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JJFSTAR
02-21-2010, 03:56 PM
This subject comes up all too often. I would like those who think it takes more skill to play 9ball to really explain it in detail.

bradb
02-21-2010, 04:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This subject comes up all too often. I would like those who think it takes more skill to play 9ball to really explain it in detail. </div></div>

For me thats easy.

I'm the no. 1 player in my 8ball league but I rarely make it to the semis in 9ball. Thats because I like closer in shots where I can control the QB easier. In 9ball theres much more up and down the table requiring shots like power draw or long off angle shots.

In an 8ball game I can plan my attack selecting the balls I want in the order I want so that I can avoid shots I don't like.

You can win in 8ball without all the repertoire of shots needed to win in 9ball.

Not to say I don't know those shots, I do, but when under pressure I'm much more comfortable in my element.

Incidently I can beat those same 9ball players or at least play them even in 8ball. But I'm used to close in shape and play well at it. I guess that there says that you need more to win at 9ball.

wolfdancer
02-21-2010, 05:04 PM
Brad, that was something that I heard years back and forgot about...the longer shots, and more CB movement that is required to play good 9-ball.
It also reminds me of something I heard regarding the difference between straight pool, and 8 ball (and I think you could easily substitute 9 ball in for straight pool)
In 8 ball you play position to an area, in straight pool (and 9 ball?), to a spot.

bradb
02-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Yes I can agree with that with some exception, in 14-1 the break out factor makes that game so difficult over the long run. I don't think 9ball players are as used to breaking up clusters in their game.
Brad

doncartmill
02-21-2010, 05:42 PM
Wolf hit the nail on the head about playing to an area in 8 ball vs playing to a spot in 9 ball. What I said on the thread re: luck The framer of the original question is probably many skill levels below that of a pro. When he plays 8 ball as opposed to 9 ball, a shot that is NOT executed as precisely as desired, may still leave the shooter in an "area" with more than two options ( in 9 ball he would have only two; try to make the ball or to play safe). In 8 ball he played to an area where he can do a 180 and choose a different path for his run out or safety. I think his question was really , "for the semi skilled,which is the more forgiving game." and I say 8 ball 10 to 1,more forgiving or less difficult

JJFSTAR
02-21-2010, 06:01 PM
So Brad (or anyone) in all seriousness lets say you were going to play someone that you stand no chance of beating; say your favorite TV star say for giggles, Bustamante. He is playing you $100 to your $1. He is spotting you 6-7 games in a race to 11. You have your choice of 8ball or 9ball what game do you play him?

JJFSTAR
02-21-2010, 06:24 PM
So anyone lets say you were going to play someone that you outclassed by 5 handicaps say an APA SL2. You have to blank this person to win; essentially in a race to 7 you are giving them 6 on the wire. You have your choice or 8 or 9ball what do you play?

Fran Crimi
02-21-2010, 09:42 PM
My answer would be simple. I would play the game that I play best because that's where the odds are in my favor, not so much in the luck factor.

doncartmill
02-21-2010, 11:25 PM
You are the far superior player. Your skill is such that there is little difference in your game 8 or 9 ball. The guy 5- 6 skill levels below you is the big detirminating factor, and that guy will once in a great while run an 8 ball rack, but may have never run a 9 ball rack in his life. Your odds would be to play the game he plays the worst. The luck factor is almost non existant in your case. Where luck enters into it will always be in his game, and with the exception of getting lucky on the 9, the luck is much harder to come by for him while playing the more diffcult game

JJFSTAR
02-22-2010, 08:52 AM
I donít want to sound like a smartass but the word luck was never in any post I made in this thread. The 2 questions that I asked have not yet been answered.

Qtec
02-22-2010, 09:14 AM
The thing about 9B is that the decisions are already made for you. You have to get from the 1 to the 2, etc. Thereafter its just a question of can you do it? Do you have the tech skils needed to play the shots required.




Qtec

JJFSTAR
02-22-2010, 09:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing about 9B is that the decisions are already made for you. You have to get from the 1 to the 2, etc. Thereafter its just a question of can you do it? Do you have the tech skils needed to play the shots required.




Qtec </div></div>

I agree 100%

bradb
02-22-2010, 01:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So anyone lets say you were going to play someone that you outclassed by 5 handicaps say an APA SL2. You have to blank this person to win; essentially in a race to 7 you are giving them 6 on the wire. You have your choice or 8 or 9ball what do you play? </div></div>

I thought I would answer this question as Fran answered the other question above it nicely.

I would find it much easier to blank a poor player in 8ball, and thats because they must call their balls plus the 8 to win. But they can fluke in any ball in 9ball.

So for an easy player the spot is better for them in 9ball. But for advanced players playing even, its more difficult to win in 9ball... you start a run...you better finish it! Theres little room for error.

As mentioned here by other posters we are talking about mid-to high skill level amatuer players, At the pro level we're in an intirely different realm. -Brad

doncartmill
02-22-2010, 02:18 PM
Sorry, this was in answer to JJFStars last post on pg 1, and I didn't realize it had been addressed here on pg 2 ( but I will leave it up anyway )
Wolf pretty much answered your 1st Q i.e. in 9 ball you are playing to a point vs 8 ball you can play position to an area, which is much more forgiving. Your 2nd Q was regarding a skilled player playing a player 5-6 skill levels below him, and which game should the more skilled chose for best results. The first responders answer, was I would chose the game I played best. I had a different opinion ,in that a very skilled player will play all games equally well (within a narrow margin ),as opposed to someone 5-6 skill levels below him. And here is where I indicated "luck"as being a factor in the game of the less skilled and that he has a much better chance of playing position to an area in 8 ball,as opposed to the much more precise "playing to a point" as required in 9 ball. The answer to the question of which requires more skill...Is 9 ball. Having said that,if you look at the lower skilled player,he hasn't yet learned how to control the up and down the table precision position play . He is less skilled and this is more difficult for him. The pro has aquirred this skill of long up and down position play,and can ( within limits play this as well as the shorter in line ,to an area,position of 8 ball )

bradb
02-22-2010, 02:26 PM
Agreed...except obviously you would want to play "Your "game no matter what level of play you are on. Brad

Fran Crimi
02-22-2010, 11:15 PM
I answered your question. I would play the game that I play best. For me, that would be 9 Ball. The fact that I mentioned the word luck has nothing to do with the answer I gave. Luck or no luck, I would play my best game.

JJFSTAR
02-23-2010, 09:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doncartmill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, this was in answer to JJFStars last post on pg 1, and I didn't realize it had been addressed here on pg 2 ( but I will leave it up anyway )
Wolf pretty much answered your 1st Q i.e. in 9 ball you are playing to a point vs 8 ball you can play position to an area, which is much more forgiving. Your 2nd Q was regarding a skilled player playing a player 5-6 skill levels below him, and which game should the more skilled chose for best results. The first responders answer, was I would chose the game I played best. I had a different opinion ,in that a very skilled player will play all games equally well (within a narrow margin ),as opposed to someone 5-6 skill levels below him. And here is where I indicated "luck"as being a factor in the game of the less skilled and that he has a much better chance of playing position to an area in 8 ball,as opposed to the much more precise "playing to a point" as required in 9 ball. The answer to the question of which requires more skill...Is 9 ball. Having said that,if you look at the lower skilled player,he hasn't yet learned how to control the up and down the table precision position play . He is less skilled and this is more difficult for him. The pro has aquirred this skill of long up and down position play,and can ( within limits play this as well as the shorter in line ,to an area,position of 8 ball ) </div></div>

I read this several times. I may have missed where you answered the 2 questions. Bustamante and the SL2 what games would you choose to play them?

JJFSTAR
02-23-2010, 09:57 AM
Brad you did answer one of the questions about the SL2 great; now about Bustamante giving you 7 on the wire to 11 would you play him 8 or 9?

JJFSTAR
02-23-2010, 10:07 AM
Fran this subject for you is a different animal you are a pro pool player. Also with all due respect you did'nt answer my question in the first post now you have. But the question of what about Bustamante giving you 7 on the wire is a moot point because he can't give you 7 on the wire and beat you. With most of us he can.

Pask
02-23-2010, 10:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This subject comes up all too often. I would like those who think it takes more skill to play 9ball to really explain it in detail. </div></div>

I wouldn't actually say that it takes more skills to play 9-ball. I'd rather say that it glabally require general techniques common and essential to all pool game (regarding aiming, fundamentals, cue-ball control). That said, you have to consider some techniques or skills more specific, useful and/or essential to play this game, due to rotation play, such as long-distance shots, mostly one-way plan for position and run out, less margin of error granted, longer stroke (I mean you would tend to hold the cue butt near its end and have a longer shaft between bridge hand and cue ball) because of 'table' position play (you have to control the cue ball up and down table from a shot to one another very often) instead of 'area/zone' position play (like in 8-ball for instance), and you often have to deal with difficult layout, especially after the break, which means that defense is an important part of this game. These are the main techniques specicfic to 9-ball that would list. And, to my mind, they can explain why, even if 9-ball looks easy to beginners (rules easy to understand, no call shots etc), it is actually a game that require a lot of skills. Beginners or occacsional players can have fun with it for sure (and that's what it's a great game for all too) but I also enjoy this game because it is so 'technical'.

But all pool games are technical anyway, requiring more sepcific techinques as well. Maybe 8-ball can leave more margin of error in position play as you can often have more than one solution to run out.

PS : forgive me if I didn't use the right billiards terms when mentioning some of my examples above, I don't know them all in English yet, hope you understood what I said though /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

bradb
02-23-2010, 04:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brad you did answer one of the questions about the SL2 great; now about Bustamante giving you 7 on the wire to 11 would you play him 8 or 9? </div></div>

8ball!... maybe I'll at least get a shot. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Sid_Vicious
02-23-2010, 05:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brad you did answer one of the questions about the SL2 great; now about Bustamante giving you 7 on the wire to 11 would you play him 8 or 9? </div></div>

8ball!... maybe I'll at least get a shot. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif </div></div>

I'd play him 9-ball, but I'd ask to get all of the breaks along with the 7-wire spot. There's just too much luck in 9B to pass that opportunity up, besides, I'd find the meanest damned lockup safeties I could muster, every time I could find one. Then, assuming that he fouled, I'd say to myself, "Where's that nine ball?"

Eight ball would be a true embarrassment for me with this guy, even if he was to add more wire-games for my benefit. Between his skills in 1P, 14.1 and 8B, I seriously doubt "us indians here" would stand a chance against the Chief.

9-Ball, no doubt at all in my mind, even if with only the original spot of 7 going to 11 and winner breaks. Bustamante would probably just make you suffer a lot longer in 8-ball, but he WOULD eat most of us up in both defense and offense. Who'd want to sit through 11 racks of 8B, on purpose? Nineball will always have a factor of luck that 8 ball doesn't. I think a player from the trenches could pull off some surprises in 9B against even the best of the best. Would I bet my money on it, HELL NO! You never know though, everybody has a bad day in this game. 7-11 might get to 8-11 quick if there's a scratch and the 9 is cheezy enough.

Good 'ol 9-ball! sid

bradb
02-23-2010, 06:38 PM
There's no place safe on the table against Bustemonte!

Ok, the break was'nt mentioned in the challenge, I'll take 9ball with the break every game... I would put the 8 and 7 in the wing ball position! I would give myself a 30% chance.

But without the break, definately 8ball.

Bambu
02-24-2010, 07:47 AM
You guys play that you win on your spot balls off the break? Never seen or heard of that.

bradb
02-24-2010, 10:30 AM
You're playing bustemante you take whatever edge you can get!

02-24-2010, 12:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This subject comes up all too often. I would like those who think it takes more skill to play 9ball to really explain it in detail. </div></div>

I don't think it take more skill to play 9 ball.

IMO, the two games emphasize different skill sets nad strategies. 9 ball favors the shotmaker. You need a bigger stroke. You have to kick really well.

8 ball favors a little more position skill, planning and big breaks.

Both games are run out games when played by higher skilled players.

IMO, of course.


Eric

JJFSTAR
02-24-2010, 03:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brad you did answer one of the questions about the SL2 great; now about Bustamante giving you 7 on the wire to 11 would you play him 8 or 9? </div></div>

8ball!... maybe I'll at least get a shot. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif </div></div>

I don't quite understand this statement. Are you saying that you think you would get a shot in 8ball but you would'nt get a shot in 9ball?

KellyStick
02-24-2010, 08:28 PM
So in 8B you play to an area. And so I see the argument that this makes it easier. Ok. Up to a point. That would be up to the last ball or two. So early on playing to an area with high margin of area makes sense. But as your balls get pocketed, on a run out, with opponent balls all over the place, your finish becomes increasingly more complicated. So in 9B as you approach finish the ease becomes easier quite often. In 8B the finish can become harder as navigation, options for CB movement, and precision might become critical. So, I think, the strategies are different. I am not sure the ease is different.

In 8B there are runs that are easy depending on table lie and skill. Ditto 9B. I Posted a similar question recently. So now I think that there is little difference. The challenge and defensive timing are different. The strategy is different. The timing of strategic approach changes... Not sure one is easier tho.

bradb
02-24-2010, 09:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brad you did answer one of the questions about the SL2 great; now about Bustamante giving you 7 on the wire to 11 would you play him 8 or 9? </div></div>

8ball!... maybe I'll at least get a shot. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif </div></div>

I don't quite understand this statement. Are you saying that you think you would get a shot in 8ball but you would'nt get a shot in 9ball? </div></div>

That was based on not having the break in your original challenge. With the break of course I would take 9ball. The whole thing is moot anyway, he's one of the best in the world... I probably would'nt get a shot either game without the break!

