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pooltchr
12-14-2009, 04:26 PM
Pirates hijack a merchant ship, and our US Navy SEALS save the day by putting bullets through their heads. They were hailed as heros, as well they should be!

Terrorists kill and hang the bodies of civilian security forces, and our US Navy SEALS are facing court martial for giving him a bloody lip.

These are Navy Freakin' SEALS!!!! Our most elite, well trained fighting forces. People who put their lives on the line on a regular basis, often doing jobs that nobody else is willing, or able to do. They deal with the worst of the scum of the earth, and are charged with stopping them from their illegal, and frequently deadly activities. Navy SEALS who fight for OUR freedom!

Where is the outrage? How about it. All you people who claim you support our troops. Where is your outrage?

Why are you more concerned about Tiger Woods, than you are about these real heros, getting railroaded by a government that is too concerned about the rights of terrorists?

Where exactly are your <u>real</u> priorities???????

Is this the change we should believe in?????

Steve

llotter
12-15-2009, 07:11 AM
After eight years of the Republikooks destroying our country, you can rest assured that now we are getting on the right course as fast as humanly possible. Relax and stop worrying, the Democrats are now in charge and everything will be alright very soon. Justice will be served as the SEALS get their day in court and our enemies will see clearly how progressive citizens keep a tight leash on those in power. At last we are living the dream where even the lowest among us cannot escape the Rule of Law.

Please, Steve, do not join in the party-of-NO, the party of deniers, the party determined to bring down the best chance to save America in generations. Obviously you don't understand that there is a greater good at staake here and you need to keep your eye on the big picture and not on the small details.

Chilled
12-15-2009, 07:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pirates hijack a merchant ship, and our US Navy SEALS save the day by putting bullets through their heads. They were hailed as heros, as well they should be!

Terrorists kill and hang the bodies of civilian security forces, and our US Navy SEALS are facing court martial for giving him a bloody lip.

These are Navy Freakin' SEALS!!!! Our most elite, well trained fighting forces. People who put their lives on the line on a regular basis, often doing jobs that nobody else is willing, or able to do. They deal with the worst of the scum of the earth, and are charged with stopping them from their illegal, and frequently deadly activities. Navy SEALS who fight for OUR freedom!

Where is the outrage? How about it. All you people who claim you support our troops. Where is your outrage?

Why are you more concerned about Tiger Woods, than you are about these real heros, getting railroaded by a government that is too concerned about the rights of terrorists?

Where exactly are your <u>real</u> priorities???????

Is this the change we should believe in?????

Steve </div></div>

It's possible that prior to letting loose their outrage some people, unlike you, whether they are customarily supporters of troops or not, prefer to wait to find out more facts about exactly what the allegations of assault, dereliction of duty, giving false official statements and impeding an investigation are all about.

Even the accused seals themsleves or their defence haven't yet seen any of the evidence against them so it seems there's a lot of guessing and presumption going on.

Neither the most rabid supporters of troops nor the most rabid anti-military camps can possibly know enough about this to reasonably take any stubbornly unchangeable stance yet, especially when the military have specifically cautioned that there is a fuller story which will come out at the court martial.

Of course we already know that both staunchly anti-Obama and staunchly pro-Obama camps looking for wider political arguments usually don't care to wait for full facts in any given set of individual circumstances prior to connecting issues about troops or anything else to political camps in order to parade their own side's particular mantras or their perceptions of the other side's failures. Usually, the more emotional the presentation the better, hence the emphasis that the prisoner concerned was alleged to have been involved in what was a particularly horrific 2004 incident.

Clearly you are staunchly anti-Obama and have reached the personal opinion that you somehow already know enough about this case to commence using it politically in an anti-Obama context. It is of course your inalienable right to do that. However you do not have any right or justification to assume that everyone who is not yet willing to loudly proclaim the same conclusions as you is necessarily anti-seals, anti-military in general or pro-Obama.

You are very outraged and don't care who knows it. Bravo! However all that makes you right now is someone who is outraged, no less no more. It doesn't mean that at this juncture you have one cent's worth of any better information about what went down than anyone else in the general public and it doesn't make you any more patriotic than someone who will only express their outrage after they have some fuller facts regarding what it's all about.

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 07:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chilled</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pirates hijack a merchant ship, and our US Navy SEALS save the day by putting bullets through their heads. They were hailed as heros, as well they should be!

Terrorists kill and hang the bodies of civilian security forces, and our US Navy SEALS are facing court martial for giving him a bloody lip.

These are Navy Freakin' SEALS!!!! Our most elite, well trained fighting forces. People who put their lives on the line on a regular basis, often doing jobs that nobody else is willing, or able to do. They deal with the worst of the scum of the earth, and are charged with stopping them from their illegal, and frequently deadly activities. Navy SEALS who fight for OUR freedom!

Where is the outrage? How about it. All you people who claim you support our troops. Where is your outrage?

Why are you more concerned about Tiger Woods, than you are about these real heros, getting railroaded by a government that is too concerned about the rights of terrorists?

Where exactly are your <u>real</u> priorities???????

Is this the change we should believe in?????

Steve </div></div>

It's possible that prior to letting loose their outrage some people, unlike you, whether they are customarily supporters of troops or not, prefer to wait to find out more facts about exactly what the allegations of assault, dereliction of duty, giving false official statements and impeding an investigation are all about.

Even the accused seals themsleves or their defence haven't yet seen any of the evidence against them so it seems there's a lot of guessing and presumption going on.

Neither the most rabid supporters of troops nor the most rabid anti-military camps can possibly know enough about this to reasonably take any stubbornly unchangeable stance yet, especially when the military have specifically cautioned that there is a fuller story which will come out at the court martial.

Of course we already know that both staunchly anti-Obama and staunchly pro-Obama camps looking for wider political arguments usually don't care to wait for full facts in any given set of individual circumstances prior to connecting issues about troops or anything else to political camps in order to parade their own side's particular mantras or their perceptions of the other side's failures. Usually, the more emotional the presentation the better, hence the emphasis that the prisoner concerned was alleged to have been involved in what was a particularly horrific 2004 incident.

Clearly you are staunchly anti-Obama and have reached the opinion that you personlly already know enough about this case to already commence using it politically in an anti-Obama context. It is of course your inalienable right to do that. However you do not have any right or justification to assume that everyone who is not yet willing to loudly proclaim the same conclusions as you is necessarily anti-seals, anti-military in general or pro-Obama.

You are very outraged and don't care who knows it. Bravo! However all that makes you right now is someone who is outraged, no less no more. It doesn't mean that at this juncture you have one cent's worth of any better information about what went down than anyone else in the general public and it doesn't make you any more patriotic than someone who will only express their outrage after they have some fuller facts regarding what it's all about.




</div></div>


<span style="color: #000066">Excellent post, sir.

G. </span>

Chopstick
12-15-2009, 08:17 AM
It's all about PC now days. The Navy doesn't want to take a chance of getting busted by the Pelosifiles for doing nothing.

Congress sent a letter the the Seals commander asking him to drop the court martial. 40 Congressman signed it. Guess how many democrats signed it. I'll give you a hint. It was the same number of democrats who voted in favor of granting civil rights to blacks after the civil war.

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 08:17 AM
I guess you have never had the opportunity to work with, or be a part of this elite group of real US heros. These men are known to "get the job done" regardless of the odds against them, or the danger they face in doing their job.

War is ugly. But when someone kills our civilians, and strings up the bodies for public display, you are right. I don't need to know any more. These guys got the terrorist, and if all he ended up with was a busted lip, I consider him lucky.

All of our military people are <u>fighting</u> a war. By definition, fighting involves inflicting damage on the enemy. For them to even be facing a court martial for doing their job should piss off every true American patriot. If we allow this to happen, what will it do to our fighting forces? Do you think they will have to stop in the future and wonder if the action they are about to take against the enemy might result in corporal punishment? And while they are deciding, do you think our enemy would have the same questions if the roles were reversed.

There is absolutely no reasonable defense of the course of action being taken against these heros. I know the left is very defensive over this administration, but even the left should recognize this is not a left or right issue. It cuts to the very heart of our ability to defend ourselves as a nation.

You don't ask someone to protect you, and then punish them for how they do it. If someone has demonstrated their willingness to hurt or kill our people, they have no expectation that they are protected from any action that might be taken against them.

The fact that this guy is even still alive tells me that our SEALS demonstrated more restraint and self control than he did!

Read this summary. The only proof of any "abuse" was a cut lip!

http://www.khurak.net/navy-seals-court-martial-005617/

Steve

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 08:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[

<span style="color: #000066">Excellent post, sir.

G. </span> </div></div>

I understand you would support anyone who would disagree with anything I might post, so I am not surprised at this comment. But let me ask you a simple question.

Should our military people face a court martial for busting the lip of a terrorist who has vowed to fight our country, and has already demonstrated the willingness to kill US civilians????

A simple yes or no will do.

Steve

Chilled
12-15-2009, 09:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess you have never had the opportunity to work with, or be a part of this elite group of real US heros. These men are known to "get the job done" regardless of the odds against them, or the danger they face in doing their job.

War is ugly. But when someone kills our civilians, and strings up the bodies for public display, you are right. I don't need to know any more. These guys got the terrorist, and if all he ended up with was a busted lip, I consider him lucky.

All of our military people are <u>fighting</u> a war. By definition, fighting involves inflicting damage on the enemy. For them to even be facing a court martial for doing their job should piss off every true American patriot. If we allow this to happen, what will it do to our fighting forces? Do you think they will have to stop in the future and wonder if the action they are about to take against the enemy might result in corporal punishment? And while they are deciding, do you think our enemy would have the same questions if the roles were reversed.

