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View Full Version : Republican Texas governor Kills Innocent Man?



Gayle in MD
10-14-2009, 12:58 PM
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/10/did_texas_kill_an_innocent_man.cfm

LWW
10-14-2009, 01:21 PM
Really?

And here I thought Texas used a jury system?

As sad as this story may be, you are uncouth enough to politicize it when political party has absolutely nothing to do with it.

But ... never miss a chance to hatefully slime a group of people you disagree with eh?

LWW

wolfdancer
10-14-2009, 02:36 PM
Gayle, a sad story indeed, and the reply from the "special one"...I confess that I had to read it, thinking WTF could he be objecting to, unless like the war, he has special, insider's knowledge.
Much to my surprise, (sic), he tried to make it into a right Vs left thing, and claimed you violated the three precepts of the Republican party....see no evil, hear no evil, report no evil (as re: their pols)
following that link....I thought I saw a resemblance to your detractor in this "tale":
I remember once seeing crowd watch a farmer build up and then repeatedly smash down a straw man on his property.

I joined the crowd and asked aloud, “Why is he doing that?”

He didn’t stop but shouted back, “Can’t any of you see that this straw man is trying to take over my property?”

I replied, stupified, “But, that straw man, it isn’t...”

He screamed, “NO! I will NOT give ground to this straw man, no matter what any of you have to say to me!”

Many in the crowd continued to try and reason with him, but everyone eventually got bored and walked away.

In the end, the farmer won the day because he had stood his ground despite the swarm of people against him!

sack316
10-14-2009, 06:28 PM
well for this matter, we can dig deeper into who killed who, in a political sense.

from 1819 to 1923 hanging was the law of the land in Texas for the death penalty. Under which time there were 24 Democratic governors and 2 republican.

1924-1977 saw the electric chair as the best means. 0 (zero) republican governors in this time span. All Democrats.

Since then it has been lethal injection, over which time texas has seen 3 democrats and 3 republicans.

So yeah, maybe in this instance a republican governor ignored what was put before him and allowed a possible innocent man to be put to his death. But if this thread is how the game is to be played, then I'm curious as to how many innocent men were put to death by the 39 democratic governors of Texas as compared to the five republican governors over the course of time.

hmmmmmmm.....

Sack

wolfdancer
10-14-2009, 06:40 PM
There probably were several, however in this case, it seems that he ignored findings that the man might be innocent. The execution should at least have been postponed....
Imagine the horror of being executed for being wrongly convicted of killing the family that you loved and lost.
You can't excuse that, by dwelling on something that might have occurred in 1819.....it's "fuzzy logic"

sack316
10-14-2009, 08:07 PM
fuzzy logic... nah not really... if you consider that the death penalty is there under democratic watch... installed and carried out, be that 1819, 1924, or 1977. Why, if not for them who knows if there'd even be a death penalty there? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack

wolfdancer
10-14-2009, 08:18 PM
again, you are trying to make it seem as though this is a political thing....maybe since it is the deep south...it's a religious thing....an eye for an eye...someone has to be punished

DickLeonard
10-14-2009, 10:20 PM
lww the last pres prsided over 153 executions everyone was guilty even a prisoner with the mentality of third grader. If they were found guilty they must be Guilty. God help Us. ####

wolfdancer
10-15-2009, 02:44 AM
I did some more reading on this:
fire (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.patrickcrusade.org/Willingham4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.patrickcrusade.org/Cameron_Todd_Willingham.html&h=350&w=276&sz=13&tbnid=pGVp-MStIRwpLM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCameron%2BTodd%2BWillingham&usg=__VkV47xZsJ4EdxfXfE54jt8WkVDE=&ei=HtzWSomlEYfUtgPMz7nLAg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CCIQ9QEwBg)
I think they got the wrong man...it's Texas....I think Bush did it.
Seriously, that's the night when the lights went out in Texas,
that's the night when they killed an innocent man.
He also turned down a plea of life, if he plead guilty, ....and he restated his innocence just before they murdered him .
Firing <s>3</s> now 4 members of the forensic science commission????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Over the past five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by nine of the nation’s top fire scientists—first for the Tribune, then for the Innocence Project, and now for the [Texas Forensic Science Commission]. All concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify the determination of arson. </div></div>

Qtec
10-15-2009, 04:10 AM
You should read this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1998, Hurst investigated the case of a woman from North Carolina named Terri Hinson, who was charged with setting a fire that killed her seventeen-month-old son, and faced the death penalty. Hurst ran a series of experiments re-creating the conditions of the fire, which suggested that it had not been arson, as the investigators had claimed; rather, it had started accidentally, from a faulty electrical wire in the attic. <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Because of this research, Hinson was freed. John Lentini, a fire expert and the author of a leading scientific textbook on arson, describes Hurst as “brilliant.” A Texas prosecutor once told the Chicago Tribune, of Hurst, “If he says it was an arson fire, then it was. If he says it wasn’t, then it wasn’t.”</span>

Hurst’s patents yielded considerable royalties, and he could afford to work pro bono on an arson case for months, even years. But he received the files on Willingham’s case only a few weeks before Willingham was scheduled to be executed. As Hurst looked through the case records, a statement by Manuel Vasquez, the state deputy fire marshal, jumped out at him. Vasquez had testified that, of the roughly twelve hundred to fifteen hundred fires he had investigated, “most all of them” were arson. This was an oddly high estimate; the Texas State Fire Marshals Office typically found arson in only fifty per cent of its cases.

Hurst was also struck by Vasquez’s claim that the Willingham blaze had “burned fast and hot” because of a liquid accelerant. The notion that a flammable or combustible liquid caused flames to reach higher temperatures had been repeated in court by arson sleuths for decades. Yet the theory was nonsense: experiments have proved that wood and gasoline-fuelled fires burn at essentially the same temperature.

Vasquez and Fogg had cited as proof of arson the fact that the front door’s aluminum threshold had melted. “The only thing that can cause that to react is an accelerant,” Vasquez said. Hurst was incredulous. A natural-wood fire can reach temperatures as high as two thousand degrees Fahrenheit—far hotter than the melting point for aluminum alloys, which ranges from a thousand to twelve hundred degrees. And, like many other investigators, Vasquez and Fogg mistakenly assumed that wood charring beneath the aluminum threshold was evidence that, as Vasquez put it, “a liquid accelerant flowed underneath and burned.” Hurst had conducted myriad experiments showing that such charring was caused simply by the aluminum conducting so much heat. In fact, when liquid accelerant is poured under a threshold a fire will extinguish, because of a lack of oxygen. (Other scientists had reached the same conclusion.) “Liquid accelerants can no more burn under an aluminum threshold than can grease burn in a skillet even with a loose-fitting lid,” Hurst declared in his report on the Willingham case.


Hurst then examined Fogg and Vasquez’s claim that the “brown stains” on Willingham’s front porch were evidence of “liquid accelerant,” which had not had time to soak into the concrete. Hurst had previously performed a test in his garage, in which he poured charcoal-lighter fluid on the concrete floor, and lit it. When the fire went out, there were no brown stains, only smudges of soot. Hurst had run the same experiment many times, with different kinds of liquid accelerants, and the result was always the same. Brown stains were common in fires; they were usually composed of rust or gunk from charred debris that had mixed with water from fire hoses.

Another crucial piece of evidence implicating Willingham was the “crazed glass” that Vasquez had attributed to the rapid heating from a fire fuelled with liquid accelerant. Yet, in November of 1991, a team of fire investigators had inspected fifty houses in the hills of Oakland, California, which had been ravaged by brush fires. In a dozen houses, the investigators discovered crazed glass, even though a liquid accelerant had not been used. Most of these houses were on the outskirts of the blaze, where firefighters had shot streams of water; as the investigators later wrote in a published study, they theorized that the fracturing had been induced by rapid cooling, rather than by sudden heating—thermal shock had caused the glass to contract so quickly that it settled disjointedly. The investigators then tested this hypothesis in a laboratory. When they heated glass, nothing happened. But each time they applied water to the heated glass the intricate patterns appeared. Hurst had seen the same phenomenon when he had blowtorched and cooled glass during his research at Cambridge. In his report, Hurst wrote that Vasquez and Fogg’s notion of crazed glass was no more than an “old wives’ tale.”

Hurst then confronted some of the most devastating arson evidence against Willingham: the burn trailer, the pour patterns and puddle configurations, the V-shape and other burn marks indicating that the fire had multiple points of origin, the burning underneath the children’s beds. There was also the positive test for mineral spirits by the front door, and Willingham’s seemingly implausible story that he had run out of the house without burning his bare feet.

As Hurst read through more of the files, he noticed that Willingham and his neighbors had described the windows in the front of the house suddenly exploding and flames roaring forth. It was then that Hurst thought of the legendary Lime Street Fire, one of the most pivotal in the history of arson investigation. </div></div> great aricle (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann?currentPage=13)

How many others are in prison or dead because of these so called ' arson experts' and jail house snitches ?
For people like Perry, supposedly good Christian Church going, upstanding citizens,......... Americans are expendable.
They executed an innocent man and won't even admit they made a mistake. They would rather protect their cronies than be honourable and just. In Texas, all you need to do to show how tough you are is to execute a lot of prisoners, innocent or guilty.......makes no difference.





Q

LWW
10-15-2009, 04:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lww the last pres prsided over 153 executions everyone was guilty even a prisoner with the mentality of third grader. If they were found guilty they must be Guilty. God help Us. #### </div></div>

Do you have the tiniest clue how our judicial system operates?

LWW

Qtec
10-15-2009, 04:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really?

And here I thought Texas used a jury system? </div></div>

Good luck when/if you come to trial. LOL

jury person (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wroj0FLvzs&feature=player_embedded)

Q

Gayle in MD
10-15-2009, 05:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did some more reading on this:
fire (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.patrickcrusade.org/Willingham4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.patrickcrusade.org/Cameron_Todd_Willingham.html&h=350&w=276&sz=13&tbnid=pGVp-MStIRwpLM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCameron%2BTodd%2BWillingham&usg=__VkV47xZsJ4EdxfXfE54jt8WkVDE=&ei=HtzWSomlEYfUtgPMz7nLAg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CCIQ9QEwBg)
I think they got the wrong man...it's Texas....I think Bush did it.
Seriously, that's the night when the lights went out in Texas,
that's the night when they killed an innocent man.
He also turned down a plea of life, if he plead guilty, ....and he restated his innocence just before they murdered him .
Firing <s>3</s> now 4 members of the forensic science commission????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Over the past five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by nine of the nation’s top fire scientists—first for the Tribune, then for the Innocence Project, and now for the [Texas Forensic Science Commission]. All concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify the determination of arson. </div></div>
</div></div>

<span style="color: #000066">There is really no question that he was innocent. The very best forensic investigator in the country, happens to be a man from Maryland, the fire wasn't set by anyone, according to him...and the Gov. stops the investigation?

Gee, I think we've heard of incompetent, negligent people trying to block investigations before....9/11? </span>

wolfdancer
10-15-2009, 04:31 PM
Q, that article brought up a troubling story from the past. I went through Fire School, and one of the sessions was on the tragic Chicago School fire, way back then, that killed 95 young students, I believe. The nuns had them in their seats, trying for an orderly escape from the window, but when the glass in the door gave way, the fire, starved for oxygen, and now with a new source to complete the fire triangle, incinerated them immediately.

hondo
10-15-2009, 05:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lww the last pres prsided over 153 executions everyone was guilty even a prisoner with the mentality of third grader. If they were found guilty they must be Guilty. God help Us. #### </div></div>


Are you in, Dick?

pooltchr
10-15-2009, 05:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">again, you are trying to make it seem as though this is a political thing....maybe since it is the deep south...it's a religious thing....an eye for an eye...someone has to be punished </div></div>

I think the original poster made it a "political thing" with the title of the thread.

Steve

wolfdancer
10-15-2009, 05:39 PM
I'd have to agree....he could have just as easily been a Democrat....and made what I believe to be a "bad call"
I seem to remember reading a few years back that Texas carried out the most executions of all the States, so maybe that factored in?

Gayle in MD
10-16-2009, 06:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did some more reading on this:
fire (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.patrickcrusade.org/Willingham4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.patrickcrusade.org/Cameron_Todd_Willingham.html&h=350&w=276&sz=13&tbnid=pGVp-MStIRwpLM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCameron%2BTodd%2BWillingham&usg=__VkV47xZsJ4EdxfXfE54jt8WkVDE=&ei=HtzWSomlEYfUtgPMz7nLAg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CCIQ9QEwBg)
I think they got the wrong man...it's Texas....I think Bush did it.
Seriously, that's the night when the lights went out in Texas,
that's the night when they killed an innocent man.
He also turned down a plea of life, if he plead guilty, ....and he restated his innocence just before they murdered him .
Firing <s>3</s> now 4 members of the forensic science commission????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Over the past five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by nine of the nation’s top fire scientists—first for the Tribune, then for the Innocence Project, and now for the [Texas Forensic Science Commission]. All concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify the determination of arson. </div></div>
</div></div>

I, too, think they got the wrong man. I watched the assigned public defender interviewed, and he was really a joke. He was interviewed last night on Anderson Cooper's program, cowboy hat and all.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Also, it has come out that one of the Jurors, was friends with him! That alone, was enough for a mistrial.

The accused didn't keep keep him for the appeal, either.

Actions by the governor were inappropriate to say the least.

The guy got railroaded. Nearly every forensic specialist on arsen, who reviewed the way the evidence was interpreted, agrees that it was not a case of arsen when using more accurate up-dated methods of scientific research.

Poor guy said to the end he was innocent...

G.

llotter
10-16-2009, 06:39 AM
It is strange that the victimology syndrome of the Left turns over every stone on behalf of convicted murderers in an effort to save their lives but in the same breath, spend an equal amount of effort to continue the slaughter of totally innocent babies.

The motive is to fundamentally upset the status quo and undermine the basic traditions that are essential to the operation of a free society to be replaced by the dictatorship of the elites.