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Soflasnapper
12-21-2009, 05:40 PM
Can anyone refer me to instructional information on eye patterns?

I'm talking about how and when to move ones attention to/from the cue ball/object ball.

I do not always do this comfortably, and I think the lack of a firm routine of how and when to move my attention is a problem for my pocketing.

At the risk of screwing up what you do naturally, can you describe what you look at and when?

I've just been going back through some video instruction, and the Australian Pearl goes through three variations, suggesting that all are used and are usable.

TIA.

pooltchr
12-21-2009, 05:53 PM
In a nutshell,
find your aiming line while you are standing.
As you get into position, verify the cue is still on line.
Eyes on the tip and cue ball during warm-up strokes.
Stop in the Set position and let your eyes lock in on your target. Draw the cue back smoothly and then finish your final stroke with your eyes remaining on your target.

Steve

BCA Master Instr
12-21-2009, 06:09 PM
There are three basic eye patterns that can be utilized. One is great, one is OK and the last one is terrible.

1. Eyes to target in the SET position.....perfect
2. Eyes to target in PAUSE position..OK, requires a longer PAUSE.
3. Eyes to target when cue is moving...ouch

BCA Master Instr
12-21-2009, 06:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone refer me to instructional information on eye patterns?

I'm talking about how and when to move ones attention to/from the cue ball/object ball.

I do not always do this comfortably, and I think the lack of a firm routine of how and when to move my attention is a problem for my pocketing.

At the risk of screwing up what you do naturally, can you describe what you look at and when?

I've just been going back through some video instruction, and the Australian Pearl goes through three variations, suggesting that all are used and are usable.

TIA. </div></div>

I wonder where he got those three from????

pooltchr
12-21-2009, 06:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
I wonder where he got those three from???? </div></div>

I'm just making a wild guess, but I would bet he got it from that guy at Cue-Tech.

Steve

Soflasnapper
12-21-2009, 08:56 PM
Randy, I think my problem is using #3.

I've been trying to use the cue ball last eye pattern, but I don't really believe in it, and I'm cheating it by looking up late. So I'm not really focusing anywhere, actually, given the time it takes to refocus a different focal length and really see it.

Watching Niels in particular over the weekend, seems he's on the cue ball at set position, and then you see his brow furrow as he raises the line of his sight after the set position (on his backswing??). It's the back and forth prior to the last SPF routine that also bothers me.

Scott Lee
12-22-2009, 12:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy, I think my problem is using #3.

I've been trying to use the cue ball last eye pattern, but I don't really believe in it, and I'm cheating it by looking up late. So I'm not really focusing anywhere, actually, given the time it takes to refocus a different focal length and really see it.

Watching Niels in particular over the weekend, seems he's on the cue ball at set position, and then you see his brow furrow as he raises the line of his sight after the set position (on his backswing??). It's the back and forth prior to the last SPF routine that also bothers me.</div></div>

Phil...You'll learn everything you ever wanted to know, about eye patterns, when you come to school next month. BTW, the venue has been changed. The FL road show pool school will be 8a-5p Friday-Sunday, 2/19-2/21, at Diamonds in Cape Coral. This a great room, and it will host a great school! Anyone interested can PM me. We still have 2 slots left, before school is sold out.

Scott Lee

dr_dave
12-22-2009, 05:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone refer me to instructional information on eye patterns?</div></div>See:

stroke "best practices" (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf)

and

"quiet eyes" info (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#quiet)

Regards,
Dave

Soflasnapper
12-22-2009, 07:49 PM
Scott, that's a tease (and an ad)!

Dave, I'm already 'quietly' viewing that info. Thanks.

I am certain I continue to have flaws in my game, even though I have reduced and maybe nearly eliminated some other flaws.

This sighting thing is now getting down to the final gross flaw, based on game result feedback.

Steve, what you recommend is what my BCA-cert instructor said, which I didn't entirely understand. He also said the address and practice stroking should be done purely looking at the cue ball and the tip's approach to the cue ball.