There is absolutely no reasonable defense of the course of action being taken against these heros. I know the left is very defensive over this administration, but even the left should recognize this is not a left or right issue. It cuts to the very heart of our ability to defend ourselves as a nation.

You don't ask someone to protect you, and then punish them for how they do it. If someone has demonstrated their willingness to hurt or kill our people, they have no expectation that they are protected from any action that might be taken against them.

The fact that this guy is even still alive tells me that our SEALS demonstrated more restraint and self control than he did!

Read this summary. The only proof of any "abuse" was a cut lip!

http://www.khurak.net/navy-seals-court-martial-005617/

Steve </div></div>

That's all a very pretty and conveniently emotional picture to paint and there's nothing much to disgaree with in principle, but it doesn't change anything as regards the heart of what I posted.

You haven't a clue what the full details of the circumstances were and it's clear from your own link that neither does the person who wrote the content of it nor anyone else, including me. I'm prepared to wait to find out, you're not.

I repeat...the seals themselves and their own legal representatives still don't know what is going to be presented as evidence re the nature and extent of what they are alleged to have done....so how on earth would you know?

I hate being goaded into doing something similar to what I have remarked upon you doing but I will go as far as to say that if these seals are being charged for only bloodying someone's lip I'll eat a full set of pool balls washed down with petrol.

It may well transpire to be the case that any physical assault was much worse and/or that the military are more concerned about lying and cover-ups. Who knows? I don't. Personally, I can't imagine much that they could do to a piece of scum like that particular prisoner that would annoy me personally....but I'd still rather wait for the facts before expressing support for whatever it is they have done rather than pretend or imply that I already know that they are simply being used as political pawns on the basis of a bloody lip.

In view of your related comment I will add that as it happens I have had the pleasure of working with personnel who have extensive special forces experience and have maximum respect for what they do. I have not said a word against them. I'm referring to the action of opportunist bandwagon cheerleaders trying to make political capital out of them, whether on an irrelevant obscure pool site or in the corridors of power.....and trying to sell the notion that this makes the cheerleaders great patriots. It doesn't, it just makes them cheap salesmen of shallow political sniping.

S0Noma
12-15-2009, 10:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where is the outrage? How about it. All you people who claim you support our troops. Where is your outrage?

Why are you more concerned about Tiger Woods, than you are about these real heros, getting railroaded by a government that is too concerned about the rights of terrorists?

Where exactly are your <u>real</u> priorities???????

Is this the change we should believe in?????

Steve </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">McCabe, 24, is charged with assault. All three men also are charged with dereliction of duty, accused of failing to safeguard the detainee, and with lying to investigators, according to charge sheets. Huertas also is charged with impeding an investigation for allegedly trying to influence the testimony of a witness.

Puckett said the charges stem from an alleged "punch in the gut" after the SEALs captured the Iraqi in early September. Puckett said the men are not guilty, and that he also has been bombarded with calls and e-mails from people who say that even if the detainee was punched, it's "a minor affront" compared to what he is suspected of doing.

Army Lt. Col. Holly Silkman, a spokeswoman for the military's Special Operations Command Center, urged the public to withhold judgment until the evidence is heard.

"This is much more involved than the defense would lead you to believe," Silkman said. </span>

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13940206

So... let me get this straight, kicking a man when he's down and then lying about it afterward is heroic and totally acceptable as long as it's done by Navy Seals?

That doesn't sound anything like the American ideals that I cherish.

It might be useful for you to revisit the definition of 'heroism'. In my book, capturing a SUSPECTED terrorist of this magnitude is absolutely heroic. Beating him up once he was in custody and helpless and then lying about it when questioned is not.

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 10:30 AM
The right will probably be on this guy's side, too, since he is such a Christian. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a separate sworn statement, the former US marine who worked for Blackwater in Iraq alleges that he has "learned from my Blackwater colleagues and former colleagues that one or more persons who have provided information, or who were planning to provide information about Erik Prince and Blackwater have been killed in suspicious circumstances." Identified as "John Doe #1," he says he "joined Blackwater and deployed to Iraq to guard State Department and other American government personnel." It is not clear if Doe #1 is still working with the company as he states he is "scheduled to deploy in the immediate future to Iraq." Like Doe #2, he states that he fears "violence" against him for "submitting this Declaration." No further details on the alleged murder(s) are provided.

"Mr. Prince feared, and continues to fear, that the federal authorities will detect and prosecute his various criminal deeds," states Doe #2. "On more than one occasion, Mr. Prince and his top managers gave orders to destroy emails and other documents. Many incriminating videotapes, documents and emails have been shredded and destroyed."

The Nation cannot independently verify the identities of the two individuals, their roles at Blackwater or what motivated them to provide sworn testimony in these civil cases. Both individuals state that they have previously cooperated with federal prosecutors conducting a criminal inquiry into Blackwater.

