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av84fun
09-11-2008, 03:59 PM
I am not trying to start anything or to criticize anyone's description of the pendulum stroke...I'm just curious!!! (-:

My first question is probably to Dr. Dave when I ask if anyone has captured what purports to be a pendulum stroke in video?

As we all know, the bob of a pendulum swings on an arc and is only moving on a level plane momentarily.

Most shots have a downward slope due to the intervention of the rails and a proper shot is usually described as one where the tip continues to move toward the cloth after CB impact.

That, of course, does not describe the movement of a pendulum.

Even if the pendulum stroke finished at the bottom of the arc thereby finishing lower than where it started, its approach to that place would be represented by a curving track that does not seem to exist.

One video I found said that the pendulum stroke moves "back and forth" which, of course is not true. "Back and forth" more correctly describes a "track stroke" it seems to me.

So, I guess the question is whether it is more correct to describe a stroke as tracking an inclined plane rather than a pendulum arc?


THANKS!

Jim

Rich R.
09-11-2008, 09:28 PM
The term "pendulum stroke" describes the movement of the forearm, not the movement of the cue.

Consider the forearm the pendulum and consider the hand the bob on the end of the pendulum. The movement of the forearm is close to the movement of the pendulum and the hand follows an arcing pattern, similar to the bob.
With a loose grip on the cue, the cue will be at its most level position when the forearm is at the bottom of the arc of the pendulum type swing. It is a given that the cue will rarely, if ever, be perfectly flat. In a perfect world, the cue should be making contact with the cue ball, when the cue is at this most level position.
As the forearm passes the point where it is perpendicular to the table, and begins to rise, the loose grip allows the butt of the cue to come up and the tip of the cue to go down toward the cloth. In this example, I guess you could call the bridge hand a fulcrum, but I'm not sure I'm using that term correctly in this case. It may be more accurate to call it a pivot point.

I'm not exactly sure what an "inclined plane" is, so I can not comment on that point.

Hopefully, one of the instructors on this forum will jump in here and explain this much better than I can.

av84fun
09-12-2008, 12:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The term "pendulum stroke" describes the movement of the forearm, not the movement of the cue.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #000099">Right...the forearm moves as a pendulum. I was more referring to the entire arm/cue "assembly" since we strike the CB with the cue not the forearm. </span> (-:</span>

Consider the forearm the pendulum and consider the hand the bob on the end of the pendulum. The movement of the forearm is close to the movement of the pendulum and the hand follows an arcing pattern, similar to the bob.
With a loose grip on the cue, the cue will be at its most level position when the forearm is at the bottom of the arc of the pendulum type swing.

<span style="color: #000099"> </span> <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #000099">Yes, the loose grip is the key...along with the wrist which slants forward during the backstroke. It is that wrist movement and the releasing of the back fingers that prevents the CUE from acting like a pendulum.

Given the above, the cue traces a slanted path that moves "up hill" on the backstroke and back "down hill" on the forward stroke...which is what I mean by an "inclined plane."

Then, after impact, the cue continues to move on that downwardly inclined plane all the way to the cloth if draw is used but at least slightly downward unless dropping the elbow causes the tip to rise.

So, on most shots, the cue is never level...even momentarily...but rather tracks along a downwardly inclined path.</span></span>

It is a given that the cue will rarely, if ever, be perfectly flat. In a perfect world, the cue should be making contact with the cue ball, when the cue is at this most level position.
As the forearm passes the point where it is perpendicular to the table, and begins to rise, the loose grip allows the butt of the cue to come up and the tip of the cue to go down toward the cloth. In this example, I guess you could call the bridge hand a fulcrum, but I'm not sure I'm using that term correctly in this case. It may be more accurate to call it a pivot point.

I'm not exactly sure what an "inclined plane" is, so I can not comment on that point.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Hopefully, one of the instructors on this forum will jump in here and explain this much better than I can.</span>

</div></div>

I am an instructor. (-:

The reason I wanted to chat about this subject is that I have had good results by getting students to focus on the path of the cue as the grip hand moves toward the Finish position....rather than have them focus on the pendulum action of the forearm. They can SEE the cue but not the forearm.

It seems the more I talk about the pendulum stroke, the more the student wants to PUMP the cue with a full fist grip.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards,
Jim

cushioncrawler
09-12-2008, 03:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....So, I guess the question is whether it is more correct to describe a stroke as tracking an inclined plane rather than a pendulum arc? THANKS! Jim</div></div>Jim -- I reckon that Efren and Busta and Pankaj hav shown us all that there iz a kritikal plane -- it iz the vertical plane. madMac.