As I mentioned about Niels, and as I've seen with many good to great players, it seems they are looking at the cue ball, AND looking at the object ball, each practice swing. Not what you recommend.

Any comments on that difference?

pooltchr
12-22-2009, 08:33 PM
The purpose of warm up strokes is to loosen up the muscles, and to make sure your tip is going to make contact with the cue ball where you intend. If that is the reason you are doing warm up strokes, it stands to reason that your eyes should be gathering that information for your brain.

If you need to check your aiming line, do it when you aren't moving the cue stick. If you have ever accidentally fouled while doing warm-up strokes, I would be willing to bet that it happened when your eyes were looking at something else!

Steve

JoeW
12-22-2009, 08:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone refer me to instructional information on eye patterns?

I'm talking about how and when to move ones attention to/from the cue ball/object ball.

I do not always do this comfortably, and I think the lack of a firm routine of how and when to move my attention is a problem for my pocketing.

At the risk of screwing up what you do naturally, can you describe what you look at and when?

TIA. </div></div>

I don't have any eye pattern book references but I can tell you what I have learned that has seriously changed my game over a period of time.

It is difficult to see the target on a slick pool ball with few distinguishing features. I said to myself, "If I don't know where the target is how can I hit it?" So my first job was to find the target. I learned there are several ways to do this.

I think of putting a level nine inch nail through the center of the OB while I am standing. The nail sticks out about 1 inch on my side (ghost ball position), through the OB, and about six inches towards the pocket.

Some times I have to go and stand behind the OB and look at the pocket through the OB to find some - any - contact point and a line of travel for the object ball. Then I return to the CB and begin again. Now I have a contact point but need a line of travel for the OB from a different perspective.

I stare at the contact point and the line of travel for a few seconds (a long time). This is the quiet eye that Dave alludes to. Next I try to visualize or see the OB move down that line for a few inches (per Jack Nicklas' recommendations). With practice I have learned that I can actually imagine the OB move a few inches.

From watching Johnny Archer (step into the shot*)and Shawn Putnam (bend slow)I learned to bend over slowly with my eyes on the contact point and the line of travel for the OB. The perspective changes yet again. My eyes never leaves the contact point and the line of travel until my hand hits the table..

I am not ready to look at cue tip placement on the cue ball until I have the target and its movement securely in my mind.

Now that I am bent over I look through the CB and attempt to use the CB like a hammer. I am going to use the front or side of the CB to hammer the OB into the pocket. A few preliminary strokes are used to make sure the cue stick is on the right line. Adjustmens are made as needed.

I adjust my bridge hand as needed for side spin and I am looking through the center of the CB to the target. After using this approach for a few times I was surprised to discover that now when I look "through" the cue ball I have not lost my target on the OB. I seem to know exactly where it is.

Recently, I discovered what someone on AZB called the intermediate target as described by golfers. On a long shot such as length of table or there abouts, I can improve my ability to hit that target by finding a point half way to the OB that should be on the same line as the front of the CB and the contact point. If the three points don't line up, there is something wrong with my stick placement and I adjust as needed.

The use of the intermediate target has been most helpful over the last few days. One way to explain the intermediate target is to trace the cue ball line of travel about half way to the target then look up at the target and see if the line continues to the target. If it does not then I have to adjust because I know where the target is but I have placed the cue ball on the wrong line.

I only look at the cue ball to determine if my stick placement is correct. Other than that all of my time is spent finding and looking at the target through the cue ball and its contact point.. I spend a few seconds (quiet eye again) looking through the CB and where the front of the CB will be used to drive the OB down that line of travel.

When I am ready to shoot I am staring at the CP and the line of travel for the last few warm up strokes and try to fire by staying perfectly still where nothing moves but by arm until after the CB has struck the target.

This method for using my eyes may not be the one recommended by many instructors but I have found it to be highly effective for my game. I present it here because you asked and because it may have some useful elements.