"It's a pending investigation, so we cannot comment on any matters in front of a Grand Jury or if a Grand Jury even exists on these matters," John Roth, the spokesperson for the US Attorney's office in the District of Columbia, told The Nation. "It would be a crime if we did that." Asked specifically about whether there is a criminal investigation into Prince regarding the murder allegations and other charges, Roth said: "We would not be able to comment on what we are or are not doing in regards to any possible investigation involving an uncharged individual."

The Nation repeatedly attempted to contact spokespeople for Prince or his companies at numerous email addresses and telephone numbers. When a company representative was reached by phone and asked to comment, she said, "Unfortunately no one can help you in that area." The representative then said that she would pass along The Nation's request. As this article goes to press, no company representative has responded further to The Nation.

Doe #2 states in the declaration that he has also provided the information contained in his statement "in grand jury proceedings convened by the United States Department of Justice." Federal prosecutors convened a grand jury in the aftermath of the September 16, 2007, Nisour Square shootings in Baghdad, which left seventeen Iraqis dead. Five Blackwater employees are awaiting trial on several manslaughter charges and a sixth, Jeremy Ridgeway, has already pleaded guilty to manslaughter and attempting to commit manslaughter and is cooperating with prosecutors. It is not clear whether Doe #2 testified in front of the Nisour Square grand jury or in front of a separate grand jury.

The two declarations are each five pages long and contain a series of devastating allegations concerning Erik Prince and his network of companies, which now operate under the banner of Xe Services LLC. Among those leveled by Doe #2 is that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe":


To that end, Mr. Prince intentionally deployed to Iraq certain men who shared his vision of Christian supremacy, knowing and wanting these men to take every available opportunity to murder Iraqis. Many of these men used call signs based on the Knights of the Templar, the warriors who fought the Crusades.


Mr. Prince operated his companies in a manner that encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life. For example, Mr. Prince's executives would openly speak about going over to Iraq to "lay Hajiis out on cardboard." Going to Iraq to shoot and kill Iraqis was viewed as a sport or game. Mr. Prince's employees openly and consistently used racist and derogatory terms for Iraqis and other Arabs, such as "ragheads" or "hajiis."

Among the additional allegations made by Doe #1 is that "Blackwater was smuggling weapons into Iraq." He states that he personally witnessed weapons being "pulled out" from dog food bags. Doe #2 alleges that "Prince and his employees arranged for the weapons to be polywrapped and smuggled into Iraq on Mr. Prince's private planes, which operated under the name Presidential Airlines," adding that Prince "generated substantial revenues from participating in the illegal arms trade."

Doe #2 states: "Using his various companies, [Prince] procured and distributed various weapons, including unlawful weapons such as sawed off semi-automatic machine guns with silencers, through unlawful channels of distribution." Blackwater "was not abiding by the terms of the contract with the State Department and was deceiving the State Department," according to Doe #1.

This is not the first time an allegation has surfaced that Blackwater used dog food bags to smuggle weapons into Iraq. ABC News's Brian Ross reported in November 2008 that a "federal grand jury in North Carolina is investigating allegations the controversial private security firm Blackwater illegally shipped assault weapons and silencers to Iraq, hidden in large sacks of dog food." Another former Blackwater employee has also confirmed this information to The Nation.

Both individuals allege that Prince and Blackwater deployed individuals to Iraq who, in the words of Doe #1, "were not properly vetted and cleared by the State Department." Doe #2 adds that "Prince ignored the advice and pleas from certain employees, who sought to stop the unnecessary killing of innocent Iraqis." Doe #2 further states that some Blackwater officials overseas refused to deploy "unfit men" and sent them back to the US. Among the reasons cited by Doe #2 were "the men making statements about wanting to deploy to Iraq to 'kill ragheads' or achieve 'kills' or 'body counts,'" as well as "excessive drinking" and "steroid use." However, when the men returned to the US, according to Doe #2, "Prince and his executives would send them back to be deployed in Iraq with an express instruction to the concerned employees located overseas that they needed to 'stop costing the company money.'"

Doe #2 also says Prince "repeatedly ignored the assessments done by mental health professionals, and instead terminated those mental health professionals who were not willing to endorse deployments of unfit men." He says Prince and then-company president Gary Jackson "hid from Department of State the fact that they were deploying men to Iraq over the objections of mental health professionals and security professionals in the field," saying they "knew the men being deployed were not suitable candidates for carrying lethal weaponry, but did not care because deployments meant more money."

Doe #1 states that "Blackwater knew that certain of its personnel intentionally used excessive and unjustified deadly force, and in some instances used unauthorized weapons, to kill or seriously injure innocent Iraqi civilians." He concludes, "Blackwater did nothing to stop this misconduct." Doe #1 states that he "personally observed multiple incidents of Blackwater personnel intentionally using unnecessary, excessive and unjustified deadly force." He then cites several specific examples of Blackwater personnel firing at civilians, killing or "seriously" wounding them, and then failing to report the incidents to the State Department.

