety--- they would likely forget what the thread is about in the first place by the time they get down here. Thus this thread has, in all likelihood, lost it's ability to produce the results you were seeking in the first place.

As silly as it may sound, in many instances "netiquette" serves a purpose... and we have done well in proving it new friend /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif (smiley makes sure you know I'm not being smug he he)

Sack </div></div>

JJFSTAR
08-26-2008, 03:40 PM
Good posts in this whole thread sack I think you and I think a lot alike. Jim there is no way to briefly make my point clear so here I go being verbose again. If you read over carefully saks and my posts you will get my point.

IMHO if you say to a person or group of people that their social conventions are silly you will get a variety of reactions ranging from "Hey your right I don’t know why we do that" to “_ _ _ _ _ _ _!” and here’s why; there are very few truly universally accepted behavior patters that have been accepted throughout the ages. We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type.

Evolution of the internet has spawned the creation of the word netiquette. Before this thread I had never seen nor heard that word. I don’t use it except to refer to it I think etiquette is just fine seeing as we are just here in the forum I don’t feel the need to have a more specific qualifier.

To say that a group of peoples accepted etiquette is without purpose would be incorrect because to that person or group it has purpose. If that statement were true then netiquette would not exist. Now saying that you personally do not see the purpose in the creation of the word netiquette and think that it just sounds silly or see all caps as not shouting is just fine but to say that it isn’t is incorrect because again it is to some people.

Believe it or not I agree with you on many levels I think netiquette is not particularly useful seeing as we are on a forum. It is the base level where you and I differ in our opinions. Clichés such as “when in Rome…”, “to each his own”, “one mans trash is another…..” and “we all have our own take on things” are meant to teach us how to deal with misunderstandings of this type.

Etiquette as you can see can be the cause of debate as well as prevent misunderstandings. I may be being a bit presumptuous but I will try to give the best example I can. I will take you and the girl coming out of the elevator. There are a few things that are definitely true.

1. You both have a different understanding of the social convention.
2. You both have a different view of the significance of that particular form of etiquette.
3. You both have some opinion about the other.
4. You are either more informed than she is or have been misinformed.

There are also one or more things that you both (probably) think are true but are not.

1. That both of you believe that the other is less intelligent and/or not as courteous as you are.
2. That the other is in the wrong.
3. That the other has been uninformed or misinformed about proper social guidelines.


However neither of you is the governing body of what is nor is not proper in fact there isn’t one. The only thing either of you are are two people who have to be on this planet at the same time and get along to a certain extent for a finite length of time.

To sum it all up once you start the argument as to whether or not netiquette is silly and purposeless you have to be willing to go and argue it to the end. And if you do you have to be willing to stand by the argument that social conventions are silly and serve no purpose and that argument cannot be won because social conventions aren’t even limited to the human race. WHEW

Hey JoeW you can jump in anytime here so I don’t have to do so much typing!

av84fun
08-26-2008, 04:39 PM
Very thoughtful post...as usual.

In response...just because certain social conventions are...well...conventional (-: doesn't mean that they are not silly in the mind of the reasonable observer.

Remember, that to be conventional does not even require adoption by the majority...only that it is "widely adopted or accepted."

If caps=shouting is "conventional" than so too is free speech and the right to express an opinion. Suggesting that a given behavior is silly, is by its very nature, an opinion and it is a cumbersome waste of time to have to include qualifiers such as IMHO.

So, I hold to my opinion that the use of caps is not, in fact, shouting...since type faces have no vocal cords. Further, I suggest that when people actually shout, their purpose in doing so is made perfectly clear within the context of why they are shouting.

But when someone...in this case me...uses caps so as to intersperse comments within a long body of text, it was OBVIOUS why I did so but to be sure there was no misunderstanding, I even STATED that I was NOT SHOUTING! (-:

Nevertheless, motivated by whatever motivates 1time, he felt the need to instruct me that caps are considered shouting...in spite of the fact that I had already demonstrated knowledge of that convention.

So, please know that I fully understand your position and respect it. However, that does nothing to change my opinion that the "tone and purpose" of the written word is readily discernable from within the text and make believe conventions that presume to convey a tone that should be self-evident in the text is...well....silly! (-:

However, having just used a smiley emoticon, I readily accept that facial gestures can and often do radically alter the intent and purpose of raw text.

Therefore, since such intent cannot always be deduced from the text, and since forum posters cannot see each other, emoticons are both conventional and purposeful.

As numerous posts in this thread demonstrate, there is widely viewed that the use of all caps is not fundamentally rude and that a large percentage of the contributors to this thread simply don't care one way or the other.

In my view, the above would be found true if a much larger sample of forum posters were polled.

Finally, there is little doubt that regardless of type faces, comments that are fundamentally rude and bitter have found there way into certain posts in this and other threads.

So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...

1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?

Regards,
Jim



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good posts in this whole thread sack I think you and I think a lot alike. Jim there is no way to briefly make my point clear so here I go being verbose again. If you read over carefully saks and my posts you will get my point.

IMHO if you say to a person or group of people that their social conventions are silly you will get a variety of reaction ranging from "Hey your right I don’t know why we do that" to “_ _ _ _ _ _ _!” and here’s why; there are very few truly universally accepted behavior patters that have been accepted throughout the ages. We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type.

Evolution of the internet has spawned the creation of the word netiquette. Before this thread I had never seen nor heard that word. I don’t use it except to refer to it I think etiquette is just fine seeing as we are just here in the forum I don’t feel the need to have a more specific qualifier.

To say that a group of peoples accepted etiquette is without purpose would be incorrect because to that person or group it has purpose. If that statement were true then netiquette would not exist. Now saying that you personally do not see the purpose in the creation of the word netiquette and think that it just sounds silly or see all caps as not shouting is just fine but to say that it isn’t is incorrect because again it is to some people.

Believe it or not I agree with you on many levels I think netiquette is not particularly useful seeing as we are on a forum. It is the base level where you and I differ in our opinions. Clichés such as “when in Rome…”, “to each his own”, “one mans trash is another…..” and “we all have our own take on things” are meant to teach us how to deal with misunderstandings of this type.

Etiquette as you can see can be the cause of debate as well as prevent misunderstandings. I may be being a bit presumptuous but I will try to give the best example I can. I will take you and the girl coming out of the elevator. There are a few things that are definitely true.

1. You both have a different understanding of the social convention.
2. You both have a different view of the significance of that particular form of etiquette.
3. You both have some opinion about the other.
4. You are either more informed than she is or have been misinformed.

There are also one or more things that you both (probably) think are true but are not.

1. That both of you believe that the other is less intelligent and/or not as courteous as you are.
2. That the other is in the wrong.
3. That the other has been uninformed or misinformed about proper social guidelines.


However neither of you is the governing body of what is nor is not proper in fact there isn’t one. The only thing either of you are are two people who have to be on this planet at the same time and get along to a certain extent for a finite length of time.

To sum it all up once you start the argument as to whether or not netiquette is silly and purposeless you have to be willing to go and argue it to the end. And if you do you have to be willing to stand by the argument that social conventions are silly and serve no purpose and that argument cannot be won because social conventions aren’t even limited to the human race. WHEW

Hey JoeW you can jump in anytime here so I don’t have to do so much typing!
</div></div>

sack316
08-26-2008, 10:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No worries Sack! And BTW, thanks for the "young one" comment. I'm 64.

(-:

Jim

</div></div>

No problem. You seem much younger at heart anyway, and that's what counts /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif I, on the other hand, tend to get called a bitter old man until they find out I'm 28. Nah, they don't really call me bitter... but only because I hide it relatively well.

Sack

sack316
08-26-2008, 10:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good posts in this whole thread sack I think you and I think a lot alike.
</div></div>

I'll take that as a compliment... which I hope it is lol

Well I wasn't actually laughing out loud, but the lol symbolized my amusement in my own comment, as well as encourages you to take amusement in it as well. Though to be technical, I would be LOI... laughing on the inside. And yes, I see why many see such things as silly--- because it actually is kinda silly. I don't feel that makes it unnecessary, though.

Found kinda a cool little thing about typing in all caps, that has to do with more than just the expression of "yelling":

http://creativecurio.com/2007/08/why-you-shouldn%E2%80%99t-type-in-all-caps/

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...

1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?

Regards,
Jim
</div></div>

Jim, I included this in this response just to prevent myself from doing three seperate replies in a row. But to answer your question, I'd say it has to do with what context it is in. If someone were to tell me "I LOVE YOU!!!" I'd find that quite acceptable... and may even blush depending on who it is from. BUT IF SOMEONE TYPED IN A COMPLETE RESPONSE TO A POST IN ALL CAPS AND IT DRAGGED ON AND ON AND ON FOR SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS IN A FORM SUCH AS THIS I would wind it moderately annoying (personally, that is). They would also appear (again to me) somewhat ignorant. I mean, really who writes that way? Does anyone sit down with a piece of paper and write complete letters to a friend in all capital letters, besides a child learning to read and write perhaps? Did anyone sit down at their IMB Selectric and turn in a paper for a class or work in all upper case? Neither of those are common occurences, as far as I know. Granted, in a forum such as this nice little home he have here, it might not bother anyone. But it's 100% certain typing properly won't bother anyone either. Then again it's possible before my time someone thought it silly to use italics, bold, or underline for certain things. I dunno.

But I do agree with you 100% that rude remarks, in any way shape or form, have no place... and are probably worse than typing in all caps. Unless it's followed by a smiley face or a "j/k". You jerk. j/k /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sack

av84fun
08-27-2008, 12:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good posts in this whole thread sack I think you and I think a lot alike.
</div></div>

I'll take that as a compliment... which I hope it is lol

Well I wasn't actually laughing out loud, but the lol symbolized my amusement in my own comment, as well as encourages you to take amusement in it as well. Though to be technical, I would be LOI... laughing on the inside. And yes, I see why many see such things as silly--- because it actually is kinda silly. I don't feel that makes it unnecessary, though.

Found kinda a cool little thing about typing in all caps, that has to do with more than just the expression of "yelling":

http://creativecurio.com/2007/08/why-you-shouldn%E2%80%99t-type-in-all-caps/

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...

1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?

Regards,
Jim
</div></div>

Jim, I included this in this response just to prevent myself from doing three seperate replies in a row. But to answer your question, I'd say it has to do with what context it is in. If someone were to tell me "I LOVE YOU!!!" I'd find that quite acceptable... and may even blush depending on who it is from. BUT IF SOMEONE TYPED IN A COMPLETE RESPONSE TO A POST IN ALL CAPS AND IT DRAGGED ON AND ON AND ON FOR SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS IN A FORM SUCH AS THIS I would wind it moderately annoying (personally, that is). They would also appear (again to me) somewhat ignorant. I mean, really who writes that way? Does anyone sit down with a piece of paper and write complete letters to a friend in all capital letters, besides a child learning to read and write perhaps? Did anyone sit down at their IMB Selectric and turn in a paper for a class or work in all upper case? Neither of those are common occurences, as far as I know. Granted, in a forum such as this nice little home he have here, it might not bother anyone. But it's 100% certain typing properly won't bother anyone either. Then again it's possible before my time someone thought it silly to use italics, bold, or underline for certain things. I dunno.

But I do agree with you 100% that rude remarks, in any way shape or form, have no place... and are probably worse than typing in all caps. Unless it's followed by a smiley face or a "j/k". You jerk. j/k /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Sack

</div></div>

A reasonable man indeed.

Separately, I have a comment on your slogan..."my only fear is that I may one day be afraid of something."

I suggest that you take classes to learn how to be afraid of things that it are reational to fear.

According to your slogan, you must live in daily fear...of one day being afraid of something.

Conversely, if you WERE afraid of certain things that are reasonable to fear, then fear would only manifest itself when those things occur in your life. Therefore, you would only experience fear occasionally, instead of every day.

Tell Dr. Jim all of your troubles...I have solutions!!!
(-:

Jim

JJFSTAR
08-27-2008, 10:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...

1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?

Regards,
Jim</div></div>

And let me close by saying that if you have read my posts carefully this question need not be asked therefore I can only presume that you are skimming my posts or it is sarcastic and either I believe improper just let me know if I am being presumptuous or not.

I can also construe that there is a strong possibility that you believe that I am also silly and stupid for my beliefs and I suspect this because of your past posts. But that’s ok I give everyone free license to hold their beliefs and I respect them. In other words if you think I am silly and or stupid then I don’t think you are stupid for thinking I am silly or stupid.

av84fun
08-27-2008, 11:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...

1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?

Regards,
Jim</div></div>

And let me close by saying that if you have read my posts carefully this question need not be asked therefore I can only presume that you are skimming my posts or it is sarcastic and either I believe improper just let me know if I am being presumptuous or not.

