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skin
08-28-2008, 07:32 PM
I have been experimenting with moving my grip hand up the cue so that the elbow angle is about 60 [edited] degrees when the tip strikes the cb - except on shots where I have to stretch, of course. So far, it seems to really improve accuracy and speed control. Probably because of the shorter stroke, I imagine. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a loss in power, either.

Then I was looking at some videos and noticed that Mosconi, Caras, and a player whose play I really like, Stevie Moore, also grip the cue that way. There are probably a lot of others I don't know about. I wonder if it is just what is comfortable for them or if their cues, like mine, have a balance point about 2 inches further towards the joint than usual.

Anyway, I was just wondering where other folks around here grip their cue and why. Is it related in any way to the balance point of your cue?

I like the feel of the hand moved up now and the improved results even though it violates the "rule" that the elbow angle should be 90 degrees when the tip strikes the cb.

Scott Lee
08-28-2008, 09:23 PM
The reason you want to grip the cue where your forearm falls at appx. 90 degrees to the cuestick, is so your cue can be level at contact...which is the only time the cue is level, in a pendulum swing...and the only time it needs to be level (as level as reasonable to the shot). Accurate contact on the CB is the only consistent way you'll improve your shotmaking. By holding your cue that far forward, your tip will not contact the CB exactly where you believe you want to. Can SOME expert players hold their cue in different places than 90 degrees, and be successful? Sure. Is it correct (read: integral) for the majority of poolplayers? We instructors don't believe so. The highest level of consistency lies in a repeatable stroke, which relies on certain repeatable processes, to create the most accurate setup and delivery system. For the huge majority of players, their accuracy and success is vastly improved by following the 90 degree concept, for their grip position. Rather than trying to copy what some pro does, you should do what YOU like.

Scott Lee

1Time
08-28-2008, 10:07 PM
The thing to do is to experiment and find what works best for you, even if it's different for different shots. Having an instructor advise you in person can speed up the process.

I'm down almost to my cue on some shots, fairly upright on others, and somewhere in between on most. However, the location of my grip hand on the cue doesn't move around much at all. This results in the elbow angle not remaining constant, and this doesn't hurt my game one bit. Again, you're best off trying different things and finding what works best for you.

av84fun
08-28-2008, 10:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been experimenting with moving my grip hand up the cue so that the elbow angle is about 60 [edited] degrees when the tip strikes the cb - except on shots where I have to stretch, of course. So far, it seems to really improve accuracy and speed control. Probably because of the shorter stroke, I imagine. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a loss in power, either.

Then I was looking at some videos and noticed that Mosconi, Caras, and a player whose play I really like, Stevie Moore, also grip the cue that way. There are probably a lot of others I don't know about. I wonder if it is just what is comfortable for them or if their cues, like mine, have a balance point about 2 inches further towards the joint than usual.

Anyway, I was just wondering where other folks around here grip their cue and why. Is it related in any way to the balance point of your cue?

I like the feel of the hand moved up now and the improved results even though it violates the "rule" that the elbow angle should be 90 degrees when the tip strikes the cb.

</div></div>

Skin, many of the players you mentioned used slip strokes so on the final backstroke, there grip hand moved back so that it was relatively square to the cue.

For those who suggest that not using the 90 degree angle doesn't hurt their game, you need to determine if they are playing championship pool. If not, then the inward angle may well be an issue.

In addition, Stevie is pretty square on most shots. Check out the following link at 3:12 and 3:33.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GktIHTc_ggg&feature=related

The few players who do address the CB with an angle inside 90 degrees are nowhere near the 30 degrees inside that angle that you have been experimenting with.

I don't know of any championship players that are that far inside.

Regards,
Jim

skin
08-29-2008, 05:16 AM
The few players who do address the CB with an angle inside 90 degrees are nowhere near the 30 degrees inside that angle that you have been experimenting with. - Jim

Woah, Jim! I took a look at the experimental angle from the side for the first time in a mirror this morning. It is more like 75 degrees instead of 60. It sure looks a lot more acute than that when looking back at it from the front. I guessed right before I edited last night (ha!).

It is still more acute than I normally play with (~90 degrees) though. What interests me about it in particular is the improved speed control and accuracy on short shots. It might turn out to be a good grip for me on short-medium long safety shots where speed is critical. Poor speed control has been killing my safety play recently. That's what got me to experimenting with moving the grip hand position (like choking up on a bat) in the beginning and then I went from there to see how it works in general. It has some merits and feels good on short shots, so I am going to keep putzing around with it in practice some more.

Thanks for your comments and the video link.

Thanks Scott and 1Time for your comments as well.

-skin

DeadCrab
08-29-2008, 07:18 AM
I fell into the same trap. In my case, it was because I was dropping my elbow. When your grip hand is farther forward, it is more forgiving of elbow drop. In fact, with your hand that far forward, you have to drop your elbow to follow through.

Try concentrating on keeping your "elbow pinned", and see if this makes it easier to use standard grip position.

av84fun
08-29-2008, 09:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The few players who do address the CB with an angle inside 90 degrees are nowhere near the 30 degrees inside that angle that you have been experimenting with. - Jim

Woah, Jim! I took a look at the experimental angle from the side for the first time in a mirror this morning. It is more like 75 degrees instead of 60. It sure looks a lot more acute than that when looking back at it from the front. I guessed right before I edited last night (ha!).