Doe #1 also alleges that "all of these incidents of excessive force were initially videotaped and voice recorded," but that "Immediately after the day concluded, we would watch the video in a session called a 'hot wash.' Immediately after the hotwashing, the video was erased to prevent anyone other than Blackwater personnel seeing what had actually occurred." Blackwater, he says, "did not provide the video to the State Department."

Doe #2 expands on the issue of unconventional weapons, alleging Prince "made available to his employees in Iraq various weapons not authorized by the United States contracting authorities, such as hand grenades and hand grenade launchers. Mr. Prince's employees repeatedly used this illegal weaponry in Iraq, unnecessarily killing scores of innocent Iraqis." Specifically, he alleges that Prince "obtained illegal ammunition from an American company called LeMas. This company sold ammunition designed to explode after penetrating within the human body. Mr. Prince's employees repeatedly used this illegal ammunition in Iraq to inflict maximum damage on Iraqis."

Blackwater has gone through an intricate rebranding process in the twelve years it has been in business, changing its name and logo several times. Prince also has created more than a dozen affiliate companies, some of which are registered offshore and whose operations are shrouded in secrecy. According to Doe #2, "Prince created and operated this web of companies in order to obscure wrongdoing, fraud and other crimes."

"For example, Mr. Prince transferred funds from one company (Blackwater) to another (Greystone) whenever necessary to avoid detection of his money laundering and tax evasion schemes." He added: "Mr. Prince contributed his personal wealth to fund the operations of the Prince companies whenever he deemed such funding necessary. Likewise, Mr. Prince took funds out of the Prince companies and placed the funds in his personal accounts at will."

Briefed on the substance of these allegations by The Nation, Congressman Dennis Kucinich replied, "If these allegations are true, Blackwater has been a criminal enterprise defrauding taxpayers and murdering innocent civilians." Kucinich is on the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform and has been investigating Prince and Blackwater since 2004.

"Blackwater is a law unto itself, both internationally and domestically. The question is why they operated with impunity. In addition to Blackwater, we should be questioning their patrons in the previous administration who funded and employed this organization. Blackwater wouldn't exist without federal patronage; these allegations should be thoroughly investigated," Kucinich said.

A hearing before Judge Ellis in the civil cases against Blackwater is scheduled for August 7.

</div></div>

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 10:52 AM
We give Navy SEALs a job to do.
We train them to do that job with whatever means necessary, including the use of deadly force.
Then we punish them for doing that job.

Like I said, the SOB is still alive, so I think they showed plenty of restraint.

Ignore the whole think if you want. After all, there are much more important things to be concerned about. Tiger and his bimbos are still in the news.

As for me, I will continue to support our military forces and their efforts to do their job.

Steve

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 11:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We give Navy SEALs a job to do.
We train them to do that job with whatever means necessary, including the use of deadly force.
Then we punish them for doing that job.

Like I said, the SOB is still alive, so I think they showed plenty of restraint.

Ignore the whole think if you want. After all, there are much more important things to be concerned about. Tiger and his bimbos are still in the news.

As for me, I will continue to support our military forces and their efforts to do their job.

Steve </div></div>

That's good, because you ignored their plight completely while Bush was lying them into this Iraq war, ignored his failure to provide them decent equipment to fight it, decent barracks to live in, decent food and water to drink, and allowed his cronies to execute them in their showers, while they had their legs and arms blown off without armored Humvees. You defended the Bush Administration throughout! Even voted for him the second time, even after it was clear, that he did not provide our troops with decent health care, and voted for Republicans, who refused to sign legislation to give them more money when they came home!

You're a joke. You present yourself as some kind of great protector for the military, and ignore completely the military industrial complex which exploits their very lives, in order to line their pockets with gold.

What a crock!



What a hypocrite!

Disgusting!

DickLeonard
12-15-2009, 11:24 AM
Gayle way to Go Girl. Their eyes are still closed. Love Dick

LWW
12-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Dear heart, the idea of threads is to post something on the topic of the OP.

If you wish to start yet another rant thread, the capability is certainly there for you to do so.

LWW

S0Noma
12-15-2009, 11:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We give Navy SEALs a job to do.
We train them to do that job with whatever means necessary, including the use of deadly force.
Then we punish them for doing that job.

<span style="color: #000099">Once again you dash past the fine line between 'doing their job' and 'abusing their authority'. Catching the suspected terrorist was 'doing their job' - harming him while he was in their custody and then lying about it afterward is not.

Just as many people could not differentiate between Pres. Clinton getting a 'harmless blowjob' and then lying about it to the American public - you are conflating the heroic reputation of the Navy Seals with the right to harm prisoners in their custody with impunity.
</span>

Like I said, the SOB is still alive, so I think they showed plenty of restraint.

<span style="color: #000099">Dereliction of duty is not measured in terms of degrees of restraint - 'plenty' or otherwise. No matter how you want to paint it the Seals in this case broke the rules of proper military conduct once they had the man in their custody. Lying about what happened to their superiors in an effort to cover up what happened is not acceptable behavior for any soldier much less the best of the best.</span>

Ignore the whole think if you want. After all, there are much more important things to be concerned about. Tiger and his bimbos are still in the news.

