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FastMikie
09-01-2008, 12:30 AM
There was an old post (more than 2.5 years old) on BilliardsDigest.com describing Skill Levels (A, B, C, etc.) and the differences between them.

However, I have not been able to find that post, and the search function is not finding it either.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike

New2Pool
09-01-2008, 10:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FastMikie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was an old post (more than 2.5 years old) on BilliardsDigest.com describing Skill Levels (A, B, C, etc.) and the differences between them.

However, I have not been able to find that post, and the search function is not finding it either.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike </div></div>

Sorry, I could not find the exact post. If you want to try some more go to http://www.google.com and try:

skill ranking compare site:http://www.billiardsdigest.com/forums/

Try other terms instead of skill ranking. I found a lot of things similar to what you were looking for but nothing exactly matching your criteria. Maybe others will have more luck.

FastMikie
09-01-2008, 11:50 AM
Will it help if I give you the message number?

Can you find message number 30732 ???

Thanks for the help.

av84fun
09-01-2008, 03:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FastMikie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was an old post (more than 2.5 years old) on BilliardsDigest.com describing Skill Levels (A, B, C, etc.) and the differences between them.

However, I have not been able to find that post, and the search function is not finding it either.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike </div></div>

Even if you find it, there is no "official" skill rating and no system that I have ever seen that does more than provide a very general standard of measurment.

And, of course, skill ratings are necessarily game-specific.

Regards,
Jim

skin
09-01-2008, 04:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FastMikie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was an old post (more than 2.5 years old) on BilliardsDigest.com describing Skill Levels (A, B, C, etc.) and the differences between them.

However, I have not been able to find that post, and the search function is not finding it either.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike </div></div>

Try this, Mike.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=30566#Post30566

Post # 30732 is in this thread which is not about your subject:

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=30727#Post30727

It just took a little grunt work going through the archives.


-skin

btw: Are you the blogging FastMikie "in search of Truth and Beauty in the art of pocket billiards"? Been following along for a while. Very entertaining stuff.

Rich R.
09-01-2008, 07:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try this, Mike.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=30566#Post30566</div></div>

Mike, Skin is probably giving you the same post that was on this forum. The original poster, Tom, is also a member here, under a different name, and I believe he posted these rankings on both forums, at different times. Keep in mind, these rankings are not official in any way and they are just an opinion, even if they are accurate.

skin
09-01-2008, 08:22 PM
Dave Alciatore has some references to skill ratings under "player practice and rating drills" on this page of his, if interested--

http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html

skin
09-02-2008, 04:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FastMikie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was an old post (more than 2.5 years old) on BilliardsDigest.com describing Skill Levels (A, B, C, etc.) and the differences between them.

However, I have not been able to find that post, and the search function is not finding it either.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike </div></div>

Even if you find it, there is no "official" skill rating and no system that I have ever seen that does more than provide a very general standard of measurment.

And, of course, skill ratings are necessarily game-specific.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>

Here's the problem with developing skill ratings based on balls run after the break with cue in hand, in my opinion. By my calculations, there are approximtely 830!/821! different possible ball arrangements (using 9 balls) on a 9 foot table, assuming the table can hold 830 balls at one time (there are actually many more possible spots for a ball on the table than 830).

So, the low estimate is about 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (200 septillion) different possible arrangements of nine balls on a nine foot table. Check my math on that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

The actual number is probably unimportant since you see the problem - the chance that any two players will shoot the same arrangements of balls during an assessment of skill using the number of balls run after the break is vanishingly small. You are not even comparing apples and oranges that way - more like comparing apples with toaster ovens with flying geese, etc.

A more precise way to assess skill is to do something like is done in artistic pool (http://www.artisticpoolplayers.com/shot_program/shot_program_current.php) and artistic billiards (http://www.ciba-online.net/) where there are set layouts that each player shoots for points. I think it would be possible to come up with, say, a hundred different set 9 ball layouts that have increasing difficulty in running out as you go through the pattern. That is, 1-3 easy, 4-6 intermediate, 7-9 difficult. Then, to compare skill levels among players at any given time, you just select some of them and have all players shoot them for points awarded. The same could be done for all the games probably, although 14.1 and one-pocket would take some creativity. Or a standard all-in-one assessment based on set patterns could be developed with a catalog of set shots included as well.

If you do this kind of assessment as a qualifier pre-tournament, for example, the players would be competing for seeding positions based on score, which would provide the incentive for giving the best performance. You just need a governing body and the players to buy into it, and then it is "official".

Presto! Problem solved.

-skin

[This also would provide a possible way for pool instructors to objectively assess learning and skill development in their students. How do they do it now? I don't know.]

av84fun
09-02-2008, 11:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FastMikie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was an old post (more than 2.5 years old) on BilliardsDigest.com describing Skill Levels (A, B, C, etc.) and the differences between them.

However, I have not been able to find that post, and the search function is not finding it either.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike </div></div>

Even if you find it, there is no "official" skill rating and no system that I have ever seen that does more than provide a very general standard of measurment.

And, of course, skill ratings are necessarily game-specific.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>

Here's the problem with developing skill ratings based on balls run after the break with cue in hand, in my opinion. By my calculations, there are approximtely 830!/821! different possible ball arrangements (using 9 balls) on a 9 foot table, assuming the table can hold 830 balls at one time (there are actually many more possible spots for a ball on the table than 830).

So, the low estimate is about 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (200 septillion) different possible arrangements of nine balls on a nine foot table. Check my math on that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

The actual number is probably unimportant since you see the problem - the chance that any two players will shoot the same arrangements of balls during an assessment of skill using the number of balls run after the break is vanishingly small. You are not even comparing apples and oranges that way - more like comparing apples with toaster ovens with flying geese, etc.

A more precise way to assess skill is to do something like is done in artistic pool (http://www.artisticpoolplayers.com/shot_program/shot_program_current.php) and artistic billiards (http://www.ciba-online.net/) where there are set layouts that each player shoots for points. I think it would be possible to come up with, say, a hundred different set 9 ball layouts that have increasing difficulty in running out as you go through the pattern. That is, 1-3 easy, 4-6 intermediate, 7-9 difficult. Then, to compare skill levels among players at any given time, you just select some of them and have all players shoot them for points awarded. The same could be done for all the games probably, although 14.1 and one-pocket would take some creativity. Or a standard all-in-one assessment based on set patterns could be developed with a catalog of set shots included as well.

If you do this kind of assessment as a qualifier pre-tournament, for example, the players would be competing for seeding positions based on score, which would provide the incentive for giving the best performance. You just need a governing body and the players to buy into it, and then it is "official".

Presto! Problem solved.

-skin

[This also would provide a possible way for pool instructors to objectively assess learning and skill development in their students. How do they do it now? I don't know.]




</div></div>

I have an issue with any skill rating scheme which relies entirely on offensive achievement. Unfortunately, we can't see too many safety duels on TV because most of them are edited out.

I have developed (or subconsciously stolen from someone else) a few versions of playing Ghost Ball that permits safety play.

In one version, play Ghost Ball as usual except allow safeties to be played wherein, if a hook is achieved, the shooter get BIH in hand again and continues the run.

If a hook is not achieved, it is loss of rack.

As for how instructors assess student skills, I can only speak for myself but I think that in general, mechanical flaws become quickly apparent.

Certainly, knowledge can offset mechanical deficiencies but before long unsound mechanics lead to letting the dog out and knowledge does little good when you are sitting in your chair.

Conversely, the player who acquires a highly repeatable stroke and who does not ruin the stroke with poor body alignment is going to emerge as the superior player...all other things being equal.

Regards,
Jim

wolfdancer
09-02-2008, 12:48 PM
I'd disagree only with this part of your statement:
"the chance that any two players will shoot the same arrangements of balls during an assessment of skill using the number of balls run after the break is vanishingly small."
At the pro level,the players would frequently play similar patterns, imo....Often the announcer will tip off the next few shots in advance to the TV audience. To a lesser degree, very highly skilled amateur players, might also tend to play similar patterns.
My thinking is that at the amateur level,because of the less precise precision play, the patterns will have to be adjusted, and that may account for the widely differing play.
As to your idea about instructors being able to have the tools to better rate their students, good idea and maybe....the PAT, or player ability test will allow them to do so, if the concept catches on
I have the three PAT booklets that describe the tests, and allow one to keep score
Beginners to intermediates
Intermediates
Second league to world class players
As a "student of the game" yourself ( Robert Byrne signed his books that way) you might want to pick copies for yourself.
My own rating...highly classified....soon as the late fall/winter arrives...I'm going to work on these skills....right now the beginners looks tough to me

Bambu
09-02-2008, 12:50 PM
I really like that idea, skin. I havent heard of anything like that, but it sounds good. Using the law of averages works pretty well with q-skill, but having set levels of rack difficulty might prove better. But what particular rack seems tough for one guy, might not seem so bad to another(even if they are equally skilled). For that reason, it would be tough coming up with 100 consecutively difficult layouts. I still like the idea though, sounds like a mini-golf format.

JoeW
09-02-2008, 01:27 PM
I can appreciate that there are many issues in developing a skill classification. To some extent it would depend on the intended use of the classifications. If one simply wants to define and differentiate between levels leading up to professional pool player the task is not all that difficult. From what we know in the construction of classification systems there are a few guidelines that have been established.

The classifications should be mutually exclusive.

The definitions should be clear and understandable by any user of the system.

Terms used should be applicable to any one who is or could be classified.

The system should have some particular use: Knowing a person’s classification should enable the user to predict some outcome.


Here is one example that needs work but it is a place to start.

Run A Rack of 9-Ball: Break and run from the opening position during competition. This skill level may / usually does this X times per week in the last few months.

A: Professional: Could play in professional tournaments and would often (3X per year) place in the top ten. Runs 6+ racks about once per week.

B: Semi-Professional: Could play in state tournaments and often would place in the top ten positions. Runs 4-5 racks about once per week.

C: Average: General pool hall player, could play in local tournaments would not often place in the top ten. Runs 1-2 racks about once per week.

D: Casual Player, plays when the opportunity presents itself, does not often seek competitive play. Cannot run a rack of 9-Ball with any consistency.

While there are many problems with a classification like this it does present a place form which to begin. It specifies what is considered (ability to run a rack of 9-Ball), a time frame, and some expectation of the classified person’s ability. Finer gradations are possible (B+), and a common base is used (national, state and local tournament play). While not all tournaments are equal, this is a point for comparison.

It has been pointed out that ability to play safe is not inherent in the system. While this is true it should also be considered that there is probably a strong relationship (high correlation) between the ability to run a rack of 9-Ball, play safe, play 8-Ball, One pocket, and 14.1. The correlations are not perfect and of course the classifications are not intended to differentiate between professionals (that would be another process such as the currently used rankings of pros based on money won).

This system is of use for pool players who may meet someone and ask them, "How well do you play?" The handicap in golf is a good example. It is not perfect but it gets the user in the ball park.

In the classifications defined above one only needs to ask, “How many racks of competitive 9-Ball can you string together in any given month?” Whether they answer is another matter. However, one can also observe the player or use the observations of others and then classify. One of the goals of a good classification system is that it is easy to use and can be based on valid, reliable, and easily observed data.

BTW I can easily identify myself as a "C" Player and that is a fairly accurate classification. I have better and worse weeks but like it or not that is where I fall. I bet you can classify yourself very quickly too. And that is one test of a reasonable classification.

League players have their own classifications and their level of play could be placed inthe context of the current classifications

FastMikie
09-02-2008, 01:52 PM
Thank you, thank you, thank you!