It is still more acute than I normally play with (~90 degrees) though. What interests me about it in particular is the improved speed control and accuracy on short shots. It might turn out to be a good grip for me on short-medium long safety shots where speed is critical. Poor speed control has been killing my safety play recently. That's what got me to experimenting with moving the grip hand position (like choking up on a bat) in the beginning and then I went from there to see how it works in general. It has some merits and feels good on short shots, so I am going to keep putzing around with it in practice some more.

Thanks for your comments and the video link.

Thanks Scott and 1Time for your comments as well.

-skin

</div></div>

Skin, try shortening your bridge length when shooting shorter shots. On very short finesse shots, I move the bridge up so that my extended fingers are nearly up to the CB.

Regards,
Jim

skin
08-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Skin, try shortening your bridge length when shooting shorter shots. On very short finesse shots, I move the bridge up so that my extended fingers are nearly up to the CB. - Jim

I'll pay attention to it next practice. Thanks for the suggestion.

btw: check out Luther Lassiter's forward hand position in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qCvGJNHZI

It is just about exactly what I have been practicing. I'm not trying to copy anybody's else's stroke; it was just coincidence that I started noticing this in some of the pros after I fooled around with it in practice. I really think there is something valuable there for me if I can figure out the right way to exploit it.

Also, you can go here to see Caras and Mosconi with their grip hand forward and they don't always slip stroke it back before contact. Looks like they do it mainly on tight shots.

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1317880474&channel=1138548612

Is pool a great game, or what?!

skin
08-29-2008, 11:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I fell into the same trap. In my case, it was because I was dropping my elbow. When your grip hand is farther forward, it is more forgiving of elbow drop. In fact, with your hand that far forward, you have to drop your elbow to follow through.

Try concentrating on keeping your "elbow pinned", and see if this makes it easier to use standard grip position.

</div></div>

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't think I am dropping my elbow, but I'll check it out.

-skin

wolfdancer
08-29-2008, 11:25 AM
I hope Scott takes your advice. I worked with him for a couple hours a few years back, and after the session, he insisted on staying with his setup and stroke.....probably why he hasn't improved much since

JJFSTAR
08-29-2008, 11:33 AM
skin I have always said to all my students that gripping the cue as far forward as they feel comfortable is the best idea for most shots. 90 degrees is an excellent bench mark place to begin. It is standard easy and easy to feel and check visually for most people.

When I filmed myself some time ago, and I highly recommend that you do. I found that I grip the stick at just less than 90 degrees so my grip is coming close to the balance point of my cue. At about 75 to 80 degrees for an average size person shooting with an average size stick that would be just about dead center of the balance point for most shooting cues and if you feel comfortable there I would consider that ideal.

I just off the top of my head would not grip above that line of the balance point. I would suggest that you check this and have it be the only adjustment that you make in the very near future. Good luck sounds like your game is going to take a big jump and isnít that a beautiful thing.

av84fun
08-29-2008, 01:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skin, try shortening your bridge length when shooting shorter shots. On very short finesse shots, I move the bridge up so that my extended fingers are nearly up to the CB. - Jim

I'll pay attention to it next practice. Thanks for the suggestion.

btw: check out Luther Lassiter's forward hand position in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qCvGJNHZI

It is just about exactly what I have been practicing. I'm not trying to copy anybody's else's stroke; it was just coincidence that I started noticing this in some of the pros after I fooled around with it in practice. I really think there is something valuable there for me if I can figure out the right way to exploit it.

Also, you can go here to see Caras and Mosconi with their grip hand forward and they don't always slip stroke it back before contact. Looks like they do it mainly on tight shots.

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1317880474&channel=1138548612

Is pool a great game, or what?! </div></div>

Nice clips skin. I've seen both before. Did you notice the size of the pockets in the Wimpy clip? They are MAYBE 4 inches!!!

Where the forward grip will hurt is on the power draw...a shot that was rarely necessary in the 14.1 era.

That is one reason why the vast majority of today's 9 Ball champions use the square shooting arm at address.

Of course, whatever works best for you is exactly what you should do. Jim Furyk didn't listen to traditional golf instruction!!! Nor Keith McCready about pool!

Regards,
Jim

skin
08-29-2008, 04:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">skin I have always said to all my students that gripping the cue as far forward as they feel comfortable is the best idea for most shots. 90 degrees is an excellent bench mark place to begin. It is standard easy and easy to feel and check visually for most people.

When I filmed myself some time ago, and I highly recommend that you do. I found that I grip the stick at just less than 90 degrees so my grip is coming close to the balance point of my cue. At about 75 to 80 degrees for an average size person shooting with an average size stick that would be just about dead center of the balance point for most shooting cues and if you feel comfortable there I would consider that ideal.

I just off the top of my head would not grip above that line of the balance point. I would suggest that you check this and have it be the only adjustment that you make in the very near future. Good luck sounds like your game is going to take a big jump and isnít that a beautiful thing.
</div></div>

Thanks very much for those encouraging thoughts JJFSTAR. My grip hand is closer to the balance point with the acute elbow angle and it makes the stick feel much more cooperative. I suspect that has a lot to do with the results.

And I DO need my game to take a big jump...because, frankly, I am getting tired of losing! :o)

-skin

skin
08-29-2008, 04:13 PM
Of course, whatever works best for you is exactly what you should do. Jim Furyk didn't listen to traditional golf instruction!!! Nor Keith McCready about pool!- Jim

I'll add to that...nor Ichiro about batting!

PRQL8R
08-29-2008, 07:07 PM
I also favour and encourage keeping the grip hand in position approximately 90 degrees down from the elbow. However, when I first saw the title for this thread I assumed it was refering to how different players actually gripped the cue.

Not my intent to "Highjack the thread" but I do feel this is also related. I see considerable variation in this amongst the pros as well as the average room player. Bustamente would certainly be at one extreme with his very fluid, feathery grip and precise follow through. I then see others, probably due to nerves grip the cue much too tightly. Based upon advice I received some years ago on this board from ####leonard... I myself have developed quite a loose grip that also encorporates curling my little finger above the cue and lightly pressing (w/the back of the finger)the cue back into my palm. This has the advantage for me of preventing any turning of my wrist during the follow through and giving me a more consistent level, straight stroke.

I would be interested in hearing if other players utilize any particular grip techniques to maintain a consistent stroke. ...Bob

Scott Lee
08-29-2008, 07:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope Scott takes your advice. I worked with him for a couple hours a few years back, and after the session, he insisted on staying with his setup and stroke.....probably why he hasn't improved much since </div></div>

Well Jack, that setup and stroke got me a very well-produced dvd instructional series...which you don't own yet (how come?...for the guy who has EVERY other video and doodad out there). I guess I'll be keeping what I got for awhile! LOL Oh yeah...since I haven't improved much, I guess you'd probably give me the 7 and the break, for $100 a rack? I'll bring Tom with me...as my BACKER!

Scott Lee

skin
08-29-2008, 07:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope Scott takes your advice. I worked with him for a couple hours a few years back, and after the session, he insisted on staying with his setup and stroke.....probably why he hasn't improved much since </div></div>

Well Jack, that setup and stroke got me a very well-produced dvd instructional series...which you don't own yet (how come?...for the guy who has EVERY other video and doodad out there). I guess I'll be keeping what I got for awhile! LOL Oh yeah...since I haven't improved much, I guess you'd probably give me the 7 and the break, for $100 a rack? I'll bring Tom with me...as my BACKER!

Scott Lee </div></div>

The difference between sharking and the shark within illustrated. Sharking is all about mouth. The shark within is all about consumption.

If a guy is willing to give the 7 and the break, try to trade the break for the eight. Then play a game of safeties on him if he agrees.... That's what drove me out of gambling and playing at a young age. You can't lose if get that spot and you can't win if you give it, like I did.

av84fun
08-30-2008, 01:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope Scott takes your advice. I worked with him for a couple hours a few years back, and after the session, he insisted on staying with his setup and stroke.....probably why he hasn't improved much since </div></div>

Well Jack, that setup and stroke got me a very well-produced dvd instructional series...which you don't own yet (how come?...for the guy who has EVERY other video and doodad out there). I guess I'll be keeping what I got for awhile! LOL Oh yeah...since I haven't improved much, I guess you'd probably give me the 7 and the break, for $100 a rack? I'll bring Tom with me...as my BACKER!

Scott Lee </div></div>

The difference between sharking and the shark within illustrated. Sharking is all about mouth. The shark within is all about consumption.

If a guy is willing to give the 7 and the break, try to trade the break for the eight. Then play a game of safeties on him if he agrees.... That's what drove me out of gambling and playing at a young age. You can't lose if get that spot and you can't win if you give it, like I did. </div></div>

That depends A LOT on the speed of the players. With A players and above, the break is a MUCH bigger spot than the 8 ball...which wouldn't be a factor much more than 1 or 2 racks in 10.

Regards,
Jim

skin
08-30-2008, 08:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That depends A LOT on the speed of the players. With A players and above, the break is a MUCH bigger spot than the 8 ball...which wouldn't be a factor much more than 1 or 2 racks in 10.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>

The eight with the 7 spot puts a 3rd money ball on the table your opponent has to defend against you making on combos and caroms without having to worry about staying in line to continue your run. It is a huge spot with the 7. I always weighted the break as a half-ball spot; 3/4 ball at most at the level I played.

With guys who can consistently break and run 3 racks on you, simple - don't play them unless you are their equal or you have money to burn! :o)

av84fun
08-30-2008, 01:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That depends A LOT on the speed of the players. With A players and above, the break is a MUCH bigger spot than the 8 ball...which wouldn't be a factor much more than 1 or 2 racks in 10.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>


The eight with the 7 spot puts a 3rd money ball on the table your opponent has to defend against you making on combos and caroms without having to worry about staying in line to continue your run. It is a huge spot with the 7. I always weighted the break as a half-ball spot; 3/4 ball at most at the level I played.

With guys who can consistently break and run 3 racks on you, simple - don't play them unless you are their equal or you have money to burn! :o) </div></div>

If the opponent can't run racks, the he isn't going to be making many caroms or combos.

Since you already have the 7 ball, the 8 will only help you if...

You make it on the break which is a VERY low probability event or

If the opponent dogs the 8 himself.

As I mentioned, a lot depends on the opponent's speed.

An age-old hustle is to give huge weight...like the 5 ball, in exchange for the break in an ahead set.

A "B" player has no chance against a shortstop on up with that kind of spot.

I have heard (but don't know first hand) that Shannon Daulton would give C players "any legal ball pocketed" as weight in a 10 ahead set.

So...fine...the mark makes a ball and wins the rack. Then he gets to go sit down at which point for the C player to win another rack Shannon had to break dry AND leave a makable shot on the lowest ball....AND the C player has to run out a full nine ball layout.

Not gonna happen very often.

I'll be playing in one of Shannons GSBT events in Atlanta next month and I'll ask him if the above is true.


Regards,
Jim

wolfdancer
08-30-2008, 02:02 PM
Geez, I thought you was in Hawaii, buying more shirts, and figured I could slip that in unnoticed.....
I forgot about your DVDs...and pool is on the back burner for the summer, while I(try) to play some golf.....I need to get 79 rds in just to break even on the yearly fee...
Count me in as a customer though....I'll get back to you on the details

wolfdancer
08-30-2008, 02:16 PM
I was just kidding Scott. I was the one that took a lesson from him a few years ago in the Bay Area. And a year ago at the BCA in LV, watched as he helped out anyone that dropped in to the CueTec school's hospitality suite, with free video analysis.
He's an even better instructor now (imo) after hooking up with RandyG.
I'm sure he could give me the 7, maybe even all the odd numbered balls.
There was an article written a few years ago, on giving up weight in pool, and had the different spots graded.
I remember this from even further back....and somebody correct me if I'm wrong:
To give up the 7 ball, you need to be twice as good as your opponent...

av84fun
08-30-2008, 04:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just kidding Scott. I was the one that took a lesson from him a few years ago in the Bay Area. And a year ago at the BCA in LV, watched as he helped out anyone that dropped in to the CueTec school's hospitality suite, with free video analysis.
He's an even better instructor now (imo) after hooking up with RandyG.
I'm sure he could give me the 7, maybe even all the odd numbered balls.
There was an article written a few years ago, on giving up weight in pool, and had the different spots graded.
I remember this from even further back....and somebody correct me if I'm wrong:
To give up the 7 ball, you need to be twice as good as your opponent... </div></div>

In my experience...which is all I have to go by...that isn't necessarily correct.

First, a lot depends on whehter the match is winner or altrnate break...and whether it is a race or an ahead set.

Since racked properly, the weight ball isn't going on the break enough to make any differnece in the match. For the 7 ball to do any real good, the 8/9 have to be laying very funny.

After all, when shooting at the 7, the shooter is playing "3 ball" and even B players out to get out playing 3 ball a very large percentage of the time.

It also depends on the skill of the players. Single weight balls become more important at the lower skill levels. But given faster players, the 7 Ball won't make difference in more than 1 or 2 racks in 10...maybe not even that often.

Regards,
Jim

skin
08-30-2008, 05:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If the opponent can't run racks, the he isn't going to be making many caroms or combos.

Since you already have the 7 ball, the 8 will only help you if...

You make it on the break which is a VERY low probability event or

If the opponent dogs the 8 himself.

As I mentioned, a lot depends on the opponent's speed.

An age-old hustle is to give huge weight...like the 5 ball, in exchange for the break in an ahead set.

A "B" player has no chance against a shortstop on up with that kind of spot.

I have heard (but don't know first hand) that Shannon Daulton would give C players "any legal ball pocketed" as weight in a 10 ahead set.

So...fine...the mark makes a ball and wins the rack. Then he gets to go sit down at which point for the C player to win another rack Shannon had to break dry AND leave a makable shot on the lowest ball....AND the C player has to run out a full nine ball layout.

Not gonna happen very often.

I'll be playing in one of Shannons GSBT events in Atlanta next month and I'll ask him if the above is true.


Regards,
Jim </div></div>

I don't know, Jim. I think you are underestimating the value of those spots given to a player who understands the game. I guess a big, chomping statistical analysis could settle it. :o)

At any rate, I'll keep what you said in mind if a situation ever comes up for me. Thanks for your thoughts.

-skin

av84fun
08-30-2008, 08:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If the opponent can't run racks, the he isn't going to be making many caroms or combos.

Since you already have the 7 ball, the 8 will only help you if...

You make it on the break which is a VERY low probability event or

If the opponent dogs the 8 himself.

As I mentioned, a lot depends on the opponent's speed.

An age-old hustle is to give huge weight...like the 5 ball, in exchange for the break in an ahead set.

A "B" player has no chance against a shortstop on up with that kind of spot.

I have heard (but don't know first hand) that Shannon Daulton would give C players "any legal ball pocketed" as weight in a 10 ahead set.

So...fine...the mark makes a ball and wins the rack. Then he gets to go sit down at which point for the C player to win another rack Shannon had to break dry AND leave a makable shot on the lowest ball....AND the C player has to run out a full nine ball layout.

