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Michael Shaw
08-26-2008, 06:51 AM
Hi
I was wondering what exactly is Low English

zombiemodder
08-26-2008, 07:13 AM
It's when you hit below center of the cue ball to either make a stop shot or to draw the cue ball back.

1Time
08-26-2008, 07:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Shaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi
I was wondering what exactly is Low English </div></div>Hit the cue ball below its center.

Cornerman
08-26-2008, 09:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Shaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi
I was wondering what exactly is Low English </div></div>It's the opposite of High German.

Actually, I'd think that "low english" is english hit below the equator. It's usually said with a specifier. E.g., low left-hand english or low right-hand english.

Fred

BigRigTom
08-26-2008, 10:40 AM
Below center alone is not english....it is draw.
You can combine the draw with english by hitting below center (draw) and left of center for left english or right of center for right english.

The right or left of center is actually the english part, not the below center....that is simply "draw", while above center is called follow.

Deeman3
08-26-2008, 10:50 AM
I would argue that as of late, low english has referred to draw alone. Partially because the commentators on ESPN have used it extensively when referring to draw alone for a few years now. I always agreed with you on this but as words are used over and over, their meaning becomes what the popular dialog lends to it.

After all english is really just spin and at what point do you deem it english/follow/draw? We would all do better to just replace english with spin and be done with it before hostilities break out, war ensues and we find ourselves bogged down in another senseless act of carnage against the English! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

BigRigTom
08-26-2008, 10:57 AM
Good point Deeman....after all the English refer to it as "side"!

Cornerman
08-26-2008, 12:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Below center alone is not english....it is draw.
You can combine the draw with english by hitting below center (draw) and left of center for left english or right of center for right english.

The right or left of center is actually the english part, not the below center....that is simply "draw", while above center is called follow. </div></div>I don't think so. But, the question was a bit odd, so arguing what it means is moot.

English to me means sidepspin. Not draw. Not follow. Low means low. High means high. Ergo, low english must mean low sidespin. To try to suggest that english means spin and spin only would put us back in the dark ages.

Fred &lt;~~~ thought the term "draw english" was bad enough

Deeman3
08-26-2008, 12:35 PM
[quote=Cornerman To try to suggest that english means spin and spin only would put us back in the dark ages.

Fred &lt;~~~ thought the term "draw english" was bad enough
[/quote]

<span style="color: #FF0000">But Fred, you need to tell that to the ESPN guys! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I have to admit, I never heard Fred get it wrong in a those matched he called! I used to get spun out on the terminology but gave up after our felt arguments here were I was branded an elitist (and I don't even use Grey Poupon!). /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Fred, we gonna have a tar Pit at Derby City this year? </span>

av84fun
08-26-2008, 01:09 PM
Fred, I hear ya loud and clear but common usage has evolved over time and we can't put the genie back in the bottle.

In Science of Pocket Billiards,(1995 edition) Jack Koehler defines "english" as..."Any spin or rotation of the cue ball that is not a manifestation of normal roll. English is applied to the cue ball by striking it off center."

Therefore, according to his definition, draw is a form of english as so too would be the momentary "over spin" that can be imparted to the cb on a follow shot.

Koehler goes on to say..."Some authorities define english as side spin only."

Therefore, like it or not, both definitions of "english" are in common usage and therefore, must be considered acceptable.

Regards,
Jim

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornerman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Below center alone is not english....it is draw.
You can combine the draw with english by hitting below center (draw) and left of center for left english or right of center for right english.

The right or left of center is actually the english part, not the below center....that is simply "draw", while above center is called follow. </div></div>I don't think so. But, the question was a bit odd, so arguing what it means is moot.

English to me means sidepspin. Not draw. Not follow. Low means low. High means high. Ergo, low english must mean low sidespin. To try to suggest that english means spin and spin only would put us back in the dark ages.