I think my first thought is the most important. If you don't know exactly what you are going to hit and where the OB will travel, how can you pocket it consistently?

As the saying goes, your mileage may vary, and I am sure that others have other recommendations. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

*Stepping into the shot is my personal trigger that turns the shot making over to the subconscious.

JoeW
12-22-2009, 09:11 PM
Others will disagree but I think that the placement of the bridge hand and repositioning the back of the cue stick require subtle, even exquisite, adjustments. Simply put, it is not possible for me to drop my bridge hand in exactly the right place for the amount of spin that is required for this particular shot. Whether I like it or not, I am going to have to make subtle adjustments to the bridge and back hand when I am in the shooting position.

With thanks to RandyG I have learned to have a personal template for usual bridge distance from the CB and rear hand / arm placement at a perpendicular angle to the stick that has become a natural part of the aiming process. However, I have found my own way to use my eyes as described above that is not consistent with the SPF school of thought.

BCA Master Instr
12-23-2009, 09:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Others will disagree but I think that the placement of the bridge hand and repositioning the back of the cue stick require subtle, even exquisite, adjustments. Simply put, it is not possible for me to drop my bridge hand in exactly the right place for the amount of spin that is required for this particular shot. Whether I like it or not, I am going to have to make subtle adjustments to the bridge and back hand when I am in the shooting position.

With thanks to RandyG I have learned to have a personal template for usual bridge distance from the CB and rear hand / arm placement at a perpendicular angle to the stick that has become a natural part of the aiming process. However, I have found my own way to use my eyes as described above that is not consistent with the SPF school of thought. </div></div>

<u>OUR SCHOOL OF THOUGHT IS:</u>
To Open Minds to different ways. Try something new once and a while. To expose the Urban Myths of pool. To find yourself.

It seems that together Joe, we have gotten closer to our mission goals. As I mentioned to the Class: Those are your eyes, not mine.....God Bless and Merry Christmas

JoeW
12-23-2009, 04:18 PM
Andf a very Merry Christmas to you and yours and all the forum members.

Joe and Kay Waldron

Scott Lee
12-24-2009, 02:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott, that's a tease (and an ad)!

Steve, what you recommend is what my BCA-cert instructor said, which I didn't entirely understand. He also said the address and practice stroking should be done purely looking at the cue ball and the tip's approach to the cue ball.

As I mentioned about Niels, and as I've seen with many good to great players, it seems they are looking at the cue ball, AND looking at the object ball, each practice swing. Not what you recommend.

Any comments on that difference?</div></div>

I'm not Steve, but I'll comment on your question. Neurologists kinesiologists, and opthamologists tell us that if you're going to do a highly coordinated hand/eye activity...such as moving your cuestick in your warm up strokes, such that the tip stops 1/4" from the CB...that you're more likely to have success, if you focus solely on the CB, anytime you're moving your cuestick. Stopping close verifies exactly where you wish to strike the CB (it's a teeny imaginary spot 3mm across).

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
12-24-2009, 03:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a "highly coordinated" hand/eye activity...such as moving your cuestick in your warm up strokes, such that the tip stops 1/4" from the CB </div></div>????
I think returning serve;hitting a ping pong ball is highly coordinated....but maybe adding in the right speed, the correct spin...would bring hitting a stationary object, close to an h.c. activity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you focus solely on the CB </div></div> ????
What happened to the P.E.P. ??????
I have my own patent pending system..."see the ball, hit the ball"
Seriously, I like the idea of jes eyeballing the OB, after making sure your tip placement is correct. But then that's why I'll never be able to offer you more then the 7 ball, and maybe 2 on the wire....lol
Have a great Christmas, and continued success in the new year!!

Scott Lee
12-25-2009, 02:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a "highly coordinated" hand/eye activity...such as moving your cuestick in your warm up strokes, such that the tip stops 1/4" from the CB </div></div>????
I think returning serve;hitting a ping pong ball is highly coordinated....but maybe adding in the right speed, the correct spin...would bring hitting a stationary object, close to an h.c. activity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you focus solely on the CB </div></div> ????
What happened to the P.E.P. ??????
I have my own patent pending system..."see the ball, hit the ball"
Seriously, I like the idea of jes eyeballing the OB, after making sure your tip placement is correct. But then that's why I'll never be able to offer you more then the 7 ball, and maybe 2 on the wire....lol
Have a great Christmas, and continued success in the new year!! </div></div>

Jack...Ping-pong is a reactionary sport (you're hitting a moving object), unlike pool. The focus on the CB is part of the PEP process. I'd take you up on your offer of the 7 and 2 on the wire, but I don't want to steal your social security, and leave you broke! LOL Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too!

Scott Lee

BCA Master Instr
12-26-2009, 12:54 PM
P.E.P. is the 2nd most important thing we focus on in Pool School....

Soflasnapper
12-26-2009, 03:24 PM
Joe, thanks for the description of your processes.

A couple of responses occur to me. One is that the extra ornamental triangles on a Centennial ball set sometimes provide noticeable markers to aid in getting a fix on the contact point. That's the set I use at home, and what I can sometimes get at our home league pool hall. But league finally standardized on the red-dot cue ball (making the blue-dot that comes with the Centennial set illegal), so mainly we use the Aramith or Super Aramith sets. Nor would I want to use the red-dot with the Centennials anyway, so that's a limited option.

I don't shy away from extreme cuts if that appears to be the right shot, and I think it's fairly impossible to see the 1/8th inch or 1/16th inch difference in the contact line that runs the ball to the pocket, or runs it slightly into the rail and hangs up the object ball in the jaws.

So I think that sighting the line in such a case has to be almost intuitive and/or by rote visual memory, OR, and this is what I've only recently changed to, a good visualization of the ghost ball (which is probably a heuristic mechanism based on rote visual memory). Using the ghost ball almost eliminates the contact point as a factor, because you do not cut into the ghost ball, but always hit the ghost ball full in its ghostly face.

But now, you have the eye pattern question of what it is you look at on the final stroke. If the answer is the imaginary ghost ball (and I think it is for shots like extreme cuts, at least), it is little wonder that many people put the whole thing over to an intuitive process, and tell you just hit a lot of shots of a certain kind, pay attention, and eventually the brain/body system will pick up some accuracy for that shot.

But whatever it is one looks for at the end part of the stroking pattern, you still have to get your eyes on it, and for some duration. So almost disregarding the way one gets the aim line (CTE, ball fractions, ghost ball, etc., which should all yield the SAME aim line if you're going to pocket the ball, anyway), the eyes have to do their reliable practiced movements onto what you're focusing on.

I take it you do not use a reduced deflection shaft, since you talk about the adjustments to the line of aim sometimes required by the English you will be using for the shot?

pooltchr
12-26-2009, 05:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I take it you do not use a reduced deflection shaft, since you talk about the adjustments to the line of aim sometimes required by the English you will be using for the shot?



</div></div>

All cues have some deflection, so all shots with english require some adjustment to allow for cue ball squirt. LD shafts just reduce the amount of adjustment, the don't eliminate it.
Steve

JoeW
12-27-2009, 10:34 AM
I like your term “Rote Visual Memory” as an explanation for something I learned about aiming. I have attempted to explain what I found in the past and it was not well received. It is a strong phenomena and worth repeating in a revised fashion. Unfortunately I have to tell a story that precedes it.

There is a phenomenon in which people with a shared history can and do develop a shared language. If we show a class of students 100 dried peas they will say that the peas all look alike. If we send two students off to sort the peas in any way they want to sort them they will return with a way to sort peas and a language that they understand but others do not follow very well. You have to have a shared history sorting peas to understand their way of working even though we are all using the same basic language. We all see this develop in teenagers, or in groups who share the same experience such as texting.

I think the same thing can be done with aiming a cue ball except that I am a group of one – is there such a thing. Anyway, based on my experience it would be interesting to see someone else try another way to aim and see if they find the same things I found. At this point I can’t know if it is me or if it is a generalized phenomenon that others could use and derive some benefit. So here is my best explanation, using the same language everyone else uses but with a meaning that is best understood when you try it yourself. There are no mystical things going on, it is only a matter of shared experiences with attention to details that may not have been seriously studied by others.

I looked for the easiest way to train myself to see the object ball’s path and the part of the cue ball that is used to make the object ball move down that path. To do this I set the cue ball two diamonds off the foot rail and 1 1/2 diamonds off the side rail. I placed the cue ball at the other end of the table for a straight to the pocket shot. I used my regular pre-shot routine as taught by RandyG and paid a great deal of attention to the contact points and the lines of travel. Using Jack Nicklas’ recommendations I tried to see the object ball and the cue ball move down those lines before I executed the shot. I put a great deal of effort into “seeing” the contact points (object ball and the front of the cue ball). I trained myself to not move anything after the shot and to actually see the cue ball contact the object ball before moving anything at all. This results in the ability to see any small errors in aiming estimation and any stroke errors. I made this shot perhaps 100 – 200 times. I really did not keep count I just kept shooting until I was as sure as I could be that I knew exactly what was going to happen and what did happen. As you can imagine, a great deal of effort is required when attempting to pay attention to everything on this simple length of table shot. The shot was practiced over several days, perhaps three days until I thought I had trained my self to do it perfectly every time.

In phase two I moved the cue ball one cue ball’s width off of a straight in shot line. By this time I know (absolutely knew) where the contact point and the lines of travel are for the object ball. This is difficult to explain because there are no visual points yet my mind is able to “create” these contact points and lines of travel. In my attempts I shoot the center of the cue ball’s front contact point at the same place I was using for a straight in shot. I found that though I was a ball’s width off line the aiming point of the cue ball was the same as for a straight in shot. Perhaps my mind adjusted; perhaps the contact point is the same (though other people have said it can’t be the same).

Someone asked me, “How do you know where the front of the cue ball is, you can’t see it?” This is a language problem between my self and others who do not have a shared experiential history. I can’t explain it to you, you just have to do it enough times and you too will be able to visualize and “see” the front dead center of the cue ball in your mind’s eye.

After mastering the “one ball off line” shot I set the cue ball two balls off line, then three balls off line and continued in this manner until I had reached the limits of the table. I found that many shots can be played by shooting the front dead center of the cue ball at the contact point and the line of travel for the object ball. By this time I have played well over a thousand shots with great attention to detail and truly have experiences that are not shared by many people. I have found that for a great many shots all one needs to do is to aim the front dead center of the cue ball at the contact point. I made diagrams that show me where this type of aiming fails and I lerned to estimate the compensation by aiming the front dead center past the object ball contact point as needed.

Here is the rub. Several people have told me that it is not possible to do what I have described. However, I absolutely know that it is not only possible but that it works amazing well if one takes the time to train themselves to “know” where these contact points are located on those undefined surfaces. My knowledge is based on experience not on theoretical issues. I think that the mind learns to construct these points and lines of travel

It works but I am the first to admit that I do not know why it works. Perhaps (as someone noted) my brain / mind learned to automatically compensate after thoroughly learning that first shot. Perhaps it is true that one only has to aim at the contact point with the front dead center of the cue ball to send the object ball down that line of travel from many different places on the table. I do not know, but I do know that if you train yourself to “see” the contact points and the lines of travel that this type of aiming works.

Currently, I am a sample of one and it is my hope that perhaps someone else will take up a serious study of how to aim a straight in shot and its variations. Then I will have someone with whom to compare notes.

After hearing a different version of this story Dr Dave tried a few of the shots at the limits of center ball aiming and found that it did not work for him and thought that based on theory it could not work. I think that it did not work for him given his current way of shooting and thinking. That is, we do not have a shared way of discussing the issue. Dave is not the only one who had issues with what I called center ball aiming. He is just one example.

In thinking though why it did not work for others I have concluded that it is necessary to shoot many shots to first learn where front dead center is located. It is necessary to train your eyes to find the contact point and the line of travel for the object ball. This training results in a “new” way to see how to aim a cue ball. But of course I have no “proof” that this is true only my suspicions based on my own experience which is not sufficient to develop a generalized statement.

Sorry for the long post, there just is not another way to easily explain it.

BCA Master Instr
12-27-2009, 10:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like your term “Rote Visual Memory” as an explanation for something I learned about aiming. I have attempted to explain what I found in the past and it was not well received. It is a strong phenomena and worth repeating in a revised fashion. Unfortunately I have to tell a story that precedes it.

There is a phenomenon in which people with a shared history can and do develop a shared language. If we show a class of students 100 dried peas they will say that the peas all look alike. If we send two students off to sort the peas in any way they want to sort them they will return with a way to sort peas and a language that they understand but others do not follow very well. You have to have a shared history sorting peas to understand their way of working even though we are all using the same basic language. We all see this develop in teenagers, or in groups who share the same experience such as texting.

I think the same thing can be done with aiming a cue ball except that I am a group of one – is there such a thing. Anyway, based on my experience it would be interesting to see someone else try another way to aim and see if they find the same things I found. At this point I can’t know if it is me or if it is a generalized phenomenon that others could use and derive some benefit. So here is my best explanation, using the same language everyone else uses but with a meaning that is best understood when you try it yourself. There are no mystical things going on, it is only a matter of shared experiences with attention to details that may not have been seriously studied by others.

I looked for the easiest way to train myself to see the object ball’s path and the part of the cue ball that is used to make the object ball move down that path. To do this I set the cue ball two diamonds off the foot rail and 1 1/2 diamonds off the side rail. I placed the cue ball at the other end of the table for a straight to the pocket shot. I used my regular pre-shot routine as taught by RandyG and paid a great deal of attention to the contact points and the lines of travel. Using Jack Nicklas’ recommendations I tried to see the object ball and the cue ball move down those lines before I executed the shot. I put a great deal of effort into “seeing” the contact points (object ball and the front of the cue ball). I trained myself to not move anything after the shot and to actually see the cue ball contact the object ball before moving anything at all. This results in the ability to see any small errors in aiming estimation and any stroke errors. I made this shot perhaps 100 – 200 times. I really did not keep count I just kept shooting until I was as sure as I could be that I knew exactly what was going to happen and what did happen. As you can imagine, a great deal of effort is required when attempting to pay attention to everything on this simple length of table shot. The shot was practiced over several days, perhaps three days until I thought I had trained my self to do it perfectly every time.

In phase two I moved the cue ball one cue ball’s width off of a straight in shot line. By this time I know (absolutely knew) where the contact point and the lines of travel are for the object ball. This is difficult to explain because there are no visual points yet my mind is able to “create” these contact points and lines of travel. In my attempts I shoot the center of the cue ball’s front contact point at the same place I was using for a straight in shot. I found that though I was a ball’s width off line the aiming point of the cue ball was the same as for a straight in shot. Perhaps my mind adjusted; perhaps the contact point is the same (though other people have said it can’t be the same).

Someone asked me, “How do you know where the front of the cue ball is, you can’t see it?” This is a language problem between my self and others who do not have a shared experiential history. I can’t explain it to you, you just have to do it enough times and you too will be able to visualize and “see” the front dead center of the cue ball in your mind’s eye.