Actually I have played pro players, in fact i used to practice with a local pro. (Western Canadian champion.) Once they get their stroke going you become a spectator. It can be quite intimadating. -Brad

JJFSTAR
02-25-2010, 08:02 AM
So you are saying that if it is winner breaks you would take 8ball?

bradb
02-25-2010, 06:31 PM
If I'm going to, lose it might as well be in a game I'm comfortable in. The spot means nothing to a player at that level, they can run the table everytime, what good is a spot if you never even get a chance to break?

KellyStick
03-10-2010, 07:17 PM
Didn't read the whole post. I also posted something similar a while back.

Wolf said playing to an area vs a spot in 8 vs 9 ball. That may be true early on in 8 ball. But as you run you have to play more to a spot than an area as your options go down and the traffic of your unpocketed opponents balls remain. Granted you can push his balls out of the way. So 8 ball has more traffic to manage than 9 ball for an up front run.

in 9 your choices are limited. In 8 you have massive run options to think through and Choose from. So in my head I may have to run down 100 possible approaches to a run out in 8 ball whereas I only run to ground 10 possible sequences for 9 ball. I use these numbers figuratively so don't get hung up on 100 vs 10. Though that factor is probably in the ball park. And, after each shot you may re-assess 90 vs 8, then 80 vs 7 etc.

I do agree that an early error in 9 ball can be death. Even worse a mid stream error that gives your lesser opponent an easy run. In my mind luck can be a bigger factor in 9 vs 8 ball.

I think the strategies and some base skills are different. Not sure you can compare them really. They are different games.

I do beleive that 9ball is mostly popular because it's fast. Popular means it can make money on TV. It also helps get me home earlier on pool night so I can go to work the next day. So you'll never see one pocket on TV in America. In Europe you can see a hole uninteruppted match of snooker.

bradb
03-17-2010, 03:14 PM
Hi Kelly. I thought I would add a note about 9ball practicing.

I've been struggling in 9ball lately, I just can't seem to find my form like I can in 8ball. So I've tried this technique in practice.

I've been practicing in 10ball!... So when i get to a 9ball match that game seems easier. Its feels like some of the pressure off.

I remember we used to play 5ball for money at my old club, but nobody ever practiced 5ball... it was the good 9ball players who dominated that game. Brad

Pask
03-17-2010, 04:05 PM
I kinda agree with you Brad. But for game pratice itself, I mean practicing while playing the game, alone or with a partner. But it is essential to keep praticing specific drills and strokes for rotation games, whether it's 9 or 10 ball.

However, call shots in 10-ball, and some other specific rules (like when you miss a shot on a called ball, the opponent can leave you the next shot if the resulting position doesn't please him) make this game not tougher to my mind but a bit different. And that's why I agree that if you're used to play 10-ball, you get less difficulty in 9-ball.

10-ball is quite recent as an official game in French comptetitions, and is played just in master category or in national officila opens (gathering all categories, with points for general all-game ranking). People still don't really master it here I guess. My coach often plays it with me, and I guess it's, as you said, to make me gain more ease at 9-ball. For the moment, apart from drill training, regarding 'game training', my coach mostly plays 9-ball with me. Because it is the game played in most of major tournaments, and maybe it's also because it's the game I've been playing the best so far. Most of the time, we play 9-ball for warmup or matches to see my improvements. And often, when racking one more game, he adds ball 10. And when we get back to 9-ball, I feel it looks easier.

wolfdancer
03-17-2010, 04:40 PM
It's been said that you should practice the game that you play, but even though I play in 8 ball leagues, and for the most part 8 ball tournaments...I think 9 ball gives you a better chance to let your stroke out, and leads to more creative safety play.
I play better 8 ball, because I gots no stroke to let out....I cheat creatively though....

bradb
03-17-2010, 07:59 PM
Wolf you've made a good point, I think the reason an 8ball player may develope a shorter stroke (for me anyway) is that you can play 8ball very effectively with short easy stroke shots and work your way around the table never having to let it out. I've had break and outs where I've never had to leave the center of the Qball.

So if you play a lot of 8ball you can get in a habit of playing that way and get out of practice for the long stroking shots needed for 9ball. Brad

gabeski
03-18-2010, 12:11 PM
I have played a lot of 9ball and don't understand all the comments about "long stroking shots". With an intelligent break and prudent play you should be able to keep most of your shots on one end of the table, with a couple of longer ones.

bradb
03-18-2010, 01:06 PM
What we are referring to is using more spin to get up and down the table (9") requiring a longer stroke and pace. In 9ball there are a more instances where you must draw back for distance, top spin forward or power side spin to force the Qball into position.... See Dr Daves power draw video as a good example.

In 8ball you can plan out your patterns of play (because you have 7 balls to choose from) so that the least amount of position play is required. You can execute shots 75% of the time with stun or just rolling the Qball on to the next shot. Brad