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Kerbouchard
09-10-2008, 11:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8
I do not know the gentleman in this video, but some of my best friends have sacrificed everything and this soldier speaks very eloquently about that sacrifice. When someone says they support the troops but not the war, to me, its the same thing as saying that what we have fought and sacrificed for was worthless and I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that.

If that one doesn't move you, try this one.
http://g.dwgsee.com/wake/index.htm

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 12:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By saying you support the troops but not the war is the same thing as saying that what we have fought and sacrificed for was worthless and I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that.
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That is a very inexact statement to make. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What is disrespectful of our troops is failure to verify and acknowledge the lies and incompetence that keep them in a hellhole, non stop, redeployed, over and over, for over four years.

Their suicide rates, divorce rates, spousal abuse rates, bankruptsey rates, murder rates, all going up. Putting American troops into a hell hole for five, six, even seven redeployments, and promising more to come, without providing them enough peace and respite to stay sane, is far from patriotic. Voting for a former POW, who denies their plight, and refuses to support their needs when they come home, is not supporting our troops.

Pushing for policies which refute efforts for diplomatic policies first, and deny the historical resulting gains through diplomacy, in preference to using war policies first, instead of subscribing to war as a last resort, is both hawkish, irresponsible. Ignoring the history of such occupations in foreign lands, and renaming an occupation as a war on terror, when noe terrorists existed on the land at the outset, is not supportive of our troops. It is a lie, which has cost many many lives.

Paying our troops to serve, and then turning our backs on them when they return to their lives, is not patriotism, nor is it supporting our troops. Voting for the man who refused to give them increased assistance, is not supporting our troops.

Sending them into battle without proper equipment, safe showers where they won't be executed, clean water that will not make them ill, is not supporting our troops.

Supporting a candidate who denies that any of this has occured, is not supporting our troops.

Voting for a man who lies about the results of the war, and conditions on the ground, is not supporting our troops.

Approving of sending the same battered troops back over and over, and supporting any war which requires that method to reinstituting a fair draft, is not supporting our troops, nor can it continue.

Supportinga policy of torture which puts our soldiers for all future military campaigns at a greater risk of being tortured themselves, is not patriotic. Failing to vote against it when one has actually been tortured, is far from heroic.

Those who vote for McCain should be aware that a draft will surely be necessary if he wins this election, and runs our foreign policy.

InTheZone
09-10-2008, 12:17 PM
When you have the wounded soldiers in the field and those returning home with no legs telling you that your banter is disrespectful to them, then your retort holds no water.

You can write on forever and your words would still mean nothing because you're too dense. You might be educated and well read, but you're somewhat of an political idiot savant.

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 12:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When you have the wounded soldiers in the field and those returning home with no legs telling you that your banter is disrespectful to them, then your retort holds no water.
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I wish you could hear what our troops tell me. Or perhaps you could look into the many Veterans which have come together to protest the way they're being treated by George bush, and John McCain's policies and votes. You'd surely understand the superficial and illogical contentions which you make in this post of yours.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can write on forever and your words would still mean nothing because you're too dense. You might be educated and well read, but you're somewhat of an political idiot savant. </div></div>

And you, my friend, are a right wing nutjob, hence, your disjointed view of what is supportive of our troops, and what is not. I dare say I have spoken with more of those young men and woman than you have. I don't rely on right wing propaganda as my only information, either. When sending our soldier into to war is just, and right, there is no need to lie them into it, at all.

Kerbouchard
09-10-2008, 12:33 PM
Gayle, did you even watch the video? Those are soldiers telling you how your statements make them feel.

While suicide rates in the service may be going up, they are still less than the general population.

I do not understand where you guys get your information about troops coming back and the gov't turning it's back on them. The military gave me everything, and the VA has helped me with everything I have asked them to. Those that are saying they are being denied services are either not asking or have been separated Dishonorably.

How can you say that conditions on the ground are being misrepresented? The only person that will not acknowledge the conditions on the ground is Senator Obama.

McCain is against torture and voted to close Gitmo witch was at odds with his party.

Quite simply, I don't see how we can have a logical debate. You put forth statements as if they are facts when I and thousands of people who have been there know them to be false.

Take a look at the video. If those can't convince you, then nothing that I could write will ever make a difference. I still get chills when I go back to watch them.

InTheZone
09-10-2008, 12:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kerbouchard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gayle, did you even watch the video? Those are soldiers telling you how your statements make them feel.

While suicide rates in the service may be going up, they are still less than the general population.