Rich R.
09-12-2008, 07:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The term "pendulum stroke" describes the movement of the forearm, not the movement of the cue.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #000099">Right...the forearm moves as a pendulum. I was more referring to the entire arm/cue "assembly" since we strike the CB with the cue not the forearm. </span> (-:</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't think you can consider the arm/cue assembly as one unit. They do different things. The arm moves as a pendulum, but the cue does not. If anything, for lack of a better example, it may be better to consider the hand as a hinge between the arm and the cue. </span>

Consider the forearm the pendulum and consider the hand the bob on the end of the pendulum. The movement of the forearm is close to the movement of the pendulum and the hand follows an arcing pattern, similar to the bob.
With a loose grip on the cue, the cue will be at its most level position when the forearm is at the bottom of the arc of the pendulum type swing.

<span style="color: #000099"> </span> <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style="color: #000099">Yes, the loose grip is the key...along with the wrist which slants forward during the backstroke. It is that wrist movement and the releasing of the back fingers that prevents the CUE from acting like a pendulum.

<span style="color: #FF0000">This is a good example of how the hand acts more like a hinge. </span>

Given the above, the cue traces a slanted path that moves "up hill" on the backstroke and back "down hill" on the forward stroke...which is what I mean by an "inclined plane."

Then, after impact, the cue continues to move on that downwardly inclined plane all the way to the cloth if draw is used but at least slightly downward unless dropping the elbow causes the tip to rise.

So, on most shots, the cue is never level...even momentarily...but rather tracks along a downwardly inclined path.</span></span>

It is a given that the cue will rarely, if ever, be perfectly flat. In a perfect world, the cue should be making contact with the cue ball, when the cue is at this most level position.
As the forearm passes the point where it is perpendicular to the table, and begins to rise, the loose grip allows the butt of the cue to come up and the tip of the cue to go down toward the cloth. In this example, I guess you could call the bridge hand a fulcrum, but I'm not sure I'm using that term correctly in this case. It may be more accurate to call it a pivot point.

I'm not exactly sure what an "inclined plane" is, so I can not comment on that point.

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Hopefully, one of the instructors on this forum will jump in here and explain this much better than I can.</span>

</div></div>

I am an instructor. (-:

<span style="color: #FF0000">I'm sorry, I didn't know you were an instructor.
I was referring more to Scott Lee or Randy G., as I know they teach students to have a pendulum arm swing. </span>

The reason I wanted to chat about this subject is that I have had good results by getting students to focus on the path of the cue as the grip hand moves toward the Finish position....rather than have them focus on the pendulum action of the forearm. They can SEE the cue but not the forearm.

<span style="color: #FF0000">You can still teach them to focus on the path of the cue. Just teach them that the hand is not part of the pendulum and the loose grip and wrist is necessary to achieve the correct cue path. </span>

It seems the more I talk about the pendulum stroke, the more the student wants to PUMP the cue with a full fist grip.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>

Soflasnapper
09-12-2008, 10:46 AM
I hope this is on-topic.

I got the Scott Lee/Randy G instructional dvds. I had forgotten the way they say to end the stroke, with running the grip hand into your chest for a natural stopping point.

I don't do that currently, but I'm considering adding that ending point to my stroke.

Do you do that yourself? Know of people who do that (other than those who've been to their school LOL)?

Comments on why it's a preferred method, or why it's optional?

av84fun
09-12-2008, 10:58 AM
Thanks Rich. Having studied with Scott I can say that yes...he mentiones the pendulum stroke but mostly, he is hands on (literally) about not dropping the elbow and ending up in the correct finish position.

If the elbow remains in a fixed position, then the forearm must swing in pendulum fashion by default.

Having reviewed the thread, I have to apologize for not framing my question very well. I meant to stimulate discussion on the best way to teach the stroke and I have issues with references to a pendulum since the CUE travels essentially on an inclined, back and forward track. (at least is appears to which is why I asked about slo mo video).

I guess I'm just suggesting that holding a water bottle on top of the shooters tricep muscle during the stroke...which Scott does...and telling the shooter to maintain contact with the bottle through to the finish forces the forearm to move in a pendulum fashion without ever mentioning that word.

Regards,
Jim

DeadCrab
09-12-2008, 12:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope this is on-topic.