I can also construe that there is a strong possibility that you believe that I am also silly and stupid for my beliefs and I suspect this because of your past posts. But that’s ok I give everyone free license to hold their beliefs and I respect them. In other words if you think I am silly and or stupid then I don’t think you are stupid for thinking I am silly or stupid.
</div></div>

First, I am taken aback by your comments. I have been consistently respectful of your posts. I don't believe that the conclusions and suppositions you drew are at all justified by the actual content of my posts to you.

To be clear, nothing I have written to or about you has been sarcastic or anything other than respectful.

In addition, I do not skim your posts. And to demonstrate that I will now deal with two of your positions that I was going to let pass.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type.
</div></div>

Humans have ALWAYS been able to speak. To "speak" is defined as
"1, To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk."

Therefore, since humans have always been able to modulate their vocal cords in a fashion accommodative of forming a massive number of phonemes (unlike the lower animals) they have always been able to and always have "spoken."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> To sum it all up once you start the argument as to whether or not netiquette is silly and purposeless you have to be willing to go and argue it to the end. And if you do you have to be willing to stand by the argument that social conventions are silly and serve no purpose and that argument cannot be won because social conventions aren’t even limited to the human race.
</div></div>

Your thesis is flawed.

I did not suggest that netiquette, in its entirety, is silly. I suggested that one single component of netiquette having to do with the use of all caps is silly.

Jim

eg8r
08-27-2008, 02:00 PM
I prefer slightly larger size than the default. I also generally look at all caps as either yelling or stressing a point.

eg8r

Deeman3
08-27-2008, 02:34 PM
I just figured the people typing in all caps were, like, physically disadvantaged, no little fingers or something like that.

wolfdancer
08-27-2008, 02:59 PM
do you prefer the font,tan (or) blue? (yet another weak pun)
I can't read Gayle's blue fonts on my screen unless I run the mouse across them.
I'm wondering why anyone would post in all caps?
Their post is soooo important (like lww's) or they have attention deficit disorder...no one is paying any attention to them....

Deeman3
08-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Some of us celebrate the blue font posts by Gayle. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

JJFSTAR
08-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Ok I do not really think that it is of a lot of worth that I have to do the ultra long post again but work is slow and I really don’t have anything better to do at the moment. All I asked is that you inform me if I am being presumptuous or not when I suggested that your question might be sarcastic by saying this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And let me close by saying that if you have read my posts carefully this question need not be asked therefore I can only presume that you are skimming my posts or it is sarcastic and either I believe improper <u>just let me know if I am being presumptuous or not.</u></div></div>

I still do not understand why someone would ask this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...
1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?
</div></div>
After someone has said this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My thoughts:
I believe in proper etiquette and so do the moderators of this forum. Etiquette is different everywhere it varies from not just continent to continent but varies greatly between ethnic groups and socioeconomic groups and even sometimes from the same ethnic and socioeconomic group across town. It varies so vastly and can change instantly if one person enters or exits the room i.e.… a female or a child.

The same act can vary widely i.e.…A big belch at a formal dinner party is considered rude in the U.S.A. in most parts; however in most of Thailand if you never belched at dinner the chef might get insulted or their feelings hurt because it means you didn’t really enjoy the food.

Those who do not know or fly in the face of if they know what proper etiquette is I do not listen to nearly as much as those who do. Those who always use proper etiquette are much more highly regarded in this forum and the world. Those who understand this always try to use proper etiquette.

Netiquette is a word that describes etiquette on the internet. I would rather say netiquette than etiquette on the internet but that is a personal preference. I do not say that people who would choose to say the latter are stuck up or stupid because it would be improper etiquette and would thus make my opinion held in less regard than it is to whatever degree.

Lastly IMHO there are things that are said here that I believe to be improper etiquette as well as in most of the modern world. Remember this is all just my opinion not to be confused with facts. My list is longer but here are my top 3 faux pas.

1. Name calling; this is a no brainer and is totally unacceptable most everywhere.
2. Slighting of some ones held ideas that are esoteric in their nature. If they hold it true you should try to understand it not scoff at it. This is so you don’t go around unintentionally hurting peoples feelings.
3. Stating your opinion as if it were a fact. This is done all the time by lots of people on this forum I just give an inward chuckle because it is well known that everyone has their own take on things. So unless you are talking about facts such as CB velocity making and OB go faster your opinion isn’t any more correct than mine.