As for me, I will continue to support our military forces and their efforts to do their job.

<span style="color: #000099">Sorry, you may not grab the American flag, wrap yourself up in it and run off as if it belonged only to you and people who agree with you. I am an American and proud of it. I expect my country to conduct itself according to the standards and ideals that I was raised to believe in.

You are not welcome to pretend that 'supporting American military forces by permitting them to violate rules of ethical conduct' is the definition of what it means to be a 'real American'. I and many more like me are REAL AMERICANS too. Torturing/abusing helpless prisoners of war is neither acceptable nor is it the American way, no matter how you want to slice it.</span>

</div></div>

LWW
12-15-2009, 11:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: S0Noma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[color:#000099]Once again you dash past the fine line between 'doing their job' and 'abusing their authority'. Catching the suspected terrorist was 'doing their job' - harming him while he was in their custody and then lying about it afterward is not.</div></div>

You lost all credibility right there.

To begin with, I don't give them a pass if they did this.

The difference between us is that you make a rush to judgement that if a terrorist thug says they did this then you are convinced that they did.

I take the approach that the word of a thug terrorist means nothing and they are entitled to their day in court.

Want to lay a wager that this is another moonbat smear job similar to the Haditha trials and then when it comes down to it the evidence is non existent?

What is wrong with America is that our educational system has turned out a generation of people who believe instinctively that America is wrong and the terrorists are right.

LWW

Chilled
12-15-2009, 11:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We give Navy SEALs a job to do.
We train them to do that job with whatever means necessary, including the use of deadly force.
Then we punish them for doing that job.

Like I said, the SOB is still alive, so I think they showed plenty of restraint.

Ignore the whole think if you want. After all, there are much more important things to be concerned about. Tiger and his bimbos are still in the news.

As for me, I will continue to support our military forces and their efforts to do their job.

Steve </div></div>

You still haven't got that part have you.....you are no more a supporter of the military than I am.

If whatever these guys did after this prisoner was in their custody was what they were trained and authorised to do they have nothing to fear. I know for sure they are not trained to lie to investigators or to use threats to colleagues for the purpose of concocting cover up stories, no matter how innocuous their original 'offence' might have been and no matter how distasteful and unfair it might seem to you or me that a piece of scum like this prisoner even has any rights in the first place.

If what they did was well beyond what they were trained and authorised to do after he was in custody they might be subject to some sanctions after the military procedures are complete.

Me recognising that to be the situation doesn't mean that I would not feel pissed off at any punishment meted out to them nor does it merit you accusing me in a roundabout way of being more interested in Tiger Woods than I am in more serious issues nor of me not supporting the military.

I'll return the compliment. I think it's quite possible that you're far more interested in the opportunity for criticising a Govt and President you didn't vote for than you are in supporting seals.

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 11:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chilled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
I'll return the compliment. I think it's quite possible that you're far more interested in the opportunity for criticising a Govt and President you didn't vote for than you are in supporting seals.



</div></div>

To the best of my knowledge, Obama had nothing to do with bringing about this court martial, so I don't blame him. And the original post was not directed at anyone in particular, but in our society in general. We have military heros being railroaded, and the lead story on the news every evening is who is the latest slut to come forward and out herself as a Tiger bimbo.

I believe the media gives us mind candy to keep us from focusing on the important things that are happening to us every day. The bimbos are just mind candy.

Steve

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 12:02 PM
Typical Steve Jennings misogynistic rant.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 12:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typical Steve Jennings misogynistic rant.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Go drink some more kool-ade!

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. And whenever that happens, you skip the facts, and go directly to attacking the poster. Which probably explains why you are in attack mode so often...you rarely know what you are talking about.


Steve

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 12:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typical Steve Jennings misogynistic rant.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Go drink some more kool-ade!

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. And whenever that happens, you skip the facts, and go directly to attacking the poster. Which probably explains why you are in attack mode so often...you rarely know what you are talking about.


Steve </div></div>



<span style="color: #000066">Oh sorry.... </span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have military heros being railroaded, and the lead story on the news every evening is who is the latest slut to come forward and out herself as a Tiger bimbo.

I believe the media gives us mind candy to keep us from focusing on the important things that are happening to us every day. The bimbos are just mind candy.

Steve </div></div>


<span style="color: #000066">Typical Steve Jennings, OFF THE SUBJECT, hypocritical, RW misogynistic RANT! </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

S0Noma
12-15-2009, 12:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You lost all credibility right there.
<span style="color: #000099">
This from a man who consistently lies, smears, and ducks for cover like a sniveling coward whenever his argument is found to be unsupportable? You're the one without credibility. Go pi$$ in someone else's ear and tell them it's raining. Your lame BS and lack of argumentation skills have long since ceased to amuse me.</span>


The difference between us is that you make a rush to judgement that if a terrorist thug says they did this then you are convinced that they did.

