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acuerate
02-02-2010, 04:52 AM
As you all know tip size is a big issue and it's interesting to compare all billiard disciplines regarding the tip size.

Here an overview :

Snooker is generally playd with tipsize +/- 9.5 mm
Billiards (carom) is playd with tipsize +/- 11.75 mm
Pool is playd with tipsize +/- 12.5 mm

Now if you look at the size of the balls which is relevant for the tipsize then pooltips are enormous compared with snooker and carom. The question is : what's the ideal size for a tip to play pool and what are the criteria!

I list them here :

a. power
b. control
c. spin
d. playability (touch, feel)

Now for all those who are playing with 12.5 or even 12 mm tips I would advise to try 11mm or even 10 mm tips as we advise on our cues.

11 mm tips will give you :

a. more control
b. more spin (as the tip is smaller)
c. more touch

I'm happy and interested in your feedback and experiences.

Enjoy the game,

Johan
Acuerate team

Pask
02-02-2010, 06:03 AM
I recall that I'm not an expert player. So I will give here my point of you but don't take it as Bible! Also, The following is just my own oipinion and comply with my personal tastes. After all, whatever the tip you use, if you feel good with it should be the right one to you then.

First of all, to my mind, there is another factor, usually going with tip size, which is also important : the taper shape of the shaft. In pool cues, there are different shapes for tapers, and, as far as I'm concerned, the personal choice for a tip size also goes with the taper : the smaller the tip, the more different the taper.

My shaft on my Joss has a 13-mm tip, with a thick kinda 'old school' taper, which is almost quite straight. I have always prefered tips around 13mm (my previous cue had a 12.75-mm tip with a more 'curved' shaft taper). Before changing my play cue, when I was looking around for information and try, I had the opportunity to test some shafts with tips like 12.5, and under 12 mm. But I did not feel comfortable at all with them.

Here are my reasons : first, the taper. Why this element first? Well it's simple : before testing if your hit would be good or not with the tip, you prepare your shot with several backwings. And the taper is the thing you test first as you feel it sliding on your bridge hand. With a cue having a small tip, I feel too much difference when sliding the shaft on my bridge hand. The taper is fat near the joint, and I feel a quick difference to very thin near when getting near the upper 1/3 of it. This really annoys me and disturbs my play.

Now, the tip. In my opinion, using a small tip isn't that versatile in pool, because we play many kinds of games. And some of them will require specific stroke or hits for most of the shots. Here again I'm not a high-end player, but you don't hit or control cue ball the same way at 9-ball and at 14.1 game for instance. Keeping these example, a small tip would be OK for 14.1 because you mostly play close position play and soft hits; whereas at 9-ball, you often have to make the cue ball run long distance pathes, and then you use a long shaft for the stroke, you hit differently and use sidespin another way as well. Then a large tip is, to my mind more appropriate.

As far as I'm concerned I feel good with the same tip, 13mm, at any game. I guess this is a more versatile tip. Also, I think that if classic pool tips are 12-13mm wide, with a big tip/ball size ratio compared to other billiards as you said, it's because there should be a good reason for that. Each billard game have it's own gear and specific stroke in general. You don't hit balls the same way whether you play caroms, snooker/English 8-ball or pool. The storke is very different at snooker and pool for instance. Same for the stance. Pool storke looks very 'flexible' (forgive me if I don't use the right appropriate word, hope you understand), and the grip is very loose. When I tested pool cues with smaller tips, it really disturbed my storke for example.

However, I'm sure that smaller tips enable players to be more sharp on cue ball. If many serious pool cue brands provide such diameters, here also it's because there should be a good reason! But personnally I don't need that. I can deal with precision with a 13-mm tip, maybe a different way compared to someone who will use a smaller tip. But it'll be possible to be precise.

For me, comfort in stroke (good feeling for the player regarding taper and tip) is the key to a good stroke. And it is then a question of taste. There's neither remedy nor miracle concerning tips - or the one inventing him should already be rich! There are just good ones, of different kinds. Anyway, it's always a good player who will shoot good pool, the quality of the gear will help but won't shoot for him!

Billy_Bob
02-02-2010, 06:55 AM
First is what *shape* tip is best? (Dime)

Second is that this dictates a certain size tip! Too big and you will never get a dime shape. Too small and the tip will not last very long before it needs to be replaced.

Dime shape and 12.75mm is the best if you ask me.

Predator 12.75mm...
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_314_2_shaft.php

From following link: "Predator research has clearly shown that a dime radius (or shape of a dime) will produce 5 percent to 10 percent less cue ball deflection than the more commonly used nickel shape"...
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_tech_tips.php

On tip shape...
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/jan08.pdf

Pask
02-02-2010, 07:21 AM
Dime shape is fine to me as well. But, for the rest (tip size and taper), I think it would depend on the player. Look, here's a simple example : the way you hit with sidespin is personal, you can teach the principles, and then each player, via practicing will find how he/she will deal with it, according to personal gear, stroke, character etc. So there's not a unique solution, just several options and it's up to everyone to find the right combo.

Whatever, it is obvious that Predator will say their euqipment is the best because they have to sell their gear to run their business. I'd rather advise people to ask players around them rather than looking at manufacturers information. Of course, if you read all of them, everyone is the best!

Bambu
02-02-2010, 08:17 AM
I dont know about an 11mm tip giving more control and better touch. Thats even smaller than a Z-2. And some guys control the ball better with a fat shaft. You will get a little more draw from a skinny shaft, and a bit more overall spin too. But that doesnt always add up to better control, its all just preference.

One of my friends plays with a 15 mm. The cue looks like it can be used to hit baseballs, but there are very few shots that cant be made with it. And the guy shoots real good, won the predator ABCD tour with it.

Rich R.
02-02-2010, 08:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you all know tip size is a big issue and it's interesting to compare all billiard disciplines regarding the tip size.
</div></div>

"TIP SIZE DOESN'T MATTER!!!

That's my story and I'm sticking with it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Ok, let me put that in different terms.
Tip size, like almost everything else concerning cues, is a personal choice. Everyone will have their own ideal size. I think this has been demonstrated by the other posts in this thread.
BTW, I like a 13mm tip with a nickel shape.

acuerate
02-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Interesting feedback from you guys!

Yet personal preference is an interesting subject. Let us compare with tennis. 20 yr. ago when I was playing tennis, my personal preference was a tradtional wooden wilson racket. But tennis rackets evolved to oversize using other materials which were LIGHTER and therefor you could hit the ball harder and with more precision with the SAME effort!
This became so common that nowadays nobody still plays with the old small wooden racket.

But were are we with pool, snooker and caromsticks ??? Time has stood still and we're still playing with the same stuff we used to play 30 years ago. Why ?
Simply because, besides Predator and a few other companies such as Acuerate, did the effort to develop new technologies.

Further more : if you play with an 11 mm shaft for 3-4 weeks you would NEVER return to a 13 mm tipsize. Your potting percentage will increase and your screw shots will be much more effective with lesser effort. Lesser effort means : less body movement and more control.

I've been playing billiards & snooker and occasionaly pool for about 34 years and with a standard pool cue I cannot pot a ball because of my bad technique. I'm using a 10mm :-) shaft and I'm potting balls from all over the place with it.

To be objective, I think you need an open mind and try out the various tip diameters.

Thanks for all your interesting feedback on this topic.

Enjoy the game,

Johan
Acuerate team

JJFSTAR
02-02-2010, 11:23 AM
Acuerate you have made a truly amazing discovery!!! How simple and logical it is. Take down the diameter of the tip and presto the result is more action, control and feel. The world should be informed. The first body that should be informed is the BCA (Billiard congress of America). Second should be the pool schools around the world i.e. the billiard college of NC, Allison Fishers new school, Dead stroke University, The BCA school and certified BCA instructors etc. etc.

Next should be professional pool players, I mean its actually pretty silly that they donít know already. This is so that the world may witness even better pool that is played today! Most of them have Websites, facebook or Myspace pages so contacting them is really easy just to get started and pardon the players that I spell their names incorrectly but Googleing them should correct the spelling. Thorsten Hhomann, Alison Fisher, Janette Lee, Mika Immonen, Karen Korr, Guy Young Kim, Phong Pang Chow, Allen Hopkins (especially this one because he is so well connected and is an organizer here in the USA), Efren Rayes, Francisco Bustamonte, Tony Drago, Shane van Boning etc. etc. I am sure there are complete lists if you look for them.

I shoot with an I3 that is 11.75mm. I am going to call McDermott and ask if they can come up with an 11mm or less maybe 10.5mm or so. Acuerate thank you very much for the info!!! And also welcome to the board.

Tony_in_MD
02-02-2010, 11:55 AM
Taking tip diameter out without discussing taper is an issue onto itself. Tell me what kind of taper are on snooker or carom cues with those small tip sizes?

Now onto my thoughts on Tip diameter

It does not increase spin or offer you more control or touch.