Ok I am done now my posts are too long anyway, if that is improper etiquette or netiquette if you prefer; excuse me it was unintentional.
</div></div>
And this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IMHO if you say to a person or group of people that their social conventions are silly you will get a variety of reactions ranging from "Hey your right I don’t know why we do that" to “_ _ _ _ _ _ _!” and here’s why; there are very few truly universally accepted behavior patters that have been accepted throughout the ages. We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type.

Evolution of the internet has spawned the creation of the word netiquette. Before this thread I had never seen nor heard that word. I don’t use it except to refer to it I think etiquette is just fine seeing as we are just here in the forum I don’t feel the need to have a more specific qualifier.

To say that a group of peoples accepted etiquette is without purpose would be incorrect because to that person or group it has purpose. If that statement were true then netiquette would not exist. Now saying that you personally do not see the purpose in the creation of the word netiquette and think that it just sounds silly or see all caps as not shouting is just fine but to say that it isn’t is incorrect because again it is to some people.

Believe it or not I agree with you on many levels I think netiquette is not particularly useful seeing as we are on a forum. It is the base level where you and I differ in our opinions. Clichés such as “when in Rome…”, “to each his own”, “one mans trash is another…..” and “we all have our own take on things” are meant to teach us how to deal with misunderstandings of this type.

Etiquette as you can see can be the cause of debate as well as prevent misunderstandings. I may be being a bit presumptuous but I will try to give the best example I can. I will take you and the girl coming out of the elevator. There are a few things that are definitely true.

1. You both have a different understanding of the social convention.
2. You both have a different view of the significance of that particular form of etiquette.
3. You both have some opinion about the other.
4. You are either more informed than she is or have been misinformed.

There are also one or more things that you both (probably) think are true but are not.

1. That both of you believe that the other is less intelligent and/or not as courteous as you are.
2. That the other is in the wrong.
3. That the other has been uninformed or misinformed about proper social guidelines.


However neither of you is the governing body of what is nor is not proper in fact there isn’t one. The only thing either of you are are two people who have to be on this planet at the same time and get along to a certain extent for a finite length of time.

To sum it all up once you start the argument as to whether or not netiquette is silly and purposeless you have to be willing to go and argue it to the end. And if you do you have to be willing to stand by the argument that social conventions are silly and serve no purpose and that argument cannot be won because social conventions aren’t even limited to the human race. WHEW

Hey JoeW you can jump in anytime here so I don’t have to do so much typing!
</div></div>
It seems dubious to me that someone who has said all that could still be asked if he would prefer rudeness to all caps. My question is if it was neither of those purposes then why would you ask that question. Here is how I see it in illustrated terms (not to be taken literally or precisely). Why would someone finishing a discussion about trigonometry with another ask the other person if they knew what 2 + 2 equals if not with the intention of sarcasm? All you had to say was “Nope I wasn’t being sarcastic you were being presumptuous” and I would have said “So why would you ask me that” IMHO there is no reason to be “Taken aback”
As far as saying you saying
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I did not suggest that netiquette, in its entirety, is silly. I suggested that one single component of netiquette having to do with the use of all caps is silly. </div></div>
That statement to me seems to be in contradiction with someone who said.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sorry but "netiquette" is one of the silliest concepts of all time. </div></div>
and
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, such things as avatars, emoticons and other devices permit the user to invent a persona... to smile...to grimace...and yes to shout.

But c'mon folks. I am not now grimacing )-: nor am I smiling (-: I'm just typing. </div></div>
The latter seems to me to be all inclusive of netiquette. So if I am confused about your opinion this is why.
Lastly about my statement about humans being able to speak I have made a linguistic error. I thought it so far off topic that I couldn’t imagine having to explain it but I will. I should have used “used speech as defined by definition #2 in the free online dictionary as their primary form of communication” here
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type. </div></div>

Instead I used “could even speak” and that was incorrect IMHO that’s splitting hairs. But when your right your right I retract “could even speak” what I should have said was “used speech as defined by definition #2 in the free online dictionary as their primary form of communication”
The history of human communication is a fascinating subject. Although there isn’t conclusive proof that people did not use sounds as their first primary means of communication the scientific evidence suggests that language at first was gestural and not verbal. Also before what most of the scientific community thinks, There is the excerpt as well as a link of the paragraph that I think is pertinent to this discussion.I also want to point out that there are 13 definitions of the word speak and #2 is just as valid as #1 and here it is;
2. to communicate vocally; mention: to speak to a person of various matters.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/~alock/hbook/hewes.htm

The modern argument for gestural primacy in language origins draws on several lines of evidence, including the following. Sound is of questionable suitability as the original basis for language, given the greater creative capacity and open-endedness of higher primate manual and digital operations. Regular tool-using in hominids probably evolved before vocal language, and the human brain's left-lateralization for speech could have been tacked on to a previous specialization for predominantly right-handed gestural language and precise sequences of manual manipulations. In relatively simple contexts gestural communication has the distinct advantage of greater transparency and ease of communication.