<span style="color: #000099">Okie dokie, here we go again. A quick check of Google News search shows a preponderance of conservative sites are declaring the innocence of the Seals in advance of a trial. It is they who are rushing to judgment.

Unless you are blind as well as retarded you should have seen my post above including this linked info:

McCabe, 24, is charged with assault. All three men also are charged with dereliction of duty, accused of failing to safeguard the detainee, and with lying to investigators, according to charge sheets. Huertas also is charged with impeding an investigation for allegedly trying to influence the testimony of a witness.

Army Lt. Col. Holly Silkman, a spokeswoman for the military's Special Operations Command Center, urged the public to withhold judgment until the evidence is heard.

"This is much more involved than the defense would lead you to believe," Silkman said.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13940206

Typical of right wing conservatives with a political axe to grind the 'rush to judgment' in this case falls in their/your court not mine. Typical of your twisted style of argumentation it's not the conservatives who are guilty of declaring innocence prior to a trial but instead it's anyone who disagrees with them.

Hogwash.</span>


I take the approach that the word of a thug terrorist means nothing and they are entitled to their day in court.

<span style="color: #000099">You take the position that the charges leveled against these men stem solely from the word of a prisoner. You're assuming that the superior officers investigating this case are incapable of ascertaining the nature of the alleged offenses and are, in fact, a bunch of simpletons being jerked around by the lies of a known terrorist. That's fine, I expect no less from a man like yourself who would have trouble thinking himself out of a wet paper bag.</span>

What is wrong with America is that our educational system has turned out a generation of people who believe instinctively that America is wrong and the terrorists are right.

<span style="color: #000099">What is wrong with America is that our system has turned out a generation of people like yourself who believe that we have the right to behave like the very people we allege to despise as long as we do it under color of war.</span>

</div></div>

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 12:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typical Steve Jennings misogynistic rant.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Go drink some more kool-ade!

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. And whenever that happens, you skip the facts, and go directly to attacking the poster. Which probably explains why you are in attack mode so often...you rarely know what you are talking about.


Steve </div></div>



<span style="color: #000066">Oh sorry.... </span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have military heros being railroaded, and the lead story on the news every evening is who is the latest slut to come forward and out herself as a Tiger bimbo.

I believe the media gives us mind candy to keep us from focusing on the important things that are happening to us every day. The bimbos are just mind candy.

Steve </div></div>


<span style="color: #000066">Typical Steve Jennings, OFF THE SUBJECT, hypocritical, RW misogynistic RANT! </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </div></div>

If you read the original post, you would know that was precisely what the topic was...the fact that we are focused on the wrong things.

You're losing it.

Steve

Chilled
12-15-2009, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chilled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
I'll return the compliment. I think it's quite possible that you're far more interested in the opportunity for criticising a Govt and President you didn't vote for than you are in supporting seals.



</div></div>

To the best of my knowledge, Obama had nothing to do with bringing about this court martial, so I don't blame him. And the original post was not directed at anyone in particular, but in our society in general. We have military heros being railroaded, and the lead story on the news every evening is who is the latest slut to come forward and out herself as a Tiger bimbo.

I believe the media gives us mind candy to keep us from focusing on the important things that are happening to us every day. The bimbos are just mind candy.

Steve </div></div>

Well for someone who had no intention of implying that Obama (or the policies of his administration?) had something to do with the military's decision to pursue charges you sure did a good job of giving the opposite impression with you remark near the end of your opening post "Is this the change we can believe in?".

My reference to Tiger Woods above was not in response to what you said in the opening post which I agree was not directed at anyone in particular, it was in response to your Tiger Woods remarks in a later post which was addressed to me and replying to a quote of a post from me. It is reasonable to have assumed they were intended for me.

I agree with your closing remarks about the media, well large chunks of the media in any case.

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 12:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typical Steve Jennings misogynistic rant.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Go drink some more kool-ade!

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. And whenever that happens, you skip the facts, and go directly to attacking the poster. Which probably explains why you are in attack mode so often...you rarely know what you are talking about.


Steve </div></div>



<span style="color: #000066">Oh sorry.... </span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have military heros being railroaded, and the lead story on the news every evening is who is the latest slut to come forward and out herself as a Tiger bimbo.

I believe the media gives us mind candy to keep us from focusing on the important things that are happening to us every day. The bimbos are just mind candy.

Steve </div></div>


<span style="color: #000066">Typical Steve Jennings, OFF THE SUBJECT, hypocritical, RW misogynistic RANT! </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </div></div>

If you read the original post, you would know that was precisely what the topic was...the fact that we are focused on the wrong things.

You're losing it.

Steve </div></div>



<span style="color: #000066">Like I said, typical (ugly) Steve Jennings, off the subject, misogynistic RW rant. </span>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 01:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[

<span style="color: #000066">Like I said, typical (ugly) Steve Jennings, off the subject, misogynistic RW rant. </span>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

Alright, what specifically do you find in this post that you would classify as misogynistic?