The contact point of two tips (one 11 mm and one 13 mm) with the same radius is the same. The only thing that can affect spin is your stroke. You either have one, or you don't.

One advantage to a 11 mm diameter shaft is the smaller shaft may help the player see the contact point on the cueball better.

The only other advantage would be on draw shots (as you term screw) a smaller tip diameter whould help the shooter hit lower on the cueball than you could with a 13 mm tip. As on a draw shot it is the upper part of the tip contacting the ball, the lower you can get the tip (without hitting the table prior to the ball) the more draw spin you can get (again with a good stroke)

Beyond these examples, I cannot think of any other advantages. The problems assocated with playing with an 11 mm shaft with a pro-taper are too numerous.

Bambu
02-02-2010, 12:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting feedback from you guys!

Yet personal preference is an interesting subject. Let us compare with tennis. 20 yr. ago when I was playing tennis, my personal preference was a tradtional wooden wilson racket. But tennis rackets evolved to oversize using other materials which were LIGHTER and therefor you could hit the ball harder and with more precision with the SAME effort!
This became so common that nowadays nobody still plays with the old small wooden racket.

But were are we with pool, snooker and caromsticks ??? Time has stood still and we're still playing with the same stuff we used to play 30 years ago. Why ?
Simply because, besides Predator and a few other companies such as Acuerate, did the effort to develop new technologies.

Further more : if you play with an 11 mm shaft for 3-4 weeks you would NEVER return to a 13 mm tipsize. Your potting percentage will increase and your screw shots will be much more effective with lesser effort. Lesser effort means : less body movement and more control.

I've been playing billiards & snooker and occasionaly pool for about 34 years and with a standard pool cue I cannot pot a ball because of my bad technique. I'm using a 10mm :-) shaft and I'm potting balls from all over the place with it.

To be objective, I think you need an open mind and try out the various tip diameters.

Thanks for all your interesting feedback on this topic.

Enjoy the game,

Johan
Acuerate team
</div></div>

You say you cant make a ball with a regular shaft because you have poor technique. But with a 10 mm you make shots all over the place? Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that a 10 mm shaft can fix bad technique on its own.

Tony_in_MD
02-02-2010, 01:07 PM
It is always the hammer, never the carpenter.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Rich R.
02-02-2010, 04:00 PM
Guys you are missing the point. The OP is really interested in selling us his product. In other words, this thread is nothing but SPAM. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

If you click on his name you will get a pop up menu. From there you can select his homepage and you will find that his screen name is actually the name of his company.

I would like to remind the OP that product sales are not allowed on this forum.

Tony_in_MD
02-02-2010, 04:19 PM
I figured as much see my post in his other thread about table conditions.

bradb
02-02-2010, 06:17 PM
He suckered us in Rich, but it does bring up a lot of different opinions on tips that frequent the rounds.

I played snooker for years with a standard snooker cue. About 7 years ago I dropped snooker and went to pool. The small tip justy did'nt feel right on the larger balls... So I went to the standard 12.5 cue pool cue.

About a year ago I tried playing some snooker with my old snooker cue and I could'nt make a ball!.... so I drug out my pool cue and started potting again! I took a lot of razing from my snooker mates on that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

I guess the bottom line is... it's what ever you feel comfortable with, as you said.

I imagine if I went back to snooker for good, I would switch back. -Brad

Rich R.
02-02-2010, 09:17 PM
Brad, he did bring up some valid points. However, when the OP kept returning to the same points, it made me suspicious and that is when I started looking around.

Regarding the cue tip size, I'm not the best source for the discussion. I started using 13mm as a teen and have continued using that size for the many years since. Although I have tried some smaller sizes since, for short periods of time, I am most comfortable with the 13mm. That comfort level probably comes from many years of use more than anything else.

Qtec
02-03-2010, 05:31 AM
LOL

Q

Qtec
02-03-2010, 05:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 11 mm tips will give you :

a. more control
b. more spin (as the tip is smaller)
c. more touch </div></div>

Well,
a. is a matter of opinion.
b. is just not true.
c. is again a matter of opinion.

Q

Qtec
02-03-2010, 06:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Let us compare with tennis. 20 yr. ago when I was playing tennis, my personal preference was a tradtional wooden wilson racket. </div></div>

Mmmmm........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By 1980, racquets could pretty much be divided into two classes: inexpensive racquets made of aluminum and expensive ones made of graphite or a composite. Wood no longer offered anything that another material couldn't provide better -- except for antique and collectible value. </div></div>

So 10 years after wooden racquets became obsolete you were still playing with one?

Q /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Qtec
02-03-2010, 06:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 20pt'>I've been playing billiards & snooker and occasionaly pool for about 34 years and with a standard pool cue I cannot pot a ball because of my bad technique.</span> I'm using a 10mm :-) shaft and I'm potting balls from all over the place with it. </div></div>

I admire your honesty.

Q...are you not the head top coach in Holland?

Rich R.
02-03-2010, 07:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style='font-size: 20pt'>I've been playing billiards & snooker and occasionaly pool for about 34 years and with a standard pool cue I cannot pot a ball because of my bad technique.</span> I'm using a 10mm :-) shaft and I'm potting balls from all over the place with it. </div></div>

I admire your honesty.

Q...are you not the head top coach in Holland? </div></div>

If he is the top coach in Holland, is it smart for him to admit, on the internet, that he has "bad technique"?

Bambu
02-03-2010, 09:23 AM
Its so slow in here, I want him to come back!

acuerate
02-03-2010, 09:30 AM
Hi my virtual pool friends,

It's not me who is the national coach but my business partner Chris Henry and he has an awesome technique :-) He is currently coaching in Bahrein and Quatar as he's the national coach of Bahrein, Austria as well as the coach of the Nr. 1 French, Belgium, German, Brasilian playars ... :-)
This for your info.
I have a tendency to put left hand side spin on the ball and with a 12-13 mm shaft it's very hard for me to play a screw shot. I simply miss the pot as the ball deflects too much.

I have a rubbish technique but on the other hand I gained great insight in billiard games because of my partnership with Chris Henry who is considered the best snooker coach in the world. We developped Acuerate together.

Hope this clarfies more,

Enjoy the game,

Johan

Qtec
02-03-2010, 10:17 AM
I know Chris.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just posted a new blog entry about my upcoming trip to The Netherlands to go train with Johan Ruysink.

Hi Liz,

We are involved in top professional coaching (Snooker)

Thanks for your reply.

Johan
Acuerate Team

Hi my virtual pool friends,

It's not me who is the national coach but my business partner Chris Henry

From the KNNB site.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Bondscoaches:

Pool:
Johan Ruijsink</span>
tel. 0032 14 38 87 38
e-mail: ntsc.johan@skynet.be.org </div></div>

I'm confused.

Q

Qtec
02-03-2010, 10:18 AM
No reply?
I thought you were going to teach us something!

Q

Pask
02-03-2010, 11:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To be objective, I think you need an open mind and try out the various tip diameters.</div></div>

I'm sorry sir, but I think I and other people here have been fairly open minded by sharing our points of view here and on other topics as well, and particularly those you've participated to elsewhere on this forum. However, English isn't my mother language, and I might have made some mistakes leading to some misunderstanding. But, at reading other fellow pool players' opinions here, I guess my words haven't been misunderstood.

It took me time to express myself here in the most correct English I can write, and above all, the most important to me, you and other pool/billiards enthusiasts here, to share my opinion. I'm sorry but if there's someone narrow-minded here, then it should be you.

You think you can shoot good pool because you have a long-time experience in snooker? Fine, then keep playing snooker then. You think your cues are the best? Fine, then keep playing with them but I don't think it'd be worth trying to sell them with such an arrogant way to advertise would-be customers.

Please stop trying to put all billiards in the same bucket, as we say in French. Every kind of billiard is different, regarding the games or the equipment. Even in caroms, you don't use the same cues or shafts whether you play free game, 3-cushion, frame game or artistic for instance. I've come across many 3-cushion players who use a 13mm tip by the way, or even up to 14, while others, for the same game would rather go for a 12 or 12.5. Other point : the stroke is very different from one type of billiard to one another. At pool, you can keep a stance similar to the one generally used in snooker but you'll have to modify your stroke from a very 'rigid' gesture to a more 'flexible' one. A change would be necessary for grip as well. Why? Because you don't shoot the same way, because of the game maybe or the equipment (cloth, balls etc). I'm not an expert, but I guess you should watch more pool players and look at them more often instead of getting to them to show off your false knowledge and try to sell them your stuff by the way. You have a lack of technique? Then please help yourself and take advantage of the replies here to your questions to earn more information, no problem about it. But if you use these questions to impose your one-way opinions, then please leave us alone sir.

If you are ever interested in pool, you are always welcome as long as you treat pool player with a minimum of respect. I don't play snooker very often because I want to focus on pool as much as I can to improve alot. But whenever I play this game, I obviously never start by criticising players and/or their gear or techniques. This is simply rude and unsportsmanlike. Whatever the equipment, it's the player's skills that prevail eventually : when you shoot billiards, all business is on the table, whether you got a high-end cue or a simple house stick.

I'm certainly not a top player, nor an expert. But just to inform you, since cue sticks were invented, there have been hundreds of patents granted for joints, shafts, butts and above all tips. The major change was the invention of the leather tip by French captain Maingau. This was a tremendous invention, a kind of revolution because it did really help people discover new techniques in billiards and go further in the game. This may be because of a similar reason that tennis players quit wooden rackets and changed from cat guts to nylon for racket strings. - no need to be a tennis player to understand that by the way /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

That said, I won't waste my time replying your questions anymore.

Last piece of advice : you should change your way of advertising to a smarter one.

acuerate
02-04-2010, 07:39 AM
Hi Bambu,

what do you mean specifically with 'more control' ?

thanks for your reply,

Johan

acuerate
02-04-2010, 07:45 AM
Dear Pascal,

thanks for your elaborate reply. Yes, may be my thread was here and there a bit challenging, but surely not inteded to offend anybody. I'm just curious about the way pool players think and why they take certan things for granted.
I agree on your point of view on tennis rackets ... I playd 10 years competition in Belgium and indeed we use to play with 'cat guts' ...
But when it comes to potting balls : what's the difference between potting balls on a pool table or snooker table beside the fact that the balls are a bit bigger ?

Thanks for your reply,

Johan

acuerate
02-04-2010, 07:49 AM
Lol Qtec!

I started playing with wood, then metal, then composite, ... in fact I playd 20 years of tennis and always used the latest technology. We have seen that materials are getting lighter and lighter in various sports : tennis, squash (i'm playing competition squash now, ... the reason is that you can swing FASTER and therefor create more momentum;
Sometimes players think that a heavier cue gives them more 'power'. This is not true at all. Obviously you need a minimum 'mass' ... but pool players using 19.5 and more : too heavy ! that's our opinion.

Take care,

Johan

Bambu
02-04-2010, 07:54 AM
Better, more accurate manipulation of the cue ball. (Controlling your rock.)

acuerate
02-04-2010, 08:05 AM
Hi Qtec,

I see you know Chris.
Well he's me friend for 20 years and my business partner. He used to be my snooker coach when I was playing in the first division in Belgium about 19 years ago. It was the big boom of snooker. Together we developped Acuerate.

This for your information,

Johan

Qtec
02-04-2010, 10:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's not me who is the national coach but my business partner Chris Henry and he has an awesome technique</div></div>

My mistake.

Just to be clear, you are not,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bondscoach:

Pool:
Johan Ruijsink
tel.
e-mail: </div></div>

Q

Soflasnapper
02-04-2010, 12:09 PM
Quite right to say you can't easily separate out the tip diameter effect from another variable, the shaft taper.

My progression based on shafts, not so much tip diameters, was Predator 314, 314 squared (2), Z squared (2), OB-1, OB-2. The Z-2 was my first smaller diameter tip, which I liked, but still preferred the original OB-1 with a somewhat larger tip size.

However I now way prefer the OB-2 with the smallest tip (again, with its strong taper shaft characteristics). When that shaft was in the shop, I briefly re-tried the OB-1, but it seemed huge and unwieldly somehow, so my backup was the Z-2, a closer size match to the OB-2 (and close to the same hit action, although the vibration is different).

All that said, my preference is a vague one, in that I cannot really tell you I find better accuracy or easier draw with the smaller tip size. I may, and that may be why I prefer it, but it's not that obvious or a night and day thing.

Frankly, I got more apparent 'bang' out of the 'new cue stick' placebo effect back in the day than any obvious improvement from the smaller tip, and that effect was entirely psychological imo.

Not that there isn't some better play for me with the smaller tip size-- prolly the reason I prefer it, but it is slight and hard to notice for me.

dr_dave
02-04-2010, 12:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you all know tip size is a big issue
...
I'm happy and interested in your feedback and experiences.</div></div>FYI, I have lots and information and resources addressing this question, including lists of advantages and disadvantages of different size and shape tips, here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html#size

Check it out,
Dave

dr_dave
02-04-2010, 12:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From following link: "Predator research has clearly shown that a dime radius (or shape of a dime) will produce 5 percent to 10 percent less cue ball deflection than the more commonly used nickel shape"...
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_tech_tips.php</div></div>I've never tested this directly, so I'm not sure it is correct or not, but one possible explanation is: If you remove more tip material by rounding it down to a dime shape, the endmass and squirt of the cue will be less.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On tip shape...
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/jan08.pdf</div></div>Thank you for linking to this article. FYI, I have additional info on this topic here (under "size"):
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html

Regards,
Dave

Pask
02-05-2010, 12:28 PM
Aaaah! Thanks very much Dave! I've been wondering when you would pop up in here! Finally, here you come with your very good articles. Feels like the Cavalry coming up for rescue /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

dr_dave
02-05-2010, 12:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pask</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aaaah! Thanks very much Dave! I've been wondering when you would pop up in here! Finally, here you come with your very good articles. Feels like the Cavalry coming up for rescue /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </div></div>Thanks Pask. I'm always around.

Catch you later,
Dave

Scott Lee
02-05-2010, 11:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First is what *shape* tip is best? (Dime)

Second is that this dictates a certain size tip! Too big and you will never get a dime shape. Too small and the tip will not last very long before it needs to be replaced.

Dime shape and 12.75mm is the best if you ask me.

Predator 12.75mm...
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_314_2_shaft.php

From following link: "Predator research has clearly shown that a dime radius (or shape of a dime) will produce 5 percent to 10 percent less cue ball deflection than the more commonly used nickel shape"...
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_tech_tips.php

On tip shape...
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/jan08.pdf </div></div>

Billy Bob...I don't care what Predator, or anybody else says, tip shape is a bunch of horse puckey. The Jacksonville Experiments proved that the size of the contact patch between the CB and tip is extremely small (about 3mm). This did not significantly change regardless of tip size, shape, or hardness. Regarding what the OP said about games played, and "normal" tip size, good players can play with anything. My high run in snooker (122) was accomplished with a 14mm tip, which was the professional norm back in the 70's.

Scott Lee

dr_dave
02-06-2010, 10:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Jacksonville Experiments proved that the size of the contact patch between the CB and tip is extremely small (about 3mm). This did not significantly change regardless of tip size, shape, or hardness.</div></div>Scott,

This doesn't sound right to me, and I don't remember reading this in Bob's Jacksonville Project articles, and I don't remember seeing it on the Jacksonville video. Maybe Bob can chime in.

A firm hit with a soft flatter tip will certainly have a larger contact patch than a soft hit with an extremely hard and rounder tip ... right?

FYI, I have information on the Jacksonville Project, including links to Bob's articles, here:

Jacksonville Project and Other High-speed Video Studies (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/videos.html#Jacksonville)

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
02-06-2010, 10:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The Jacksonville Experiments proved that the size of the contact patch between the CB and tip is extremely small (about 3mm)..</div></div>

Be careful here, I *have* the Jacksonville videos and have watched them.

I did not see ANY experimenting with different sized tips or different shaped tips in these videos. (Actually I was disappointed with this.)

Do you have these videos?

wolfdancer
02-06-2010, 10:58 AM
re: tip size....
I always leave 15%, unless the service is very good, and then I'll bump it up to 20%

bradb
02-06-2010, 11:23 AM
On tip shape... [/quote] "normal" tip size, good players can play with anything. My high run in snooker (122) was accomplished with a 14mm tip, which was the professional norm back in the 70's.
Scott Lee [/quote]

Scott I agree in general on your statement, but I have been playing snooker since the late 70's and I can't recall anybody playing with a 14mm tip? Of course up here we play on english 12' tables with 3-1/4 to 3-1/2" pockets and most snooker cues are 8 to 10mm.

I've had a century run but don't think I could run 3 snooker balls with a 14mm tip. That seems extreme to me.

cushioncrawler
02-07-2010, 01:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott I agree in general on your statement, but I have been playing snooker since the late 70's and I can't recall anybody playing with a 14mm tip? Of course up here we play on english 12' tables with 3-1/4 to 3-1/2" pockets and most snooker cues are 8 to 10mm.
I've had a century run but don't think I could run 3 snooker balls with a 14mm tip. That seems extreme to me.</div></div>A few years ago i woz talking to a guy from adelaide who won the state snooker championship uzing a Predator pool cue -- he haz made a 141 with this cue -- and in the same year 2 snooker players played off in the final of the state pool championship both uzing snooker cues.
madMac.

bradb
02-07-2010, 12:50 PM
cushioncrawler] A few years ago i woz talking to a guy from adelaide who won the state snooker championship uzing a Predator pool cue -- he haz made a 141 with this cue -- and in the same year 2 snooker players played off in the final of the state pool championship both uzing snooker cues.
madMac. [/quote]

Mac, I've played snooker with my pool cue (13mm) and it is'nt a problem, but a 14mm? I'm sure it can be done, but why so big? -Brad

cushioncrawler
02-07-2010, 02:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A few years ago i woz talking to a guy from adelaide who won the state snooker championship uzing a Predator pool cue -- he haz made a 141 with this cue -- and in the same year 2 snooker players played off in the final of the state pool championship both uzing snooker cues.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, I've played snooker with my pool cue (13mm) and it is'nt a problem, but a 14mm? I'm sure it can be done, but why so big?</div></div>Brad -- That predator would hav been 12.5mm or 13mm -- hiz best break with it woz 141 (in comp i think).
madMac.

bradb
02-07-2010, 06:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That predator would hav been 12.5mm or 13mm -- hiz best break with it woz 141 (in comp i think).
madMac. </div></div>

Thats more like it Mac, a 14mm shaft would feel like a broom handle, although Rich posted a story of a top player he knew who could run a table with one. Brad

Scott Lee
02-10-2010, 07:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Mac, I've played snooker with my pool cue (13mm) and it is'nt a problem, but a 14mm? I'm sure it can be done, but why so big? -Brad </div></div>

Brad...Many American pro players played with a 14mm tip back in the 70's. It was the norm, and that's why I played with one. Nowadays I prefer a much smaller tip, but the point of the comment was that tip size doesn't matter when you can pocket balls, and gain position (whether on any size pool table or snooker table).

Scott Lee

bradb
02-11-2010, 06:44 PM
Yes I agree, it is proven by all the variations of players world wide with their choices of cues and shafts.

acuerate
02-16-2010, 02:10 AM
I agree with Bradb and Scott Lee to a certan degree!
Don't forget that we are talking about consistency here. Missing one shot because you play a shot with a fraction unintentional side spin can cost you a match. Under high pressure it's very difficult to play smooth and that's the reason why (for instance in snooker) players sometimes miss very important pots which they wouldn't miss once if they play the same shot 100 times in practice.
One of the reasons is that their 'technique' 'cracks up' and their swing (arc) tends to differentiate from their standard technique (which is subconsciously programmed). This causes different degrees of untintential spin compared with their regular technique and causes the cue ball to deflect more.

This is one of the main reasons why it's much more easy to play consistant with a low deflection cue. The difference in deflection will be much less even if you hit a bit more or less off center.

I think this should be clear to everybody who understands cue ball physics.

Enjoy the game,

Johan

Boyakasha
03-31-2010, 05:46 AM
Just how much rubbish is this Johan writing...?

cushioncrawler
03-31-2010, 02:29 PM
I reckon that some will benefit from a low deflection cue and some wont.
I am getting four cheap 13mm sneaky petes -- and a variety of spare tips -- and i will see how theze go on a 12' table.
The tips will cost me more than the cues -- koz tips are more important.
madMac.

dr_dave
03-31-2010, 02:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reckon that some will benefit from a low deflection cue and some wont.</div></div>Agreed.

FYI, I have a description of possible advantages, along with a long list of potential disadvantages, here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt

Regards,
Dave

Qtec
04-06-2010, 02:04 AM
Exactly Dave. This has been all done and dusted.

Its one thing to claim that a low squirt cue squirts less, but its another when you seem to claim that if you line up properly on a straight shot, you can never miss, <u>even if you hit off centre.</u>

Qtec

dr_dave
04-06-2010, 08:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, I have a description of possible advantages, along with a long list of potential disadvantages, here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt</div></div>Its one thing to claim that a low squirt cue squirts less, but its another when you seem to claim that if you line up properly on a straight shot, you can never miss, <u>even if you hit off centre.</u></div></div>Agreed.

Were you implying that I was claiming a low-squirt cue can help you never miss.

Dave

Qtec
04-07-2010, 12:45 AM
No Dave, but that seems to be the gist of the posts from Johan. [ who BTW is pushing a low squirt cue!]



Qtec

Boyakasha
04-07-2010, 06:36 AM
That Johan is a complete idiot, guys. He talks rubbish

cushioncrawler
04-07-2010, 04:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boyakasha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That Johan is a complete idiot, guys. He talks rubbish</div></div>In english-billiards in the oldendays the champs tended to stay clear of theory etc -- but when they did dabble in theory they uzually put their foot in it.
But i like it when players etc get theory wrong. Makes me feel better. And everyone can learn something from anyone -- thats my theory.
madMac.
Heard a good saying the other day -- from an ekonomist -- he sayd that some system or other worked well in praktis but failed in theory.
madMac.

Boyakasha
04-08-2010, 01:47 AM
I really hate this agressive marketing of this Johan who claims to be with Acuerate. Yet, I have to agree with Pascal that we're better off ignoring the guy. He's obviously just a sly sales man...

acuerate
04-10-2010, 09:07 AM
Scott,

to a certan degree you are right : if you can pot ball and gain position you can clear a snooker table even with a 14 mm cue ... BUT (a big but) it's so much harder to POT balls or GAIN position with an oversized tip in comparison with a size of tip which is ADAPTED to the diameter (say WEIGHT) of the ball !!! So my dear billiard friends the key question is : what is the ideal tip size of a cue related to the WEIGHT or diameter of the ball and what are the CRITERIA !!
Once you analyse this and have an in depth understanding of cue ball physics, you will be able to discuss this delicate issue. As far as we're concerned : all standard pool cues are largely oversized and it's only based on a habitual pattern which even nobody can clarify or explain with the exception that : it has always been like that and it 'feels' natural which are 'emotional' criteria without any value.

Hope most of us can accept this.

Enjoy the game,

Johan

acuerate
04-10-2010, 09:14 AM
Hi Boyaskasha,

a bold statement about my nature which I can understand. I'm not marketing anything here ... I'm just trying to awaken 'common sense'. I can compare it with a statement by Griffits (formal coach of Stephen Hendry) which mentioned that you always have to look at the cue ball the moment you hit it with the cue tip ... where !!! in practice half of the ex Snooker world champions are looking at the OBJECT ball when they strike the cue ball !
My point is : i'm just trying to get some healthy discussions going about things which are generally perceived to be 'normal' but which are in most cases only based on habitual patterns and tradition.
If I drink a cheap wine for 20 years it will be difficult for me to enjoy a Chateau Cheval Blanc from 1978 ... yet ... if I drink the Chateau Cheval Blanc for a few weeks I will puke when I drink the cheap wine again ...

Hope this changes your conception about things.

Cheers,
Johan

BlindPlayer
04-10-2010, 11:46 AM
As TOURNAMENT Director(80's)I heard two players arguing about this same issue before match play. OB or CB? I settled this by running balls with my eyes closed (30 is my record). My point was, "it is whatever you're more comfortable with". See Tom Ross' article in Jan'09 BD Mag (titled, "Flying Blind" pg.34) on this run. In '08, took 1st place in a line tournament while closing eyes on every shot just for fun(pro size tables).

cushioncrawler
04-10-2010, 04:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott, to a certan degree you are right : if you can pot ball and gain position you can clear a snooker table even with a 14 mm cue ... BUT (a big but) it's so much harder to POT balls or GAIN position with an oversized tip in comparison with a size of tip which is ADAPTED to the diameter (say WEIGHT) of the ball !!! So my dear billiard friends the key question is : what is the ideal tip size of a cue related to the WEIGHT or diameter of the ball and what are the CRITERIA !!
Once you analyse this and have an in depth understanding of cue ball physics, you will be able to discuss this delicate issue. As far as we're concerned : all standard pool cues are largely oversized and it's only based on a habitual pattern which even nobody can clarify or explain with the exception that : it has always been like that and it 'feels' natural which are 'emotional' criteria without any value. Hope most of us can accept this. Enjoy the game, Johan</div></div>Walter Lindrum sayd 11.25mm woz best. Wally woz talking about english-billiards, on a 12' table, and 150gm balls.
Nowadays snooker players prefer 9.25mm -- for 142gm balls the last few years -- balls were 140gms for over 30 years. So we might soon see snooker players going back to 10mm i reckon.

But one of the main criteria iz the coefficient of restitution of the balls. In the oldendays most balls had e = 0.87, which made runthroos eezy. Nowadays krappamiths hav e = 0.96, which makes skrewing eezy.
The other criteria praps iz table speed -- i think the modern tables might be faster, ie cushions and bed.
The other criteria iz the size and strength of the player.
But, in the end, every player uzes the same size of tip -- ie, the same size az the shaft.

Hmmmmmm -- aktually, i hav seen players with oversized tips, ie hanging over all-round a bit. Dunn it myself.
And i hav seen undersized tips, ie the ferrule needs a bit of sanding to get rid of the sharp edge.

So, why do most of us uze the same sized tip, ie same size az the shaft?????
madMac.

Boyakasha
04-13-2010, 03:21 AM
johan,

Terry Griffiths always said that the players have to look a the object ball. Not the cue ball. I think you're mixing things up

BlindPlayer is correct. it doesn't really matter

And cheap wine of the chateau Cheval... they will both get you drunk...