Fred &lt;~~~ thought the term "draw english" was bad enough
</div></div>

Cornerman
08-26-2008, 01:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But Fred, you need to tell that to the ESPN guys!</div></div>
and

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fred, I hear ya loud and clear but common usage has evolved over time and we can't put the genie back in the bottle.</div></div>Oh, bother! (As Pooh Bear might say). Alright, I guess I can't do anything about it.


The world is rent from my grasp
I cannot breath
I cannot see
What else lurks round the corner
When words get drowned into the sea?

Fred

Cornerman
08-26-2008, 01:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="color: #FF0000">
Fred, we gonna have a tar Pit at Derby City this year? </span> </div></div>Things look good on that end, but let's wait until JCIN and BigNasty make whatever announcements they need to make.

Fred

av84fun
08-26-2008, 04:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornerman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But Fred, you need to tell that to the ESPN guys!</div></div>
and

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fred, I hear ya loud and clear but common usage has evolved over time and we can't put the genie back in the bottle.</div></div>Oh, bother! (As Pooh Bear might say). Alright, I guess I can't do anything about it.


The world is rent from my grasp
I cannot breath
I cannot see
What else lurks round the corner
When words get drowned into the sea?Fred


</div></div>

How true but...

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew.

Abraham Lincoln

(-:

Scott Lee
08-26-2008, 08:56 PM
Jim...Regardless of what Koehler said in his book, good instructors know the importance of a student understanding the significant difference between striking the CB right or left of the vertical axis, and up and down the vertical axis. Different things happen, and we instructors feel it is a poor choice of words to equate 'english' with anything other than sidespin.

Scott Lee

av84fun
08-27-2008, 12:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim...Regardless of what Koehler said in his book, good instructors know the importance of a student understanding the significant difference between striking the CB right or left of the vertical axis, and up and down the vertical axis. Different things happen, and we instructors feel it is a poor choice of words to equate 'english' with anything other than sidespin.

Scott Lee

</div></div>

Hey Scott. Hope to see you again soon.

I wasn't advocating the use of the word "english" to denote follow or draw. I was just saying that it is now common usage. The genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back in.

I don't know who coined the word "english" to denote sidespin but ironically, the Brits have if right when they call it "side" because side is side and there can be no debate or confusion over what it is.

Personally, I avoid the use of the word "english" as much as possible. I prefer to talk in terms of high or low left/right...draw, follow (which presumes the vertical axis) and center ball.

So I would say.."Use low left." not.."Use draw with left english (or left side.)"


Regards,
Jim

Cornerman
08-27-2008, 06:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't know who coined the word "english" to denote sidespin but ironically, the Brits have if right when they call it "side" because side is side and there can be no debate or confusion over what it is. </div></div>I'll guess that thew word in America was coined by someone from Massachusetts who first saw someone from England using sidespin in the 1700's.

Just like certain people call certain games like "Chicago Pool," or "Boston Pool."

Fred

Billy_Bob
08-27-2008, 09:19 AM
Some pool players have never read any books on pool and don't know the correct terms. They may have been refering to a "draw" shot.

Here is a high speed video of hitting the cue ball low in the center (draw). Notice how this gives the cue ball a backwards roll...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm

Then this shows what happens after a cue ball with draw hits the object ball...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-1.htm

av84fun
08-27-2008, 11:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some pool players have never read any books on pool and don't know the correct terms. They may have been refering to a "draw" shot.

Here is a high speed video of hitting the cue ball low in the center (draw). Notice how this gives the cue ball a backwards roll...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm

Then this shows what happens after a cue ball with draw hits the object ball...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-1.htm
</div></div>

Billy_Bob, your comment in bold above demonstrates why there is confusion...differences of opinion really...about what "draw" means.


"Draw" can be imparted by striking the cue ball anywhere (within the no miscue zone) below the equator.

Draw...in its most precice sense...is merely one of several RESULTS of the use of spin. So really, it is not a TYPE of shot but rather a <u>consquence</u> of a type of shot.

As Scott Lee pointed out, the critical issue is the understanding of how spin...in all its forms...effects the behavior of pool balls.