After mastering the “one ball off line” shot I set the cue ball two balls off line, then three balls off line and continued in this manner until I had reached the limits of the table. I found that many shots can be played by shooting the front dead center of the cue ball at the contact point and the line of travel for the object ball. By this time I have played well over a thousand shots with great attention to detail and truly have experiences that are not shared by many people. I have found that for a great many shots all one needs to do is to aim the front dead center of the cue ball at the contact point. I made diagrams that show me where this type of aiming fails and I lerned to estimate the compensation by aiming the front dead center past the object ball contact point as needed.

Here is the rub. Several people have told me that it is not possible to do what I have described. However, I absolutely know that it is not only possible but that it works amazing well if one takes the time to train themselves to “know” where these contact points are located on those undefined surfaces. My knowledge is based on experience not on theoretical issues. I think that the mind learns to construct these points and lines of travel

It works but I am the first to admit that I do not know why it works. Perhaps (as someone noted) my brain / mind learned to automatically compensate after thoroughly learning that first shot. Perhaps it is true that one only has to aim at the contact point with the front dead center of the cue ball to send the object ball down that line of travel from many different places on the table. I do not know, but I do know that if you train yourself to “see” the contact points and the lines of travel that this type of aiming works.

Currently, I am a sample of one and it is my hope that perhaps someone else will take up a serious study of how to aim a straight in shot and its variations. Then I will have someone with whom to compare notes.

After hearing a different version of this story Dr Dave tried a few of the shots at the limits of center ball aiming and found that it did not work for him and thought that based on theory it could not work. I think that it did not work for him given his current way of shooting and thinking. That is, we do not have a shared way of discussing the issue. Dave is not the only one who had issues with what I called center ball aiming. He is just one example.

In thinking though why it did not work for others I have concluded that it is necessary to shoot many shots to first learn where front dead center is located. It is necessary to train your eyes to find the contact point and the line of travel for the object ball. This training results in a “new” way to see how to aim a cue ball. But of course I have no “proof” that this is true only my suspicions based on my own experience which is not sufficient to develop a generalized statement.

Sorry for the long post, there just is not another way to easily explain it. </div></div>


What did you just say????

JoeW
12-27-2009, 11:04 AM
BTW, I use a predator Z2 shaft but did not talk about the simultaneous use of front and back hand english ala Joe Tucker's ideas. What I do with the cue stick is not the same as what I do with my eyes.

First I must "see" the shot as described above. Then I place the stick as needed to achieve the desired position. I did not include these complicating factors in the original discussion of a "simple" shot or what I think of as the shot line. This is the line down which the cue ball will travel. When it is a "simple" shot the cue is on this line. At other times the cue stick is at an angle to this line. But that would be another discussion wouldn't it?

In fact my cue stick is often not on the same line as the shot line when it comes to playing the game.

JoeW
12-27-2009, 11:08 AM
BCA Master Instructor said, "What did you just say?"

To reduce it to the short vesion, I guess I said that the eyes can be taught to create lines of travel and to create the contact points. I think -- but really don't know -- that center ball aiming can be used much more often than what others might think.

But I don't think other can understand what I mean until they try it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif

I got the joke but you also providedme the opportunity to summarize /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
12-27-2009, 11:13 AM
Wow, that's a lot to absorb!
What I got was that with the object ball stationary, the contact point on the ob remains constant. As you move the cb, the cb contact point will shift, in order to make contact with that same point on the ob.
What you are visualizing is the track line from the cb contact point to the ob contact point, and then shoot the shot to make those contact points connect.
If that is correct, I have found that Joe Tuckers aiming method can help to explain how and why that works.

Am I close????

Steve

JoeW
12-27-2009, 11:20 AM
Yeah, I think that is a good way to state it Steve. How does Joe Tucker explain it? I guess I missed that part in his book.

The only exception to what you stated seems to be that the front dead center of the cue ball becomes a reference point and is used with the "created" OB contact point and line of travel.

BCA Master Instr
12-27-2009, 11:55 AM
What a great explanation of S.A.M.

JoeW
12-27-2009, 12:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a great explanation of S.A.M. </div></div>

Yeah, you gotta love re-inventing the wheel ! but with a twist