Not gonna happen very often.

I'll be playing in one of Shannons GSBT events in Atlanta next month and I'll ask him if the above is true.


Regards,
Jim </div></div>

I don't know, Jim. I think you are underestimating the value of those spots given to a player who understands the game. I guess a big, chomping statistical analysis could settle it. :o)

At any rate, I'll keep what you said in mind if a situation ever comes up for me. Thanks for your thoughts.

-skin </div></div>

Could be skin. I've even seen B players win against a pro or top roadie with the 7/8 in ahead sets.....about twice in my life!!

Remember that the formats such as winner breaks and ahead sets evolved from the roadie/huster community and were SPECIFICALLY designed to give THEM the edge.

Consider this. Say the 7/8 evens the playing field AFTER the break (no spot makes the undergod a better breaker).

So, odds are that the players will essentially trade racks for a while.

BUT...the player who needs that kind of weight is rarely going to put on 5 or 6 packs.

So, after 10 racks, the score is zero in an ahead set. Then the roadie puts a 5 pack on the opponent.

Then they trade another 10 racks...then the roadie puts on another 5 pack. Bingo bango bongo.

In the meantime, any time the opponent breaks dry or has to push or has to decide on taking or giving back the roadie's pushout, the lesser player figures to lose and the gunslinger gets the break back.

It's fun to handicap matches. I've done more than my share and I'm riding with the top player against any B player who wants to gamble with weight.

Finally, to decide how much weight you might need I would do this.

Play modified Ghost Ball sets. If your weight is the 7 ball, don't just rack 7 balls and play the 7 Ball Ghost but rack all 9 take BIH and try to run out to the 7. (cosiderably more difficult because of the additional blockers)

If you can run out 8 out of 10 racks, you <u>might</u> have a chance with a top roadie. But you would still be the underdog. The top players under the same conditions will run out to the 9 ball 90% of the time and that 10 percentage point advantage will wear you out in an ahead set.

Just my experience. Others may have had differenct views.

(-:

Jim

wolfdancer
08-30-2008, 11:20 PM
I don't gamble at pool, so I'm not an authority on "adjustments" I'd be interested in hearing a few more takes on the subject.

skin
08-31-2008, 07:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Could be skin. I've even seen B players win against a pro or top roadie with the 7/8 in ahead sets.....about twice in my life!!

Remember that the formats such as winner breaks and ahead sets evolved from the roadie/huster community and were SPECIFICALLY designed to give THEM the edge.

Consider this. Say the 7/8 evens the playing field AFTER the break (no spot makes the undergod a better breaker).

So, odds are that the players will essentially trade racks for a while.

BUT...the player who needs that kind of weight is rarely going to put on 5 or 6 packs.

So, after 10 racks, the score is zero in an ahead set. Then the roadie puts a 5 pack on the opponent.

Then they trade another 10 racks...then the roadie puts on another 5 pack. Bingo bango bongo.

In the meantime, any time the opponent breaks dry or has to push or has to decide on taking or giving back the roadie's pushout, the lesser player figures to lose and the gunslinger gets the break back.

It's fun to handicap matches. I've done more than my share and I'm riding with the top player against any B player who wants to gamble with weight.

Finally, to decide how much weight you might need I would do this.

Play modified Ghost Ball sets. If your weight is the 7 ball, don't just rack 7 balls and play the 7 Ball Ghost but rack all 9 take BIH and try to run out to the 7. (cosiderably more difficult because of the additional blockers)

If you can run out 8 out of 10 racks, you <u>might</u> have a chance with a top roadie. But you would still be the underdog. The top players under the same conditions will run out to the 9 ball 90% of the time and that 10 percentage point advantage will wear you out in an ahead set.

Just my experience. Others may have had differenct views.

(-:

Jim

</div></div>

Jim, at my age with my present eyesight, the very last thing on Earth I want to do is be in a money game with a top roadie, no matter what the spot! I think I'll leave that to the young gunslingers instead and just keep putzing around with my mechanics until I can make a ball again.

You're a good contributor around here. Thanks for the conversation. I learned something from you.

-skin

skin
08-31-2008, 07:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just kidding Scott. I was the one that took a lesson from him a few years ago in the Bay Area. And a year ago at the BCA in LV, watched as he helped out anyone that dropped in to the CueTec school's hospitality suite, with free video analysis.
He's an even better instructor now (imo) after hooking up with RandyG.
I'm sure he could give me the 7, maybe even all the odd numbered balls.
There was an article written a few years ago, on giving up weight in pool, and had the different spots graded.
I remember this from even further back....and somebody correct me if I'm wrong:
To give up the 7 ball, you need to be twice as good as your opponent... </div></div>

Got it. Just thought I'd harmlessly try to use the exchange between you two to make a point that was developed in another thread. No harm, no foul I hope.

-skin

Snapshot9
09-03-2008, 07:10 AM
Now, back to the original topic. Having your grip hand forward of 90 degrees smacks of trying to guide the cue, and also trying to overcome having your upper arm and shoulder involved in the stroke.

And how about that grip? Do you use a full fist grip? If you do, I guarantee you to have trouble with long shots, and with your tip going up to the left at the end of your stroke.

