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bradb
02-23-2010, 04:21 PM
We've all been faced with this dreaded straight in shot with both balls frozen to the rail, but actually with a bit of practice this shot is fairly easy.

Fig 1. Set up for a draw back but angle the butte of your cue slightly inward as shown... use the line of the rail for reference as you sight.

Fig.2 Strike the QBall bottom right. The 8ball will pocket and the Qball will squirt back above the 9ball as shown.

The cue angle is "very slight"... too much and the 8ball misses, not enough and the Qball comes back to shallow. Brad

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/table1.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Table2.jpg

Pask
02-23-2010, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the tip Brad and for explainations too. I had found out how to play this kind of shot mmyself, which is already a good thing, but I would have been unable to explain it. Sometimes I also add a slight right spin on that shot, maybe to feel a bit 'safer', more confident when striking the cue ball. I often do that especially if I have to play the last two balls, like in the figures you've shown. Adding some slight spin may lengthen the distance between cue ball and 9-ball, but maybe due to pressure because it's the last 2 balls, I prefer getting a longer shot on the 9, but being sure I won't miss the 8. Now you've presented this shot this way, I'll look forward to executing it your way more and more often.

Thanks! - other little tips welcome by the way!

bradb
02-24-2010, 10:13 AM
Pask, I did'nt mention it very well, but yes, use "bottom right side spin." This transfers opposite spin to the 8ball so that it hugs the rail and caroms into the pocket.

I did'nt see this shot in Dr Dave's menu but I'm sure he has it somewhere.

brad

Pask
02-24-2010, 04:26 PM
Oh ok Brad! So I've been making this shot the right way then! - or been trying to get the right position as often as possible! I like that kind of shots. In the past, I used to do this kind of shots and banks for instance, following more my instinct than a given technique. But now I've changed my way to practice and learn, I've been taking time to analyse these tricky shots when training - even if sometimes like in this case I'd be unable to explain it clearly, because, to my mind, shots involving spin can be explain in theory but then on the table it depends on each player's stroke, and becomes so personnal that you have to train to find out the right 'dose' for the hit. Maybe that's why it's been difficult for me to explain it to someone so far.

But thanks to you Brad, it's now possible! I think I've also seen a paper by Dr Dave dealing with this type of shot by the way.

I think it's important for everyone to take time to analyse a given type of shot and, if needed, find out how to adapt your own stroke to it. Knowing shots and yourself too should take everyone on the right way to improve, and get more confident - and self-confidence is also an important factor (talking about pressure here again!) especially if this kind of shot includes the last 2 balls like in your figures. Now I take this analysis time as a part of my drills, I've noticed I've been improving faster, better, and got more consistant when playing games, out of practice environment.

cushioncrawler
02-25-2010, 12:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've all been faced with this dreaded straight in shot with both balls frozen to the rail, but actually with a bit of practice this shot is fairly easy.
Fig 1. Set up for a draw back but angle the butte of your cue slightly inward as shown... use the line of the rail for reference as you sight.
Fig.2 Strike the QBall bottom right. The 8ball will pocket and the Qball will squirt back above the 9ball as shown. The cue angle is "very slight"... too much and the 8ball misses, not enough and the Qball comes back too shallow. Brad</div></div>Brad -- I am surprized that this karnt be done without side -- ie due to the large pockets.
Or with left side (inside english).

But, i do do the same sort of thing on a 12' table when the balls are in line (but not on the rail).
Az u say, the only way to get the Qball to go right iz to uze swerv -- but, az i say (ask), swerv probly aint necessary with thems big pool pockets.
And to get more swerv u jack'up more -- but this makes the shot more diffikult (u know what i meen) -- talking about when both balls are off the rail here.
I guess that u karnt get (try for) more swerv when both balls are frozen.
madMac.

bradb
02-25-2010, 06:58 PM
Yeah, you need the bottom right for sure Mac... pool pockets are bigger but they still won't take a frozen ball along the rail if its very far out.

This shot is more difficult on a snooker table for sure because of the way the pockets are cut. Pool pockets of course are cut angled instead of rounded so if you keep the ball inside the point it will bank into the pocket. But... if there is right side spin on it... or if it comes out a bit it will hang.

Thats why you need the left side spin on the 8ball, it will help it to bank in even if its out a bit, plus as you mentioned, the right side spin on the Qball helps it to angle back to the rail a tad because you are hitting it lined up away from the rail.

You have to get low on this shot so lay the cue down on the rail and trap it between your fingers, take a good follow thru as you will need that spin.

I don't even think about what has to happen... I just line up a bottom right draw back shooting slightly away from the rail and it'll pop back real nice.

Well most of the time! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif Brad

wolfdancer
02-26-2010, 03:41 PM
I guess I've been shooting this shot backasswards then, as i usually try to go forward and have the CB spin off the side rail. Thanks for the tip....this could move me up to an SL-3 (lol)maybe, if I ever played in that system.
I'm heading for the nearest pool room, which happens to be downstairs and through the hallway door, to try that tip out....I never thought of angling the cue.

Jal
02-26-2010, 07:17 PM
Brad,

Thanks for the technique.

Another way of doing it, which I learned from one of Robert Byrne's books, is to aim the cueball maybe a bit more into the cushion with inside english (left in this case), as Mac suggested. The cueball is then on the way out (rebounding) as it strikes the OB, which amounts to a slight cut into the cushion. But throw from the inside sidespin then straightens it out. The cueball can be made to travel at least a diamond or two uptable without too much effort, and even more with great speed. Draw or follow can be combined with the english to move it backward or forward of the tangent line.

I realize that with Byrne's method, you're not generating the helper OB sidespin to ease it into the pocket off the facing (in fact, just the opposite), but it works well-enough. With your method, the cueball also wants to veer off the cushion, if for no other reason, because of the nose overhang and inevitable slight bounce from an elevated cue. Thus, yours also amounts to a cut (slight) into the cushion. But, in addition, throw from the outside english drives the OB at a yet steeper angle into the cushion. The helper english then makes things right (I know you know).

I only mention the differences because I guess it's a matter of picking your poison--whether you want the throw early on (Byrne's), or concomitant induced OB spin later (yours) to save the day. I can't say which method results in more consistency--maybe it's something to investigate further.

Jim

bradb
02-26-2010, 09:29 PM
I tried it and got it to work, but I was'nt as successful with it probably because I've been practicing the other way only.

I found it a bit daunting to shoot into the rail, but once I got by that, I got it to pop back almost identicle to the other shot. So in effect as you mentioned its the exact opposite but still the same result.
Brad

Jal
02-26-2010, 10:09 PM
Thanks for trying it out and reporting back so soon. I'll have to try yours too, but I'm afraid I can't be anywhere as quick about it.

Jim

cushioncrawler
02-27-2010, 04:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brad, Thanks for the technique. Another way of doing it, which I learned from one of Robert Byrne's books, is to aim the cueball maybe a bit more into the cushion with inside english (left in this case), as Mac suggested. The cueball is then on the way out (rebounding) as it strikes the OB, which amounts to a slight cut into the cushion. But throw from the inside sidespin then straightens it out. The cueball can be made to travel at least a diamond or two uptable without too much effort, and even more with great speed. Draw or follow can be combined with the english to move it backward or forward of the tangent line. I realize that with Byrne's method, you're not generating the helper OB sidespin to ease it into the pocket off the facing (in fact, just the opposite), but it works well-enough. With your method, the cueball also wants to veer off the cushion, if for no other reason, because of the nose overhang and inevitable slight bounce from an elevated cue. Thus, yours also amounts to a cut (slight) into the cushion. But, in addition, throw from the outside english drives the OB at a yet steeper angle into the cushion. The helper english then makes things right (I know you know). I only mention the differences because I guess it's a matter of picking your poison--whether you want the throw early on (Byrne's), or concomitant induced OB spin later (yours) to save the day. I can't say which method results in more consistency--maybe it's something to investigate further. Jim</div></div>Jim -- I remember showing some top players this sort of shot, on a 12' table. The red iz frozen on cushion -- the Qball frozen allso, up to say a half'ball clear of red. U simply play a skrew shot say 10dg or up to 45dg into the cushion -- this iz best played jacked up up to say 45dg. The red goze along the rail into the pocket -- the Qball goze back and out off the rail to allmost anywhere u want.
madMac.

bradb
02-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Mac, that seems like more of a masse shot... I did that once but it was more of a fluke than anything.

I trapped myself almost identical to what just you described. So in sort of a resignation to having bolluxed it up... I stepped up and shot down on the cue hoping at best just to not make a foul... and "Bob's your uncle," it potted and came back off the rail for shape!

I don't think I could do that again without practicing what you just described as I was'nt sure how it worked.

Brad

cushioncrawler
02-28-2010, 04:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, that seems like more of a masse shot... I did that once but it was more of a fluke than anything.
I trapped myself almost identical to what just you described. So in sort of a resignation to having bolluxed it up... I stepped up and shot down on the cue hoping at best just to not make a foul... and "Bob's your uncle," it potted and came back off the rail for shape!
I don't think I could do that again without practicing what you just described as I was'nt sure how it worked. Brad</div></div>Brad -- The shot iz nonmissable if the balls are close enuff -- u can play at any angle or jack'up or skrew or top that u like.

But i suspekt that in some jurisdiktions the ref might call a foul. Some rules probly dont allow shooting into the rail. Probly koz u get a sort of sqeez -- a sort of push -- a sort of double hit.

But, re masse'pique shots of this type -- u can place the Qball against the rail -- and an Oball against the Qball, on the outside -- and u can play a pique into the rail at say 45dg -- and the Qball goze around the Oball without touching it -- and masse's back around the Oball. Here u hav played a simple pique and hav gotten a masse effekt for free.

But, az i say, this pique'masse, and that pot'red, might be ruled a foul in some games.
madMac.

bradb
02-28-2010, 06:16 PM
Yes, that shot would probably be called a foul in a leaugue game, but just playing with friends is a bit more forgivable.

On another note things are really bonkers here in Vancouver as we just won the hockey Olympic gold over the US!!! I've never seen such flag waving patriotism in Canadians before, even the Quebec intrants are singing O Canada. Maybe this could be the one thing that might unify this country. Brad

doncartmill
03-01-2010, 12:44 AM
Actually what Jal proposed is a trick shot that Mike Massey performs regularly. Both balls on the rail cb about 2 1/2 balls away...Massey shoots hard inside low forcing CB into the rail then into OB. cue ball draws back to the far right of the near long rail,dbbls the corner ,catches the right far long rail and comes back to the corner where Massey is shooting from. The object ; is to draw the cue three rails and back within a 2 diamond area in the corner under his belly. Over kill as far as getting position on the 9...but it does work pretty well.

Jal
03-01-2010, 12:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doncartmill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually what Jal proposed is a trick shot that Mike Massey performs regularly. Both balls on the rail cb about 2 1/2 balls away...Massey shoots hard inside low forcing CB into the rail then into OB. cue ball draws back to the far right of the near long rail,dbbls the corner ,catches the right far long rail and comes back to the corner where Massey is shooting from. The object ; is to draw the cue three rails and back within a 2 diamond area in the corner under his belly. Over kill as far as getting position on the 9...but it does work pretty well. </div></div>
Actually, I'd have do push-ups for a year and then marinate my tip in nitro to pull that one off (though I'm not exactly sure I'm picturing the path you described accurately.) I had something much more humble in mind, essentially the same direct path as Brad indicated in his diagram, but maybe with the cueball traveling to the bottom long cushion a little farther uptable rather than so close to the 9-ball.

I believe I have done it Brad's way several times (it doesn't come up that often) and I think his is probably the best choice if you don't have to move the cueball very far from the left short rail. But I defer to those with more table time. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Jim

doncartmill
03-01-2010, 01:53 PM
I said that wrong...I just meant utilizing that same inside english the cue ball can be drawn back and up table for a shot on the 9. Massey has that tremendous draw stroke and with the balls set as were shown. i.e. OB at 1 diamond out of pocket with the QB then about 2 1/2 balls away or 1 diamond plus 2 1/2 balls.
If the rails were numbered in counter clockwise rotation with (1) being the rail against which the balls are frozen,then (2) the long rail under his belly;(3) the continiued long rail to my right and beyond the ctr pocket;(4) the short rail at other end of table; (5) long rail portion at upper far side of table.
Mike plays into the rail with hard inside english pocketing OB and drawing QB "back" three rails rail (3).(4),(5) and then getting QB back down into the 2 diamond square ,where the 9 lays. Yes it is quite impressive when you see Mike do it. Oh and that is with his que relatively level ( NOT jacked up ).

cushioncrawler
03-01-2010, 02:37 PM
On my 12' table i can pot the red along the rail if it iz no more than say 5 balls clear of the corner pocket -- and if the Qball (on the rail) iz say no more than 3 balls clear of red -- and it iz definitely better if i aim into the rail, ie az if to hit red just left of center -- and better with zero side.

I did accidentally pot red with an illegal jump shot too -- praps one kood play a legal verzion jump -- ie and getting shape on that 9 but off the opposit rail.
madMac.

