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Chris Cass
08-15-2002, 11:20 PM
Just thought I'd mention the game I saw tonight. I watched 2 "C" players battling it out at the tune of $100. a rack 9ball. I sat there and watched as $500. was burning a hole in my pocket and couldn't do anything about it.

I knew both players and the one I liked, was losing 9 games. The night before it was the same thing only the player I liked was down 12 games at $200. a game. He eventually broke even and ended the game.

The guy I liked to win has had a different player everynight the past week. All being really close "C" players and my hands are tied. So, being a "C" player does have it's advantages too.

Heide asked, how could they play for 1 and $200. a game. I said, it's easy. If your games are close and equal in speed, you could play for $500. it wouldn't matter. As long as the money is there and the game players don't pull up.

It's not so bad being a "C" player. You get great action and a chance to come up in rank, as they go through this type of pressure.

Regards,

C.C.

08-16-2002, 12:23 AM
I cant imagine 2 C players playing to see who is better...as both of them surly must know that the biggest reason they are C players is that they are too inconsistant to be anything else.. more so I would say they played just to do some gambling in which case I really have no interest in their sad sicknesses. I am one person that truly believes that this sport would be 100 times better without the gambling.. I think anyone who says that they have to gamble to play good is full of it. I believe anyone can excel at pool if they love the sport as I do. Unfortunately to many people pool is just another slot machine. Gambling is a sickness and I cant see how people can be proud to say they just took some guy for hundreds of dollars even tho that might have been the guys rent money you just won.

Cueless Joey
08-16-2002, 02:31 AM
CC, a friend of mine is a C player. He has lost around 50G's since last November. Someone told me, it could be more. I stopped going with him b/c he is a hard head. He thinks pool is personal. I know another bookie who is a c player and gambles big.
Actually, I think C players have more gamble in them. Sadly, in pool most often than not, the better you get at playing the better you get at gambling.
But, some people just want outright robbery.

Voodoo Daddy
08-16-2002, 02:48 AM
But your a "CC" player, does that mean you get to play them both at once?...HAHAHAHAHAHA

Chris Cass
08-16-2002, 06:18 AM
Hi Ken,

Your absolutely right. Gambling is a sickness. You don't have to gamble to play good. You do if you want to make pool your only source of income. Todays players know the deal and know what weight and make there own games. Some are just trying to make the 6 bits needed to get by and even then, they don't have insurance.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
08-16-2002, 06:39 AM
Hi Joey,

I feel for your friend. I've seen players hell bent on taking someones money they can't stand. The key to playing someone you hate is not to hate. You can't beat anyone you hate. You need to keep a clear mind.

As Downtown said and I have to agree. You don't need to gamble to become a champ. The "C" players get a ton of action due to their skill level. Nothing wrong with that. Unless, you take it too far.

Working in the casino business for 9 yrs. I've seen more than my share of the different types of gamblers. The addicted ones were the most pathetic. The addiction has nothing to do with the amount bet though. Some people have a higher income then others and tend to bet what they afford. Like cars, I drive a Taurus. A Dr. might drive a Caddy. Their betting affordability is higher than mine for sure. What ever the reasons for gambling. If it's self destructive than, that's not a good thing.

This particular money I believe may have been tainted. Also, you never know when your being set up for side action. I've been aroung long enough to know when to duck a trap. The place I play, there's nothing but traps. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~likes Joey.....

Chris Cass
08-16-2002, 06:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> But your a "CC" player, does that mean you get to play them both at once?...HAHAHAHAHAHA <hr></blockquote>

HAHA, that's real funny Voodoo. See how much you laugh after riding home with Kato from the Open. HAHAHAHA

Regards,

C.C.~~I kill myself sometimes.....lol

Kato
08-16-2002, 06:59 AM
Ouch, dogged again by my "friend". Oh well, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Kato

bluewolf
08-16-2002, 07:18 AM
what is a c player? is that like an apa 4? if so, i am fighting my way to the middle &lt;G&gt;

bluewolf

08-16-2002, 07:53 AM
you are right about GAMBLING not being directly tied to the ability of someone. GAMBLING is however tied to a person's emotional capabilities. That's where the term "choking", comes into play. Ben Hogan once said, "if you can't play for Money... you can't play". He was really saying this "if you can't contol your inner self, when playing the game for something more than grins.., you can't control yourself &amp; you shouldn't play for a wager". Every CHOKER has despised himself, not so much for losing, but for CHOKING in itself. It's the inner person that matters &amp; when the inner person is exposed... you have character or you don't... you have dignity or you don't... you have discipline or you don't... you have integrity or you don't... you possess good sportsmanship or you don't!

SpiderMan
08-16-2002, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> what is a c player? is that like an apa 4? if so, i am fighting my way to the middle &lt;G&gt;

bluewolf <hr></blockquote>

Around here, an APA 5 would still be a "C" player. "B" players would probably be APA 6 or 7. Some APA 7s are "A" players. You never know about a 7 because no matter how good they get, they will still be just a 7.

I have a personal "system" that I like to amuse myself by testing when I think about it. I consider the APA skill level as an approximate indicator of how many balls a player is likely to sink before missing /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

SpiderMan

stickman
08-16-2002, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> Unfortunately to many people pool is just another slot machine. Gambling is a sickness and I cant see how people can be proud to say they just took some guy for hundreds of dollars even tho that might have been the guys rent money you just won. <hr></blockquote>

I agree that gambling is a sickness for some, but I wouldn't say all gambling is a sickness. I gamble, but only small wagers. If I can't afford to loose, then I don't gamble. I used to routinely play a small group 9 ball ring games, race to five for $5.00. I had a very good job, and could afford to loose. On a good night, I might win a couple of sets, and break even, after paying my time. I never gambled away my house payment, and never took anyone's. The guys I played had good jobs and could afford to play. I can't imagine playing for the stakes these guys are talking about. Unless the guy has an extremely great income, I'm guessing he has a gambling problem. Why else would someone routinely loose that kind of money? It's kind of sad.

John in NH
08-16-2002, 08:16 AM
Hi Downtown,

"I am one person that truly believes that this sport would be 100 times better without the gambling. I think anyone who says that they have to gamble to play good is full of it. I believe anyone can excel at pool if they love the sport as I do. Unfortunately to many people pool is just another slot machine. Gambling is a sickness and I cant see how people can be proud to say they just took some guy for hundreds of dollars even tho that might have been the guys rent money you just won."

That makes two of us, I totally agree with your post, it seems that people who can least afford to gamble are the ones who do, more often than not they end up losing what they have.

Regards,

John

live well, laugh often, love much

PQQLK9
08-16-2002, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: John in NH:</font><hr>

That makes two of us, I totally agree with your post, it seems that people who can least afford to gamble are the ones who do, more often than not they end up losing what they have.
<hr></blockquote>

make that three....any more room on the bandwagon for a non gambling pool lover...

Cueless Joey
08-16-2002, 10:00 AM
I've been around gambling addicts all my life. My family has a few of 'em.
The worst thing about gambling, besides losing your house etc., is it makes people become pathological liars. Losers in gambling are all liars in denial. Then they carry on with their lying on everything else that involves money.

bluewolf
08-16-2002, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: PQQLK9:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: John in NH:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;

That makes two of us, I totally agree with your post, it seems that people who can least afford to gamble are the ones who do, more often than not they end up losing what they have.
&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

make that three....any more room on the bandwagon for a non gambling pool lover... <hr></blockquote>

since we are trying to get out of the old barroom image and have pool as a respectable sport, gambling hurts this image.

so i vote for no gambling also

bluewolf

Alfie
08-16-2002, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> You never know about a 7 because no matter how good they get, they will still be just a 7. <hr></blockquote> Likewise with 2's. No matter how terrible they play, they never get ranked below a 2.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> I have a personal "system" that I like to amuse myself by testing when I think about it. I consider the APA skill level as an approximate indicator of how many balls a player is likely to sink before missing /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif <hr></blockquote> Been keeping any records? Is it close?

Innings ended with a safety (non-performance shot (APA)) or an empty break should be disregarded, IMO.

08-16-2002, 12:38 PM
last year we had a league in our area fold because the director gambled all of the leagues money away at the casino.... 3 teams didnt go to vegas because of this.

08-16-2002, 12:40 PM
you dont need to "gamble" to get pressure put on you... tournament play can also bring this into effect.. especially as you get closer and closer to winning. there is a great deal of diference between social gambling and compulsive gambling

TomBrooklyn
08-16-2002, 01:44 PM
Which league was that?

SpiderMan
08-16-2002, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Alfie:</font><hr> Been keeping any records? Is it close?

