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wolfdancer
09-09-2008, 03:43 PM
Bob Woodward says that Bush was interested in getting enemy body counts (how else you going to keep score?)
Well, as a favor to the Bush faithful here, I am providing a link to the official Bush body count list:
body count (http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Conspiracy/bush.htm)
Bob also claims top Generals advised Bush against the surge ...but that's another thread:
Bush's card game strategy for the war:
"In one scene in the Oval Office in January 2007, Bush tells his new commander in Iraq that the surge is his attempt to "double down." According to Woodward, Petraeus replies, "Mr. President, this is not double down. This is all in."

Gayle in MD
09-09-2008, 11:49 PM
Did you read the part where he tells the story about how Bush didn't even show up for meetings with the Chiefs of Staff? Woodward painted a Picture of a man still in denial, living in a disconnect from the war.

nAz
09-10-2008, 12:15 AM
why do you two hate America?

wolfdancer
09-10-2008, 09:33 AM
And to further show my hatred, I probably won't be voting for McCain despite his military record, against Obama that has none. Last guy I voted for on the basis of his wartime military record, against the other guy that had some questionable National Guard experience, they swifter dusted him.

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 09:34 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif How's it going sweetie?

bsmutz
09-10-2008, 10:53 AM
As I have stated here before, I'm apolitical. However, I am personally of the opinion that someone who has been through the mental torture that McCain has gone through would not be my first pick to make life or death decisions or to lead a country in a positive direction. Yes, we owe him a debt of gratitude and maybe a statue to comemmorate his sacrifice, but president? Isn't there anyone more/as capable who isn't apt to go off the deep end at any juncture?

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 11:36 AM
Yes, his name is Barack Obama. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

McCain WAS a hero. That was before he became a traitor to his own convictions in order to get into the White House, but he did manage to divert atention away from that fact in spite of having to put the entire country at risk, if he should win, and die in office.

Nothing is more hypocritical than he accusation that he would rather win the war and loose the election. You will never hear our military, or our former foreign policy experts, from both parties, refer to winning when discussing this war.

The statement in and of itself, provides a view into McCain's own Bush styled denial.

There is no war against terrorism in Iraq. It is an illegal occupation for hidden purposes. A war wthat was launched onl lies, which McCain has supported throughout.

Any man who HAS been tortured, and fails to stand against it on his principle, cannot be called a hero, IMO.

Any man who has subscribed to failing policies which have devastated this country, in order to get the party behind him, cannot be called a hero.

Anyone who insists that this occupation waas the correct decision, and has not failed its original mission statement, is living in denial.

Our country has a clear choice. More lies, denial and deceit. More division among the American people. More redistribution of our wealth upwards to those who need it least, more incompetence and slander, greater job loses, and dependency on oil, both foreign and domestic, or a promise of change from a man who stood from the start against everything that has deterriorated into the numerous disasters which we presently face.

About that movie? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

wolfdancer
09-10-2008, 11:45 AM
Bill, I believe McCain is an American hero, who managed to survive five years of imprisonment and torture, when a lessor man would have perished.
But those five years must have taken a toll, and like you, I believe it is cause for concern about electing him President.
He has already made statements about expanding the war.....

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 12:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He has already made statements about expanding the war.....
</div></div>

And staying for a hundred years, if necessary, in order to avoid admitting the policy was wrong, and has worked against our best interets.

A vote for McCain, a known war hawk, is a vote for the draft that will surely come if he is our next president.

We can only hope that the right wing voters understand and accept this when they vote for John McCain.

Deeman3
09-10-2008, 12:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A vote for McCain, a known war hawk, is a vote for the draft that will surely come if he is our next president.

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">You know, a draft may not be a bad thing. Many countries require service of their people and a draft, in most cases, assures at least a little more even distribution of the burden. Of course, if we called all those troops deployed to countries that we have been in for 60 years, like Germany, Japan, etc. we might not have as much strain on our service people.

</span>

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 12:37 PM
Commencing upon this foreign policy, and continuing it for over four years, with the number of redeployments we have seen in this occupatoin, is unforgivable, IMO.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course, if we called all those troops deployed to countries that we have been in for 60 years, like Germany, Japan, etc. we might not have as much strain on our service people.

</div></div>

So far McCain has not had a record of concern for what our troops are going through, nor what they are facing when they come back home, wounded, without a job, and without easily acessed medical care, financially suport and training for a future through education, any more so than he has supported their families. I hardly think he has credentials to prove otherwise.


