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JJFSTAR
03-09-2010, 08:14 AM
I have heard of a style that has the end of every stroke finishing with the tip down on the cloth. Anyone who uses and/or teaches this technique care to explain the advantages? I am very curious.

DeadCrab
03-09-2010, 08:21 AM
A pendulum stroke with a loose grip carried to completion tends to end up this way.

dr_dave
03-09-2010, 09:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard of a style that has the end of every stroke finishing with the tip down on the cloth. Anyone who uses and/or teaches this technique care to explain the advantages? I am very curious.</div></div>The tip finishes down with a pure pendulum stroke. For the tip to finish straight ahead or up, with a near-level cue, the elbow must drop after the tip hits the CB. For video demos, rationale, and more info, see:

pendulum vs. piston stroke (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#pendulum)
elbow drop (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow)

Regards,
Dave

JJFSTAR
03-10-2010, 08:46 AM
Thanks, very enlightening.

Scott Lee
03-11-2010, 10:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div>The tip finishes down with a pure pendulum stroke. For the tip to finish straight ahead or up, with a near-level cue, the elbow must drop after the tip hits the CB. For video demos, rationale, and more info, see:

pendulum vs. piston stroke (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#pendulum)
elbow drop (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow)

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

Dave...That is not necessarily true. It depends on a person's body style, and how high or low they stand over the shot. That's why we say the tip will finish level OR pointing down (may or may not be on the cloth, depending on several variables).

Scott Lee

dr_dave
03-12-2010, 08:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div>The tip finishes down with a pure pendulum stroke. For the tip to finish straight ahead or up, with a near-level cue, the elbow must drop after the tip hits the CB. For video demos, rationale, and more info, see:

pendulum vs. piston stroke (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#pendulum)
elbow drop (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow)

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

Dave...That is not necessarily true. It depends on a person's body style, and how high or low they stand over the shot. That's why we say the tip will finish level OR pointing down (may or may not be on the cloth, depending on several variables).</div></div>With a pure pendulum stroke, and the forearm perpendicular to the cue, how can the tip finish level? If the grip hand comes up (on the forward pendulum), the tip must go down right? Now, if you have a short follow-through, the tip won't go down much, but it can't finish "level" unless the grip is behind perpendicular at ball contact, right?

Thanks,
Dave

DeadCrab
03-12-2010, 09:16 AM
******************
With a pure pendulum stroke, and the forearm perpendicular to the cue, how can the tip finish level? If the grip hand comes up (on the forward pendulum), the tip must go down right? Now, if you have a short follow-through, the tip won't go down much, but it can't finish "level" unless the grip is behind perpendicular at ball contact, right?
**********************

Not necessarily. Ulnar deviation of the wrist after passing through the low point of the stroke arc can keep the cue level.

If the wrist motion is fixed in the stroke plane, and the grip loose, then the tip must go down.

dr_dave
03-12-2010, 10:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ******************
With a pure pendulum stroke, and the forearm perpendicular to the cue, how can the tip finish level? If the grip hand comes up (on the forward pendulum), the tip must go down right? Now, if you have a short follow-through, the tip won't go down much, but it can't finish "level" unless the grip is behind perpendicular at ball contact, right?
**********************

Not necessarily. Ulnar deviation of the wrist after passing through the low point of the stroke arc can keep the cue level.</div></div>Good point. I was assuming the grip wasn't changing during the stroke.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the wrist motion is fixed in the stroke plane, and the grip loose, then the tip must go down.</div></div>Agreed.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
03-13-2010, 12:19 AM
x'ackly, ..... it's motion mechanics 101, or sumthin else

1Time
03-15-2010, 12:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A pendulum stroke with a loose grip carried to completion tends to end up this way. </div></div>Correct.

The tip / shaft won't finish at the same place / angle on every shot. For the most part this should not even be a consideration or concern. It's just something else to geek up your stroke / game. However, if trying to duplicate a shot, for example a break, paying attention to the finish of the tip / shaft angle can help.

acuerate
03-15-2010, 03:51 AM
Interesting point ...

Yet ! if you consider that the cuetip is only in contact with the cue ball for about 5 mm (max) (this demonstrated clearly after high speed camera experiments) it does NOT really matter where the cue tip ends !! Important is the 'arc' or 'curve' of your swing because you want to hit the cue ball at a certan predefined spot (with or without side spin, centre, above or under the centre) ... the 'arc' or 'curve' of your shot (and believe me everybody has this arc or curve) will determine if you hit the cue ball exactly where you want to hit it and if the cue is in line with the intended direction of aim ... if not :you're in trouble ...
But once the cue has hit the cue ball (after 5 mm on impact) you can do with your cue what you want !!! Obviously there is a natural follow through of the cue which is a result of the previous 'path' of the cue ...

