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bradb
11-16-2009, 02:24 PM
I've been playing on Simonis 860 now for years and have my safety play down fairly well on it, but recently the local clubs have all gone to this super fast shaved cloth that makes Simonis look slow and I'm having a hell of a time playing safe on it.

It has pretty well eliminated down table bank safetys as the ball will drift out 2 or 3 feet with the slightest bounce. I was wondering if this is a local thing or are other clubs going to the super fast cloth? Brad

KellyStick
11-17-2009, 07:24 PM
In baton rouge we don't have Superfast cloth. I like fast. I have seen that over the past 10 years or so most tables have migrated from slow ass nappy felt to something faster. Mostly. BUt no "superfast" yet.

KellyStick
11-17-2009, 07:25 PM
Oh, I have the simonis 760 on my table and I like it.

1Time
11-18-2009, 12:55 PM
I've noticed a few things over the years in Vegas regarding table speeds in general. Tables get re-covered at best once a year and not usually with extremely fast cloth. When new they play nice and after a year they usually play noticeably faster. Rarely do I find tables with faster cloth than the Simonis on Diamond tables. The slower Simonis plays very well. But the faster one is too fast, especially as it gets worn.

Table speeds should be standardized within an acceptable range, just like the ball size and weight is standardized. A simple ball rolling device could be used to determine table speeds. Joe W posted about such a device a while back.

bradb
11-19-2009, 06:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've noticed a few things over the years in Vegas regarding table speeds in general. Tables get re-covered at best once a year and not usually with extremely fast cloth. When new they play nice and after a year they usually play noticeably faster. Rarely do I find tables with faster cloth than the Simonis on Diamond tables. The slower Simonis plays very well. But the faster one is too fast, especially as it gets worn.

Table speeds should be standardized within an acceptable range, just like the ball size and weight is standardized. A simple ball rolling device could be used to determine table speeds. Joe W posted about such a device a while back. </div></div>

I would love to see a standardized cloth. I now have to practice on these tables instead of my table at home which is frustrating.


Note to Kelly:
I believe the super fast cloth is Brunswick Tournament Addition or it could also be Simonis 760 which is really for 3-cushion billiards and is very fast. Its shaved right down and has no nap at all.

1Time
11-19-2009, 06:34 PM
I have no problem eventually adjusting my game to any speed of cloth / table. But it's just ridiculous how different some tables are. Standardization would make pool so much better.

I could not care less how conditions in golf, for example, change with different courses or the weather. Pool isn't golf. Basketball, for example, is much more standardized, and that's what pool should be more like.

I particularly like the type of cloth that when new it's easy to get extreme draw on the CB. I don't know what cloth it was, but I played on a table like that several months ago with Brunswick Centennial balls. That pool hall is now closed for business.

cushioncrawler
11-19-2009, 07:05 PM
Fast cloths are ok if they are allso very slippery, ie allowing nice soft long'distance draw.
But a fast cloth that iz hi'friktion iz horrible -- koz u karnt do soft draw -- u havta bash.
But i am talking about 12' tables.
madMac.

Paul_Mon
11-19-2009, 08:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[




Note to Kelly:
I believe the super fast cloth is Brunswick Tournament Addition or it could also be Simonis 760 which is really for 3-cushion billiards and is very fast. Its shaved right down and has no nap at all.

</div></div>

There is lots of counterfeit cloth out there, made offshore. It may not be Simonis. Let the buyer beware comes to mind. BTW, 860 and 760 are both without nap. IIRC, it's the percentage of wool that make one quicker.

Paul

wolfdancer
11-19-2009, 09:16 PM
Paul,as I remember it?...Granito, invented the fast cloth, and Simonis copied it.
We had the first table recovered with the equivalent of 760.had a big money match/exhibition scheduled....two great money players...
After just a couple of games....they called off the match.
Then the manufacturers raised back up the wool to nylon ratio and came up with 860, and now everyone without a stroke (me) could now draw the ball the length of the table.
As too shaving the cloth...the ends are on the bottom if it is installed correctly ( green side up,as in laying turf...lol) the loops are on the playing surface.
Googling fast cloth for pool...lots of Chinese companies are listed.

bradb
11-21-2009, 02:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paul_Mon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There is lots of counterfeit cloth out there, made offshore. It may not be Simonis. Let the buyer beware comes to mind. BTW, 860 and 760 are both without nap. IIRC, it's the percentage of wool that make one quicker.

Paul </div></div>

Yes that is correct however the dealer explained to me when I bought my 860 that the weave is also a bit tighter on the 760.

Theses tables are Brunswick $10,000 tables so I'm sure its quality cloth. But it could be chineses clone cloth as it lasts longer at half the price but its slippery as hell.. Brad

bradb
11-21-2009, 02:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Paul,as I remember it?...Granito, invented the fast cloth, and Simonis copied it.
We had the first table recovered with the equivalent of 760.had a big money match/exhibition scheduled....two great money players...
After just a couple of games....they called off the match.
Then the manufacturers raised back up the wool to nylon ratio and came up with 860, and now everyone without a stroke (me) could now draw the ball the length of the table.
As too shaving the cloth...the ends are on the bottom if it is installed correctly ( green side up,as in laying turf...lol) the loops are on the playing surface.
Googling fast cloth for pool...lots of Chinese companies are listed.
</div></div>

We have a very good player here who occasionally goes down to the states for tournament play. Before he goes he practices on an old Brunswick with standard cloth because this new fast stuff throws off his game for the tables down there.

1Time
11-21-2009, 02:57 PM
That could very well be the cloth that I shot on that was easy to shoot extreme draw. It was fun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But it could be chineses clone cloth as it lasts longer at half the price but its slippery as hell.
</div></div>

Bumlak
11-23-2009, 09:46 PM
There used to be a 100% worsted wool cloth back in the late 60's and early 70's called Ironweave if I remember correctly. The stuff makes 860 look like nap cloth and it wears MUCH slower than any other cloth that I have played. We used to have it an old 9ft. Vitale table at the Chattanooga Billiards Club downtown in the mid / late 80's.

Eric

Paul_Mon
11-24-2009, 04:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bumlak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There used to be a 100% worsted wool cloth back in the late 60's and early 70's called Ironweave if I remember correctly. The stuff makes 860 look like nap cloth and it wears MUCH slower than any other cloth that I have played. We used to have it an old 9ft. Vitale table at the Chattanooga Billiards Club downtown in the mid / late 80's.

Eric </div></div>
Eric, Please don't interpret this the wrong way But, a little more information would be nice. Such as. Is it still available? Was it made by a company that no longer exists? Was it made specifically for Vitale tables? You'd think if it was so good pro's would have insisted on it. In the late 60's Brunswick was king, but we had Simonis and it seemed to be the cloth of choice even then.

regards.........Paul

Bumlak
11-24-2009, 05:46 AM
Not at all Paul. I wish I had more information to give.

As I understand it, the company went out of business sometime in the late 70's to early 80's. I can't seem to find any record of it, but I will ask a friend of mine when I see him this coming week for some more information. I have tried to crawl the internet but can't find any reference to the cloth.

The story as I remember is that they simply could not sell enough of the cloth to stay in business. I know when I played on it, the stuff was like glass compared to the tables that had 860 on them.

Let me see if I can find additional information.

Eric

bradb
11-25-2009, 02:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That could very well be the cloth that I shot on that was easy to shoot extreme draw. It was fun. </div></div>

I asked the owners what this cloth is they had installed here and its called "Championship edition 360." (probably Chinese but then everthing is Chinese now)

They like it because it wears much longer than regular Simonis but is still good quality. It has a very tight weave and probably has acrylic mixed into the wool... thats what makes it so fast!

Its great to play on because you need very little spin to get around the table, but its very difficult to stun the QB so you wind up going to the rail and back a lot.

Usually I wind up going past my shape for the first couple of games... it takes a while to adjust.

cushioncrawler
11-25-2009, 04:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That could very well be the cloth that I shot on that was easy to shoot extreme draw. It was fun.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I asked the owners what this cloth is they had installed here and its called "Championship edition 360." (probably Chinese but then everthing is Chinese now) They like it because it wears much longer than regular Simonis but is still good quality. It has a very tight weave and probably has acrylic mixed into the wool... thats what makes it so fast! Its great to play on because you need very little spin to get around the table, but its very difficult to stun the QB so you wind up going to the rail and back a lot. Usually I wind up going past my shape for the first couple of games... it takes a while to adjust.</div></div>I fancy the faktory failed – and I figure that a deficiency in the fraktion of fine teflon in the fabrik weft iz the flaw.
I fear that fleet felts are the fashion – but this fad iz fraught.
If firms are fond of foisting fast formulas for fooling feeble folk then I foresee a fiasco in the future.
Firstly, I favour fine fleece in the fibres for fixing friktion – forsaking familiar flannel iz a fallacy.
For I wouldn’t fit a fluffy furl of flimsy flock even if the fee were free.
madMac.

Paul_Mon
11-25-2009, 04:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That could very well be the cloth that I shot on that was easy to shoot extreme draw. It was fun.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I asked the owners what this cloth is they had installed here and its called "Championship edition 360." (probably Chinese but then everthing is Chinese now) They like it because it wears much longer than regular Simonis but is still good quality. It has a very tight weave and probably has acrylic mixed into the wool... thats what makes it so fast! Its great to play on because you need very little spin to get around the table, but its very difficult to stun the QB so you wind up going to the rail and back a lot. Usually I wind up going past my shape for the first couple of games... it takes a while to adjust.</div></div>I fancy the faktory failed – and I figure that a deficiency in the fraktion of fine teflon in the fabrik weft iz the flaw.
I fear that fleet felts are the fashion – but this fad iz fraught.
If firms are fond of foisting fast formulas for fooling feeble folk then I foresee a fiasco in the future.
Firstly, I favour fine fleece in the fibres for fixing friktion – forsaking familiar flannel iz a fallacy.
For I wouldn’t fit a fluffy furl of flimsy flock even if the fee were free.
madMac. </div></div>

Is today the letter "F" day on Sesame Street and I missed it?

cushioncrawler
11-25-2009, 04:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paul_Mon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is today the letter "F" day on Sesame Street and I missed it?</div></div>F iz for te(F)lon.
madMac.

bradb
11-27-2009, 12:53 PM
Mac, you mix no metaphores and mince no meanings. Mainly you make mention of a maufacturing menace that manifests itself in more and more methodes of maintaining the maintenance of many markets.


Brad

Chilled
12-03-2009, 10:51 AM
Realise I'm a bit of an oddity in this but I honestly really liked the slow speed of the Gorina used in IPT approved venues for qualifiers and tourneys. Great for feel shots.

However when new there was so much skid or slide when banking that they were a nightmare for that until they bedded in. Have never had that problem with new Smonis.

Soflasnapper
12-03-2009, 06:18 PM
Mmmmm, not so sure of that!