His support of failed policies, and promise to continue them for a hundred years, if necessary, in order to win a militarily unwinnable war in a corrupt country, with a corrupt government, in the midst of a civil war, and as occupiers, does not hint of enlightenment to come.

His statement that we are winning in Iraq, is proof of his disconnect, when the Commander in charge has stated over and over again that what gains in reducing violence have been made, have been fragile, and are reversable.

since the war in Iraq, has emboldened our enemies, his statements do not indicate that he will provide any change from Bush's failed policies.

Deeman3
09-10-2008, 12:47 PM
Gayle,

Saying John McCain has not supported the troops and is not supported by the troops is a fantasy, much like Hillary's campaign. You can say, he voted against money for the troops or he attempted to do this and the other evil thing to them and it still is not correct. He may, in fact, not be far enough right for some of us but the more the left says things even they know are a fabrication, the more of the right wing conservatives flock to him. The more they tear at Palin (and in some cases rightfully so) the more those countless flyover voters see a little less luster on the Obama "HOPE" train.

Last night on CNN Democratic workers were saying they were getting a large puchback now fomr voters saying they just could not bring themselves to vote for a black man. Now, we all know this is wrong and you certainly won't see stuff like that down here in Alabama but all this stir, I admit form both sides, makes this a volitile race and that was the last thing Obama wanted. He had defeated Hillary and was on cruise control. McCain threw him a bomb and he, and his campaign, and even further left, if possible, forces are playing right into the Republicans hands. Who would have thought, a couple of weeks ago, that Obama would be slipping throughout the polls and even more surprising, slipping with women and younger voters.

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 01:18 PM
Obama is not slipping in all of the polls, first of all. Most where he has slipped slightly, show only a one digit gain for McCain. In some he hastn't slipped at all. This election will be determined by the debates, IMO, and I personally think those debates should not include a live audience.

John McCain voted against providing our soldiers increased financial support, and extending the educational support to their families. He also did not show up for the torture bill which he himself promoted.

McCain's relatively small rise in the polls may well be a political bubble, and I believe it will pop, just like the housing bubble.

There are many women who are put off by his VP chioce, as well. And he is not moving the Hillary voters, according to what I am reading in the Washington Post.

Once voters begin to look at the policies, they will understand that McCain's policies are the same as George Bush's, even worse for their pocketbooks, and since most of the middle Class is suffering right now through Republican/Bush/Reagan styled Voodoo-nomics, and look at what McCain is offering to the oil industry, and other policies, I believe the polls will turn against him.

Sara Palin is no where near as qualified to run this country in an emergency as Joe Biden. Seventy percent of the people polled say so.

With energy costs, food costs, this absurd war in Iraq, growing job losses, educational costs, and failures, and people losing their homes and savings, and John McCain in support of all the conditions which brought about these many disasters, I do not feel at all daunted by a little blip after his attempt to mask and divert the public from the issues, with an unqualified VP, with no foreing experience whatsoever, and a nasty, slanderous, dishonest profile.

Kerry did show up for Vietnam. Obama did try to help the communities in Chicago. mcCain's campaign is out there spreading lies and rumors about obama. I am expecting a backlash agasint Rovarian style poolitics, and a man who obviously wants to divide and distract this country from our circumstances and pressing issues.

That is what I hope for, and that is what I expect. I feel very emboldended in my support of obama, as I watch the same old Republican filthy politics, and by the memory of the last two presidential elections, and their filthy tactics in those, and we all know the painful results of Republican policies all too well.

I don't think a temporary drop fueld by curiosity, and lies, will hold up. I also don't think that when it comes down to voting any Hillary voters will vote for McCainm nor do I believe that these polls reflect obama's greatest supporters, those whose eyes aqre on their future the most, our young people, who surely don't want to be drafted in the future war of John McCain.

Gayle in MD.

Deeman3
09-10-2008, 01:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obama is not slipping in all of the polls, first of all. Most where he has slipped slightly, show only a one digit gain for McCain. In some he hastn't slipped at all. This election will be determined by the debates, IMO, and I personally think those debates should not include a live audience.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Well, from a 48-40 lead after his convention to a virtual tie now might be considered slip. I hope the debates are good. I don't care too much of they have an audience but would prefer as impartial a panel as possible, no Hannities, no Obermans and no men who have felt a strange feeling move up their leg in Barak's pressence. </span>

John McCain voted against providing our soldiers increased financial support, and extending the educational support to their families. He also did not show up for the torture bill which he himself promoted.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> He voted against this bill for good reasons, retention of troops. He has offer generous alternatives that would be better, IMO.He has made it clear he will not allow torture. </span>