Something to reflect about ...

Enjoy the game,

Johan

BillyJack
03-15-2010, 05:38 AM
When I took up golf many years ago, I digested a ton of instructional material. I learned that, even at the pro level, many good players would think or recite a short "swing key" before every swing. I carried this over to pool. "Tip down" or "tip to table" is a phrase I use as a "stroke key" in practice. Even though the tip rarely touches the cloth, I find that it helps me in a number of areas; improved follow through, more pendulum-like stroke with less tendency to drop my elbow, enhanced draw action and less likely to jump up after contact. A very valuable aid IMO.
Bill

pooltchr
03-15-2010, 08:06 AM
Here is an interesting thought. We have two schools of thought on how to hit a cue ball...the pendilum group who allows that the cue will move in an arc, and the piston strokers who think the cue should move in a straight line.

When a golf club strikes the golf ball, is the head of the club moving straight, or is it moving along an arc?

When a baseball bat hits the baseball, is it moving straight forward, or is it moving in an arc?

When a hammer hits a nail, is it moving in a straight line, or moving in an arc?

Do we ever hit anything by moving in a perfectly straight line?

Steve

Madmax1100
03-15-2010, 08:39 AM
A simple drill but one that has helped me with my stroke.

acuerate
03-15-2010, 09:22 AM
Interesting point !

Yet! we should be aware, as mentioned in my post on hitting the cue ball straight ..., that the cuetip is only in contact with the CB over a distance of about 5 mm (after impact) ... same counts for a golfclub versus golfball... in other words ! piston or pendulum will only have an impact within the 5mm (from point of impact to 5 mm further) ...
Pendulum will have the advantage that you will have a better screw shot (draw as you call it, I suppose) because if you drop the tip end you might miss-cue) ... Others who have a tendancy to 'lift' the cue tip slightly will have a big problem with scrw shots and should start of aiming even lower on the CB ... (this a bit of advise for those who have a tendency to lift during the shot !) ...
As far as snooker top concerns : all are using what you call 'piston' but that's accomplished by opening and closing the hand which holds the but end of the cue ... You can easily excercise this by placing this hand on the table and by practicing your 'swing' ... while doing this your hand should stay in contact with the table. This way you are sure your swing is straight (piston) ...

Hope this is helpful,

Enjoy your game,

Johan

acuerate
03-15-2010, 09:24 AM
Correction !!!

Where I mention 'Pendulum' will be easier for srew shots ... i obviously mean 'Piston' !!!

Cheers,
Johan

1Time
03-15-2010, 11:42 AM
You're not seeing the forest for this one tree - duration of contact.

(A) All of this varies with different shots (and cues / tips) during contact with the CB: the length of time for contact, the amount of cue tip that is in contact, and the angle of contact (which does not necessarily maintain a straight trajectory during contact).

(B) The purpose of the stroke (beginning to follow through) is to affect these variables during contact such that the shot is controlled as desired.

(C) How the cue is handled / stroked before, during, and after contact helps (B).

Like I said earlier, paying particular attention to the follow through position can help when trying to duplicate shots like a break shot. A rough explanation... it's like drawing a line between points A--B--C, where A is the cue being stroked before contact; B is during contact; and C is the cue being stroked after contact. "B" gets in the way of "A" and "C".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting point ...

Yet ! if you consider that the cuetip is only in contact with the cue ball for about 5 mm (max) (this demonstrated clearly after high speed camera experiments) it does NOT really matter where the cue tip ends !! </div></div>

cushioncrawler
03-15-2010, 03:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.........Yet ! if you consider that the cuetip is only in contact with the cue ball for about 5 mm (max) (this demonstrated clearly after high speed camera experiments).....</div></div>I remember kalkulating that for a center'hit the kontakt distance iz near'nuff 8 times the kompression. So if the leather kompresses say 0.5mm then the kontakt iz 4mm. But, if the timber kompresses say 0.5mm, this potentially adds 4mm to the kontakt -- bringing it to 8mm -- but it dont -- koz of the way i did the kalkulations -- too komplikated to explain proply -- but the 8*Faktor iz based on what happens in the flatSpot itself.
madMac.

pooltchr
03-15-2010, 03:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.........Yet ! if you consider that the cuetip is only in contact with the cue ball for about 5 mm (max) (this demonstrated clearly after high speed camera experiments).....</div></div>I remember kalkulating that for a center'hit the kontakt distance iz near'nuff 8 times the kompression. So if the leather kompresses say 0.5mm then the kontakt iz 4mm. But, if the timber kompresses say 0.5mm, this potentially adds 4mm to the kontakt -- bringing it to 8mm -- but it dont -- koz of the way i did the kalkulations -- too komplikated to explain proply -- but the 8*Faktor iz based on what happens in the flatSpot itself.
madMac. </div></div>


Much too complicated. Just look at the size of the chalk mark on a cue ball to see how much tip actually contacts the cue ball.

