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Gayle in MD
02-01-2010, 09:09 AM
When I post a thread, it would be helpful if my friends here would join me in an effort to prevent the radical right from high-jacking them with their usual BS, lies and distortions.

Hey guys, it would be really helpful if you didn't quote any of their personal attacks, atleast in the threads which I launch on here. I don't care if you respond to them, or not, I'm just asking you not to quote them, in my threads.

I'm tired of watching them reduce our forum to a platform for their BS meanderings, lies, personal attacks and misstatements. I, personally, find them irrelevant, and don't want to SEE anything they write.

Now, this is just a request, but I am tired of their BS, and while I don't read (open) anything THEY post, I see their BS when it's quoted in one of my threads.

It would be nice to see them only posting to one another, in the threads which they start, and the rest of us ignoring them completely, AND their attempts to high-jack ours, with their usual childish lies and slander...but that's your decision.

There is plenty of oppurtunity for the left to blow them away in their own threads, if you wish, lets keep our own threads, or mine, atleast, free of quoting their lies and slander, and end their High-jacking attempts, by not quoting their stupidity in mine, atleast...

Thanks...Just asking for a total ignore, of their RW lies and attacks, and no quotes of their writings, in the threads which I start up.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Love,
Gayle

pooltchr
02-01-2010, 09:16 AM
Yeah, come on, guys! She's drowning here without any help. She can't carry the Obama whack-o extreme leftist banner all by herselt. It's a hard job trying to defend ideals an policies that make no sense.

Help her out. She's a senior citizen fighting a losing battle. Where is your sense of compassion?

Steve

Qtec
02-01-2010, 09:36 AM
Make one point, stick to that point and don't digress.

GOP want deficit reduction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WASHINGTON—<u>President Barack Obama's plan to reduce the deficit faces a tough battle on Capitol Hill, and prospects for a rapid return to fiscal austerity remain slim.</u>

Mr. Obama, responding to growing public concern over deficit spending, will propose as part of his fiscal 2011 budget to freeze basic government spending, outside of national security programs. He also plans to appoint a commission to recommend ways to reduce the deficit.
[DEFICIT]

<u>But Republicans are skeptical.</u> Special-interest groups are lining up to protect their own share of the budget. And even some top Democrats are breaking with their president to float their own ideas on how to tackle the deficit </div></div>

Q.LOL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
02-01-2010, 09:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make one point, stick to that point and don't digress.

GOP want deficit reduction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WASHINGTON—<u>President Barack Obama's plan to reduce the deficit faces a tough battle on Capitol Hill, and prospects for a rapid return to fiscal austerity remain slim.</u>

Mr. Obama, responding to growing public concern over deficit spending, will propose as part of his fiscal 2011 budget to freeze basic government spending, outside of national security programs. He also plans to appoint a commission to recommend ways to reduce the deficit.
[DEFICIT]

<u>But Republicans are skeptical.</u> Special-interest groups are lining up to protect their own share of the budget. And even some top Democrats are breaking with their president to float their own ideas on how to tackle the deficit </div></div>

Q.LOL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif </div></div>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Good move by the President. Should serve as a huge spotlight!

G.

Qtec
02-01-2010, 10:36 AM
The whackiness of the Tea party and the sanity of the Pres.

link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#35153519)
Q

pooltchr
02-01-2010, 10:59 AM
I would like to give Obama credit for this idea, but there are a couple of things to consider.

During the campaign, McCain suggested freezing spending, and Obama said it was a faulty economic idea. So how did it suddenly become a good idea.
And second, the freeze would be at 2009 levels, and as we all know, Obama managed to spend trillions last year on an awful lot of pork. The result of the freeze he is proposing would be extremely insignificant.
He might have done better to freeze spending limits at 2008 levels, before he and the Dems managed to raise the bar even higher with their spending. Of course, if he really wants to help the economy, he probably needs to admit that allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire would stall any economic growth.

Steve

LWW
02-01-2010, 11:19 AM
I have seen your desperate plea for help sister Gayle.

It should be apparent by now that you have no "FRIENDS" on the left ... they are all self centered folks more worried about how they can oppress their employees or making sure they have an ample teat on the state sow from which to feed as they sell their grandchildren into bondage.

Their are those who think better of you and realize their is a beautiful person inside of you who wants to come into the light.

LWW

Gayle in MD
02-01-2010, 11:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The whackiness of the Tea party and the sanity of the Pres.

link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#35153519)
Q </div></div>

They are not going to vote for anything. It doesn't matter how many of their suggestions are included. They will still vote no.
They vote against their own Task Force!

Their goal, is to prevent any Democratic/Obama successes at all, even if it means the country must go deeper into the Bush Pit of financial disaster.

Blackburn and Backmann, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle DUMB. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

eg8r
02-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Why did you stop quoting there? How about farther down the page...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many Republicans are criticizing Mr. Obama's proposed spending freeze as inadequate. "I think the president's proposal on freezing nonsecurity domestic spending is a good first step," House Majority Leader John Boehner (R., Ohio) said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press." "But we can do much better than that." </div></div>

Here is another interesting quote from your article...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doug Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, projects that a spending freeze across all basic government operations, from the Pentagon to national parks, would cut only $10 billion a year from last year's spending level.

</div></div>Yes $10 billion is a lot of money to you and I but isn't Congress incresing our debt ceiling another couple trillion dollars? $10 billion is not all that big when talking in multiple $trillions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Absent a rapid recovery, Republicans and Democrats are going to have to find ways to compromise.

"We're going to have a lot of red ink for a long time to come," said House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D., Md.). "The good news is a country as a rich as America can get there. But it's going to require discipline and political courage."
</div></div>Who here thinks this discipline and courage is possessed by the current crop of politicians?

eg8r

wolfdancer
02-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Gayle, I'm trying to avoid the threads on politics, as the replies by lww, steve, llotter.. are more often used as an excuse to insult, rather then to counter the post itself. One has only to go back and read the last 20, or 30 replies to your posts, to verify that. I appreciate the articles that you bring to the board's attention, but believe that it is a total waste of time to attempt to have any civil discourse with people that attack the poster, and not the message itself.
Your posts normally hold up well on their own merits, and the "lies and slander" on their part, only serve to make them look like bigots, braggarts, Bubbas (imho)
lww is forced to reply to his own self imagined, "really important posts", several times to pump up the reply count.
Steve left because your "hate" posts from Huffpo were tearing down the board as he announced so grandly on here and the brand X site.
He was "forced" to come back here, as in his own words, "he couldn't let you get away with that", THAT being some quoted article that he tries to refute with some baseless mockery.
I guess he feared that others,... less astute then he... would be unduly influenced, and corrupted by the "evil within" your quoted posts.
THEY have already hijacked the board, as most of the threads are begun by them, as well as most of the replies.....it's all for naught though..as the talking heads are just preaching to an empty choir...unless they believe they are eduken each other with the latest sound bytes from Beck, Bill O.

eg8r
02-01-2010, 03:26 PM
[quote]Gayle, I'm trying to avoid the threads on politics,[/quoote]Me too (have not been as successful as you), but the non-political threads are really quiet around here. I wish some of them could sustain more than one or two replies but most usually don't.

Isn't anybody on this forum interested in anything other than politics?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
02-01-2010, 03:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Gayle, I'm trying to avoid the threads on politics, as the replies by lww, steve, llotter.. are more often used as an excuse to insult, rather then to counter the post itself. One has only to go back and read the last 20, or 30 replies to your posts, to verify that. I appreciate the articles that you bring to the board's attention, but believe that it is a total waste of time to attempt to have any civil discourse with people that attack the poster, and not the message itself.
Your posts normally hold up well on their own merits, and the "lies and slander" on their part, only serve to make them look like bigots, braggarts, Bubbas (imho)
lww is forced to reply to his own self imagined, "really important posts", several times to pump up the reply count.
Steve left because your "hate" posts from Huffpo were tearing down the board as he announced so grandly on here and the brand X site.
He was "forced" to come back here, as in his own words, "he couldn't let you get away with that", THAT being some quoted article that he tries to refute with some baseless mockery.
I guess he feared that others,... less astute then he... would be unduly influenced, and corrupted by the "evil within" your quoted posts.
THEY have already hijacked the board, as most of the threads are begun by them, as well as most of the replies.....it's all for naught though..as the talking heads are just preaching to an empty choir...unless they believe they are eduken each other with the latest sound bytes from Beck, Bill O.

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THEY have already hijacked the board, as most of the threads are begun by them, as well as most of the replies.....it's all for naught though..as the talking heads are just preaching to an empty choir...unless they believe they are eduken each other with the latest sound bytes from Beck, Bill O. </div></div>

<span style="color: #000066">You are probably right, friend. </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

wolfdancer
02-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Don't give up posting though....they haven't actually "won" anything...they didn't "beat down" Sonoma, Bob, et al...with any hard hitting commentary....Sonoma, Bob,.. left, because of the vapid, insipid, personally insulting,posts directed towards them as a rebuttal to their own posts.

Qtec
02-02-2010, 05:53 AM
Flashback.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cheney to Treasury: <span style='font-size: 17pt'>"Deficits don't matter"</span>
Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill was told "deficits don't matter" when he warned of a looming fiscal crisis.

O'Neill, fired in a shakeup of Bush's economic team in December 2002, raised objections to a new round of tax cuts and said the president balked at his more aggressive plan to combat corporate crime after a string of accounting scandals because of opposition from "the corporate crowd," a key constituency.

O'Neill said he tried to warn Vice President Dick Cheney that growing budget deficits-expected to top $500 billion this fiscal year alone-posed a threat to the economy. Cheney cut him off. "You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter," he said, according to excerpts. Cheney continued: "We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due." A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired. </div></div>

Fact is, when GW spent money he didn't have, ran up a deficit and increased the Nat Debt, there was no outrage from the GOP?
link (http://zfacts.com/p/318.html)

IMO they, as they have said before, they want Obama to fail. That means more unemployed, more misery for those Americans affected by the CC and the mortgage crisis. As Obama showed in his Q and A the other day, the GOP are full of $hit. They have no real interest in reasonable discussion. They have no solutions except for more tax cuts and deregulation.
Like Obama said, they have demonized the opposition to an extent that rational discussion is no longer possible.

The GOP are attacking him for not fixing the mess THEY presented to him when taking office. They fkd it up and now THEY know better? After taking the country to the brink of disaster NOW they have all the solutions?

With their record, who would possibly believe them?


Q..Geez.

Qtec
02-02-2010, 06:39 AM
Obama nailed it (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/bill-kristol-agrees-obamas-been-doin)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of the key points President Obama made in his back-and-forth with House Republicans seems to be really sticking in the craw of the right-wing pundit class:

Obama: I mean, the fact of the matter is that many of you, if you voted with the administration on something, are politically vulnerable in your home base, in your own party. You've given yourselves very little room to work in a bipartisan fashion, because what you've been telling your constituents is. <u>'This guy's doin' all kinds of crazy stuff that's going to destroy America!'</u>

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>Bill Kristol, yesterday on Fox News Sunday:

Kristol: First of all, I agree with the president. I think he's been doing all kinds of crazy stuff that risks destroying America.</span> But the good news is, a lot of it's been stopped.

Of course, he's not actually agreeing with the President -- but he certainly is proving his point, isn't he?

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Indeed, it points up that it isn't just Republican congressmen telling their constituents that Obama is a radical black Marxist/fascist/nihilist out to destroy America. It's the entire right-wing pundit class -- most of all, nearly the entirety of Fox News and its talkers.</span>

If anything, the congresscritters are just taking their cues from Fox and aping the talking points that flow out of the fetid imaginations of people like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity and Bill Kristol.

And as long as that's the case, well, we wish the president lotsa luck in getting Republican Congressmen to behave any differently. </div></div>

Q

LWW
02-02-2010, 08:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flashback.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cheney to Treasury: <span style='font-size: 17pt'>"Deficits don't matter"</span>
Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill was told "deficits don't matter" when he warned of a looming fiscal crisis.

O'Neill, fired in a shakeup of Bush's economic team in December 2002, raised objections to a new round of tax cuts and said the president balked at his more aggressive plan to combat corporate crime after a string of accounting scandals because of opposition from "the corporate crowd," a key constituency.