When you start modifying the prescribed form (it is prescribed for many reasons), you have to keep compensating because of the original modifications you made. Pretty soon, when your stroke has all kinds of problems, you try to do something else instead of just doing the right way, and training yourself to do it the right way. Always go back to basics when your stroke is off ... always .... Your stroke may be off because you are standing wrong. I see lots of tall guys putting too much weight on their front foot which will give you stroke problems.

Stroke mechanics are MORE IMPORTANT than making the next ball.
Keep things in the proper perspective. I can teach you how to make the next ball, even with a bad stroke, but that is no guarantee you will make any after that. If I teach you good form and stroke mechanics, you can learn to make EVERY BALL.

av84fun
09-03-2008, 09:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snapshot9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, back to the original topic. Having your grip hand forward of 90 degrees smacks of trying to guide the cue, and also trying to overcome having your upper arm and shoulder involved in the stroke.

And how about that grip? Do you use a full fist grip? If you do, I guarantee you to have trouble with long shots, and with your tip going up to the left at the end of your stroke.

When you start modifying the prescribed form (it is prescribed for many reasons), you have to keep compensating because of the original modifications you made. Pretty soon, when your stroke has all kinds of problems, you try to do something else instead of just doing the right way, and training yourself to do it the right way. Always go back to basics when your stroke is off ... always .... Your stroke may be off because you are standing wrong. I see lots of tall guys putting too much weight on their front foot which will give you stroke problems.

Stroke mechanics are MORE IMPORTANT than making the next ball.
Keep things in the proper perspective. I can teach you how to make the next ball, even with a bad stroke, but that is no guarantee you will make any after that. If I teach you good form and stroke mechanics, you can learn to make EVERY BALL. </div></div>

Excellent post.

Scott Lee
09-03-2008, 02:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snapshot9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Do you use a full fist grip? If you do, I guarantee you to have trouble with long shots, and with your tip going up to the left at the end of your stroke.</div></div>

Not true Scott! It doesn't matter at all how you hold on to the cuestick. What matters is how much grip PRESSURE is exerted at contact with the CB. I use a full hand grip; my tip goes straight through the CB; and I have no trouble with long shots. I just don't 'squeeze' the cue tightly, as I strike the CB.

Scott Lee

Fran Crimi
09-03-2008, 03:51 PM
Several players have been known to use that grip but I don't recall seeing them use it when they have to shoot a long shot and make the cb travel around the table. I think they move their grip back for those types of shots.

Diversity is the key.

Fran

av84fun
09-03-2008, 04:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snapshot9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Do you use a full fist grip? If you do, I guarantee you to have trouble with long shots, and with your tip going up to the left at the end of your stroke.</div></div>

Not true Scott! It doesn't matter at all how you hold on to the cuestick. What matters is how much grip PRESSURE is exerted at contact with the CB. I use a full hand grip; my tip goes straight through the CB; and I have no trouble with long shots. I just don't 'squeeze' the cue tightly, as I strike the CB.

Scott Lee </div></div>

If I may jump in here....I didn't take issue with Scott's post re: "full fist grip" since mistakenly or otherwise, I assumed he meant a "tight" grip involving all five digets throughout the stroke.

I have never seen a top player who starts with all 5 digets wrapped on the butt to KEEP them wrapped all the way to the end of the backstroke.

Rather, there is a separation of at least the baby finger toward the end of the backstroke.

I assume you do as well and I can see where not doing so might well cause problems.

Correct?

Regards,
Jim

skin
09-03-2008, 04:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several players have been known to use that grip but I don't recall seeing them use it when they have to shoot a long shot and make the cb travel around the table. I think they move their grip back for those types of shots.

Diversity is the key.

Fran </div></div>

Thanks for your obesrevations, Fran. The long shots are ones I can make with high consistency with the grip hand back. It is the short, tight shots requiring prefect accuracy and speed that have been my trouble point lately. That's when moving the grip hand up on the cue has helped. I am starting to conclude that both are due to my being far-sighted and using a cue with a balance point about 4 inches from the top of the wrap. It also has a 13 mm shaft which gives me sighting problems on close shots.

I just got a new cue in today with a balance point just under 2 inches from the top of the wrap and a 12.5 mm shaft. I can't wait to see what diffence, if any, it makes. If it doesn't help on the trouble shots, then I'll know it is far-sightedness and will start homing in on adjustments for that.

One thing, though - I am going to get to where I can make a ball again come...(ahem)...or high water. :o)

-skin

skin
09-03-2008, 05:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snapshot9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, back to the original topic. Having your grip hand forward of 90 degrees smacks of trying to guide the cue, and also trying to overcome having your upper arm and shoulder involved in the stroke.

And how about that grip? Do you use a full fist grip? If you do, I guarantee you to have trouble with long shots, and with your tip going up to the left at the end of your stroke.

When you start modifying the prescribed form (it is prescribed for many reasons), you have to keep compensating because of the original modifications you made. Pretty soon, when your stroke has all kinds of problems, you try to do something else instead of just doing the right way, and training yourself to do it the right way. Always go back to basics when your stroke is off ... always .... Your stroke may be off because you are standing wrong. I see lots of tall guys putting too much weight on their front foot which will give you stroke problems.