I do not understand where you guys get your information about troops coming back and the gov't turning it's back on them. The military gave me everything, and the VA has helped me with everything I have asked them to. Those that are saying they are being denied services are either not asking or have been separated Dishonorably.

How can you say that conditions on the ground are being misrepresented? The only person that will not acknowledge the conditions on the ground is Senator Obama.

McCain is against torture and voted to close Gitmo witch was at odds with his party.

Quite simply, I don't see how we can have a logical debate. You put forth statements as if they are facts when I and thousands of people who have been there know them to be false.

Take a look at the video. If those can't convince you, then nothing that I could write will ever make a difference. I still get chills when I go back to watch them. </div></div>

She refuses to watch and acknowledge the videos because she's afraid she might be wrong. Or worse, she's so head strong that she just won't believe they are for real.

Regardless, it does not matter what she thinks because we can clearly see what they think.

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 12:54 PM
McCain did not even show up to vote on the torture bill that he himself promoted.

He voted against increasing funds for our troops, and their families when they return home, and providing increased educational opportunities for them and their families, also.

I have witnessed our brain damaged troops at Walter Reed, left in a limbo of red tape, trying to get out of there and back near their homes for continuing medical care. I have done the walking around of papers which our government refuses to pay enough people to do in order that such a limbo would not be on-going for our troops, who have been injured, to have to deal with on top of everything else.


I rely on my own experience, particuularly when I know for a fact that George Bush NEVER tells the truth about anything, and anyone in his rhelm who dares to do so, is removed from their duties.

You can get a group of people to say something, but that does not make it true.

Our troops have been treated like S**T! Don't talk to me about our troops! I've been watching this for years. Many of them wouldn't have lost their legs if George Bush had spent the money he got from Congress to buy them decent equipment, armor and showers where they wouldn't be executed, instead of building a Vatican sized embassy in Iraq!

I will watch the video when you watch NO END IN SIGHT.

Kerbouchard
09-10-2008, 01:11 PM
Post the link and I will watch your video.

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 01:23 PM
You can read about it here.

http://www.moviefone.com/movie/no-end-in..._movie_titles.M (http://www.moviefone.com/movie/no-end-in-sight/28945/synopsis?flv=1&ncid=bSDWgUnvxr0000000295&icid=rbox_movie_titles.M)

I know of no internet link for watching the movie. I bought a copy at Blockbusters, and if you look for it, you can rent it and watch it.

Kerbouchard
09-10-2008, 01:35 PM
That movie was released prior to the surge or announcements of the surge. There is also a time line established and phased troop withdrawal.

I would say there most certainly is an end in sight, but next time I am in blockbuster I'll take a look at it.

But I do, sincerely, hope that you are not basing your opinion of the situation on the ground in Iraq on a movie that was released just under a year ago. Things have changed drastically in that time.

Gayle in MD
09-10-2008, 01:55 PM
No, I do not base my opinions on anything other than what I hear from our soldiers, several honorable journalists who have been in Baghdad throughout this Iraq Occupation, some of my friends in government, and in the press, the writing of many national security experts from both parties, the statements included in our National Security Estimates, the daily news, coming out of Iraq, the statements made by Maliki, General Petraeus, the Joint chiefs, the BBC, and the many books written by Arab Experts, both historians, and plitzer prize winning authors. Other than that, I watch live testimony on C-Span.

but your title, Freedom Isn't Free, may be a true statement, however, fighting in Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom here. Iraq was no threat to our freedom here when we went into Iraq. The mistake of this war will not change, regardless of what violence levels are at any given time. You can't win another countries civil war, you can put it off for a while, but you can't win it, any more than you can force a nation into democracy at the end of a gun.

Gayle in Md.

Chopstick
09-10-2008, 05:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By saying you support the troops but not the war is the same thing as saying that what we have fought and sacrificed for was worthless and I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that.
</div></div>

That is a very inexact statement to make. Nothing could be further from the truth.

</div></div>

That is a very specific statement and you are guilty as hell.

Hanoi Gayle.

pooltchr
09-10-2008, 07:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I will watch the video when you watch NO END IN SIGHT.
</div></div>

In other words, you don't need to know what it is you are talking about before you jump into the discussion. But then, this is nothing new with you. I wonder if you EVER know what you are talking about!

Steve

sack316
09-10-2008, 11:06 PM
I have plenty of friends that have been all over this Earth serving our country. Many of which have been in Iraq at one time or another. Many of those have served more than one duty over there. Many of those have themselves volunteered to go back. None of them have ever said anything about the war being pointless, or that we are accomplishing nothing over there. The biggest complaints I've gotten is about how hot it can get and how there is no beer. And of course they say it sucks to be over there, just as it sucks to be anywhere away from home for an extended period of time. But of all the people I know, and I would say it is a few dozen, that have been over there... not one solitary person has given a complaint for the same reasons you say things are wrong. Not that all of your points about the war are invalid... but of those I know, those that it would matter the most to, do not seem to agree. I don't know of a better place to learn, or a better source or opinion to hear, than that of those that I know that have been there. PTSD is possible the one thing you list with the most merit... which is of course a tragedy. But there is a large amount of PTSD from soldiers returning from Yongsan... Yongasn for goodness sakes.

Please don't think I'm dismissing your thoughts and opinions on this, just understand that I have no real reason to take your work over that of those I know who have been there. Those you know apparently say something different. But until I meet or talk to those people, the best word I have to go by is the ones I currently have.

Sack

Kerbouchard
09-11-2008, 07:41 AM
Well, Sack, I would say the soldier in the first video makes a pretty good argument, and if he says it is worth it to him and his friends, well, that's good enough for me.

For what its worth, it was worth it to me, too.

And my best friend(and best man at my wedding) has been at the San Antonio burn hospital since November of 2006. He's getting a lot better and actually beat me in golf the last time I saw him. You know something, it was worth it to him, too.

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 08:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't win another countries civil war, you can put it off for a while, but you can't win it, any more than you can force a nation into democracy at the end of a gun.

</div></div>

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 08:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You can't win another countries civil war, you can put it off for a while, but you can't win it, any more than you can force a nation into democracy at the end of a gun.

</div></div>

DickLeonard
09-11-2008, 08:37 AM
Pooltchr I think we have all seen all the propagands soldiers we need to see. All the Bush Props wih soldiers clapping. How would we know the YOUTUBE is not staged.####

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 08:50 AM
None of these rah rah war types can tell us what exactly we can win in Iraq. Being there alone, plays a tremendous part in our present economic threat right here, the worst time since the great depression, and McCain promising to do more of what got us into our present economic mess.

Making a country temporarily more stable and less violent does not erase a history of ethnic and religious grudges. Our problems with terrorism, and oil, reach far far beyond Iraq. A focus for almost five years on a non threat, including all it's costs and repercussions among Arabs who already were antiamerican, has exacerbated all of our problems, economic, diplomatic, energy, radical elements, there is simpley no way that any informed citizen could subscribe to this absurd theory that this has been the correct policy.

Being called Hanoi Jane for recognizing that fact, is an example of the same old Republican denial which spews from every White House Press Room briefing. It has no affect at all other than to reafirm the premise that Americans can't think for themselves, and swallow up every propagandized lie they can get their hands on if it makes them think they are safer. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Criticism of policy has nothing at all to do with ones devotion and support for our soldiers. That is the reality.

Kerbouchard
09-11-2008, 09:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pooltchr I think we have all seen all the propagands soldiers we need to see. All the Bush Props wih soldiers clapping. How would we know the YOUTUBE is not staged.#### </div></div>

You're right. As an elaborate propaganda stunt, we cut off a mans leg and then forced him to pretend to state his feelings.

InTheZone
09-11-2008, 09:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pooltchr I think we have all seen all the propagands soldiers we need to see. All the Bush Props wih soldiers clapping. How would we know the YOUTUBE is not staged.#### </div></div>

Perhaps your intelligence here is staged &&&&

eg8r
09-11-2008, 10:42 AM
I agree with you, of the soldiers I know that have now spent at least two tours over in Iraq, they all believe it was worth it also. Don't let gayle get you down, she might type a lot but in the grand scheme of things it is just hot air.

eg8r

wolfdancer
09-11-2008, 11:20 AM
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Edited by Margaret Griffis :: Contact
American Military Casualties in Iraq
Date

Total

In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 4155 3376
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list)

4016

3268
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 3694 3070
Since Handover (6/29/04): 3296 2743
Since Election (1/31/05): 2718 2480
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 30568 Over 100000

Yes, well worth it...but now they want us to get the f**k out.
A little like our Vietnam adventure???
And the Chinese are standing by to take control of their oil.