Regards,
Jim

PRQL8R
08-27-2008, 05:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Below center alone is not english....it is draw.

Good point Deeman....after all the English refer to it as "side"! </div></div>


The English along with never referring to any spin applied to the ball as <u>english</u>, they also refer to the low strike on the cueball as screw or in extreme cases deep screw ...I always did like the English /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ...Bob

JJFSTAR
08-27-2008, 06:59 PM
Yea you aren’t going to get everyone to agree on what “English” means. I think Allan, Ewa and the rest just say high and low to make everyone who could possibly be watching understand. I have to go with Scott Lee on what should be done though. When I am teaching someone I never use high or low I say follow and draw instead. It is quick and convenient I think it is important to get the student to adopt my language of pool right from the start for convenience sake.

So I say, never say low always say draw. Never say the blue striped ball always say 10 etc... etc… And when you are in the last stages of teaching someone it is essential because some of them will ask “what would you use?” and they have to be clear on what “right draw four o’clock an 1/8th of a tip off center” means.

I think if you got all the announcers to just adopt this it would be beneficial but there is a better chance of pigs flying.

DeadCrab
08-27-2008, 07:36 PM
*************
The English along with never referring to any spin applied to the ball as english, they also refer to the low strike on the cueball as screw or in extreme cases deep screw ...I always did like the English \:\) ...Bob
***********************


They also refer to airplane propellers as "airscrews".

Seem to have one track minds, those Brits.

BigRigTom
08-28-2008, 09:53 AM
At the risk of furthering the confusion regarding the use of "english" what about people's understanding (or mis-understanding) of the terms...."Inside English" and "Outside English".....maybe the English are on the right track with that term "Screw".
It is always fun to listen to the Brits talk, especially when that announcer does the excited commentary on the pool matches. It is kind of like listening to Zepplin while watching a championship chess match.

av84fun
08-28-2008, 11:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea you aren’t going to get everyone to agree on what “English” means. I think Allan, Ewa and the rest just say high and low to make everyone who could possibly be watching understand. I have to go with Scott Lee on what should be done though. When I am teaching someone I never use high or low I say follow and draw instead. It is quick and convenient I think it is important to get the student to adopt my language of pool right from the start for convenience sake.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>So I say, never say low always say draw.</span> Never say the blue striped ball always say 10 etc... etc… And when you are in the last stages of teaching someone it is essential because some of them will ask “what would you use?” and they have to be clear on what “right draw four o’clock an 1/8th of a tip off center” means.

I think if you got all the announcers to just adopt this it would be beneficial but there is a better chance of pigs flying.
</div></div>

How could anyone possibly be confused over the use of either "low" or "draw"?

How could you describe a shot involving draw with left english more succinctly that "low left"?

"Bottom" and "Top" are also age-old and perfectly acceptable synonyms of "draw" and "follow."

Further, I disagree that you should get your students to adopt your pool language but rather to inform the student of ALL pool language that they will encounter in their pool lives.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> “right draw four o’clock an 1/8th of a tip off center” means.
</div></div>

I'm not sure that mortals can consistently execute 1/8 tip increments but your instructions could just as easily and correctly be described as "1/8 tip low right, four o'clock."

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
09-02-2008, 01:19 AM
Here is another "authority" on pool term definitions...the one and only Dr. Dave...from his "glossery" of pool terms.

"English: term usually used to refer to sidespin applied to the cue ball, but can also be used to refer to any type of spin applied to the cue ball (e.g., with draw and follow shots)."

Again, I'm not suggesting what is right or wrong. I am just saying that the genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to get him/her back in.

So, those of us who teach need to accommodate ourselves to the overriding issue...which is SPIN....and explain the effects of SPIN (or the lack thereof) around every axis...on pool balls.

Regards,
Jim

Fran Crimi
09-02-2008, 05:17 PM
So Michael, did you get enough answers to your question? So what did you learn? What exactly is Low English? Do tell. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif