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Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2002, 09:53 AM
Please do not post a reply to this message with your skill rating. JUST your opinion about the difinitions THANKS

9-Ball Tournament race to 7 (Dec.1997 "All About Pool" magazine, article
by Bob Cambell)
Handicap rankings
(pardon my poor para-phrasing)

D- Player
will not run a rack
average run is about 3 balls
with ball in hand, will get out from the 7, one out of 3 times
rarely plays a successful safe

C-Player
will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one rack in a typical race to 7
avg. run is 3 to 5 balls
with ball in hand, will get out from the 7, two out of 3 times
mixed results when playing safe
inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.

B-Player
Able to run 1 to 3 racks
avg. run is 5-7 balls
with ball in hand will get out form the 5, 2 out of 3 times
most of the time a "B" player will play a "safety" which maybe hit easily 2 out of 3 times
a typical inning will end with a missed shot, a fair safety, or a won game

A-Player
will string 2 to 3 racks
avg. ball run, 7-9
with ball in hand, will be out from the 3 ball, 2 out of 3 times
typical inning will end with a well executed safety or a win.

OPEN-Players
average 8+ balls
string racks together more than once in a match
is a threat to run out from every ball, from every position, every inning
typical inning will end in excellent safety or win

Mr. Cambell continues this article with a handicap chart for the 4 levels of each type of player. The chart would look like this;

Lowest handicap is D4, then D3, then D2 and so on until the highest would be OPEN 1

Do you think these are still accurate descriptions, after 4 years?

NH_Steve
08-17-2002, 10:14 AM
D players: Decent basic shotmaking; still learning all basics of position & safety play
C players: Good basic shotmaking; inconsistent position; decent basic safety play
B players: Good shotmaking, position & safety play -- but frequent lapses of execution
A players: B players with more consistent execution & more advanced safety & position play
Pros: A players with yet more consistent execution & more natural ability (both physical & mental)

I'd say each level of improvement is a range around 50% above the level below. However, I think handicaps shouldn't be more than about 25%, because I do feel better players deserve to retain a statistical edge advantage (and i guarantee better players agree /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif )

Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2002, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: NH_Steve:</font><hr> D players: Decent basic shotmaking; still learning all basics of position &amp; safety play
C players: Good basic shotmaking; inconsistent position; decent basic safety play
B players: Good shotmaking, position &amp; safety play -- but frequent lapses of execution
A players: B players with more consistent execution &amp; more advanced safety &amp; position play
Pros: A players with yet more consistent execution &amp; more natural ability (both physical &amp; mental)

I'd say each level of improvement is a range around 50% above the level below. However, I think handicaps shouldn't be more than about 25%, because I do feel better players deserve to retain a statistical edge advantage (and i guarantee better players agree /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif ) <hr></blockquote>

Good description..
Most handicap systems us either 100% or 80% difference to make the game even.
I wouldn't argue a 25% handicap... but for an even playing field... using a 100% handicap system. the goal is to have a lot of games even, only a few games uneven.

Bell curve comes to mind..

I. E. Out of 165 games played on a handicapped tournament.. 100 would be played just above or below even. 25 would have the lower handicap win easily.. and 20 would have the higer handicap win easily.

Vapros
08-17-2002, 11:10 AM
Tournaments are run for a variety of reasons. Do you just want to draw a lot of entries or find out who can play pool? If you try to plan a handicapping system that will give every entrant an equal chance to win, then your event becomes a sort of crapshoot and you invite some hard feelings about the ratings of the top finishers, and perhaps some sandbagging as well.

I would prefer a handicap system that gives the lower-rated player a chance to win if he/she plays his best, but keeps a built-in advantage for the better player. It does not need to be a big advantage, but ideally, if everybody plays as they are rated, the better players will finish higher. A weak player should be able to feel he can beat his opponent if he plays hard or gets a bit of luck.

It's not quite as easy as in bowling, where everybody has last season's average to refer to - usually for 100 games or more. Handicapping is tricky. It's necessary for all except championship events, but it's not easy to do it well.

jjinfla
08-17-2002, 11:33 AM
Tom, This rating system of players makes a lot more sense now than when I first read it a year or two ago. Two bad pool doesn't have leagues where people play within their ratings without any spot balls or games ahead. You play in the "D" league until you come out on top and then you move to the "C" league and you stay there until you win that and then move to the "B" league. In that type of system a player who is rated higher should regularly beat anyone rated lower than him. Unfortunately, tournaments are not really meant to be fair the way they are structured now. All they are is a way to generate business to the pool room or bar. And you will find that the people who spend the most are usually rewarded with nice handicaps. Jake~~~but it's the only game in town guys.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2002, 11:56 AM
Vapros,
In a handicapped match, the player that plays above his normal game level should always win. Agree?

Percentages are just a place holder and should be adjusted accordingly for play that is better or worse than average.

The better players have the opportunity just like the lessor skilled players to win. In a non-handicap match, the better player will always have the advantage. But, will not always win.

In a handicaped match, the better player has to maintain their level or even play better to win. This should motivate the better play more than in a non-handicap match. But, it seems to work differently. The better players feel they are at the disadvantage right out of the gate.. a normal feeling... been there, done that. And, until recently that's the way I felt. I didn't like handicap tournaments at all. Just because of that disadvantage from the beginning..

Now, I see handicap tournaments as more of a challenge. It seems to keep my game sharper and more exciting. I know the opponent has a better chance of winning, so I have to play at my best at all times. It almost hurts.. I have to think more.. brain is easily pained.. and I have to get use to it.. LOL

Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2002, 11:59 AM
I liked you response. You are correct that there is some politics involved.. and in most cases, slanted towards the players that do spend more money in a PH than the casual player that only shows up for a weekly tournament..

Unfair? maybe, reality? maybe... but it happens.

Vapros
08-17-2002, 12:11 PM
Performances rise and fall - sometimes throughout your list of entries - but playing above your level does not assure a win. I have seen both players playing over their heads, and also below their usual levels. The handicapping is to give each one a chance to win; a better chance than the weaker player would have without handicapping. As I said, if everybody plays exactly as they should, the better players will rise to the top. If you succeed in making them all exactly equal, (which is nearly impossible, for a lot of reasons)there is no incentive remaining to play better.

I think that's the correct approach to handicapping, but I recognize that not everyone will agree.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2002, 12:24 PM
Another good point..

I guess the biggest incitive would to prove the handicapper wrong..

08-17-2002, 03:45 PM
Greetings, Tom:

I think Campbell's classification system does a pretty good job of identifying the skills that separate the men from the boys, but I don't see how a TD can use it to assign players to classes for the purpose of handicapping matches. How is the TD gonna get usable info about the quality of a player's safeties, for example? The only hard data the TD gets now is the number of games each player has won in earlier matches or tournaments.

I like JJ's suggestion about having D's playing D's, C's playing C's, B's playing B's, etc., in separate flights, and then moving each player up a class when he wins a flight.(Hope I'm not misrepresenting your idea, JJ.)

I competed for years in a sport that was organized that way, and the system worked great.

Regards, X

Ralph S.
08-18-2002, 12:46 PM
I like the skill rating chart posted by NH-Steve. It seems to me to be the most accurate way to gauge a players skill both easily and with some accuracy.
Ralph S.