O'Neill said he tried to warn Vice President Dick Cheney that growing budget deficits-expected to top $500 billion this fiscal year alone-posed a threat to the economy. Cheney cut him off. "You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter," he said, according to excerpts. Cheney continued: "We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due." A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired. </div></div>

Fact is, when GW spent money he didn't have, ran up a deficit and increased the Nat Debt, there was no outrage from the GOP?
link (http://zfacts.com/p/318.html)

IMO they, as they have said before, they want Obama to fail. That means more unemployed, more misery for those Americans affected by the CC and the mortgage crisis. As Obama showed in his Q and A the other day, the GOP are full of $hit. They have no real interest in reasonable discussion. They have no solutions except for more tax cuts and deregulation.
Like Obama said, they have demonized the opposition to an extent that rational discussion is no longer possible.

The GOP are attacking him for not fixing the mess THEY presented to him when taking office. They fkd it up and now THEY know better? After taking the country to the brink of disaster NOW they have all the solutions?

With their record, who would possibly believe them?


Q..Geez. </div></div>

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> Under a republichicken congress, spending and debt as a percentage of GDP shrank.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> The explosion in spending began when the demokooks took control of congress in January, 2007 ... which included freshman senator Barack Hussein Obama Jt\r.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> The POTUS does not set the budget, congress does.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> The "mess" Obama "inherited" was a creation of his own party.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> Senator Obama voted for every bit of it, and lamented that it wasn't enough.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> Senator Obama left the campaign trail to be the point man in the TARP program.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> None of this matters to you because you will give Obama a pass because you are told to give him a pass.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'><u>FACT:</u></span> You wouldn't recognize a fact if it smacked you across the arse with a boat oar.

LWW

Qtec
02-02-2010, 09:16 AM
http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FACT: Under a republichicken congress, spending and debt as a percentage of GDP shrank. </div></div>

Really?

Are you really claiming that the last 8 years of the Bush presidency was all about the Dems getting what they wanted?

Check out the gif. See the red bits?


Q

LWW
02-02-2010, 02:01 PM
<u>FACT:</u> You lack the cognitive skills to even understand what you read.

<u>FACT:</u> A republichicken congress ran the budgets from FY 1994 through FY 2007.

<u>FACT:</u> Since the demokooks have ran the deficit, FY's 2008/09/10, the average quarterly deficit was higher than the average yearly deficit under the prior congress.

<u>FACT:</u> You believed that the republichickens were grossly overspending ... simply because you were told to believe that, BTW I think they were also.

<u>FACT:</u> You believe Obama is fiscally responsible, solely because you are told you believe that.

<u>FACT:</u> You will not understand a word of this because the party didn't tell it to you.

<u>FACT:</u> The "RED BITS" verify what I'm telling you.

<u>FACT:</u> In your world view "TRUTH" is an entirely malleable concept and you only perceive it as the party tells you to perceive it ... subject to change without notice at their sole discretion.

<u>FACT:</u> You still wouldn't recognize a fact if was driving over you in a Mack.

LWW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FACT: Under a republichicken congress, spending and debt as a percentage of GDP shrank. </div></div>

Really?

Are you really claiming that the last 8 years of the Bush presidency was all about the Dems getting what they wanted?

Check out the gif. See the red bits?


Q

</div></div>

eg8r
02-02-2010, 03:46 PM
qtip, why didn't you quote the entire article or offer the source? I am sorry you acted like a schmuck but the FACT is you cannot handle the facts. Obama's spending freeze does not do enough and it is the Reps pointing it out. Makes you cringe when you are wrong I know it. Maybe you could do some more googling and look backwards, I guess that makes you feel better.

eg8r

LWW
02-03-2010, 05:23 AM
Marcino?

LWW

Qtec
02-03-2010, 06:34 AM
Where was the outrage from the fiscally responsible GOP when GW spent and spent and spent?

You know, GW didn't have to give the top 5% ONE THIRD of the total tax cuts that he paid for by BORROWING.

Q

pooltchr
02-03-2010, 08:33 AM
Ed, myself and other conservatives on this board repeatedly denounced the fiscal policies of GW on many occasions.

Now, where is YOUR outrage over Obama doing the same thing???