Steve

cushioncrawler
03-15-2010, 03:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.........Yet ! if you consider that the cuetip is only in contact with the cue ball for about 5 mm (max) (this demonstrated clearly after high speed camera experiments).....</div></div>quote=cushioncrawler]I remember kalkulating that for a center'hit the kontakt distance iz near'nuff 8 times the kompression. So if the leather kompresses say 0.5mm then the kontakt iz 4mm. But, if the timber kompresses say 0.5mm, this potentially adds 4mm to the kontakt -- bringing it to 8mm -- but it dont -- koz of the way i did the kalkulations -- too komplikated to explain proply -- but the 8*Faktor iz based on what happens in the flatSpot itself.
madMac. [/quote]<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Much too complicated. Just look at the size of the chalk mark on a cue ball to see how much tip actually contacts the cue ball. Steve</div></div>I wonder what iz the distance that the Qball penetrates into the leather -- one kood do a largeScale drawing, based on the size of that chalkMark.
madMac.

pooltchr
03-15-2010, 05:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what iz the distance that the Qball penetrates into the leather -- one kood do a largeScale drawing, based on the size of that chalkMark.
madMac. </div></div>

Does it really matter?

Steve

cushioncrawler
03-15-2010, 06:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what iz the distance that the Qball penetrates into the leather -- one kood do a largeScale drawing, based on the size of that chalkMark.
madMac.</div></div>Does it really matter? Steve</div></div>The depth of sqeez of the leather, and the shortening of the Qstick, and the distance travelled by the Qball whilst in kontakt, dont matter -- excepting praps for when players or regulators argue about the rules. But theorists luv this sort of stuff.
madMac.

acuerate
03-17-2010, 05:46 AM
Interesting debate ...

Just wanted to add something here. The contact distance is obviously based on a few different parameters ... but if you consider two similar shots with left hand centre side spin for instance and playd with two different cues (a heavy cue and a lighter cue) ... then there is only one parameter to consider : the weight of the cue. If you swing both cues with the same speed then there is the universal law (I love these universal laws :-) ) of action and reaction. The cue hits the CB and the CB 'hits back' ... this means that the cue will slow down !!! The heavier cue will not slow down so fast which means that the contact distance will be a bit longer ... this means that it could incude more deflection surely when it's a standard cue.

This is one of the reasons why it's better to play with a lighter cue :-) surely now that the balls of our Belgium friends (Saluc - Aramith) are much more reactive then the balls used 25 years ago :-)

Hope this tip is useful,

Enjoy the game,

Johan

cushioncrawler
03-17-2010, 02:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acuerate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting debate ... Just wanted to add something here. The contact distance is obviously based on a few different parameters ... but if you consider two similar shots with left hand centre side spin for instance and playd with two different cues (a heavy cue and a lighter cue) ... then there is only one parameter to consider : the weight of the cue. If you swing both cues with the same speed then there is the universal law (I love these universal laws :-) ) of action and reaction. The cue hits the CB and the CB 'hits back' ... this means that the cue will slow down !!! The heavier cue will not slow down so fast which means that the contact distance will be a bit longer ... this means that it could include more deflection surely when it's a standard cue. This is one of the reasons why it's better to play with a lighter cue :-) surely now that the balls of our Belgium friends (Saluc - Aramith) are much more reactive than the balls used 25 years ago :-) Hope this tip is useful, Enjoy the game, Johan</div></div>In the past i hav sayd that......
A stiffer cue givz the Qball more squirt.
A softer tip likewize.
[And of course az we all know less wt near tip givz less squirt.]

But i hav sayd that.......
A harder hit givz less squirt [harder = Qball goze faster] -- which iz sort of the opposit of what u sayd.

I agree that that heavy cue that u mentioned will hav a bigger kontakt distance -- ie bigger than when the same cue haz less wt.