McCain's relatively small rise in the polls may well be a political bubble, and I believe it will pop, just like the housing bubble. <span style="color: #FF0000">

You may be right. I just don't see Obama's voters beyojnd his base as committed as you do. </span>

There are many women who are put off by his VP chioce, as well. And he is not moving the Hillary voters, according to what I am reading in the Washington Post.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> I don't think the Hillary voters were who he was really after. He was after the 18-49 year old women and I think, doing well there. </span>

Once voters begin to look at the policies, they will understand that McCain's policies are the same as George Bush's, even worse for their pocketbooks, and since most of the middle Class is suffering right now through Republican/Bush/Reagan styled Voodoo-nomics, and look at what McCain is offering to the oil industry, and other policies, I believe the polls will turn against him.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again, you may be correct, but I think you give way too much credit to the average American Voter. If, for instance, people find out how much Obama's programs will really cost all of us, they would be shocked but, in all liklihood, they will vote their feelings and emotions. </span>

Sara Palin is no where near as qualified to run this country in an emergency as Joe Biden. Seventy percent of the people polled say so.

<span style="color: #FF0000">That will not be the defining issue and even the most optimistic voters know there are not that many real qualifications among the four of them. Biden is a lifer politician, much like McCain with lower voter appeal outside Washington. </span>

With energy costs, food costs, this absurd war in Iraq, growing job losses, educational costs, and failures, and people losing their homes and savings, and John McCain in support of all the conditions which brought about these many disasters, I do not feel at all daunted by a little blip after his attempt to mask and divert the public from the issues, with an unqualified VP, with no foreing experience whatsoever, and a nasty, slanderous, dishonest profile.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Then as you have said, this election is over. If I were Obama, I'd just sit back and wait for the voters to come to their senses. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</span>

Kerry did show up for Vietnam. <span style="color: #FF0000"> Correct, he ahs the home movies to prove it. </span> Obama did try to help the communities in Chicago. <span style="color: #FF0000"> Yes, he has the votes to prove it and I'm not just counting "present" votes. </span> mcCain's campaign is out there spreading lies and rumors about obama. <span style="color: #FF0000"> They are all doing this, to Obama, McCain and Palin. If anyone cared about Biden, they's be smashing him too. </span> I am expecting a backlash agasint Rovarian style poolitics, and a man who obviously wants to divide and distract this country from our circumstances and pressing issues. <span style="color: #FF0000">

May happen but I think I remember similar conversations in 2000 and 2004. I may be wrong. </span>


I don't think a temporary drop fueld by curiosity, and lies, will hold up. I also don't think that when it comes down to voting any Hillary voters will vote for McCainm nor do I believe that these polls reflect obama's greatest supporters, those whose eyes aqre on their future the most, our young people, who surely don't want to be drafted in the future war of John McCain.

Gayle in MD.

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Won't be long now. We should know by the end of the first two debates. </span>

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 01:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">May happen but I think I remember similar conversations in 2000 and 2004. I may be wrong.

</div></div>

I hope you also recall the results. Today, with the middle class struggling to keep their homes, provide food, shelter, clothing and an education and health care for their children,I do not see them as going into the booth and voting according to lies and rhetoric. I don't agree that obama is using the mear tactics of John McCain's campaign, nor did he do so in his convention speech. That sort of thing may turn on the right in this country, but liberals see it as a coverup for poor past perfomance, and a lack of character, hence, I don't think McCain's tactics will take away the liberal voters, Democratic voters, and they ae surely in the majority.

Bobbyrx
09-10-2008, 01:51 PM
poll (http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-07-poll_N.htm)


What's amazing is the poll of likely voters....

But it's the election of who gaffe's the biggest and there is plenty of time for both sides to say the wrong thing. Policy be damned...........

eg8r
09-11-2008, 08:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't there anyone more/as capable who isn't apt to go off the deep end at any juncture? </div></div>I am sure there are plenty who are more capable and much better for our country, but due to the sad state of affairs in DC the best candidate will never get a chance.

eg8r

eg8r
09-11-2008, 10:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bill, I believe McCain is an American hero, who managed to survive five years of imprisonment and torture, when a lessor man would have perished.
But those five years must have taken a toll, and like you, I believe it is cause for concern about electing him President.
He has already made statements about expanding the war.....
</div></div>The only thing that I think those 5 years show us about McCain is that he is not a quitter. I don't believe they should help send him to the White House though.

I personally feel his amnesty bill is what should keep him out of the White House.

eg8r