Steve

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 02:23 PM
You're calling other women sluts and bimbos?

Sounds to me like Tiger Woods is the slut in this story. He's the guy who was married. He's the guy who carved out this big hypocritical Bs lie about "My family always comes first" so he could make money on sponsoring products, while all along, he's been screwing around on his wife with everything that wiggles in fron of his nose.

At least these women were pretending to be something they weren't. They were selling sex. Happens every day, all over the world. I don't hear you calling Tiger Woods a slut???? He gets a bye? Why is that?

I knew a man once, who used to say, all salesmen are whores. Of course, he meant salesmen, and saleswomen, as well. Everyone has their own ideas about right and wrong. We all don't agree on everything. To each his own.

So, everything is subjective. The problem comes when certain groups, usually religious groups, try to force their values and beliefs upon others.

That is what the religious right does. That's why I don't vote for Republicans. They seek to dictate according to their personal religious beliefs. That is not what this country was founded upon, in fact, that is the antithesis of what this country was founded upon.

What is a bimbo? What is a slut? What is a bubba? I have my definitions, you have yours, I'd assume they are quite different. However, I don't make a distinction between men, and women, when it comes to screwing around on ones spouse. It's wrong...it's cheating, it's about lying to the one who is on your side. It's self destructive, and it hurts the whole family. IMO, tiger Woods thought he was special, and could do whatever he liked, he was above keeping commitments. I really hate that kind of thinking. I hated it when it came out of George Bush's mouth, and Dick cheney's mouth, and it's the same damn thing, when people think they are above the rules, above the agreements, above the laws. That is what destroys societies.

g.

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 02:32 PM
They are sluts and bimbos. And so is he.

One of them was on tv the other morning just about in tears over how the worst thing was putting her son through all this embarassment. Yet she came forward on her own, put herself on the Today show in front of the world to cry about it. WTF??? If she really wanted to protect her kid, she would never have been with a married man in the first place, and she certainly wouldn't have come out in public and admitted it. (Or did Tiger out all of his girls?)

Tiger is not innocent. But neither are any of these women. They all made the decision to sleep with a guy who no only wasn't their husband, but was someone else's. What does that make them? sluts or bimbos?

I don't hate women. What I do hate is hypocracy and ignorance, whether it is displayed by men or women. It just seems that some people (not mentioning any names, mind you) display it in far greater amounts than average!
(if the shoe fits...)

Steve

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 02:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are sluts and bimbos. And so is he.

One of them was on tv the other morning just about in tears over how the worst thing was putting her son through all this embarassment. Yet she came forward on her own, put herself on the Today show in front of the world to cry about it. WTF??? If she really wanted to protect her kid, she would never have been with a married man in the first place, and she certainly wouldn't have come out in public and admitted it. (Or did Tiger out all of his girls?)

Tiger is not innocent. But neither are any of these women. They all made the decision to sleep with a guy who no only wasn't their husband, but was someone else's. What does that make them? sluts or bimbos?

I don't hate women. What I do hate is hypocracy and ignorance, whether it is displayed by men or women. It just seems that some people (not mentioning any names, mind you) display it in far greater amounts than average!
(if the shoe fits...)

Steve </div></div>

You don't hate women? Just some women? Just women with opinions? Just women who like to do what men do?

Why then do I have the distinct impression that you hate me?

Why would you write what you wrote, about women...you don't think that was a disgusting statement for you to make???


You had a Mother? You had daughters? You hate hypocracy and
ignorance, but wrote...


"When a woman spreads her legs, she loses her defense..."

Tell me, how does all that fit together cohesively?

G.

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 02:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Why then do I have the distinct impression that you hate me?


G. </div></div>

I told you I hate hypocracy and ignorance. If you get that impression, I can only offer a guess as to why you might feel that way.

Steve

Gayle in MD
12-15-2009, 03:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Why then do I have the distinct impression that you hate me?


G. </div></div>

I told you I hate hypocracy and ignorance. If you get that impression, I can only offer a guess as to why you might feel that way.

Steve </div></div>

OIC, so you're just going to skip this core part of the discussion, right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You had a Mother? You had daughters? You hate hypocracy and
ignorance, but wrote...


"When a woman spreads her legs, she loses her defense..."

Tell me, how does all that fit together cohesively?

G.
</div></div>

Nice try!

eg8r
12-15-2009, 03:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why then do I have the distinct impression that you hate me?</div></div>Speaking for myself only, I don't hate you. I actually think you would be a pretty cool person to hang out with. I laugh at almost everything you write but they always say there must be a "little truth in there" to make it funny.

eg8r

pooltchr
12-15-2009, 03:55 PM
If my daughter chose to engage in sex, and became pregnant because of that decision, the child she is carrying would not be hers alone. It would belong to both of them. She can't get pregnant by herself. How difficult is that to comprehend. Most 13 year olds understand that fact. It takes two people to make a baby, and it is wrong to say that one of them can make the decision to kill it.

Steve