If that doesn’t clear up everything I can’t imagine that anything that I could say could clear up anything. This post is so long that you may not remember my question. And that is; after all that we discussed why did you ask which I would prefer? Do you think that after our lengthily discussion that there would be a possibility that I would answer that I would prefer a rude post to a polite post with all caps? After our discussion what possible reason could there be for asking that question?

av84fun
08-27-2008, 11:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok I do not really think that it is of a lot of worth that I have to do the ultra long post again but work is slow and I really don’t have anything better to do at the moment. All I asked is that you inform me if I am being presumptuous or not when I suggested that your question might be sarcastic by saying this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And let me close by saying that if you have read my posts carefully this question need not be asked therefore I can only presume that you are skimming my posts or it is sarcastic and either I believe improper <u>just let me know if I am being presumptuous or not.</u></div></div>

I still do not understand why someone would ask this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So let me close by asking you a simple question. Which do you find less acceptable...
1. Polite comments that appear in all caps or;
2. Rude remarks that appear in normal upper and lower case type?
</div></div>
After someone has said this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My thoughts:
I believe in proper etiquette and so do the moderators of this forum. Etiquette is different everywhere it varies from not just continent to continent but varies greatly between ethnic groups and socioeconomic groups and even sometimes from the same ethnic and socioeconomic group across town. It varies so vastly and can change instantly if one person enters or exits the room i.e.… a female or a child.

The same act can vary widely i.e.…A big belch at a formal dinner party is considered rude in the U.S.A. in most parts; however in most of Thailand if you never belched at dinner the chef might get insulted or their feelings hurt because it means you didn’t really enjoy the food.

Those who do not know or fly in the face of if they know what proper etiquette is I do not listen to nearly as much as those who do. Those who always use proper etiquette are much more highly regarded in this forum and the world. Those who understand this always try to use proper etiquette.

Netiquette is a word that describes etiquette on the internet. I would rather say netiquette than etiquette on the internet but that is a personal preference. I do not say that people who would choose to say the latter are stuck up or stupid because it would be improper etiquette and would thus make my opinion held in less regard than it is to whatever degree.

Lastly IMHO there are things that are said here that I believe to be improper etiquette as well as in most of the modern world. Remember this is all just my opinion not to be confused with facts. My list is longer but here are my top 3 faux pas.

1. Name calling; this is a no brainer and is totally unacceptable most everywhere.
2. Slighting of some ones held ideas that are esoteric in their nature. If they hold it true you should try to understand it not scoff at it. This is so you don’t go around unintentionally hurting peoples feelings.
3. Stating your opinion as if it were a fact. This is done all the time by lots of people on this forum I just give an inward chuckle because it is well known that everyone has their own take on things. So unless you are talking about facts such as CB velocity making and OB go faster your opinion isn’t any more correct than mine.

Ok I am done now my posts are too long anyway, if that is improper etiquette or netiquette if you prefer; excuse me it was unintentional.
</div></div>
And this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IMHO if you say to a person or group of people that their social conventions are silly you will get a variety of reactions ranging from "Hey your right I don’t know why we do that" to “_ _ _ _ _ _ _!” and here’s why; there are very few truly universally accepted behavior patters that have been accepted throughout the ages. We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type.

Evolution of the internet has spawned the creation of the word netiquette. Before this thread I had never seen nor heard that word. I don’t use it except to refer to it I think etiquette is just fine seeing as we are just here in the forum I don’t feel the need to have a more specific qualifier.

To say that a group of peoples accepted etiquette is without purpose would be incorrect because to that person or group it has purpose. If that statement were true then netiquette would not exist. Now saying that you personally do not see the purpose in the creation of the word netiquette and think that it just sounds silly or see all caps as not shouting is just fine but to say that it isn’t is incorrect because again it is to some people.

