PDA

View Full Version : Something you won't see on Fox



Qtec
03-14-2010, 09:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Fallujah doctors report rise in birth defects</span>

Doctors in the Iraqi city of Fallujah are reporting a high level of birth defects, with some blaming weapons used by the US after the Iraq invasion.

The city witnessed fierce fighting in 2004 as US forces carried out a major offensive against insurgents.

<u>Now, the level of heart defects among newborn babies is said to be 13 times higher than in Europe.
</u>
The US military says it is not aware of any official reports showing an increase in birth defects in the area.

BBC world affairs editor John Simpson visited a new, US-funded hospital in Fallujah where paediatrician Samira al-Ani told him that she was seeing as many as two or three cases a day, mainly cardiac defects.

Professor Alastair Hay from Leeds University says the cause of the birth defects is still in doubt

Our correspondent also saw children in the city who were suffering from paralysis or brain damage - <u>and a photograph of one baby who was born with three heads </u></div></div>
link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8548707.stm)
Q

Chilled
03-14-2010, 11:36 PM
It was definitely widely covered on Fox's cousin Sky.

On the face of it this may seem very damning to aspects of coalition munitions but as the gentleman from Leeds University said on the associated clip, no firm or reliable conclusions can be drawn without a detailed independent investigation. However, realistically that's never going to happen.

Instances may well be 13 times those of Europe. What would be more relevant would be how far the the rate in Fallujah exeeds the rates in comparable muslim Middle East areas. Without being in any way racist or biased against any particular religion, it must be said that for a number of assorted reasons, not the least of which being marriages between very close blood relatives over several generations, there are generally higher incidences of birth defects in that region than in most of Europe whether there has been any warfare or not.

If the local doctors insist they see marked increase and the incidence rates far exceeed other Middle East defect rates in comparable societies then you at least will have the starting point of knowing pretty much for sure that the rate is abnormal. Right now they don't even have that so are a long way from ever finding out reliably why any abnormal rate exists.

sack316
03-15-2010, 02:41 AM
Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more.

Like perhaps, as BBC news referred to as "new U.S. funded hospitals" are simply reporting more accurate statistics than was ever reported under the old regime. Or maybe use of chemical warfare there for so long, even prior to our fighting there as well as during, could be the culprit. Who knows? Could be any number of things.

That's not to say it's not possible. But I don't see similar reports hailing out of Afghanistan. To my knowledge, our weaponry in either region is not overwhelmingly different.

A serious problem has been discovered, and I hope a solution comes from it. But I'll wait before blaming a culprit until someone actually knows the cause.

Sack

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 02:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But I don't see similar reports hailing out of Afghanistan </div></div>
So, you are dismissing the Iraq reports then? Amazing how your side always tries to compare events to something else in an attempt to discredit them......I. E.: the Bush war and the Clinton BJ.....
Here's my take....the Iraq reports stands on it's own merits, and just because similar events have not been occurring at an alarming rate in Alabama...or have they?...it merits looking into.
I've always said two heads are better then one, but not so sure about having three.

ugotda7
03-15-2010, 03:29 AM
What are the "highly sophisticated weapons the US troops used in Fallujah six years ago."

So I guess the teenagers I saw over in Iraq a few years back with six fingers and toes are our fault too? Maybe we zapped them with our little known weapon - sharks with laser beams on their heads.

Let me cut to the bottom line - this is just another load of BS by anti-war folks to get attention from the usual gullible bleeding heart liberals.

sack316
03-15-2010, 03:30 AM
WTF dude? You seem to like that word with me lately.

discredit: to cause disbelief in the accuracy or authority of.

Did I say the reports were untrue? Did I say the statistics were wrong? Nope.

Did anyone say that the cause of the defects are certainly US weaponry? Nope, that hasn't been shown either. That is speculation and opinion. To which I also even said "That's not to say it's not possible". See, that phrase means, it IS possible. Were I trying to discredit it, I would not have been likely to say it.

What I AM saying is that I would like to know what the cause is before overwhelming speculation.

Since I know you don't actually go read and research or learn on your own, but rather just pick out the few posters you like to respond to and then go on auto-pilot with an either "pro" or "con" response:

The case for this (and a valid one) is the use of depleted uranium in ammo. The effects of which have been linked to cancer, birth defects, etc. We do use this. We were the first to use this IIRC. We used it in our first trip over there. And it was linked to a spike in cancer in the area, as well as questioned about our own troops gulf war syndrome. And it's a very logical argument. But then other studies have shown that british troops who served at that same time found no Gulf War syndrome. So here we have one material, with people in the same environment and same exposure, but different results. So in that instance, while I also believe the material is the cause of many bad things, one couldn't make the argument of material being the causation of that particular syndrome. So one must keep looking. That's how things should work.

Now, since the Gulf war, other countries have used similar weaponry, especially over there. You can find such instances on the Gaza Strip with Israel's use.

For the purposes of this story in the thread, there are several possibilities. Some I listed originally such as their own chemical warfare that was used internally. Or that perhaps medical records are NOW being more accurately reported, hence a spike in REPORTED numbers, but not necessarily a spike in the event itself. Or one could go on and on listed factors that could contribute... ourselves being included. Repeat... ourselves being included. Personally I'd bet it is a combination of many factors. BUT, also given the same weaponry being used in both locations, IF "X" were the cause of 'something', and "X" is present in multiple locations, but only one location lists the happening of 'something', then one cannot conclude "X" as THE cause for 'something'.

One cannot definitively disprove it either, mind you. Which is why further study and research would be needed to find out the whole story.

Which is why I originally said "Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more."

OK, I'll repeat again for you since you've seemed to be struggling lately, and try to summarize the portion you think you take issue with. Our ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan is the same. Iraq reports spike in birth defects, blame is going on us. Afghanistan has no similar report I am aware of. With the known information, it cannot be concluded (or disproven) that our weaponry is the cause. Not right now at least. Right now it is an opinion.

That is not an attempt to dismiss or discredit, that is how science works to find answers. Remember (since you brought up sides) how much your side trusts that.

Oh, and birth defects in Alabama and the US are indeed rising, and any rise is an "alarming rate". But that's another discussion that would get into how we handle and grow foods, steroids, chemicals, etc. I don't know a great deal on that, but actually Gayle does know quite a bit on that topic and what is "good" or "bad" food if you are truly interested.

Sack

ugotda7
03-15-2010, 03:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF dude? You seem to like that word with me lately.

discredit: to cause disbelief in the accuracy or authority of.

Did I say the reports were untrue? Did I say the statistics were wrong? Nope.

Did anyone say that the cause of the defects are certainly US weaponry? Nope, that hasn't been shown either. That is speculation and opinion. To which I also even said "That's not to say it's not possible". See, that phrase means, it IS possible. Were I trying to discredit it, I would not have been likely to say it.

What I AM saying is that I would like to know what the cause is before overwhelming speculation.

Since I know you don't actually go read and research or learn on your own, but rather just pick out the few posters you like to respond to and then go on auto-pilot with an either "pro" or "con" response:

The case for this (and a valid one) is the use of depleted uranium in ammo. The effects of which have been linked to cancer, birth defects, etc. We do use this. We were the first to use this IIRC. We used it in our first trip over there. And it was linked to a spike in cancer in the area, as well as questioned about our own troops gulf war syndrome. And it's a very logical argument. But then other studies have shown that british troops who served at that same time found no Gulf War syndrome. So here we have one material, with people in the same environment and same exposure, but different results. So in that instance, while I also believe the material is the cause of many bad things, one couldn't make the argument of material being the causation of that particular syndrome. So one must keep looking. That's how things should work.

Now, since the Gulf war, other countries have used similar weaponry, especially over there. You can find such instances on the Gaza Strip with Israel's use.

For the purposes of this story in the thread, there are several possibilities. Some I listed originally such as their own chemical warfare that was used internally. Or that perhaps medical records are NOW being more accurately reported, hence a spike in REPORTED numbers, but not necessarily a spike in the event itself. Or one could go on and on listed factors that could contribute... ourselves being included. Repeat... ourselves being included. Personally I'd bet it is a combination of many factors. BUT, also given the same weaponry being used in both locations, IF "X" were the cause of 'something', and "X" is present in multiple locations, but only one location lists the happening of 'something', then one cannot conclude "X" as THE cause for 'something'.

One cannot definitively disprove it either, mind you. Which is why further study and research would be needed to find out the whole story.

Which is why I originally said "Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more."

OK, I'll repeat again for you since you've seemed to be struggling lately, and try to summarize the portion you think you take issue with. Our ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan is the same. Iraq reports spike in birth defects, blame is going on us. Afghanistan has no similar report I am aware of. With the known information, it cannot be concluded (or disproven) that our weaponry is the cause. Not right now at least. Right now it is an opinion.

That is not an attempt to dismiss or discredit, that is how science works to find answers. Remember (since you brought up sides) how much your side trusts that.