Steve

eg8r
02-03-2010, 09:32 AM
What a moronic post of yours and proof you have no desire to be honest. I guess your querying skills work only in google. Do you need a lesson on how to use the search function here on the board. All the righties have stated from the near beginning of W's first term that we did not agree with his spending. Actually, I used to joke that he was more a Democrat that he ever was a Republican. I have stated many times that he was NOT a Conservative no matter which definition you used. Your blatant lies or embarassing memory are shameful.

Now, man up and answer the question.

eg8r

Qtec
02-03-2010, 09:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> FACT: A republichicken congress ran the budgets from FY 1994 through FY 2007.</div></div>

Thank you.

Q

Qtec
02-03-2010, 09:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All the righties have stated from the near beginning of W's first term that we did not agree with his spending. </div></div>

Did you protest at Town Halls about the GOP takeover? Were you or the Tea Party loons out on the streets protesting about GW,s redistribution of the wealth.....to the rich? Or the fact that he abused the USCON? Or that he reversed a centuries old American ideal, ie we do not torture?
Or that ANY person has the right to face their accuser in a court of Law? etc etc etc plus any numbers of human rights abuses perpetrated by Bush and Co?








Stop bitching, you had you chance to stand up for common decency when GW was in power........you blew it. Your opinion on these matters is tainted. You had your chance to stand up for what is right..........you blew it.

Q

Qtec
02-03-2010, 09:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a moronic post of yours and proof </div></div>

I am FBI. I want to tap your phone. I have no reasonable cause to suspect you of a crime, can I do that?

What does the USCON say about that? What does Bush say? You are the expert right?

Q

LWW
02-03-2010, 09:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where was the outrage from the fiscally responsible GOP when GW spent and spent and spent?

You know, GW didn't have to give the top 5% ONE THIRD of the total tax cuts that he paid for by BORROWING.

Q </div></div>

If that's the truth ... which it isn't ... why did US federal revenue expand faster than either inflation or economic growth?

As a follow up question ... if Clinton ran a surplus, why did the US debt rise 8 years in a row?

LWW

LWW
02-03-2010, 09:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a moronic post of yours and proof </div></div>

I am FBI. I want to tap your phone. I have no reasonable cause to suspect you of a crime, can I do that?

What does the USCON say about that? What does Bush say? You are the expert right?

Q </div></div>

No you couldn't ... the COTUS forbids ... and Bush agreed.

Anything else I can help you with?

You seem confused.

LWW

Qtec
02-03-2010, 10:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">f Clinton ran a surplus, <u>why did the US debt rise 8 years in a row?</u>

LWW </div></div>

Are you so friggin dumb????????


Isn't it obvious???????????..........<span style='font-size: 20pt'>BUSH.</span>...............OMG

Q

LWW
02-03-2010, 10:26 AM
You made the claims ... back them up.

What's that?

You can't?

Nobody thought you could.

LWW

pooltchr
02-03-2010, 11:31 AM
Q. Are you saying that because you don't think there was enough outcry against Bush fiscal policies that you believe Obama should get a free pass for expanding them???????


I haven't heard you complaining about anything Obama is doing, and your only excuse is "but Bush"

Steve

LWW
02-03-2010, 12:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">f Clinton ran a surplus, <u>why did the US debt rise 8 years in a row?</u>

LWW </div></div>

Are you so friggin dumb????????


Isn't it obvious???????????..........<span style='font-size: 20pt'>BUSH.</span>...............OMG

Q </div></div>

So ... your answer for why the US debt rose every year of the Clinton administration, in spite of the lie of a "SURPLUS" being spoon fed to you, is Bush?

That statement is so completely wrong headed and Obamatronic in nature that I missed it at first and assumed that it had to be something more rational than that.

Obviously my wording was too complicated for you to follow.

Let me try again.

Every year of the Clinton administration, the cumulative national debt rose even though he was claiming a surplus was being generated. How do you balance out those two contradictory things? Think Q ... you CAN do it.

LWW

eg8r
02-03-2010, 01:07 PM
Is changing the subject intentional or is your inability to follow along due to things beyond your means?

eg8r

eg8r
02-03-2010, 01:08 PM
Again, do you have a mental problem and cannot follow along, or are your diversions on purpose?

eg8r