Stroke mechanics are MORE IMPORTANT than making the next ball.
Keep things in the proper perspective. I can teach you how to make the next ball, even with a bad stroke, but that is no guarantee you will make any after that. If I teach you good form and stroke mechanics, you can learn to make EVERY BALL. </div></div>

I figure I should reply to this since others are.

My grip, stroke, and stance are sound. They always have been far above average. Soundness in those areas has always been natural to me. My worst tendency is to bend the wrist inwards during the strike forward, but I catch that because I can feel when I have done it, and correct quickly.

So, the problem is something else. And as I wrote above I think it is either my eyesight or my stick. I'm 53 y/o comning back to the game seriously with some realistic goals. It doesn't surprise me that I will need to find adjustments now that I didn't when I was in my teens and 20s. The body changes and, in my opinion, if you want to play really well you have to find compensations for those changes instead of being stubborn. It is part of the mental game.

Mechanics are, of course, the first place to begin and the last place to end, as you point out correctly. But at the same time, being a slave to a system that works for young players (or worked when you were young) will only make you an old loser if it is not working for you now.

The key is to stay on top of knowing what your body can do at the time, and be wise and experienced enough to adjust to what you cannot change, so you can still win. I know a ton more now about how to do that from this thread than I did when I started it.

Thanks very much for your thoughts. And thanks, to everybody else. This is a good place to learn.

-skin

av84fun
09-03-2008, 11:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several players have been known to use that grip but I don't recall seeing them use it when they have to shoot a long shot and make the cb travel around the table. I think they move their grip back for those types of shots.

Diversity is the key.

Fran </div></div>

Thanks for your obesrevations, Fran. The long shots are ones I can make with high consistency with the grip hand back. <span style='font-size: 14pt'>It is the short, tight shots requiring prefect accuracy and speed that have been my trouble point lately.</span> That's when moving the grip hand up on the cue has helped. I am starting to conclude that both are due to my being far-sighted and using a cue with a balance point about 4 inches from the top of the wrap. It also has a 13 mm shaft which gives me sighting problems on close shots.

I just got a new cue in today with a balance point just under 2 inches from the top of the wrap and a 12.5 mm shaft. I can't wait to see what diffence, if any, it makes. If it doesn't help on the trouble shots, then I'll know it is far-sightedness and will start homing in on adjustments for that.

One thing, though - I am going to get to where I can make a ball again come...(ahem)...or high water. :o)

-skin </div></div>

Sorry if I've already chimed in on this but I serious suggest that in addition to experimenting with a more forward grip hand position (that I don't advocate but hey...whatever works) that you shorten your bridge length.

Hopkins and Julie Kelly have proven that a VERY short backstroke can be deadly accurate.

There is a certain "locked and loaded" feeling you get when taking the ferrule all the way back to your bridge hand.

If you do that from your normal bridge length and then try a short finesse shot there is just a major mismatch IMHO. You have to try to "guide" the cue forward with an artificially slow pace and all kinds of bad things happen when you do that.

Better to make your full backstroke TWO INCHES long...all the way back into your bridge hand and stroke smoothly and directly forward from there.

And because you are so close to the CB, the cue simply doesn't have time to accelerate. Look at the speed plots on the Dr. Dave/Bob Jewett videos recently posted.

Now translate that to what speed you would achieve with the SAME force, if the tip struck the CB after only an inch of travel!

So, shorten your bridge distance and do the following drill.

Put the CB on the spot.

Take a SUPER short bridge distance and move the CB forward the shortest distance possible.

Mark that distance with a coin off to the side.

Now replace the CB and shoot again so that you JUST pass the first distance.

Keep doing that and see how many shots you can take before the CB touches the head rail.

If you fall short, you have to start over.

A world class instructor who I have had the pleasure to work with has actually marked the shaft of a cheap cue with a pencil in increments of about 1 inch behind the ferrule.

And taking the cue back so that those hash marks get back to the fulcrum of his open bridge produces VERY predicatble cb travel lengths.

Of course, you have to lengthen your bridge length in order to get to the longer hash marks.

Try it. I really think it will help you take control of your finesse shots.

(-:

Jim

skin
09-04-2008, 07:23 AM
Great advice, Jim. I'll give the drill a try in practice. Sounds like it can't do anything but help. Thanks.

-skin

Fran Crimi
09-04-2008, 09:54 AM
About shooting short shots, skin ---- It's important that you line the shot up before you step into it. With you being farsighted you probably do that more naturally when you shoot long shots but I'm wondering if the discomfort you feel with your vision is preventing you from stepping into the shot properly on the shorter shots.

Try taking your time a bit more on the short shots and spend an extra second or two on seeing the shot before you step into it. I think that may help. Also, if there's room, try standing a little farther back from the table to line up the shot visually before you step into it. That may work well with your vision issues. I've seen lots of players do that, including myself. In fact, it's a pet peeve of mine when the tables are so close together where I can't do that. It really irks me.

But I think you're really onto something in diagnosing your far-sightedness being a possible factor. (That's good troubleshooting work on your part.) You may find that you might not even have to move your grip hand up if you adjust your approach. Moving your grip hand up is not a terrible thing to do but it could get you into some trouble in other areas.

Fran

skin
09-04-2008, 10:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About shooting short shots, skin ---- It's important that you line the shot up before you step into it. With you being farsighted you probably do that more naturally when you shoot long shots but I'm wondering if the discomfort you feel with your vision is preventing you from stepping into the shot properly on the shorter shots.

Try taking your time a bit more on the short shots and spend an extra second or two on seeing the shot before you step into it. I think that may help. Also, if there's room, try standing a little farther back from the table to line up the shot visually before you step into it. That may work well with your vision issues. I've seen lots of players do that, including myself. In fact, it's a pet peeve of mine when the tables are so close together where I can't do that. It really irks me.

But I think you're really onto something in diagnosing your far-sightedness being a possible factor. (That's good troubleshooting work on your part.) You may find that you might not even have to move your grip hand up if you adjust your approach. Moving your grip hand up is not a terrible thing to do but it could get you into some trouble in other areas.

Fran </div></div>

Fran, I've got to hand it to you. You're a genius. What you suggested worked! Everything feels totally "in sync" now and I shot much, much better in the local tournament tonight. Getting father back to line up and taking more time before stepping into the shot was THE missing piece to the puzzle. Thanks a million!

Jim, I also took your advice about shortening the stroke length on tight shots. My accuracy & speed control was much better there. I was able to nail a couple of very close, delicate safeties without bringing my grip hand forward. Plus, I was able to get the right position going through a couple of clusters. Sweet! Thanks very much for that great tip. It paid off tonight.

You know, you two ought to be pool instructors or something. :o)

-skin

av84fun
09-04-2008, 10:43 PM
THANKS skin. Congrats on playing better in your matches!

Not to put you into sensory overload but here's another great drill for finesse shots.

Put the CB along the right long rail 1 diamond up from the side pocket and about a ball off the rail.

Put an OB 1 diamond below the side pocket also about a ball off the rail.

The object is to pocket the OB and to carry the CB the smallest possible distance after impact.

Mark that distance with a coin on the cushion.

Then resent the balls, make the OB and carry the CB as slightly farther down table as possible.

The goal is to see how many shots you can make before the CB scratches or hits the foot rail.


Give youself ONE "mulligan" if the CB doesn't pass the previous distance.

If you fall short twice or miss the shot then the inning is over.

My personal best is 13 shots which is quite a challenge...and I admit to a couple of lucky attempts where the CB passed the former distance by less than 1/4 inch.

The key is bridge length adjustment and progressively but slightly higher tip contact vs. center ball which is about where you should start...or a touch lower.

Just practice for a while to get the feel of the drill before starting your innings.

The drill addresses distance control, concentration and maintenance of a dead straight stroke. Many people tend to dog their strokes on finesse type shots.

Regards,
Jim

skin
09-04-2008, 11:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THANKS skin. Congrats on playing better in your matches!

Not to put you into sensory overload but here's another great drill for finesse shots.

Put the CB along the right long rail 1 diamond up from the side pocket and about a ball off the rail.

Put an OB 1 diamond below the side pocket also about a ball off the rail.

The object is to pocket the OB and to carry the CB the smallest possible distance after impact.

Mark that distance with a coin on the cushion.

Then resent the balls, make the OB and carry the CB as slightly farther down table as possible.

The goal is to see how many shots you can make before the CB scratches or hits the foot rail.


Give youself ONE "mulligan" if the CB doesn't pass the previous distance.

If you fall short twice or miss the shot then the inning is over.

My personal best is 13 shots which is quite a challenge...and I admit to a couple of lucky attempts where the CB passed the former distance by less than 1/4 inch.

The key is bridge length adjustment and progressively but slightly higher tip contact vs. center ball which is about where you should start...or a touch lower.

Just practice for a while to get the feel of the drill before starting your innings.

The drill addresses distance control, concentration and maintenance of a dead straight stroke. Many people tend to dog their strokes on finesse type shots.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>

I'll try it the first chance I get, Jim.

I met a guy tonight who has a table for sale at the right price, so soon I may be able to practice more than a few hours per week. That will help because I noticed I am still playing a little scared due to having forgotten some of the finer points about spin.

I have to hand it to my new cue with the 12.5 mm shaft, also. It is so much easier to sight without that 13 mm tree trunk I have been using.

There simply is no "high" like being in dead stroke. I almost got there tonight. Next week's tournament after a few more hours of practice...perhaps.

Thanks again for helping me. I am determined to reach my goal.

-skin

Fran Crimi
09-05-2008, 09:19 AM
Hey, glad to hear it helped. That's good news. I looked into possibly being an instructor but it's too much work. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Fran

DickLeonard
09-05-2008, 10:26 AM
Skin when you watch Whimpy stroke, when his hand passes a certain point he transfers the cue to his back fingers. This keeps his cue level for a few more inches.

Try stroking with wrist only and see how far the cue will travel.

Try throwing the cue with your wrist as it looks like Lassiter is doing in the Video and catch it with the last fingers.

And if you have nothing but time on your hands try mastering this way of sstroking. Remember you can be a golf pro in less time.####