Jal
03-01-2010, 04:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doncartmill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I said that wrong...I just meant utilizing that same inside english the cue ball can be drawn back and up table for a shot on the 9. Massey has that tremendous draw stroke and with the balls set as were shown. i.e. OB at 1 diamond out of pocket with the QB then about 2 1/2 balls away or 1 diamond plus 2 1/2 balls.
If the rails were numbered in counter clockwise rotation with (1) being the rail against which the balls are frozen,then (2) the long rail under his belly;(3) the continiued long rail to my right and beyond the ctr pocket;(4) the short rail at other end of table; (5) long rail portion at upper far side of table.
Mike plays into the rail with hard inside english pocketing OB and drawing QB "back" three rails rail (3).(4),(5) and then getting QB back down into the 2 diamond square ,where the 9 lays. Yes it is quite impressive when you see Mike do it. Oh and that is with his que relatively level ( NOT jacked up ). </div></div>

Thanks Don. That is what I interpreted your first post to mean, and obviously we're on the same page about taking the direct path. As for me, I haven't practiced it much and getting the cueball to the center table area (no intervening cushions) is about as far as I've gone--Byrne mentions (in passing) sending it to the other end of the table. I don't doubt your description of Massey's version though...21..22..23..24....

Jim

Jal
03-01-2010, 04:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On my 12' table i can pot the red along the rail if it iz no more than say 5 balls clear of the corner pocket -- and if the Qball (on the rail) iz say no more than 3 balls clear of red -- and it iz definitely better if i aim into the rail, ie az if to hit red just left of center -- and better with zero side.
</div></div>
Mac, why better with zero side?

Jim

cushioncrawler
03-01-2010, 06:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On my 12' table i can pot the red along the rail if it iz no more than say 5 balls clear of the corner pocket -- and if the Qball (on the rail) iz say no more than 3 balls clear of red -- and it iz definitely better if i aim into the rail, ie az if to hit red just left of center -- and better with zero side.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, why better with zero side?Jim</div></div>Jim -- When i say better with zero side i am still (of course) talking about when hitting into the rail, ie aiming just left of center on red. I did a few more tests just now -- and clearly a bit or a lot of right'hand'side made the pot'red allmost impossible (12' table here, ie very tight pockets) -- while a bit of left'side potted the red okish, but the Qball didnt skrew back (and out) az eezyly. Yep, zero side won.
madMac.

Jal
03-02-2010, 01:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On my 12' table i can pot the red along the rail if it iz no more than say 5 balls clear of the corner pocket -- and if the Qball (on the rail) iz say no more than 3 balls clear of red -- and it iz definitely better if i aim into the rail, ie az if to hit red just left of center -- and better with zero side.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, why better with zero side?Jim</div></div>Jim -- When i say better with zero side i am still (of course) talking about when hitting into the rail, ie aiming just left of center on red. I did a few more tests just now -- and clearly a bit or a lot of right'hand'side made the pot'red allmost impossible (12' table here, ie very tight pockets) -- while a bit of left'side potted the red okish, but the Qball didnt skrew back (and out) az eezyly. Yep, zero side won.
madMac. </div></div>
Mac, it's probably hard to see what's going on without high-speed video assistance, but I'd imagine that you've thought about it. Different scenarios come to mind, but do you have a pretty good idea why the zero side works best?

Jim

cushioncrawler
03-02-2010, 03:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, it's probably hard to see what's going on without high-speed video assistance, but I'd imagine that you've thought about it. Different scenarios come to mind, but do you have a pretty good idea why the zero side works best? Jim</div></div>Jim -- Firstly, i reckon that zero side maximizes the backspin -- kompared to uzing a bit of side.
Sekondly, i reckon that the bottom'spin, when the Qball hits the Oball right'of'center, throws the Qball left a bit -- ie further left of the ball'to'ball line -- or at least it throws the Oball further left than the same sort of shot with left'side.
But mightbe its just that with zero'spin the Oball haz less right'hand'side -- kompared to when the Qball iz hit with left'side -- right'hand'side being poizon i guess when the Oball gets to the pocket.
madMac.

doncartmill
03-02-2010, 11:21 PM
I would say that when you use zero side,but are forcing into the rail,with your cue angled in ,that your cue stays in contact with object ball longer,and as the object ball moves down the rail ( not in the direction/alignment of your cue )your contact point/tip against CB moves to the inside never losing contact with the cue ball. So while you are saying "No" side, you are staying with the CB longer,and actually putting more side ( than had you addressed the CB with low inside. This situation only presents itself when the CB is being forced into the rail allowing longer contact,while the CB is moving out of alignment relative to the center line of your cue stick. Much like an illegal push shot.

1Time
03-03-2010, 01:04 AM
Simple shot - for me anyway.

cushioncrawler
03-03-2010, 02:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doncartmill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say that when you use zero side,but are forcing into the rail,with your cue angled in ,that your cue stays in contact with object ball longer,and as the object ball moves down the rail ( not in the direction/alignment of your cue )your contact point/tip against CB moves to the inside never losing contact with the cue ball. So while you are saying "No" side, you are staying with the CB longer,and actually putting more side ( than had you addressed the CB with low inside. This situation only presents itself when the CB is being forced into the rail allowing longer contact,while the CB is moving out of alignment relative to the center line of your cue stick. Much like an illegal push shot.</div></div>I am thinking that the Qball will tend to get rhs, ie outside english, from rubbing the rail, ie cushion imparted side (iz that what its called??) -- alltho az u say the Qtip might stay in kontakt longer etc and tend to wipe a bit of inside english on the Qball, initially -- anyhow the wiping and rubbing will mostly negate.

And i am thinking that the Qball will (if hit centrally) kum off the rail with a bit of masse, ie a sort of backspin but akting to swerv the ball away from the rail rather than back.
In fakt i just then hit a meezle ball (with no Oball) and it had a bit of swerv to the right after it left the rail -- u can see this if u shoot into the rail a bit more than what iz uzually needed for the aktual pot'shot.
And, when the meezle ball hit the (far) side rail (with no Oball) it didnt seem to take a funny angle -- ie it didnt seem to hav any side -- and there woznt any vizible side anyhow (but a little bit of side would be hard to see anyhow).
madMac.

Jal
03-04-2010, 01:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, it's probably hard to see what's going on without high-speed video assistance, but I'd imagine that you've thought about it. Different scenarios come to mind, but do you have a pretty good idea why the zero side works best? Jim</div></div>Jim -- Firstly, i reckon that zero side maximizes the backspin -- kompared to uzing a bit of side.
Sekondly, i reckon that the bottom'spin, when the Qball hits the Oball right'of'center, throws the Qball left a bit -- ie further left of the ball'to'ball line -- or at least it throws the Oball further left than the same sort of shot with left'side.
But mightbe its just that with zero'spin the Oball haz less right'hand'side -- kompared to when the Qball iz hit with left'side -- right'hand'side being poizon i guess when the Oball gets to the pocket.
madMac. </div></div>
Mac, I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're saying or a slight variant: if the CB has no english (left or right) upon reaching the OB (as your measles ball tests tentatively indicate), induced topspin from CB backspin should cause the OB to swerve (masse) back toward a parallel cushion track after it pushes off of the cushion (more or less). If so, CB topspin should spell disaster, all else equal.

Am I reading your idea correctly? It sounds very plausible, but I think a comparison with CB follow might shed more light.

Jim

cushioncrawler
03-04-2010, 04:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, it's probably hard to see what's going on without high-speed video assistance, but I'd imagine that you've thought about it. Different scenarios come to mind, but do you have a pretty good idea why the zero side works best?</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim -- Firstly, i reckon that zero side maximizes the backspin -- kompared to uzing a bit of side.
Sekondly, i reckon that the bottom'spin, when the Qball hits the Oball right'of'center, throws the Qball left a bit -- ie further left of the ball'to'ball line -- or at least it throws the Oball further left than the same sort of shot with left'side.
But mightbe its just that with zero'spin the Oball haz less right'hand'side -- kompared to when the Qball iz hit with left'side -- right'hand'side being poizon i guess when the Oball gets to the pocket.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're saying or a slight variant: if the CB has no english (left or right) upon reaching the OB (as your measles ball tests tentatively indicate), induced topspin from CB backspin should cause the OB to swerve (masse) back toward a parallel cushion track after it pushes off of the cushion (more or less). If so, CB topspin should spell disaster, all else equal. Am I reading your idea correctly? It sounds very plausible, but I think a comparison with CB follow might shed more light.</div></div>Jim -- Yes that sounds korrekt.
It meenz that a simple kut'shot out in midtable needs to be hit thicker if u are uzing deep skrew, and thinner if uzing roll.
For an Oball frozen on the rail it meenz that u (likewize) havta kontakt the Oball thicker if uzing skrew -- kompared to uzing top.
I wouldnt say that top spells disaster -- but i would say that top givz a worserer margin for error.
madMac.