Believe it or not I agree with you on many levels I think netiquette is not particularly useful seeing as we are on a forum. It is the base level where you and I differ in our opinions. Clichés such as “when in Rome…”, “to each his own”, “one mans trash is another…..” and “we all have our own take on things” are meant to teach us how to deal with misunderstandings of this type.

Etiquette as you can see can be the cause of debate as well as prevent misunderstandings. I may be being a bit presumptuous but I will try to give the best example I can. I will take you and the girl coming out of the elevator. There are a few things that are definitely true.

1. You both have a different understanding of the social convention.
2. You both have a different view of the significance of that particular form of etiquette.
3. You both have some opinion about the other.
4. You are either more informed than she is or have been misinformed.

There are also one or more things that you both (probably) think are true but are not.

1. That both of you believe that the other is less intelligent and/or not as courteous as you are.
2. That the other is in the wrong.
3. That the other has been uninformed or misinformed about proper social guidelines.


However neither of you is the governing body of what is nor is not proper in fact there isn’t one. The only thing either of you are are two people who have to be on this planet at the same time and get along to a certain extent for a finite length of time.

To sum it all up once you start the argument as to whether or not netiquette is silly and purposeless you have to be willing to go and argue it to the end. And if you do you have to be willing to stand by the argument that social conventions are silly and serve no purpose and that argument cannot be won because social conventions aren’t even limited to the human race. WHEW

Hey JoeW you can jump in anytime here so I don’t have to do so much typing!
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It seems dubious to me that someone who has said all that could still be asked if he would prefer rudeness to all caps. My question is if it was neither of those purposes then why would you ask that question. Here is how I see it in illustrated terms (not to be taken literally or precisely). Why would someone finishing a discussion about trigonometry with another ask the other person if they knew what 2 + 2 equals if not with the intention of sarcasm? All you had to say was “Nope I wasn’t being sarcastic you were being presumptuous” and I would have said “So why would you ask me that” IMHO there is no reason to be “Taken aback”
As far as saying you saying
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I did not suggest that netiquette, in its entirety, is silly. I suggested that one single component of netiquette having to do with the use of all caps is silly. </div></div>
That statement to me seems to be in contradiction with someone who said.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sorry but "netiquette" is one of the silliest concepts of all time. </div></div>
and
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, such things as avatars, emoticons and other devices permit the user to invent a persona... to smile...to grimace...and yes to shout.

But c'mon folks. I am not now grimacing )-: nor am I smiling (-: I'm just typing. </div></div>
The latter seems to me to be all inclusive of netiquette. So if I am confused about your opinion this is why.
Lastly about my statement about humans being able to speak I have made a linguistic error. I thought it so far off topic that I couldn’t imagine having to explain it but I will. I should have used “used speech as defined by definition #2 in the free online dictionary as their primary form of communication” here
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have been arguing this very point long before humans could even speak let alone write or type. </div></div>

Instead I used “could even speak” and that was incorrect IMHO that’s splitting hairs. But when your right your right I retract “could even speak” what I should have said was “used speech as defined by definition #2 in the free online dictionary as their primary form of communication”
The history of human communication is a fascinating subject. Although there isn’t conclusive proof that people did not use sounds as their first primary means of communication the scientific evidence suggests that language at first was gestural and not verbal. Also before what most of the scientific community thinks, There is the excerpt as well as a link of the paragraph that I think is pertinent to this discussion.I also want to point out that there are 13 definitions of the word speak and #2 is just as valid as #1 and here it is;
2. to communicate vocally; mention: to speak to a person of various matters.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/~alock/hbook/hewes.htm

The modern argument for gestural primacy in language origins draws on several lines of evidence, including the following. Sound is of questionable suitability as the original basis for language, given the greater creative capacity and open-endedness of higher primate manual and digital operations. Regular tool-using in hominids probably evolved before vocal language, and the human brain's left-lateralization for speech could have been tacked on to a previous specialization for predominantly right-handed gestural language and precise sequences of manual manipulations. In relatively simple contexts gestural communication has the distinct advantage of greater transparency and ease of communication.

If that doesn’t clear up everything I can’t imagine that anything that I could say could clear up anything. This post is so long that you may not remember my question. And that is; after all that we discussed why did you ask which I would prefer? Do you think that after our lengthily discussion that there would be a possibility that I would answer that I would prefer a rude post to a polite post with all caps? After our discussion what possible reason could there be for asking that question?
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whatever.

Jim