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SPetty
08-15-2002, 12:08 PM
My break cue is out with my favorite arachnoid tip installer, so I was using a house cue to break during league play last night. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking with it, when I say that when I went to break, rather than actually hitting the cue ball, I "whiffed" it - just missed it on the side of the ball.

Now, of course, the question came up of whether it was a ball-in-hand foul to my opponent. Some people had the opinion that since the cue ball didn't cross the headstring, it wasn't in play yet (which is valid via Texas Express rules). Others said of course it was a foul (leaning heavily on the BCA rules). Anyway, that's not the question here...

The question is... According to the BCA rulebook that someone pulled out after the fact (even though we're playing Texas Express), "On the opening break, the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the cue tip."

In this case, I don't think the cue tip struck the cue ball, however, my opponent (and their captain) would call it a foul using BCA rules. Is this situation intended to be covered by that rule? Is this a foul since the cue tip didn't hit the cue ball (as evidenced by the fact that the cue ball did not move forward)?

08-15-2002, 12:22 PM
In my opinion,..... NO Foul, the ball didn't move foward.
--That's MY story and I'm sticking to it! LOL.

Snooky

08-15-2002, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> My break cue is out with my favorite arachnoid tip installer, so I was using a house cue to break during league play last night. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking with it, when I say that when I went to break, rather than actually hitting the cue ball, I "whiffed" it - just missed it on the side of the ball.

Now, of course, the question came up of whether it was a ball-in-hand foul to my opponent. Some people had the opinion that since the cue ball didn't cross the headstring, it wasn't in play yet (which is valid via Texas Express rules). Others said of course it was a foul (leaning heavily on the BCA rules). Anyway, that's not the question here...

The question is... According to the BCA rulebook that someone pulled out after the fact (even though we're playing Texas Express), "On the opening break, the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the cue tip."

In this case, I don't think the cue tip struck the cue ball, however, my opponent (and their captain) would call it a foul using BCA rules. Is this situation intended to be covered by that rule? Is this a foul since the cue tip didn't hit the cue ball (as evidenced by the fact that the cue ball did not move forward)?
<hr></blockquote>


i have no idea what apart of texas express they could be referring to but clearly, under bca, if you did not make contact with the cue tipon the cue ball than it was not a shot. maybe it was a practive stroke. it is correct that the rules have pretty much been set now that the game starts with contact and does not require the ball to cross the headstring.

if the cue ball moved at all then it was a foul.


dan

Rod
08-15-2002, 01:06 PM
Ms Petty, those darn house cues! I had the same problem in golf, hitting a motionless ball can be a challenge. LOL Oh on to the question, if the tip did not make contact then it is not a foul. The game starts after the tip makes contact. You were playing 9 ball? Where is a BCA rule or TE for that matter that says not hitting the c/b is a foul? I know don't answer a question with a question.

Eric.
08-15-2002, 01:08 PM
Hi SPetty,

As far as I know, unless the Qball was touched by the stick/tip/your hand, it is NOT considered a foul. Tex Ex and BCA rules do differ slightly, but both gurus agree that unless the Qball is struck, the game hasn't begun. If you did touch the QBall, then there is a foul, as the QBall is always live. JMO.

Eric

Wally_in_Cincy
08-15-2002, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Eric.:</font><hr> Hi SPetty,

As far as I know, unless the Qball was touched by the stick/tip/your hand, it is NOT considered a foul. Tex Ex and BCA rules do differ slightly, but both gurus agree that unless the Qball is struck, the game hasn't begun. If you did touch the QBall, then there is a foul, as the QBall is always live. JMO.

Eric <hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure I agree. You can move the q-ball with your shaft or hand (not the tip)before breaking and it's not a foul.
------------------------------------------

In SPetty's case that was definitely not a foul.

Eric.
08-15-2002, 01:56 PM
Hey Wally,

You're right as far as moving the ball. I think everything is "live" once you begin your stroke. Any rule gurus out there?

Eric

08-15-2002, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Eric.:</font><hr> Hey Wally,

You're right as far as moving the ball. I think everything is "live" once you begin your stroke. Any rule gurus out there?

Eric <hr></blockquote>

in trying to be consistant, the bca has made it a bit more complicated.

there is no reference to "beginning the stroke" and, in fact, they have, for some time, allowed the use of the cue, including specifically, the cue tip, in positioning the ball. if you have ball in hand you may use the cue tip to move the ball around.

however, since they have now made most of the rules consistant that the game starts with the cue tip impacting the cue ball some people will, no doubt, go back to calling foul if the tip touches the ball.

the interpretation is "with a forward stroking motion". really, it goes to intent. you know the difference between moving the ball into position as opposed to shooting it when you see it. very similar to the rule on laying the cue on the table and taking your hand off it. that's not a foul unless the person is using the cue as an aiming device.

dan

SPetty
08-15-2002, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the responses. Man, I tried so hard to be complete and concise, yet again failed so miserably...

The game was 9-ball.

When I said "whiffed" it, I meant that, as I was performing the stroke, the cue stick came past the side of the cue ball, touching it ever so slightly, and the cue ball moved sideways no more than three inches. Maybe just maybe there was a little forward motion to the sideways motion, but definitely not the kind of forward motion you'd get if the ball was/were hit with the cue tip - the tip of the cue - at the end of it - where you put the chalk...

Does this change anyone's answer?

And, the Texas Express rules are found at http://www.texasexpress.com/main/rules.htm and BCA rules are found at http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml.

Thanks again!

08-15-2002, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> Thanks for the responses. Man, I tried so hard to be complete and concise, yet again failed so miserably...

The game was 9-ball.

When I said "whiffed" it, I meant that, as I was performing the stroke, the cue stick came past the side of the cue ball, touching it ever so slightly, and the cue ball moved sideways no more than three inches. Maybe just maybe there was a little forward motion to the sideways motion, but definitely not the kind of forward motion you'd get if the ball was/were hit with the cue tip - the tip of the cue - at the end of it - where you put the chalk...

Does this change anyone's answer?

And, the Texas Express rules are found at http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml. (http://www.texasexpress.com/main/rules.htm>http://www.texasexpress.com/main/rules.htm</a>)

Thanks again!
<hr></blockquote>

in 9-ball, by bca, the game does not start till the cue tip contacts the cue ball. i was wrong when i said that if it moves it's a foul. never thought about hitting it with the side of the shaft.

no foul.

on the head string issue, the 2001 book has the game starting when the c.b. crosses the head string but the new 2002 book changes it to "cue ball struck by cue". "struck" is intended to mean with a forward stroking motion. they cleverly put this under the title "end of game". that's where i'd put the rule on start of game. wouldn't you?

dan

08-15-2002, 03:32 PM
I thought it was a foul to move the cue ball or the lowest numbered ball, by any means or in any way, once you are in the act of shooting. Below is a rule I copied from the Texas Express rules from the link given in one of the messages in this thread. I thought this was also one of the general rules of pool that would apply.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::
6.0-12 TOUCHING THE CUE BALL

TOUCHING BY ANY MEANS OR CAUSING THE CUE BALL TO HAVE ANY MOVEMENT (OTHER THAN A LEGALLY STRUCK SHOT) IS A FOUL. IF A FOUL OCCURS, THE OPPONENT RECEIVES CUE BALL IN HAND.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::

Rod
08-15-2002, 03:46 PM
Quote SPetty,The question is... According to the BCA rulebook that someone pulled out after the fact (even though we're playing Texas Express)


Thanks for the responses. Man, I tried so hard to be complete and concise, yet again failed so miserably... End"

Susan you didn't fail, I should have paid more attention to your first post. 9 ball is the only game played using TE rules. First of all those with BCA rule books might as well set them aside. BCA rules do not apply. If the CB stayed behind the line, base of the ball, then it would be legal. If during the whiff as you stated, I find amusing, laughing with you here, you hit the c/b more than once, and it is definately possible, then it should a foul. You could catch it with the edge of the tip and then the shaft. Now that might seem far fetched, but the rule does not give an exclusive to just the tip. It should reference the tip only if that is their intent. I've seen this happen many times. If a ref isn't present, which is the case, I doubt it would ever be called.

Just found the rule, 5.0-4 DOUBLE HIT DEFINITION

A DOUBLE HIT OCCURS WHEN THE ACTION OF SHOOTING CAUSES THE CUE BALL TO BE STRUCK TWICE (OR MORE) BY THE CUE TIP DURING A SINGLE SHOT. A DOUBLE HIT IS A BALL IN HAND FOUL. NOTE: A DOUBLE HIT GENERALLY IS CAUSED BY THE CUE BALL REBOUNDING OFF THE OBJECT BALL BEING STRUCK RESULTING IN THE CUE BALL HITTING THE CUE STICK TIP (OR FERRULE OR SHAFT) MORE THAN ONCE.

TomBrooklyn
08-15-2002, 03:53 PM
In other words, you intended to hit the cue ball with the tip, but you think you hit it with the shaft, and the cue ball moved a few inches, mainly sideways, and did not cross the headstring. Is that correct?

SPetty
08-16-2002, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> In other words, you intended to hit the cue ball with the tip, but you think you hit it with the shaft, and the cue ball moved a few inches, mainly sideways, and did not cross the headstring. Is that correct? <hr></blockquote>Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to explain.

bluewolf
08-16-2002, 06:48 AM
I feel it is very important to me to know the rules. When i started playing pool, I committed fouls because I did not know the rules. And it is really bad when people, i mean experienced people are trying to tell you the rules and they are wishy washy and say different things

bluewolf

stickman
08-16-2002, 07:15 AM
APA rules are different than either of these. Their rules appear to be much more forgiving. You can miscue in APA, the cueball can move across the line, and if you are able to catch it before it contacts the rack, it is no foul. Even if you don't manage to catch it, you get a rerack, if it is not a legal break. Actually, the game doesn't begin until the cueball contacts the rack. I have actually done this in APA play. Perhaps they think the embarrassment is penalty enough. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif