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acuerate
02-03-2010, 12:48 AM
Hi all,

I've read some of your reactions on my previous post which are very interesting. In this short mail I will give you a very short overview of the main billiard games, the size of the balls and the tipsize which is commonly used.

a. snooker : 52.5 mm - standard tipsize +/- 9.50 mm
b. pool : 57 mm - standard tipsize +/- 12.5 mm
c. carom : 61.5 mm - standard tipsize +/- 11.75

Both carom and snooker are older games then pool, and to a certan extend the cues have evolved in tipsize. The reason is that we used to play with inert ivory balls on thick cloths and to play on such tables you needed much more power. The modern game has evolved to much favorable conditions : thin naps and very reactive balls thanks to our Belgium friends Saluc who produce the Aramith balls.

So the BIG question is : where is the logic of the tipsize of poolplayers and is ANYBODY on this board able to explain why only POOL of all possible billiard games is playing with an oversized tipsize ? I'm extremly curious about this and even more curious how pool cues evolved the last 50 years as also the playing conditions changed.

As far as I can see the evolution was NIHIL

If you look at the other cue sports and the relation between tipsize and size of balls, then pool should have a standard tipsize of around 11mm. Logically between snooker and carom.

Carom is played on a much bigger table with much heavier balls with a 11.75 mm tip which is about the correct size.

Snooker with 9.75 mm tip on a much bigger table as well

Pool strangely enough it seems that nobody really thinks about this, with an oversized tipsize on a small table ???

Thanks for your feedback because I don't see the logic and I don't see ANY evolution the last 50 years in the equipment. It's like Roger Federer playing with a small wooden racket.

Johan

wolfdancer
02-03-2010, 02:10 AM
I remember playing pool in Canada, when nine ball was just beginning to catch on. Most of the bars, poolrooms still had the smaller diam. snooker cues....and it just didn't fit my eye.
A few years later, I ended up in SF, where one of the old time legendary players played pool with an 11 mm tip, but he was the exception, as every other player used a 12.75 or 13mm......
The way it was explained to me....in billiards you are usually hitting near the edges to get the max spin; in pool you hit near the center to get maximum control, and the bigger diam tip makes it easier to hit dead center and avoid putting any unwanted English on the CB.
Might be an urban legend, but it makes sense to me.

Bambu
02-03-2010, 09:40 AM
The heavier, fatter shaft also makes it easier to let the weight of the cue do the work. Works for my friend, I dont think its a myth.

Billy_Bob
02-03-2010, 11:42 AM
With pool, you sometimes need to shoot fast shots...

I've experimented with smaller tips and softer tips, but they get wrecked if you shoot a fast shot!

And if you are playing in an all day tournament, you would want your tip to keep its shape all day at a minimum.

As for myself, if I only need to change my tip every 6 months, then that is ok, I'm playing pool instead of changing tips every day!

That's all there is to it. A tip shape which works the best (dime), then a diameter of tip which makes that tip shape last the longest (12.75 mm), and a tip made of material which gives you the best action on the ball (pig skin).

And the larger the diameter (12.75 mm), the more material that is there structurally supporting the tip. So this helps the tip to keep its shape. But 12.75 mm is about as large as you can go and get a dime shape.

Then as to tip hardness, I have found that softer tips get better action on the cue ball, however you shoot that one fast shot, and you get an indentation in the tip! But I have found that a hard pig skin tip works just as good.

So I can have my cake and eat it too. A tip which gets good action on the cue ball, but also lasts a long time before it needs reshaping and a very long time before it needs replacement.

FYI - Different shape tips play differently. Different softness. It is therefore desirable to always play with the same shape tip and same hardness of tip. I think we have all seen the player who gets a new tip installed and suddenly can't play worth beans! Either the hardness or shape of the tip has changed. He must relearn how to play with that new tip! Better is to shape your tip and always use the same tip. Then when a new tip is installed, it plays the same!

bradb
02-03-2010, 12:46 PM
Pool balls are much heavier than snooker balls, thus more resistance, so I think you need a more substantial shaft for contact. Having said that there is a Canadian snooker player who shoots pool with a 9 mm shaft which must be like hitting basket balls with a sewing needle. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

For playing snooker now I bought a Cuetech 11mm snooker cue which is small enough for snooker but still has the feel of a pool cue. I've tried it on pool and I find I have a bit better control and actually can draw back better.

But for pool I always return to my 12.5mm Lucasi, you just can't beat the feel of a good standard pool cue. Brad

acuerate
02-04-2010, 08:13 AM
Dear Bradb,

thanks for your reply.
Strange that you bought an 11 mm snooker cue... Nobody in the professional circuit is playing with a tipsize which is more then 10 mm now!

