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wolfdancer
09-07-2008, 06:56 PM
that the current mortgage crisis is due entirely to the ind. borrowers....then why is the Gov't being forced to bail out the lenders?
"The Bush administration's seizure of troubled mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is potentially a $200 billion bet that it will help reverse a prolonged housing and credit crisis."

".......the glut of vacant homes for sale, rising foreclosures, rising unemployment and weak consumer confidence."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/mortgage_giants_crisis

Not to worry though...the two keen new age economists, Palin and Mcsame, have the solution to this latest burden on the U.S. Taxpayer...the trickle down theory.
With the same progressive ideas that she employed As Mayor of a Township of less then 10k, she will apply those principles to...well, wait...she borrowed them into a huge debt.
McCain can't balance his checkbook....
We won't lose our country in battle...we'll lose it as collateral on a bad debt that we can't repay

我们不能使每月付款,任何的机会,我们可以再融资?
Translated...we can't make the monthly payments, so solly

pooltchr
09-07-2008, 07:12 PM
Just so you get the facts straight, I never said the crisis was due entirely to the individual borrowers. But I don't believe the borrowers were the victims of some great scheme by the mortgage companies either. The individual borrowers were stupid to enter into contracts they would not be able to honor. The lenders were stupid for giving loans to people who they should have known were not good risks.
Dumb and Dumber!!!
And now, the taxpayers will end up paying for all that stupidity!

Steve

Sid_Vicious
09-07-2008, 08:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But I don't believe the borrowers were the victims of some great scheme by the mortgage companies either. The individual borrowers were stupid to enter into contracts they would not be able to honor.

Steve </div></div>

Steve...I dated a top CPA, she billed out many years back at $400 an hour. She did government audits on corporations from time to time, and this Christian lady's answer for the gov't audits was to keep deceptive finances from companies just like FM in check. This timeframe was during the Clinton admin.

Your rebuplican led leaders allowed the stupid borrowers to over borrow. Gov't auditors would have instantly, or close to instantly, seen this coming and stopped it long ago. Bush-economics sucks!, criminal, and anti-American economics for anyone but their richy friends. It ain't hard to figure, your guy is an idiot. sid

wolfdancer
09-08-2008, 02:42 AM
I think it takes "two to tango"...and the lenders are the "pros" in these transactions, and have the tools to make risk management decisions re: loans. There used to be a standard cap of of 30% of your gross income( I believe the new guidelines are 35%) for a mortgage payment. With lo-doc and no-doc loans...how do you make sure the client is anywhere near that cap and can afford to repay?
I guess it was Ed that wanted to put all the blame on the home buyer, while I believe the lenders bear the bulk of the responsibility.
And maybe they were reckless because they knew that if the thing did blow up in their face, the Gov't would bail them out.
Well, yes, it is the taxpayers that will pay...but it ain't like the money is going for free lunches for school kids, or medicare, it's going for a good cause...to bail out the companies that you didn't want to have regulated by the gov't, in the first place.....
Aren't you always pleading the case for laissez faire?

pooltchr
09-08-2008, 04:21 AM
Our government has a long history (regardless of which party happened to be in charge) of bailing out large companies that get in financial trouble. The arguement has always been that it was to help the economy. The trouble is that once someone finds out that the government has their back, they are free to act in a reckless manner. (Corporations and individuals)

How badly would the economy have been hurt if we had allowed Chrysler to deal with their own mess? Probably not as much as we are facing today. How about the airlines? If one or two of them failed, someone else would cover the void. The business that is profitable (I know, that's a bad word in some circles) are the ones that survive. If the government would let the free market work on it's own, rather than interfering, there are still going to be problems, but problems that the market will correct. Beats the heck out of taxpayers bailing everyone out.

How badly did the economy dip when Eastern Air Lines went under?

Fannie and Freddy were bad ideas from the beginning. What business did the government have getting into the lending business? NONE! And look at the wonderful job they did.

No, I do not like the government getting overly involved in business. They need to regulate those areas that have to do with public welfare, like health regulations for restaurants, and handling hazardous waste, but they shouldn't have to protect people from their own stupidity. (Borrowers or Lenders!)

Steve

Gayle in MD
09-08-2008, 08:32 AM
Excellent post, Wolf, and you are right about Steve. The fact is that many hedge funders, and mortgage concerns made a fortune on all this, and have gone up the road laughing with their pockets stuffed with money. Freddie and Fannie were also making bundles, buying mortgages that they could get at a cheaper rate than any other "Bank" and pocketing the difference, arbitrage. When we get the numbers on their exhorbitant retirement packages, I just hope it all comes out before election time.

Here we have yet another example of phoney populism which is the general operating function of Republican administrations and they use their decietful methods from every angle. From Privatizing and Outsourcing our military and National Disaster clean up operations, to illegal torture programs, all allow the Republicans to fly under the radar, with no accountability. Our tax dollars are then mysteriously lost, debts rise while its a free for all for the no-bid contractors, aka Republican cronies, to continue to bilk us either out of our tax dollars, or increase the debts we face. Sneaky legislation like the Enron Bill, a no energey, energy policy, formed while hidden behind closed doors. Reagans Amnesty, which promoted a now over twelve million additional population of illegal aliens, along with their anchor babies, contributing to our health cost crises, as we pay the health care for all those illegals who certainly got his message, come on over, we're happy to provide cheap labor for our corporate cronies,

Many of the efforts too supply weapons, like those that Reagan sold to Iran, our enemy, and other South African despots, many that the average American still is unaware of, the Contras, radical terrorist elements in the Middle East, so much more of that went on than most people are aware of, and it continues to this day as Bush has had to put those who slaughtered our troops, on payment, to stop. An effort to clean up his disaster long enough to get past this next electionn and skip out of town. A virtual foreign welfare program for former radical Iraqi insurgents,and al Qaeda members, who will surely go right back to it when the time is right, again, using weapons given to them by a Republican Adminisrtaion, to kill Americans. Not really evidence of "The Surge" working, but of an escalation of boots on the ground in an effort which was wrong headed from the start, and spread al Qaeda into Iraq, a place where they never existed before.

The Republicans love of deregulation, hatred for Unions which protect the American worker's rights, their call to amnesty, support of rogue nations and radical groups who were given weapons that they eventually use to kill Americans, Enron style protection for CEO thieves, just like George Bush, to aid them as they bilk hard working Americans out of their retirements.

This is a good time for voters to look for back copies of What's The Matter With Kansas?: How Conservatists Won The Heart Of America, by Thomas Frank, which gives us a great history of how the Republican Party cons religious values centered voters, gets them to vote against their own best financial interests, and uses them as pawns in their efforts to create a class structured fascist leaning, oligarchy. And also find copies of One Market Under God and his new book, The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Rule

While Democratics are not perfect by any means, they are a huge improvment over Republicans. Americans who want to preserve a government Of The People, For The People and By The People, are now called socialist, as Democratics try to deal with the many messes Republicans make, with some kind of responaibility, honor and empathy, for all those both here and abroad, who have been the victims of Republican anti-american policies.

We saw last week how very easy it is to distract Republican voters, away from the urgent national issues and crises Republicans have created, which we MUST deal with, as they seek to disown the very programs and decisions which have led our nation into multiple crises. How very quickly some of the less knowlegable posters on this site jumped to embrace the most radical and ill prepared, deceitful and plastic, inexperienced and dangerous Republican operative to hit the national scene to date, and put her in a position a heart beat away from the Presidency.

If the Republican Party manages to pull off yet another con on American voters, and McSame gets in there, we can kiss the Amereican we knew and loved good-bye, and perhaps the entire world.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
09-08-2008, 11:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that the current mortgage crisis is due entirely to the ind. borrowers....then why is the Gov't being forced to bail out the lenders?</div></div>Please point us to the posts in which we stated the mortgage crisis is due entirely to the borrowers.

eg8r

eg8r
09-08-2008, 11:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess it was Ed that wanted to put all the blame on the home buyer, </div></div>What's up lap dog. I am fresh off a wonderful vacation and ready to get back in and participate on the board again. I was just wondering if you were going to point us to the post where this was stated, or if you were going to continue to post your "guesses."

eg8r

wolfdancer
09-08-2008, 01:44 PM
this *&%$# search feature must have been designed by some Republican....you can't find anything...
But, take my word for it...read my lips....one or both of you claimed that the mortgage crisis was primarily caused by the borrowers..
"Are we clear...?"

Gayle in MD
09-08-2008, 02:11 PM
Yes they did, and I recall that distinctly. Most all of the righties on here did so.

Selective memories.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
09-08-2008, 02:14 PM
I did.

eg8r
09-08-2008, 04:20 PM
Show me the post. Otherwise this is just more of your BS revisionist moments that is as low as Q's conspiracies.

eg8r

eg8r
09-08-2008, 04:20 PM
Show us the post. I am not saying it did not happen, accidents are made all the time, I just want to make sure we are all reading the same thing.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
09-08-2008, 04:23 PM
Go find it yourself. I distinctly recall it, and so does Wolfdancer. That's good enough for me. You'd just try to twist your meaning into something that we would know you weren't saying, anyway, just like you always do. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

eg8r
09-08-2008, 04:25 PM
LOL. Don't give me any of your distinct memories. We have proven your comprehension has a lot to be desired, there is no way your revisionist version is going to be any better. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

Gayle in MD
09-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Stuff it.

eg8r
09-08-2008, 04:31 PM
lol.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
09-08-2008, 04:58 PM
The ill-truth is that writing the paper on those loans, selling them to other lenders over time, then eventually the lending debtor became basically invisable, yet each loan group made money all the way down the line. Same thing with these 0% interest CC and "Easy Credit Card, No Credit Checks." Fact is they actually targeted the groups who they statistically knew would simply pay the minimus and eventually run a debt and default in time. You can call the college student dumb for falling into the CC, or the minority Hispanic who got a Fannie may house dumb, but it was the lax enforcement on Uncle Sam's auditing which ALLOWED this cesspool of results.

It is really all F'd up when you think about it. The paper moves from lender to lenders buying the paper, and so on, money continues to get made yet nobody really suffers the full impact of foreclosure within those holding the paper. Well, we the taxpayers do I guess. Federal auditors not catching this along the way is the real culprit, heads should be rolling and sh!t should be rolling up "The Hill" for the real responsible level of gov't. My take is that political sway "allowed" blinders put on so-as to not make the administration apparent to fostering a bad financial situation and an honestly bad economic picture in real time. Bush, Bush, Bush!

Georgie boy eventually having all of his financial advisors to resign way back then after election has seemingly become evident of it's purpose..."The chickens do come home to roost though!" sid

Gayle in MD
09-08-2008, 05:08 PM
Excellent summation, Martin. You are right on, friend. The rich crooks are gone with their pockets stuffed, laughing all the way to the Carribbean, or Switzerland. The cone headed hedge funders in their air conditioned penthouses, sitting in front of a computer all day, trying to figure out their next exploitative burglary of the money of hard working Americans, so starved for a slice of the American dream, they're easy pickin's for just about any fascist pig that comes down the pike.

Same thing that Bush/Cheney, Halliburton, Blackmwater, and their other cornies have done to our troops, and the American citizens who are in debt for this multi trillions dollar war for oil deal with the new despot leader of Iraq.

When the contracts are signed, maybe our troops can get out. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Qtec
09-08-2008, 05:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The lenders were stupid for giving loans to people who they should have known were not good risks. </div></div>

ie, if the banks had properly vetted the lenders there would be no housing crisis.

Spitzer and others warned of the coming crisis and the Govt went to court to stop them from doing anything about it.

Read it!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Predatory Lenders' Partner in Crime
How the Bush Administration Stopped the States From Stepping In to Help Consumers

By Eliot Spitzer
Thursday, February 14, 2008; A25

Several years ago, state attorneys general and others involved in consumer protection began to notice a marked increase in a range of predatory lending practices by mortgage lenders. Some were misrepresenting the terms of loans, making loans without regard to consumers' ability to repay, making loans with deceptive "teaser" rates that later ballooned astronomically, packing loans with undisclosed charges and fees, or even paying illegal kickbacks. These and other practices, we noticed, were having a devastating effect on home buyers. <u>In addition, the widespread nature of these practices, if left unchecked, threatened our financial markets.</u>

Even though predatory lending was becoming a national problem, the Bush administration looked the other way and did nothing to protect American homeowners. In fact, the government chose instead to align itself with the banks that were victimizing consumers.

Predatory lending was widely understood to present a looming national crisis. This threat was so clear that as New York attorney general, I joined with colleagues in the other 49 states in attempting to fill the void left by the federal government. Individually, and together, state attorneys general of both parties brought litigation or entered into settlements with many subprime lenders that were engaged in predatory lending practices. Several state legislatures, including New York's, enacted laws aimed at curbing such practices.

What did the Bush administration do in response? Did it reverse course and decide to take action to halt this burgeoning scourge? As Americans are now painfully aware, with hundreds of thousands of homeowners facing foreclosure and our markets reeling, the answer is a resounding no.

Not only did the Bush administration do nothing to protect consumers, it embarked on an aggressive and unprecedented campaign to prevent states from protecting their residents from the very problems to which the federal government was turning a blind eye.

Let me explain: The administration accomplished this feat through an obscure federal agency called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). The OCC has been in existence since the Civil War. Its mission is to ensure the fiscal soundness of national banks. For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.

But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation.

Throughout our battles with the OCC and the banks, the mantra of the banks and their defenders was that efforts to curb predatory lending would deny access to credit to the very consumers the states were trying to protect. But the curbs we sought on predatory and unfair lending would have in no way jeopardized access to the legitimate credit market for appropriately priced loans. Instead, they would have stopped the scourge of predatory lending practices that have resulted in countless thousands of consumers losing their homes and put our economy in a precarious position.

When history tells the story of the subprime lending crisis and recounts its devastating effects on the lives of so many innocent homeowners, the Bush administration will not be judged favorably. The tale is still unfolding, but when the dust settles, <u>it will be judged as a willing accomplice to the lenders who went to any lengths in their quest for profits. So willing, in fact, that it used the power of the federal government in an unprecedented assault on state legislatures, as well as on state attorneys general and anyone else on the side of consumers.</u>

The writer is governor of New York. </div></div>

Everyone down the line made money out of this scam except the people who lost their houses and the tax poayer who will foot the trillion $ bill.

Q

Qtec
09-08-2008, 05:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Ed and Steve were correct </div></div>







........no chance.

Q /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

wolfdancer
09-08-2008, 05:55 PM
Ed, it's been so peaceful here...why not take another week 's vacation?...Better yet, why not take your talents over to AZB...I'll help you transfer all your posts....
I hope that you enjoyed your vacation, but I see that it did diddly for your disposition. Same old "internet rage" Ed, but now armed with the amateurish insults of his brother in arms, lww.

wolfdancer
09-08-2008, 06:10 PM
didn't everybody make money during the Bush regime, from Haliburton, Balckwater, on down...except the avg citizen, who has to now foot the bill. you have to wonder how many IOU's Bush has in his pocket; he'll be collecting on them in the form of honorariums for years to come
For the last 7 years this admin has had a license to steal.
If you compared this to managing a Corporation....the stockholders would have demanded a few years back, that the board be removed, and that the SEC investigate them for fraud.
Now the right wants another 4 years to begin cleaning up the mess, that they created....but I don't think we can afford them.

Gayle in MD
09-08-2008, 09:19 PM
The right NEVER cleans up their messes. McInsane would no doubt be Bush on Crack, right along with his Moose Killing, radical, fundamentalist right wing nut. More earmarks per capita than any other Governor or Mayor.

This is the biggest farce since Reagan, the guy who started much of what is wrong with this country right now.

Note, how none of the righties want to address Reagan's Amnesty, Reagan Administration insiders helping Brady's wife push through the first major anti gun legislation in history. The spreading of weaponry all over the Middle East, and selling weapons to our enemies, Iran, of all countries, the deregulation of many industries and financial institutions.

I could go on, but the point is they tread water in their own little pond of denial, and never even begin to open their eyes, as they vote against their own best interests. Even after eight years of obvious failure and incompetence, and corruption, their ready to follow McInsane right over the edge of the pseudo Conservative Cliff! The more obvious the results of their misguided votes become, the more vicious they are toward those of us who knew what we were talking about years ago.

"Nothing could be worse for this country right now than two oil men in the White House!"

Gayle in Maryland
1999

pooltchr
09-09-2008, 04:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">his Moose Killing, radical, fundamentalist right wing nut.
</div></div>

I'm beginning to think the only reason you post your nonsense on here is to have another opportunity to call someone you hate a new and different derogatory name. When are you going to grow up and act like an adult?

Steve

DickLeonard
09-09-2008, 08:39 AM
Gayle throw Pooltchr in there also.####

DickLeonard
09-09-2008, 08:49 AM
GAyle you don't think the Oil Trail will lead to Palin? I wondered why McCain would pick her but that reason makes more sense than anything I can think.####

Gayle in MD
09-09-2008, 09:18 AM
Dick,
This is a case of history repeating itself. Four more years of oil influence in the White House, and two people in bed with oil interests and high powered lobbyists.

I used to think that Bush was the manchurian candidate, but have now decided that it was inadvertant.

McCain OTOH, could well be the one. The world, "Trigger" fits both McCain and his VP. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Gayle in MD
09-09-2008, 09:19 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

wolfdancer
09-09-2008, 01:55 PM
I'll stand by what I posted....It's what I believe to be true.
I'm not sure the basis of your revisionist label...Q usually just posts from a media source, and adds some commentary; and I normally just add my own thoughts. Maybe you can back up your own statement, by citing some posts????????????
It's true that most, if not all of the media reports that are posted by the other side go against your own admiration and unquestioning loyalty for Bush/Cheney. Denial is easier then accepting the fact that they have harmed America, irreparably. imo

Chopstick
09-09-2008, 02:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">his Moose Killing, radical, fundamentalist right wing nut.
</div></div>

I'm beginning to think the only reason you post your nonsense on here is to have another opportunity to call someone you hate a new and different derogatory name. When are you going to grow up and act like an adult?

Steve </div></div>

Well now that you mention it. If I was Hillary I wouldn't be wearing any brown pants suits for a while. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

wolfdancer
09-09-2008, 02:26 PM
Sid, I'm stuck holding WM (Washington Mutual) stock, down $.86 as I write this..
This stock sold for $45 about a years ago, now trading at $3.25
It's the nations largest thrift, and could fail. Fortunately I traded this stock twice as it was falling, caught a bounce and made enough to cover my present losses
They just replaced their CEO, Kerry Killinger and entered into an agreement with Gov't regulators.
" Killinger transformed Seattle-based WaMu into a national giant in mortgage lending and consumer banking via a string of mergers in the 1990s. But he also made some costly mistakes with the company's mortgage-hedging operation that undercut profits during a mortgage boom. He pursued an aggressive retail expansion marred by poor locations in too many markets.

Then he steered WaMu into subprime mortgages, only to discover too late that it was lending to many unqualified borrowers. Sinking home values in California and other WaMu markets dealt a heavy blow. " (smartmoney.com)
One bad loan, a hundred,a thousand, etc, you could blame on the borrower, as had been posted here....but with all these financial institutions in danger....maybe you have to point the finger elsewhere?
76 banks have already failed and the number of failures could reach 200
fail safe (http://creditdebtlife.com/670/200-banks-to-fail-and-go-out-of-business-in-us)

wolfdancer
09-09-2008, 02:41 PM
Way I remember the post, the real blame was laid on the borrower.
The "scheme" if any, was not directed at the borrower...they just became the victims. It was reminiscent of Michael Milken's junk bond scheme, where he took advantage of the Bank's "greed".
This time, if you weren't making mortgage loans in a real estate booming market, you weren't making money,( short term ). as the banks got even greedier for these closing fees, they kept lowering the standards for loan qualification...eventually you could bring in a note from your mother to qualify, even if your main source of income was washing car windows at the freeway off ramp.

pooltchr
09-09-2008, 06:47 PM
Wolf,
Exactly! It was major stupidity on the part of both the borrowers and lenders. If someone is stupid enough to loan money to someone they suspect might not be able to repay it, it won't happen unless they think someone else (taxpayers) will cover their loss.

And if someone is stupid enough to borrow money without a clue how much it's going to cost each month to pay it back, or where they will get enough to do so, well, they deserve to lose as well.

Why is it that when people don't use their brains, it's always up to you and me and the rest of the taxpayers to bail them out? Whatever happened to there being consequences for committing stupid acts?

Steve

Gayle in MD
09-09-2008, 11:28 PM
You're nobody's fool, Dick. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Gayle in MD
09-09-2008, 11:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever happened to there being consequences for committing stupid acts?
</div></div>

I've been asking myself that question since the 04 election.

eg8r
09-10-2008, 08:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll stand by what I posted....It's what I believe to be true.</div></div>Nobody cares what you believe. You stand behind a lie which you cannot prove. Gayle picked a perfect lap dog. The revisionist label was for you. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I guess everything just has to be spelled out for the lap dog.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 09:21 AM
He doesn't have to prove it, because we don't care about what you think. We recall it. You said it.

Neither Wolfdancer or I intentionally post lies on this forum. You have the franchise on that, which you share with Poolteacher, BobbyRX, and Chop.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gifzzzzzzzzz

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 09:33 AM
Exactly. Is the word predatory a synonym for inadvertant? I don't think so.

This is par for the course when Republicans run things. The Middle Class are merely pawns, exploited through a whole range of corporate friendly policies, which rob the Middle Class, bring on recessions, and then apply policies to protect the corporate fascists. Hence, The regulator for Fannie and Freddie wants to keep the present incompetents in their positions. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Stop gag Republican policies, but always applied when the ship is already going down the drink! They steal for as long as they can get away with it from the M.C., but trickle down doesn't for work, never has, never will. The recessions they always leave behind, along with their promised tax cuts having to be recinded to keep the country afloat due to the loss of buying power of the middle class, always lead to the same numbers, rich richer, M.C. and poor, worse off.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Their ability to unabashedly lie, and distort the failures we've all seen, the monumental disasters of their own making into how a man who voted for all of it represents change, is typical of the lying, deceiful despots that they are.

eg8r
09-10-2008, 10:04 AM
You don't recall crap. You imagine everything in that fairy land you live in.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 10:05 AM
Pointless.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gifzzzzzzzzzzzz

wolfdancer
09-10-2008, 10:38 AM
"I guess everything has to be spelled out for the lap dog"

let me spell this out for you:
g-o-f-u-c-k-y-o-u-r-s-e-l-f,
and your smug, superior,screw everybody else, I got mine, attitude.
I doubt if the founding fathers had your type of elitism rule in mind when the wrote the constitution....back then you would have been a Tory, a kiss a*s supporter of King George...in fact that's exactly what you are today, King George's lapdog....
While you can safely support the war from the comfort of your home, and make a nice living working in the war industry, you have never, to my knowledge expressed any concern over the number of American soldiers killed or horribly maimed....just "casualties of war", or cannon fodder to you, eh???
And then there are also the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed, many of them women, children, babies ...but "down with the infidels ", right??
You are a chicken (sh*t) hawk, because while Bush goes against his own General's advice, you believe God has directed him to lead this tenth crusade, and reclaim the Holy Land.
http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/images/knight-templar.jpg
In truth it wasn't God that told Bush he was the next Godfrey of Bouillon,or Duke of Lorraine, or Tancred,....it was just a cocaine flashback.
He'll go down as the worst President in history, and when the curtain does down for you, I believe that you'll end up..."down" with him. If final judgment is based on violating any of the ten
commandments. Don't forget that in your blind support of this ****, you are as guilty as he is of breaking the fifth commandment

wolfdancer
09-10-2008, 10:49 AM
talk about living in a dream world......"heal thyself first"

wolfdancer
09-10-2008, 10:58 AM
ed has outdid lww, as they both strive for the ultimate nadir posting title.
I'm sure they exchange pm's and trade "zingers"
Ed's living proof that one can be smart, and be a f**king idiot at the same time.
Since the elitist,chicken hawk began the name calling....I guess two can play....
I wonder if he brags to his colleagues at work, how he put "Granny"
down with his juvie slurs ???

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 11:16 AM
Whoopie!

Damn, that was good!

Funny, there are several of these war hawks on here who have benefitted from the war, and the bilking of the middle class! Some even benefitting from the whole sale thievery of the Oil Industry. No wonder they don't want change, they are a part of the money program for franchising terrorism all over the world. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif The Iraq War, and wish to invest in our dependence on oil, in and of itself the source of terrorist financing.

Obama is right. Oil is the enemy of our future. A new Industrial Revolution which resotres our manufacturing industry and protect our environment is logical. Not Drill baby Drill. Cheap oil is what got us into this mess.

Democratics are also right that unless we include these illegals into our economy, their cheap labor will continue to burry much of our Middle Class, blue collar, workers.

Not to mention the increased risk of terrorists forming cells in this country, as if there aren't already enough of them, Bush's refusla to protect our borders, ports, infrastructure, shipping containers, he has left us wide open for the coming attack.

If it happens just before, or just after this election, And I get blown away, please repost this post for me, OK?

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 11:20 AM
As long as I have the pleasure of being called Grand-Ma MA by my precious little grand daughter, and still turn heads in my bikini, I will be laughing at his pointless posts. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Deeman3
09-10-2008, 12:59 PM
Hey, tell 'em Granny! I'd rather look at the well kept grandmas ouot there than the underfed excused they have for actresses and models these days. Hey, if your a grandma, at least someone wanted to mate with you at one time, right?

Hang in there. I might bash a woman every once in a while (verbally only) but love those Grannies....:)

By the way, I am hosting a Abused Women's Workshop here tomorrow. I gave them 20 beds and matresses a year ago and they are back to show me how to treat DeeWoman without the marks showing! JK, I hope you know I am. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif This year, I think they want the rest of the furnature!

eg8r
09-11-2008, 10:19 AM
Looks like the lap dog is a little pissy. Did gayle push you off?

eg8r

eg8r
09-11-2008, 10:20 AM
You got it lap dog. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

wolfdancer
09-11-2008, 10:28 AM
and screw you a'hole

Wally_in_Cincy
09-11-2008, 10:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did. </div></div>

I did too. And I stand by it.

eg8r
09-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Nippy little ankle biter aren't you. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

wolfdancer
09-11-2008, 11:04 AM
no, you piss me off....you remind me that there are people that would take away one's freedom, under the guise of protecting that freedom. Ever wonder why you can trace back the original arming, and training of these terrorist nations to our own gov't? We're getting closer to this new world order, and when the chips are about to be implanted, you'll be first in line
I have little contact with Gayle, a few pm's, an occasional email, and usually that is me forwarding some more propaganda that my ultra right wing cousin, or equally right wing brother, has sent me to prove their love for the country which translates into love and total belief in/for Bush.
As with most of the Bush faithful, they are a day late and a dollar short....I've already checked their fantasy out, and it has been proven wrong. i don't know how many times I have to send them the Snopes URL before they catch on...but that is the problem when you just blindly accept the party line
We should be securing our own borders, but we ain't got the $$ for that...it's all earmarked fro Haliburton, and Bush's palace guard, Blackwater

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 01:35 PM
And you are as wrong now as you were then. This mortgage crises could never have happened without the Republican de-regulation frenzy that has gone on in this country since Reagan, providing for no regulation of the banking industry, Frannie and Freddie, and the insane creative financing which resulted. Throw in Wall sTreet hedge funders, and Bush economic failures all around, and you've got yourself a deepening recession like nothing we have seen since the great depression.



This is a confluence of Republlican unsound policies, from borrwoing to spending to de-regulation, to a pseudo free market mantra which is used to cover up all corruption and exploitation.

Cultural anger is marshaled to achieve hidden economic ends by Republicans. Those ends were on behalf of the richest among us, who are doing fine right now, as the rest of this country is going down the tubes.

Republicans have been running the largest part of government for the longest amount of time. SOME of us can see where it's gotten us.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> McCain's Fannie and Freddie Connections John McCain railed against Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac on the campaign trail today, saying that the CEOs that led the lenders to ruin "deserve nothing" and should have to pay back their severance packages. In an Wall Street Journal op-ed co-bylined by his vice presidential pick, Sarah Palin, McCain suggested bold reforms for Fannie and Freddie that would "terminate future lobbying, which was one of the primary contributors to this great debacle."

If that's the case, McCain should look first to his campaign staffers as the cause of that debacle. One of them was Fannie Mae's head of lobbying, and spread tens of millions of dollars around Washington in the form of lobbying contracts. A number of McCain staffers were on the receiving end of those contracts, collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars each from the lenders to rep their interests. And McCain's campaign manager served as president of a lobbying association that fought to protect Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae from the sort of regulation that McCain is now proposing.

</div></div>

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 01:38 PM
You're a waste of time, Ed. You and Steve aim ONLY to irritate people. Neither of you read enough.

eg8r
09-11-2008, 02:23 PM
LOL, maybe we should be reading your biased left wing BS. Nah, I prefer to think myself than be spoon fed like you are.

You need to be nice to your lap dog he was getting a bit antsy today.

eg8r

pooltchr
09-11-2008, 07:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're a waste of time, Ed. You and Steve aim ONLY to irritate people. Neither of you read enough. </div></div>

If thinking for myself and having an opinion developed on my own, rather than taking the Huffington Post as the gospel, and then regurgitating it on here is irritating, then you either have to live with it, or don't read it...and I really don't care which you choose.

I can have intelligent discussions and disagreements with others who lean to the left, and everyone keeps it civil. Maybe it's you who goes out of their way to pi$$ off people. Your elitist, holier than thou, everyone but me is an idiot attitude just makes you look petty.

Go ahead...put me on ignore....PLEASE!!!!

Steve

sack316
09-11-2008, 11:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you are as wrong now as you were then. This mortgage crises could never have happened without the Republican de-regulation frenzy that has gone on in this country since Reagan</div></div>

And FYI, "since Reagan" would include Mr. Clinton as well, would it not? Didn't Bill and his peeps go along with the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999? Which in effect was the most sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history? Also un-doing the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which was a main part of Roosevelts New Deal? Just a thought there

Sack

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 07:02 AM
A simple comparison of the state of this country when Clinton left office, compared to now, blows away every point you tried to make. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 07:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When a woman spreads her legs, she loses her defense...
Steve
</div></div>
You won the petty award of all times, bubba.

sack316
09-15-2008, 09:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A simple comparison of the state of this country when Clinton left office, compared to now, blows away every point you tried to make. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

Dear sweet Gayle, we've been over this before. And if it'll bring a smile to your face I'll glady say Clinton was a much better president than Bush.

But the point that I tired, and did, make was that Clinton is not completely exempt from the points you made earlier laying all blame on republicans. Unless, of course, you believe cause and effect are one entity comprising the exact same time interval. You are the one who pointed to a "deregulation frenzy" as a cause for this mortgage meltdown. Unless we can go back in time and make Clinton veto that bill in 1999 instead of signing it into law, then he was a part of this as well. Saying compare now to then doesn't change that.

Sack

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 10:04 AM
The de-regulation of the oil industry, and the banking industry, came from Republicans, period. The no bid contractors in this war, came from Bush/Cheney. The pre-emptive war policy, Bush/Cheney. Iraq, the massive debt, the taxcuts for billionaires, all Republican policies. The push for drill baby drill, Republicans, stupid REpublicans at that.

We need to make big changes. Drill baby drill is not a change, it's going backwards!

People were writing books about this The coming Mortgage Crises in late 1999. Greenspan was the FEd. He was also a Republican. He did nothing to prevent it.

Clinton's early involvment in policies that were new policies, like NAFTA, for example, couldn't predict how they would go over time. The Republicans have had the power since. They failed to respond when unpredictable and unintended consequences began to surface, hence, China is still cheating us on the global market, daily, dear, sweet Sack.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

eg8r
09-15-2008, 10:06 AM
LOL, gayle tried to blame Reagan and sack blew her out of the water. Remember gayle's revisionist history is constantly moving. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

sack316
09-15-2008, 10:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
People were writing books about this The coming Mortgage Crises in late 1999. Greenspan was the FEd. He was also a Republican. He did nothing to prevent it.

</div></div>

And apparently Bill didn't read those either I guess? I'm not asking you to take away blame from republicans... not even asking you to change your view one little bit. But what you criticize one for, you can't give a free pass to another. And if Bill gets a free pass for "not knowing" what would come, then surely you can't use the same information to blame people from the two previous decades! In this regard, on this issue, which you mentioned in an earlier response, your boy Bill f'ed up. Is he the end all be all cause of the problem? Hell no, I'm not saying that at all. But I'm open enough to realize that this particular issue with deregulation came from people from both sides... mostly republicans yes... but not ALL republicans either. And one such player, that helped in this screwy situation we have due to deregulation, was the great one Mr. Clinton.

If you're gonna say Clinton was for a good plan and LATER came unintended consequences, then you can't blame Reagan and Bush Sr. for the same thing (on this ONE particular issue). If you're gonna go back and blame the whole republican timeline, then you must include Clinton in that as well... along with both sides of the aisle in '99 that pushed through FSMA of 1999. Either one you wanna say is fine with me, ya just can't have it both ways, though. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sack

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 10:51 AM
Look, Sack, I';ve already stated that Clinton was wrong for signing onto the REagan/Bush plans for NAFTA. I've stated that a number of times in other posts.

Clinton didn't do everything right, he just most asssuredly didn't no anywhere near the number of things wrong that the Republicans did. There were many other things that he could have gotten done, also, which couldn't happen because of the Repulbican witch hunt that starteed before he ever even got into the WHite House, and which wasted millions of dollars on NOTHING!

I look at the overall performances of both parties. I am strongly of the opinion that Clinton was a better president than REagan, Bush one, or Bush two. That's why I don't vote Republican.

Wasting my time,and yours, trying to color me a partisan, when I am an educated voters, who takes more time than you take to read and study the issues, and find the resullts of bad policies, is fine if that is how you choose to spend your time, but I am far more interested in finding the facts about what is happening NOW, and tracing these disasters back to where things began to go terribly wrong, than trying to prove to you that I am not a partisan voter. You and I have obviously dfferent values, hence we won't agree on any of it anyway. I'm not for torture, pre-emptive war against countries that are no threat, tax cuts for big oil, tax cuts for billionaires, borrowing money from communist countries to pay for tax cuts and un-necessary wars. Selling arms to rogue nations, jumping in bed with terrorist groups, or forcing democracy on other countries with bombs and gunsm and failing to support our trops with the equipment and after duty support they deserve. Are you going to try to blame all that on Bill Clinton. too?

Your posts are becomming as much a waste of time as Ed's. Nit pick all you want, we're in a mess, and REpublicans put us here!

sack316
09-15-2008, 11:10 AM
Well then forgive me dear. I somehow must have missed your posts criticizing democratic party failures. And the ones you posted that show any history of the left taking an action that wound up being a folly. And the ones that lay any blame whatsoever on anyone's doorstep besides a republican one.

If myself, and this board have somehow overlooked the fact that you are "not partisan" then I whole heartedly apologize for that. Your knack for finding truth, an unbiased and fair truth, is surely far superior to that of anyone else... hence the rest of us are surely just idiots posting drivel when all we must do is read your words and we would have a clear picture of the world as it truly is. I am also sorry that I must have less time to read and research as you do, and thus whatever I do learn must be of less quality due to the lack of quantity. Surely, my dear friend, this board is your world and the rest of us are just paying rent.

And on behalf of the rest of us who happen to have differing opinions, I apologize for our narrow minded views and lack of understanding. It is with great hopes that we all may one day become as wise, open minded, and non partisan as you.

Sack

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 11:39 AM
You're forgiven, just don't let it happen again! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

InTheZone
09-15-2008, 01:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're forgiven, just don't let it happen again! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif </div></div>

Just goes to show how naive and insular in thought you really are. Here you are forgiving him for clearly being facetious in his apology to you and you think he's sincere!!! Only you would see his response this way.

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 01:40 PM
No, only you would see mine that way, you jerk!.

InTheZone
09-15-2008, 01:45 PM
Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 01:58 PM
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Deeman3
09-15-2008, 02:06 PM
In my 3999th post I am gonna take a break. This is getting to be too much like AZ. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

wolfdancer
09-15-2008, 10:07 PM
Dee, I think I'm going to follow your lead, and take a leave of absence, myself.
I'm not sure exactly who, or which side started the "deterioration" process here, but it looks like it's getting worse by the day.
Even the pool side,has everybody with a pHd under attack...
It's beginning to look and smell like AZB...and maybe that's what a few here are trying for

sack316
09-15-2008, 10:21 PM
actually guys, I don't think I notice any real great difference over the last several months. The "deterioration" has been going on for quite a while... like since way back when CC had just left us I think. I mean really, just go randomly change the page number back for a while... I don't think it's going downhill from anything in recent forum history, I think maybe we're just getting tired of the same old stuff over and over again. Like a song you get interested in eventually being played out. I can't complain, though... I'm as big a part of it as anyone else. I know I'm guilty of getting caught up in personal games of cat and mouse on here during a debate... which can be fun for me but I'm sure can be annoying to others. Like I'll read a thread where two others are perhaps going at it, and I just skip over it and move on thinking that was stupid. I'm sure I can go back into plenty I've been active in and find myself guilty of the same thing. I try not to... guess it just happens.

I'll take my break at 3999 too. Or change my SN.

Sack