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View Full Version : Q, Can I borrow a Euro?



Deeman3
03-04-2010, 09:21 AM
It seems the new Greek Tragedy is the sinking value of the Euro tied to the rest of the European Community. Is this the end of the Euro? Will the Germans, the Frogs and the Dutch prop up Greece and if they do, will the rest of the PIGS (their term, not mine) Ireland, Spain and such, use this to extort even more wealth from the rest of the European Members? How can this survive? I they bail out the Greeks, they will just continue thier socialist spending and if they don't they (the EU) will have to bail out thier own banks.

Do any of you see a way for the EU to survive this crisis in the long term. They say they will just raise taxes a lot more in the "Good" countries and that will help but it does seem that they have about petered out that basket with business all but drying up over costs and many, many fleeing to lower cost production markets even now. Can they survive on a 90% plus tax rate?

Q, do you think the Euro will survive? Do you think the EU will maintain most or all of it's present members?

They Greeks are now marching in the streets to demand more wages, job security and benefits. How does that match up with the demands for frugality that the others are now making?

Qtec
03-04-2010, 10:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

Greeks aren't very welcome in the Rue Alphones Weicker in Luxembourg. It's home to Eurostat, the European Union's statistical office. The number crunchers there are deeply annoyed with Athens. Investigative reports state that important data "cannot be confirmed" or has been requested but "not received."

Creative accounting took priority when it came to totting up government debt.Since 1999, the Maastricht rules threaten to slap hefty fines on euro member countries that exceed the budget deficit limit of three percent of gross domestic product. Total government debt mustn't exceed 60 percent.

The Greeks have never managed to stick to the 60 percent debt limit, and they only adhered to the three percent deficit ceiling with the help of blatant balance sheet cosmetics. One time, gigantic military expenditures were left out, and another time billions in hospital debt. After recalculating the figures, the experts at Eurostat consistently came up with the same results: In truth, the deficit each year has been far greater than the three percent limit. In 2009, it exploded to over 12 percent.

Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.

Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date. </div></div>

The EU should sue GS. Take them to the cleaners for conspiracy to commit fraud.
GS exécs should go to jail for their crimes.
The EU will surrvive.its reached the Too Big To Fail point.

That's my opinion anyway.

Q

Deeman3
03-04-2010, 01:58 PM
You are probably right. I don't know how a multi-country alliance can really fail but the damage to the currency may be hard to overcome. My bet, if I had a cat in this fight would be that the strong countries, Germany, France (to an extent) and a couple of others may ditch the Euro and gop back to their currency. I don't know how they stem the tide of the PIGS from devaluing it by default and hyper-inflation. Certainly the Greek Drackma will never be stable if they get out of the EU of just are thrown off the currency and, as I said, the banks are gonna have to pay the bills or risk dumping all their bonds or raising taxes to much higher than now.

cushioncrawler
03-04-2010, 03:33 PM
Dee -- Its eezy for a multi'kuntry alliance to fail -- in fakt, with krappynomix, failure iz inevitable.
madMac.

Deeman3
03-04-2010, 03:46 PM
It is certainly much easier when they forgo their capitolist system for almost complete socialism I guess. With no engine to drive the economy, they will only be able to suck wealth from the citizens like much of Europe has been doing for a couple of generations now.

In much the samw way but earlier in the process, it is starting to happen here. The main difference is the much larger groups of people completely dependent on the government as our fastest growing portion od society with an exponential growth of almost whole communities living off the dole as much of Ireland does today.

We did have a good run, you have to admit. So did Europe but the times are a changing.

wolfdancer
03-04-2010, 03:50 PM
It's going to be different though, from the Russian system where they took your farmhouse.....in this age....we're jes going to move in with you...

Deeman3
03-04-2010, 03:54 PM
Hey, at least then I'd have someone to shoot pool with! Tori had eye surgery last week and is having a tough recovery as she was butchered in her first operation 8 weeks ago but, as of now, she is no longer cross eyed! She saw double for all those weeks and I almost got on board with Obama's protecting the lawyers in tort cases.

Now, all is getting better. Global warming is to kick in tomorrow so we will be back in bike weather for the first time in 10 whole weeks!!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
03-04-2010, 04:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is certainly much easier when they forgo their capitolist system for almost complete socialism I guess. With no engine to drive the economy, they will only be able to suck wealth from the citizens like much of Europe has been doing for a couple of generations now.

In much the samw way but earlier in the process, it is starting to happen here. The main difference is the much larger groups of people completely dependent on the government as our fastest growing portion od society with an exponential growth of almost whole communities living off the dole as much of Ireland does today.

We did have a good run, you have to admit. So did Europe but the times are a changing. </div></div>


That is what happens when the government aids the wealthy top one percent, in exploiting all of the rest of a society.

As I have shown with graphs, from government sites, a number of times, when Republicans are in control, the rich get wealthier, and the rest lose ground.

The super rich had a tax break from Bush of 1.2 trillion dollars while he was waging two wars, one of which was completely un-necessary, and failing to pay for any of it.

I think it's entirely appropriate that we take a little bit of it back from the nice long ride Bush gave the wealthy, who enjoyed unprecedented expansion of personal wealth over the last 10 years, and pay for the creation of jobs, that they actually destroyed.


Do any of you righties ever consider what this country would look like with no Veterans administraion? No public schools? No Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid?

A government that works to address the4 pressing problems faced by it's citizens, which they cannot solve without an organized democratic government, is not what socialism is about, at all.

A Government which transfers through taxe cuts and loopholes, and Wars of choice, and Wall Street Corruption of ignored Ponzi schemes, massive redistribution of wealth to the already wealthy, even using fear to do so, and ignores all the predatory abuse of the average citizen, by wealthy corporate powers, is a fascist government.

That is precisely what we had under Bush, and the Republican majority.

G.

wolfdancer
03-04-2010, 04:03 PM
Hey, thank the Lord that she has recovered from "botched" surgery...going blind is my greatest fear
....dumbing down to steve's level ranks a distant second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif but then I have never chewed gum in my life, and can still walk at a fairly brisk pace...

Deeman3
03-05-2010, 08:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, thank the Lord that she has recovered from "botched" surgery...going blind is my greatest fear
....dumbing down to steve's level ranks a distant second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif but then I have never chewed gum in my life, and can still walk at a fairly brisk pace... </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Yes, it really frightened her and me as well. I can't deal with loss of sight as I still have better than 20/20 and can't imagine not seeing well. </span>

LWW
03-06-2010, 06:50 AM
Can you post just once in your life without an ad hominem attack?

I have faith that you actually can ... but it requires effort on your part.

LWW