My point was that nobody up to now could give me any logical reason about such a big tipsize for pool. I hear some reactions about 'control' but then again snooker is a very high precision game playd on a hugh table and control of the cue ball is extremly difficult as shots need to be playd inch perfect over long distances ... yet we see tips of 8.75 - 9.75 ...
When you check the mass of a pool ball related to snooker, it would mean that you would need to play with around 11 mm max for pool.

Hum... means I'm still puzzled.

Enjoy your game,
Johan

Billy_Bob
02-04-2010, 08:58 AM
Actually most "not so good" players I know don't give any attention whatsoever to their tip.

And they scream bloody murder if a new tip costs $10 U.S. as opposed to $2!

It is the OTHER end of the cue they lavish hundreds of dollars on. That being the butt of the cue - fancy impressive designs, etc!

Ive seen people spend over $1000.00 for a fancy design on a cue, and then refuse to pay over $5 for a new tip...

If you ask me, the tip is one of the most important parts of the cue. I could care less what the butt looks like or what "name" is on it. (The specifications *are* important - weight, joint, taper, deflection, etc.)

Bambu
02-04-2010, 09:03 AM
Actually, some pros dont care what kind of tip they use either. I asked one local pro what kind of tip he used. At the time, I was thinking about trying a harder tip. He looked at his tip, and shrugged his shoulders. He didnt know, didnt care, and he ran out just the same.

Qtec
02-04-2010, 09:42 AM
Do you think the speed of the table might be a factor? For example, Carom is played on heated slates which makes it very fast and BTW, snooker is the only table whose cloth has a nap.

Q

bradb
02-04-2010, 12:36 PM
I have been trying to put an exact analysis on why I find the smaller tip more accurate and I think that it's because it allows you to be more precise on where you contact the Qball.

For instance on draw back you can fine tune your contact below the axis and be a bit more precise in the distance you want it to come back. Also I find that I pay a more attentiion on hitting the set point accurately, which I sometimes get a bit careless with my 12.5 tip.

Of course good players are so attuned in hitting the Qball where they want that the added precision is'nt needed as they can still run out the table.

A 11mm tip is still a lot smaller than a 12.5. I believe the cue was designed by CueTec as a good cross over shaft for snooker players switching to pool.

But comfort is the factor and the larger shaft is preffered for pool, the grip, the heft of it for making power shots just feels right for hitting the larger balls.

Just for the hell of it though I'm going to try my 11mm in a 9ball tornament next week. I've won it only once and lately I have been slipping so it will be interesting to see if it makes a difference for me.

-brad

acuerate
02-05-2010, 06:50 AM
Good remark Qtec,

Indeed speed of the table is essential. Carom on heated slate runs much better ... but consider that a match table of carom is very big compared to a pool table.
When tables were very slow and we playd with ivory balls we needed to hit much harder all the time and this would justify stronger and heavier cues with big tips ... So my point was : where is the evolution now that both tables are faster and balls much more reactive ?

As far as I know there is no evolution on the 'standard' equipment beside the fancy and very expensive decoration of pool cues.

Enjoy the game,
Johan

Tony_in_MD
02-05-2010, 09:24 AM
What kind of taper does a snooker cue have? Maybe that is the reason the game can be played with a 10-11 mm tip.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Bradb,

thanks for your reply.
Strange that you bought an 11 mm snooker cue... Nobody in the professional circuit is playing with a tipsize which is more then 10 mm now!

My point was that nobody up to now could give me any logical reason about such a big tipsize for pool. I hear some reactions about 'control' but then again snooker is a very high precision game playd on a hugh table and control of the cue ball is extremly difficult as shots need to be playd inch perfect over long distances ... yet we see tips of 8.75 - 9.75 ...
When you check the mass of a pool ball related to snooker, it would mean that you would need to play with around 11 mm max for pool.

Hum... means I'm still puzzled.

Enjoy your game,
Johan
</div></div>

bradb
02-05-2010, 12:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of taper does a snooker cue have? Maybe that is the reason the game can be played with a 10-11 mm tip.

[quote=acuerate] </div></div>

A snooker shaft tapers back gradually from the tip until it reaches the butte. The butte is smaller in thickness than a typical pool cue.

Most pool shafts keep the tip thickness to about 6" to 8" back from the tip, then it starts to taper back to the butte. This allows the shaft to be the same thickness throughout the stroke area.

This difference is one of the main hurtles for a snooker player to adapt to pool, its a very different feel for the player and takes sometime to get used to.

But the top players are so good they can run the table with a broom handle, its all about talent, equiptment is just a tool.

Rich R.
02-05-2010, 02:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony_in_MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of taper does a snooker cue have? Maybe that is the reason the game can be played with a 10-11 mm tip.

[quote=acuerate] </div></div>

A snooker shaft tapers back gradually from the tip until it reaches the butte. The butte is smaller in thickness than a typical pool cue.
<span style="color: #FF0000">This is called a conical taper. I believe the same type taper is used on carom cues. </span>
Most pool shafts keep the tip thickness to about 6" to 8" back from the tip, then it starts to taper back to the butte. This allows the shaft to be the same thickness throughout the stroke area.
<span style="color: #FF0000"> In pool, this is commonly known as a pro taper. </span>

This difference is one of the main hurtles for a snooker player to adapt to pool, its a very different feel for the player and takes sometime to get used to.

But the top players are so good they can run the table with a broom handle, its all about talent, equiptment is just a tool.

</div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">Top players can definitely play with a broom handle. When I was a kid I worked for a world class pro pool player, in his pool room. For the sake of a fun bet once in a while, he had a push broom handle with a cue tip applied to the end of it. When a bet presented itself, he picked up that broom, unscrewed the handle and proceeded to run racks. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif </span>

bradb
02-06-2010, 12:01 PM
Thanks Rich, I did'nt know it was called a pro taper.

I mentioned cue difference as a big problem for ex snooker players but its also the cloth and rails that give snooker players fits when they switch to pool.

People wonder why Ronnie Osullivan, the greatest shot maker in the world, can't even beat a B-team player in pool but the nuances of the table difference are huge to snooker players.

A typical game will start with Ronnie making what seems to him a good safety, but his opponent will not only hit it, but snooker him back! When he trys the same the Qball misses a mile and he's standing there with this perplexed look on his face.

I've been playing pool now for several years and I still get frustrated with the difference. I know the female players don't seem to have that problem, but they may have started much younger in pool whereas a player like Ronnie is too specialised for the table he learned on.

Davis has done fair but he still has'nt won a major. brad

cushioncrawler
02-07-2010, 01:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....Thanks for your feedback because I don't see the logic and I don't see ANY evolution the last 50 years in the equipment. It's like Roger Federer playing with a small wooden racket. Johan</div></div>Mightbe Roger haz a fat stiff shaft and bigger balls.
madMac.

cushioncrawler
02-07-2010, 01:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pool balls are much heavier than snooker balls, thus more resistance, so I think you need a more substantial shaft for contact. Having said that there is a Canadian snooker player who shoots pool with a 9 mm shaft which must be like hitting basket balls with a sewing needle. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

For playing snooker now I bought a Cuetech 11mm snooker cue which is small enough for snooker but still has the feel of a pool cue. I've tried it on pool and I find I have a bit better control and actually can draw back better.

But for pool I always return to my 12.5mm Lucasi, you just can't beat the feel of a good standard pool cue. Brad </div></div>Brad -- When Colin Colenso vizited my billiard room i woz amazed at how good hiz pool cue woz -- 12.5mm i think -- karnt remember the make -- chinese i think.
I kood play any sort of soft'skrew or soft'english shot with hiz cue that i kood play with my 10mm billiards cue -- talking about English billiards here, and snooker, ie with 2-1/15" balls, ie 142gm.
It must hav been the light and whippy nature of the maple.
I would love to get my hands on one of theze suckers and giv it a good test.
madMac.

bradb
02-07-2010, 01:30 PM
Mac, I have a 13mm chinese knock off cue, it has a very nice balance and feel for an inexpensive cue. The shaft is comparable to my Lucasi and the cue has a nice look.

You can pick one up off the web, the label says "Action" but I don't think thats a name, so its pot luck but the price here was about 125 Canadian.

Brad

cushioncrawler
02-07-2010, 02:46 PM
I really loved the big perfiktly rounded tip -- dunno if dime or nickel -- it would last all season i reckon without loozing shape (with care). And the pro taper didnt bother me. I might chase one up one day.
Which reminds me -- the local snooker players are trying Talisman layered tips for snooker -- but these are delaminating badly -- karnt take the strain of the 10mm cues i guess.

But today i am expekting to pick up my new Bangster golf driver -- 47" shaft, ie 2" oversize -- so the pool'cue will havta wait a bit longer.
madMac.

bradb
02-08-2010, 12:39 PM
Enjoy your golf game Mac, I keep forgetting its summer down there for you Aussies. Brad

cushioncrawler
02-08-2010, 02:31 PM
Yeah -- golf woz allwayz a good break from billiards for me.
I played in a golf team match with a billiards mate -- he sayd i nonintentionally aimed my putts a mile too far right, and hadta hook to get the shot.
I sayd i knew, but it looks and feels straight to me -- its the same with billiards, except that i aim too far left, and then slice -- funny that.
madMac.