But a lighter cue haztabe stroked faster (for most shots) -- hencly it iznt obvious to me that its better in some way.
And, it iz even less obvious that any of this meens that its better to play with.

Regarding the Krappamiths -- long'time members here know what i think about theze soft heaps of shit.
They are vitreous balls with a bakelite center -- they are not really bakelite balls with a vitreous coating.
Krappamith go on and on about how good the bakelite center iz -- but they dont tell u anything about the material that makes the Krappamith a Krappamith.
Kicks and skids are guaranteed.
madMac.

Scott Lee
03-19-2010, 11:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A pendulum stroke with a loose grip carried to completion tends to end up this way. </div></div>Correct.

The tip / shaft won't finish at the same place / angle on every shot. For the most part this should not even be a consideration or concern. It's just something else to geek up your stroke / game. However, if trying to duplicate a shot, for example a break, paying attention to the finish of the tip / shaft angle can help. </div></div>

One Time...This just shows how much you don't know. With a pendulum stroke, the tip will finish in the SAME place on every shot, as long as you swing on the same template...which is what measuring and understanding your template is all about. The template helps ensure that you use the same process on every shot. The only thing that changes is tip elevation and forward velocity of the cuestick.

Scott Lee

LWW
03-20-2010, 03:28 PM
Without reading every post, here's my take ... once the tip has hit the CB it really doesn't matter what you do, and you could spring in the air and do a backflip.

That being said, NOT following through properly leads to popups before the proper contact is made.

Following through is just a simple way to force ones self to learn to never ever move until the CB has been struck.

LWW

JoeW
03-29-2010, 06:05 AM
Seems to me that it more about the angle of attack than the length of contact for various types of strokes. A cue that is on its way to the cloth has a different angle than a cue that is level with the table after contact. With some types of strokes the cue ball is struck at an off angle and thus may produce a different hit than when in the cue stick strikes with a glancing blow. Glancing blows are more likely to lead to something like a miscue or a less accurate hit.

Where the cue tip comes to rest tells the player more about the type of stroke that was used. Try playing a draw shot from the rail with the cue ball 6" away and then the "same" draw shot with a level cue. There are substantial differences in the type of draw obtained.

When learning to control the cue ball the angle at which the cue ball is struck (and the resulting cue tip position)is more important than some people would think. I think this is one of the reasons it is difficult to learn to control the cue ball. One does not always want the same angle of attack and must therefore learn what the different angles of attack produce.

DickLeonard
05-12-2010, 03:07 PM
JoeW I had WILLIE MOSCONI run 139 and out on me with a slip stroke that kept his stroke pretty level. ####

JoeW
05-12-2010, 07:07 PM
Unlike the “pure” pendulum position I think that keeping the cue level or on its way to the cloth is important for insuring that the angle of attack is repeatable.

It is one thing to have a repeatable stroke it is another to use the same type of finish for each type of shot. A consistent finish does not necessarily result from the pendulum it results from what we do with the stroke after contact is made.

Contact may only last for a split second and may not penetrate the ball very far but the angle of attack, as revealed by the place the cue tip finishes, is the important issue (to me) for consistent movement of the cue ball.

I would bet the Willie M and his slip stroke was very consistent with where his tip came to rest for various types of shots.

1Time
05-13-2010, 03:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A pendulum stroke with a loose grip carried to completion tends to end up this way. </div></div>Correct.

The tip / shaft won't finish at the same place / angle on every shot. For the most part this should not even be a consideration or concern. It's just something else to geek up your stroke / game. However, if trying to duplicate a shot, for example a break, paying attention to the finish of the tip / shaft angle can help. </div></div>

One Time...This just shows how much you don't know. With a pendulum stroke, the tip will finish in the SAME place on every shot, as long as you swing on the same template...which is what measuring and understanding your template is all about. The template helps ensure that you use the same process on every shot. The only thing that changes is tip elevation and forward velocity of the cuestick.

Scott Lee </div></div>

I posted nothing here that remotely warrants such pointless disagreement.

The shorter the stroke, the less downward pointing the tip will be. The longer the stroke (more follow through), the more downward pointing the tip will be with a pendulum-like stroke. Again, the tip / shaft won't finish at the same place / angle on every shot.

I mean this is pretty simple straight forward reasoning. And yet Scott Lee disagreed and made a claim that is obviously wrong... "finish in the SAME place on every shot". Is this what you people instruct your students?

DickLeonard
05-15-2010, 11:23 AM
JOE W I went to dinner with Willie and he said he hated to always feel that he had to run 150 and out. A fete he accomplished a good deal of the time.####