Innings ended with a safety (non-performance shot (APA)) or an empty break should be disregarded, IMO. <hr></blockquote>

No records, but it does seem pretty close for the case where nothing is tied up and all a player has to do is execute a shot and hold their shape. A 3 will average about 3 balls before an unforced error. A 7, on average, should run out the table. Against a 3, I often coach my players to go ahead and break out clusters without potting because their opponent will hand the table back to them anyway.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
08-16-2002, 04:14 PM
To some, gambling is an addiction, a risk-induced adrenaline high. Recently a local character lost $40,000 (no, that's not a typo, I said forty thousand dollars) cash in an evening at Clicks. I wasn't there, but got the story independently from two sources. No one seems to think it was out of line for him.

A former teammate of mine won $26,000 a few years ago from one person, over a period of several weeks. He started with a few hundred, got ahead and stayed ahead, and the guy kept coming back in night after night to play him again. I couldn't imagine it.

I'm often amazed when I watch two-thousand-dollar sets of nineball being played by guys that couldn't even beat me. One such person confessed to a mutual friend that he had probably lost close to two hundred thousand over the past couple of years, most of it to one opponent.

SpiderMan

Tom_In_Cincy
08-16-2002, 05:05 PM
Chris,

Would you agree or disagree about this description of a "C" player?

In a 9 ball match, race to 7:

C-Player

will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one rack in a typical race to 7

Avg. run is 3 to 5 balls

With ball in hand, will get out from the 7, two out of 3 times.

Mixed results when playing safe

Inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.

08-16-2002, 05:46 PM
not sure of the name of the league itself but it was in Surrey B.C. run by Gord gervais

Chris Cass
08-16-2002, 10:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Kato:</font><hr> Ouch, dogged again by my "friend". Oh well, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Kato <hr></blockquote>

I'm not dogging ya Kato. Your my bud. I was talking about you telling him about all the great shots you made. hahah Hey, if you can't count on your friends. Who can you count on? Thanks again for calling the house. It's always great to hear from you. You Fla guys are the nutz.

C.C.~~hope I got away with that one....LMAO

Chris Cass
08-16-2002, 10:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> what is a c player? is that like an apa 4? if so, i am fighting my way to the middle &lt;G&gt;
bluewolf <hr></blockquote>

The middle? HAHAHA Hey Bluewolf, didn't Whitewolf tell you that "A" is just the beginning. LOL You'll get there soon enough I promise. The thing to do is try to master the level you are at now. Get all the information you can and apply it when you can. Practice along with video's. Try to watch higher level players and pick out what they shoot and how they stroke. Take the shots you have problems with and practice them till they become assets.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
08-16-2002, 11:18 PM
Hi Spiderman,

I think that's pathetic. I will admit I'm a gambler and Heide has taught me through yrs the importance of family. I've caused her pain a few times from the casino. Since then, I only gamble with money that won't hurt us. Mostly the money I build up on the side.

Although, I like winning money through pool. I will not be the one who ruins someones life or causes them to hurt there family. I will however take money that, dirtys our street with drugs. The big money often comes from this avenue.

I don't suggest everyone who plays pool should gamble to get better. I love our sport and always have. My gambling has been passed on through generations and ends here with my family. I would like some of the people here to see what I was trying to get across with my post to begin with.

That's not all the money is played by pros or all well advanced players but by the guy or gal that feels there speed is worth betting on, Ego. The only games I get are either games with rediculus spots or with champions. I'm not about stealing and hustling. I play fair and willing to adjust. The guys in my post are all about stealing. The money bet and the money lost was money, that was dirty.IMO

I don't know, gambling is not only about pool. It's a life time battle. I used to think it was the feeling of the win. Now not sure if it's the feeling of winning but the feeling of the bet. Gamblers gamble, pool players play pool. Regardsless of what sport or activity has nothing to do with the problem at all. I think todays young people are educated enough to know the difference.