I got the Scott Lee/Randy G instructional dvds. I had forgotten the way they say to end the stroke, with running the grip hand into your chest for a natural stopping point.

I don't do that currently, but I'm considering adding that ending point to my stroke.

Do you do that yourself? Know of people who do that (other than those who've been to their school LOL)?

Comments on why it's a preferred method, or why it's optional?

</div></div>

Well, it is one of the very few known uses for man-boobs.

But I think it is optional, and will depend on your stance and body type.

av84fun
09-12-2008, 12:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope this is on-topic.

I got the Scott Lee/Randy G instructional dvds. I had forgotten the way they say to end the stroke, with running the grip hand into your chest for a natural stopping point.

I don't do that currently, but I'm considering adding that ending point to my stroke.

Do you do that yourself? Know of people who do that (other than those who've been to their school LOL)?

Comments on why it's a preferred method, or why it's optional?

</div></div>

First, there is no such thing as the CORRECT stroke or stance or anything else. Souquet and Ortman stand off to the side...most Bitish players stand very square to the shot instead of the classic 45 degree angle. Keith strokes it almost side arm, Django has more loops in his stroke than a cloverleaf highway interchange etc.

But the VAST majority of people will do better with "classic" mechanics and are hurting themselves by not adopting them.

Finishing with the grip hand at a specific spot on the chest presumes something resembling classic stance mechanics.

My finish position has the "base knuckle" of my grip hand thumb hitting the lower right quadrant of my right pec muscle.

I would HIGHLY recommend following the procedures recommended in Scott and Randyh's video. But great instructors will quickly see whether the student's own techniques are highly repeatable and if they are...they won't mess with them.

Can you imagine some instructor telling Django to pull his cue straight back!

(-:

Jim

Rich R.
09-12-2008, 05:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope this is on-topic.

I got the Scott Lee/Randy G instructional dvds. I had forgotten the way they say to end the stroke, with running the grip hand into your chest for a natural stopping point.

I don't do that currently, but I'm considering adding that ending point to my stroke.

Do you do that yourself? Know of people who do that (other than those who've been to their school LOL)?

Comments on why it's a preferred method, or why it's optional?

</div></div>
Phil, IIRC, they teach the act of bringing the grip hand to the chest, or some other natural stopping point, as a way of insuring that you are completing the stroke and follow through.

dr_dave
09-12-2008, 06:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first question is probably to Dr. Dave when I ask if anyone has captured what purports to be a pendulum stroke in video?</div></div>Some video links and discussion can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
09-14-2008, 01:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first question is probably to Dr. Dave when I ask if anyone has captured what purports to be a pendulum stroke in video?</div></div>Some video links and discussion can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

GOD!!! The first thing I click on as that nutcase "The Oyster" shooting in his underwear! I guess that's a step up from his appearances in the nude but the man is an embarrassment to pool.



He was also booted out of the BCA Instructor program due to his submission of falsified documents so he created his OWN organization and declared himself a Master Instructor.

You lower your own otherwise stellar reputation, IMHO, by giving him any publicity!!

)-:

Jim

dr_dave
09-14-2008, 08:42 AM
I admit that I don't like having a link to anything from him on my site, but this particular video is well done (IMO).

Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first question is probably to Dr. Dave when I ask if anyone has captured what purports to be a pendulum stroke in video?</div></div>Some video links and discussion can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

GOD!!! The first thing I click on as that nutcase "The Oyster" shooting in his underwear! I guess that's a step up from his appearances in the nude but the man is an embarrassment to pool.



He was also booted out of the BCA Instructor program due to his submission of falsified documents so he created his OWN organization and declared himself a Master Instructor.

You lower your own otherwise stellar reputation, IMHO, by giving him any publicity!!

)-:

Jim </div></div>

av84fun
09-14-2008, 01:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>I admit that I don't like having a link to anything from him on my site</span>, but this particular video is well done (IMO).

Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first question is probably to Dr. Dave when I ask if anyone has captured what purports to be a pendulum stroke in video?</div></div>Some video links and discussion can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

GOD!!! The first thing I click on as that nutcase "The Oyster" shooting in his underwear! I guess that's a step up from his appearances in the nude but the man is an embarrassment to pool.



He was also booted out of the BCA Instructor program due to his submission of falsified documents so he created his OWN organization and declared himself a Master Instructor.

You lower your own otherwise stellar reputation, IMHO, by giving him any publicity!!

)-:

Jim </div></div> </div></div>

You don't "have to"

Jim