"....of the soldiers I know that have now spent at least two tours over in Iraq...."

probably the saddest statement that you have ever written...and doubt that you even considered what you wrote.
If you can't see the tragic irony in your post, I won't bother trying to explain it for you

eg8r
09-11-2008, 11:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, well worth it...but now they want us to get the f**k out.</div></div>And I think we should give them what they want. We should pull out per their recommendation and not go back.

eg8r

wolfdancer
09-11-2008, 11:31 AM
I'd agree with you, except that Iran might then invade.
I don't believe that we can safely pull out for the next 10 years or so....plus with the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi casualties....how many new terrorists have we created there, seeking to avenge those deaths?

eg8r
09-11-2008, 11:36 AM
If Iran invades it would not be too different than it is now. Iran has been invading for the past 6 years. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif If they want us out, we should leave.

eg8r

bsmutz
09-11-2008, 12:19 PM
Let's hope in the meantime that nobody decides to attack and take over our country because we DO have WMDs and might use them on someone else. Of course they would be justified since they would be using the same reasoning we did.
And, for the original poster, war is never the right answer. It never has been and it never will be. War is against life. Everything that we do should be pro-life. Just because a bunch of politicians have their collective heads up their asses doesn't mean that we have to agree with what they try to make us do or believe. Get off your high horse. You're merely showing your ignorance.

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 01:09 PM
They won't have to invade. We saw what twenty did om 2001. I'd say in our present Republican created confluence of disasterous economic policies, 80 could bring us down, given our present economic circumstances.

The Republican use of Cultural anger, marshalled to achieve economic ends for the few at the top, is alive and well, and those who vote against their own best self interests, are all too ready to go right back in there and do it again, in spite of the obvious grave results which only they are willing to deny.

Denial is a powerful ally, and it is alive and well, as we can see right here.

bsmutz
09-11-2008, 01:37 PM
Yes, it looks like our greed and religious fervor for the dollar is going to be our downfall. As long as the few at the top have their billions of dollars, our anal rape of the planet will have been worth it. I wouldn't blame the Republicans, though. I think we pretty much all have a finger in the pie, to some extent or another.

Gayle in MD
09-11-2008, 01:43 PM
I blame them, and rightfully so.

The last president who leveled with the Amrican People was Jimmy Carter. REading his speech, the one that Republicans called the Malaise speech, is like reading the words of a profit. He was right on the money. Then REagan came along as the feel good candidate, promising one thing and leaving quite another, as all Republicans always do.

Now McCain is doing the same thing, trying to say he is a maverick, and is for change, when he has completly turn against his own original positions on everything in order to get "The Party" behind him.

McCain, and Bush, are the worst liars ever. Nixon looks like an angel compared to these two.

Republicans have been running everything for longer than anyone else. They had a banquet for six years, and now they want to turn it all around and blame it on Democratics.

Only the stupid could fall for this.

Gayle in Md.

bsmutz
09-11-2008, 01:53 PM
You can blame whoever you like. The republicans in charge couldn't do what they have done without the backing of others. I didn't see any Democrats starting impeachment proceedings. I don't see them protesting very loudly. In fact, I still see the majority of people accepting the status quo and not doing much of anything to try to change our way of living for the better. We're all still working for the big corporations, shopping at Walmart, worrying if others think we're good enough to associate with, and driving our SUVs. The change it's going to take is going to have to be radical. Hopefully, it's not forced on us by circumstances of our own making.

Gayle in MD
09-15-2008, 01:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can blame whoever you like. The republicans in charge couldn't do what they have done without the backing of others. <span style="color: #000066">Not true. Democratics have not had a 60% majority, or two thirds, yet. Without it, what can they do? </span> I didn't see any Democrats starting impeachment proceedings. <span style="color: #000066">AGain, they don't have enough votes, this isn't the Republican Base of the sixties, when there were still some Republican men of integrity around. There ae only two like that now, Smith, and Hagel, and the rest are Bush's sheep. </span> I don't see them protesting very loudly. <span style="color: #000066">Then you haven't been listening very hard. They have been protesting throughout this administration. Just turn on C-Span, and you'll hear them protesting every day. </span> In fact, I still see the majority of people accepting the status quo and not doing much of anything to try to change our way of living for the better. <span style="color: #000066">I don't agree. They raised the minimum wage, pushed thought the 9/11 recommendations, pushed through more help for our veterans, got some Campaign ethics going, and they've put pressure on Maliki throughout, while Bush was always sneding the message that they had all the time in the world, for literally years! </span> We're all still working for the big corporations, shopping at Walmart, worrying if others think we're good enough to associate with, and driving our SUVs. <span style="color: #000066">Yes, and we still have a Republican Administration, with enough Republicans in the house to back them up. </span> The change it's going to take is going to have to be radical. Hopefully, it's not forced on us by circumstances of our own making.

<span style="color: #000066">We're already seeing that, friend. WE already in the hole, the question is do we keep digging? Voting Republican would be exactly that.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </span>
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