Thanks Marty,

C.C.

nAz
08-17-2002, 12:13 AM
Dude can you um introduce me to this friend of yours /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Cueless Joey
08-17-2002, 01:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: nAz:</font><hr> Dude can you um introduce me to this friend of yours /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif <hr></blockquote>
He has enough friends. :-0

08-17-2002, 01:22 AM
it seemed to me that you wewre trying to glorify the gambling to the C players.... like you chris I too have gone over the edge in my lifetime and will do it no more.. I put my cues away for about 5 years and promised myself that i would never do it again after i came back... been 3 years now and i still havnt lost anymore than a nights dinner.

bluewolf
08-17-2002, 05:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; what is a c player? is that like an apa 4? if so, i am fighting my way to the middle &lt;G&gt;
bluewolf &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The middle? HAHAHA Hey Bluewolf, didn't Whitewolf tell you that "A" is just the beginning. LOL You'll get there soon enough I promise. The thing to do is try to master the level you are at now. Get all the information you can and apply it when you can. Practice along with video's. Try to watch higher level players and pick out what they shoot and how they stroke. Take the shots you have problems with and practice them till they become assets.

Regards,

C.C. <hr></blockquote>

thanks. i think i am improving pretty good but then i have realistic goals, short term and long term.i am starting league play in a couple of weeks and will probably be bumped to a three.by the ccb i hope to be playing like a 4.

when i am playing good i could beat a so so four, but not a real good four.then ill see what happens tnext.

when i am not playing pool i am dreaming about it. i will wakeup and say to whitewolf, i dreamed about this shot, what english and ball speed should i put on it?

bluewolf

cheesemouse
08-17-2002, 06:02 AM
Gees Chris,
I feel like you got jumped on pretty hard for this post. I think I know where you were coming from. I like the word wagering over gambling. Everything in life seems to be a matter of degrees and the placing of wagers on pool games is just another example. For those of us who enjoy the placement of well thought out wagers on pool games are not trying to put the game in the gutter we are trying to increase the amount of enjoyment we get from the competition. The addicted personality has a problem beyond my control. I don't know who they are in most cases, I just know myself. I will take my fun coupons(money) and use them for my improvement and pleasure anytime I wish and I will continue to do so till the day I leave the table. If one doesn't like to place wagers that's fine but don't lay a morality trip on those of us who do enjoy this pastime.~~~It's a fact of life~deal with it. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

The cheese can be in little pieces as well as large; they all taste the same.

bluewolf
08-17-2002, 06:04 AM
oh yeah, we sit at league and watch all the players and talk about the order of the shots they should take, the position for the next shot and which safetys to play. sometimes i see a safety and i know that it is the best one but whitewolf says it is too hard and that particular player doesnt have the skills.

i like to use the rails a lot.so it didnt seem that hard if they used the rail and had a soft ball speed. but whitewolf is way better than i so i listen.

bluewolf

bluewolf
08-17-2002, 06:11 AM
I never did gamble. Years ago the guys in the pool hall gambled for a beer. When they got up to 25 and 50 dollars, that seemed kind of rediculous to me. I did not want to get addicted to it and also did not want to give up my money.

I reluctantly played throwing for the line-there were three of us. we through a penny at the edge of a wall. whoever came in last had to pay whoever came in first a softdrink.

bluewolf

SPetty
08-17-2002, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Chris,

Would you agree or disagree about this description of a "C" player?

In a 9 ball match, race to 7:

C-Player

will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one rack in a typical race to 7

Avg. run is 3 to 5 balls

With ball in hand, will get out from the 7, two out of 3 times.

Mixed results when playing safe

Inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.

<hr></blockquote>Hi Tom,

That sounds about right to me, but might even be a bit generous based on what I see in the C league that I play in...

TomBrooklyn
08-17-2002, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> The "C" players get a ton of action due to their skill level. <hr></blockquote>Interesting point you make that the C players will get plenty of offers for action. I think your right. I would estimate that the C will usually find himself at a disadvantage, because the better, more experienced player will give up enough to entice the C into a game but rarely enough to make the game even. Why should they?

TomBrooklyn
08-17-2002, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:In a 9 ball match, race to 7:
- C-Player will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one rack
- Avg. run is 3 to 5 balls
- Inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.

That sounds about right to me, but might even be a bit generous based on what I see in the C league that I play in...<hr></blockquote>I'm thinking along the lines of SPetty. How about changing "probably" to "occasionally", and "3 to 5" to "2 to 4". On the inning ends, whats left that you didn't mention besides scratching? -TB

Chris Cass
08-17-2002, 08:19 AM
Bluewolf,

You are definitely on the right path. Most of the time we pool players mess up is trying to do too much with the cb. Your on your way though and going in the right direction. IMO

Have Whitewolf tell you the way to go, not just tell you it's the wrong way. LOL I'm sure he does anyway. I find the game is much easier if you try not to fight the table. I think going with the rails and the natural flow of the lay out is best. Sometimes we have to go a way that's against the natural roll to get on a ball. I find a lot players in your level often don't look at the table spread, in the way to see all the possibilities. Whitewolf can help you there. This has a lot to do with what we can do with the cb at different levels of play. In other words, options. For me I'll see shots differently than Heide. She can see the shots but feels more comfortable shooting certain shots than others. I say unless your in a match, experiment.

Anyway, your heading in the right direction. Don't think of this # assigned as your handicap as your game level. Nobody, has ever handicaped pool players correctly. There's mostly about 10 shots or 11 that come up constantly in a game. Get to practice these shots and get them down. Work on your stroke and keep it smooth and straight. You'll go up sooner or later, I promise.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
08-17-2002, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Chris,
Would you agree or disagree about this description of a "C" player?

In a 9 ball match, race to 7:

C-Player

will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one rack in a typical race to 7

Avg. run is 3 to 5 balls

With ball in hand, will get out from the 7, two out of 3 times.

Mixed results when playing safe

Inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.
<hr></blockquote>

Wow, that's a tough one Tom. The "C" range like any other has different levels within. IMO I see it as "C-", "C" and "C+". What I've noticed about the "C+" is that they can get out a lot of times from the 3 and run a rack from the break. Most will miss due to stroking errors. Twisting the wrist on the grip hand or speed errors with the cb.

What I've noticed mostly is they'll run balls then out of the blue miss a straight in shot. I think on average they'd most likely run 5 or 6 balls, have some problems with breakouts. The breakout problems is they shoot the breakout without knowing where the balls are going to land. They don't think about that. They think about just the breakout and hope they lay good. They'll shoot a combo on the rail and don't even consider of where the first ball, in the combo and that's there next shot.

I guess they'd be considered shot makers, rather than position players. They do however get in the general area, but the position may not be what they've had in mind. It's not calculated at all and just assummed. IMO

I hope I wasn't being too harsh. I was there and everyone will have to get there sooner or later. It's also a knowledge too. People often get handicaped by skill level as well as knowledge. You take a "C" player that hasn't shot for 6 mths. His or her knowledge will beat a "D" player too. Not so much out shoot them but out move them.

My personal opinion as far as the desciption you have. I'd say this is true for the low end of "C" player. Maybe "C-". I truely hope I didn't affend anyone out there. I'm not about that at all. I'm about helping if I can.

Regards,

C.C.

PQQLK9
08-17-2002, 09:15 AM
WOW ! what a description...have you been watching me /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif...I'm a C- on a good day
I need some Scott Lee lessons...

Kato
08-17-2002, 09:21 AM
Shoot Nick. According to my buddy Chris I'm a D- player. Oh well, I can't help it.LOL

Kato~~~still searching hi and lo for that game with Cass

Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2002, 09:36 AM
Chris,

There are 4 divisions to the "C Handicap" I described. This "handicap" system was written in the Dec. 1997 issue of "All About Pool" by Bob Cambell. Mr. Cambell goes into detail about handicapping the D through A players in a 9 ball tournament.

So, you are correct that the "C" player decription I gave was more of an average with lower and higher skill levels still being described as a "C"

Good catch..

Chris Cass
08-17-2002, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> it seemed to me that you wewre trying to glorify the gambling to the C players.... like you chris I too have gone over the edge in my lifetime and will do it no more.. I put my cues away for about 5 years and promised myself that i would never do it again after i came back... been 3 years now and i still havnt lost anymore than a nights dinner. <hr></blockquote>

Hi Ken,

Glorify? God no. Just pointing out what I saw that night.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
08-17-2002, 09:42 AM
Hi Cheese,

Naa, poeple here have their own opinions and I enjoy everyones comments regardless of content. We could be talking about tips too. LOL

I've been thinking we should change the name of the CCB to BFF.

Regards,

C.C.~~always liked the Cheese...always has an ear for you too Cheese....

Chris Cass
08-17-2002, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: PQQLK9:</font><hr> WOW ! what a description...have you been watching me /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif...I'm a C- on a good day
I need some Scott Lee lessons... <hr></blockquote>

Yes Nick,

I have spies watching your every move. HAHAHAHA

Regards,

C.C.