Oh, and birth defects in Alabama and the US are indeed rising, and any rise is an "alarming rate". But that's another discussion that would get into how we handle and grow foods, steroids, chemicals, etc. I don't know a great deal on that, but actually Gayle does know quite a bit on that topic and what is "good" or "bad" food if you are truly interested.

Sack
</div></div>


Here you go, check this out - if I'm addressing you in a post I'll quote you.....notice how I did that with this post.

But yeah, gullible is the word of the day over here......well, from what I've seen since Hondo invited me over it seems to be the word of every day.

sack316
03-15-2010, 03:56 AM
yeah, addressing is nice. I was addressing Wolfie, figured the (re: Wolfdancer) on my post was enough since he was who I was addressing with that.

But I'm not so sure "gullible" is always a strong enough word to describe some of the days around here /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 03:56 AM
Only thing that I said.... the birth defects in Iraq, stand on their own merit....and should be looked into for the cause...mabye there are long term health effects on our ground soldiers? ....maybe it's the introduction of that southern cooking... hog maws and fried chitlings, hominy grits, and turnip greens.....look what that causes over here
You just made your own assumptions from there.
Thing is though....most people do not want war, and would like to avoid it, or resolve the current conflict. They may be bleeding heart liberals to you...and they might also be the parents of someone killed, or maimed, over there. It's costly in human lives, and it's creating a monetary debt that can never be repaid.
You sound all in favor of the war, and since you were there, you have first hand info....I only see the videos of the flag draped coffins, and occasionally some photos of our wounded.
I'm an old man....and you are right..with my liberal bleeding heart, it does bother me to see so many young people's lives ruined, or taken away.
Well, maybe when your group takes over the country....you can put an end to liberals, and free thinkers.

sack316
03-15-2010, 04:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only thing that I said.... the birth defects in Iraq, stand on their own merit....and should be looked into for the cause .... </div></div>

You do realize that I actually said nothing different than that in my post which you felt the need to jump all over, right? To save you some scrolling, here is what I said originally:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more.

Like perhaps, as BBC news referred to as "new U.S. funded hospitals" are simply reporting more accurate statistics than was ever reported under the old regime. Or maybe use of chemical warfare there for so long, even prior to our fighting there as well as during, could be the culprit. Who knows? Could be any number of things.

That's not to say it's not possible. But I don't see similar reports hailing out of Afghanistan. To my knowledge, our weaponry in either region is not overwhelmingly different.

A serious problem has been discovered, and I hope a solution comes from it. But I'll wait before blaming a culprit until someone actually knows the cause.

Sack </div></div>

So taking what you said above, and comparing it with what I said originally... what was the problem/difference of opinion???

Sack

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 04:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's not to say it's not possible. But I don't see similar reports hailing out of Afghanistan. To my knowledge, our weaponry in either region is not overwhelmingly different. </div></div>
You may have modified your stance somewhat in your next paragraph, but I read what I stated ...into this one.

ugotda7
03-15-2010, 04:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah, addressing is nice. I was addressing Wolfie, figured the (re: Wolfdancer) on my post was enough since he was who I was addressing with that.

But I'm not so sure "gullible" is always a strong enough word to describe some of the days around here /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack </div></div>


OK, my fault, I guess I'm confused..........I blame Hondo.

sack316
03-15-2010, 04:30 AM
Mt stance is the same throughout, my opinion didn't change at all in the few minutes I took to type it.

The fact that the same occurrences of a spike in birth defects have not been shown in 2 different places where the supposed culprit DOES exist in both doesn't matter to you? Because to me, that's more reason to study it further and figure out what is going on... which is what we both are saying. Had Afghanistan had similar problems arising, one could then easily look to the DU as a "most likely" factor. But it doesn't, and that's important. You know that. So I'll fix your comment for you:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You may have modified your stance somewhat in your next paragraph, but I read what <s>I stated </s> wanted to...into this one. </div></div>

Sack

sack316
03-15-2010, 04:30 AM
Quite alright.

Sack

sack316
03-15-2010, 04:35 AM
Oh, and Q to the topic name of this thread... Fox did report on this back in Nov and Dec. just so you know.

I hope BBC wasn't 4 months behind Fox on this one! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 04:49 AM
well, that is easily addressed....lww has stated that "we" couldn't make it over there.....so all you guys that believe that you are a "cut above".....why waste your time over here?????
I'd head there if'n I was anywhere near as smart as youse iz.
I enjoy spending some time with my friends two young uns.....but, like you two, hanging here....it's not very stimulating to the brain....
Now, if you are here on an altruistic, educational mission, like tchr; trying to enlighten us.....hold off for awhile, as right now all we can handle is the round ball tournament that the <s>NAAC..</s>, er... the NCAA, is putting on fer us.
"Gullible" would be buying into the BS, second hand news from Fox, that is put out here as Gospel.......Speaking of Gospel...whatever happened to Jerry Failwell?

Qtec
03-15-2010, 05:47 AM
Got a link? I looked for it but couldn't find it.

Q

sack316
03-15-2010, 06:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a link? I looked for it but couldn't find it.

Q </div></div>

I've got a memory, that sometimes works (more often, it doesn't unfortunately lol). But for you, I'll hunt down an example:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,578297,00.html?sPage=fnc/health/cancer

Sack

Qtec
03-15-2010, 07:21 AM
Thanks for the link but ........was that it?
No in depth discussion on Hanity etc etc. ir any mention on this on tv?

Q

sack316
03-15-2010, 07:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the link but ........was that it?
No in depth discussion on Hanity etc etc. ir any mention on this on tv?

Q </div></div>

I recall seeing it on TV sometime back a few months ago. Don't recall for certain which show, but believe it was on in the morning show when I'm sometimes flipping between them, HLN, and MSNBC. Anyway, that's what made me look. And a quick easy search came up with that article you 'looked for but couldn't find'.

Don't think that is it, but I'm not clicking on tons of links for this anyway. So here ya go: Prob the easiest way to look if you want to (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=iraq+birth+defects&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=www.foxnews.com&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=off)

At any rate, it was something you'd see on Fox apparently... and 4 months earlier than the article provided here. But I'll let you play the game now and see if BBC news really got beat. I honestly doubt it, but wanna make you do some work now /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack

Qtec
03-15-2010, 07:45 AM
Thanks again.

I liked this report, 'Fair and Balanced'.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Iraq War Not Over for Junk Scientists

Friday , April 18, 2003
By Steven Milloy

FC1
ADVERTISEMENT

The war in Iraq is pretty much over, except for <u>junk scientists</u>. For them, the war may continue for decades <span style='font-size: 14pt'>just like Vietnam.</span>

Two developments bear this out.

The United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) last week announced it would study sites in Iraq where armor-piercing weapons containing depleted uranium (DU) were used by coalition forces.

Then, a new study was published this week in the journal Nature reporting the amount of Agent Orange sprayed in Vietnam was significantly underestimated. The researchers called for more study of U.S. troops and Vietnamese civilians in the sprayed areas.

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>Both lines of study are baseless.</span></div></div>

LOL

Chilled
03-15-2010, 08:07 AM
I'm not saying it has any great significance, in fact I only mention it because no-one else has and everyone so far seems to be concentrating on just depleted uranium.....but the gentleman from Leeds University on the video specifically mentioned the example of phosphorus as well.

sack316
03-15-2010, 08:33 AM
lol, yeah that one was 'interesting' to say the least and put it Mildly. Malloy is a strange guy. I don't think he believes in any chemical having any effect on anything ever. But glad to see it filed under "opinion".

Sack

Gayle in MD
03-15-2010, 10:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more.

Like perhaps, as BBC news referred to as "new U.S. funded hospitals" are simply reporting more accurate statistics than was ever reported under the old regime. Or maybe use of chemical warfare there for so long, even prior to our fighting there as well as during, could be the culprit. Who knows? Could be any number of things.

That's not to say it's not possible. But I don't see similar reports hailing out of Afghanistan. To my knowledge, our weaponry in either region is not overwhelmingly different.

A serious problem has been discovered, and I hope a solution comes from it. But I'll wait before blaming a culprit until someone actually knows the cause.

Sack </div></div>

"new U.S. funded hospitals"

What's the relevance of these quoted words. Just wondering, is there a tie in of some sort to the issue of whether or not our troops were using weapons which caused birth defects to the unborn? Obviously, it wouldn't be the first time, our country did this, but my questions is why do we support Isreal, which absolutly does do it, but justify invading Iraq, over WMD used against people, and destroying what was left of their infrastructure, killing hundreds of thousands of people in the process, yet consider Isreal our ally? The leaders of both countries had been thumbing their noses at us for decades.

What gets me about our foreign policy is that there is no consistancy, yet our government tries to justify every so called inhumane "Warring" intervention by us, while at the same time, we completely ignore raging genocides in Africa, and elsewhere, for a decades?

No consistancy????????????

Yet think of the amount of suffering and human tragedy that WE cause to the global masses.

I have read that cancer rates skyrocketed right here in our country, after our original testings for the bomb. Some say that the continued rise in cancer rates, still bear a great deal of linkage to those tests, all these decades later.

We know what it did to the Japanese levels of cancer, and birth defects.

Then decades later, Bush warns us of a possible coming mushroom cloud, using it as a justification for more carnage and killing, and what may be more devastating birth defects elsewhere, suppsedly to help Iraqis????? When we already blew one up in our own country, and hurt our own people in testing in order to do so, hurt those already born and the unborn.....

Then we squabble over things like stem cell research???? Something with the potentil to save lives, and make others suffer less?

All of it is insanely irresponsible, IMO. There is no justification for any of it as far as I'm concerned. It's all just more symbols of how uncivilized the world still is, including the USA.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

sack316
03-15-2010, 12:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"new U.S. funded hospitals"

What's the relevance of these quoted words. Just wondering, is there a tie in of some sort to the issue of whether or not our troops were using weapons which caused birth defects to the unborn?
</div></div>

The relevance in terms of what I was saying is that there is a free flow of information for us to receive such data now that otherwise may not have been available. I mean, we have similar countries that claim to have no homosexuals in hopes of keeping up appearances of... well I dunno why, toughness or purity hell I don't know lol. So it's not far fetched to think Iraq (Hussein) would not want the world aware of high frequencies of birth defects. So I was just saying it's possible (may or may not be the case) that the numbers may now seem spiked due to such an occurrence.

Of course, the flip side I suppose on that topic would be we ourselves could have control of data if we were looking to cover our own butts too.

At any rate, I think it's tragic regardless of what the cause may be, and certainly hope it can be addressed and fixed.

Sack

eg8r
03-15-2010, 12:23 PM
Why do you think these doctors never passed this info off to the military?

eg8r

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 01:14 PM
I know that both you and lww have insider's info,re: the war....but maybe Gen. Petraeus didn't share "everything" with you,
as "loose lips, sink ships" (WWII saying)
Your premise is based on your assumption that everything is "same-same" (as a Mama San, once told me, when I inquired about the various goodies I was renting for the occasion).
I believe there is a name for that type of reasoning, but the name escapes me for the moment
http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/012408/circular-reasoning.gif

sack316
03-15-2010, 01:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your premise is based on your assumption that everything is "same-same"...
</div></div>

My "assumption" as you call it is based on numerous friends I have in the military that have bravely served during this time and have been deployed to both wars, in some instances multiple times.

If I, or they are mistaken, please just show me.

I am not saying EVERYTHING is same-same, try to follow here... the culprit being blamed is US ammo. The same type of ammo is being used in both places. That part is same-same. Do you follow the logic? or do we need to start over at the elementary school standardized tests and catch ya up with those questions like:

Only baseball players wear hats. Cookie does not wear a hat. From this information:
A) Cookie is a baseball player
B) Cookie is a girl
C) Cookie does not play baseball
D) Not enough information is given

Whatever you need friend, I'd love to help.

But I know you're just tryin to pick with me, and were I to create a new user and pose as a lefty for a few days, and then make this exact same post, you'd agree wholeheartedly.

Sack

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 02:45 PM
Sorry, only thing I know about baseball, I larned in "A League of Their Own". Also,I get my cookies from Girl Scouts...hmmm, that doesn't quite sound right....
As to trying to "pick on you"...I'd be over matched, as I am with most of you sterling right wing chaps over here.
Your post read one way to me, and I both commented and explained why in a subsequent reply. As lww and steve have claimed, we are intellectually inferior to the Republicans, so...
Since I did not know you were privy to insider's info re: both wars, I made the assumption that you had rushed to judgment, and it turned out that I were da one what done that.
I may not have your insight, but if there is a recent sharp increase in the number of birth defects in a particular area, I would be considering any recent "elements" that have been added to the equation.....
The movie and the true story it is based on, about chemical spills into the town's water....that proved to be the root cause of birth defects there....that name escapes me...but that came to mind when this topic came up.
But as you say, since it isn't also happening in Afghanistan....it must be sumthin else.....the "will of Allah', maybe

hondo
03-15-2010, 03:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF dude? You seem to like that word with me lately.

discredit: to cause disbelief in the accuracy or authority of.

Did I say the reports were untrue? Did I say the statistics were wrong? Nope.

Did anyone say that the cause of the defects are certainly US weaponry? Nope, that hasn't been shown either. That is speculation and opinion. To which I also even said "That's not to say it's not possible". See, that phrase means, it IS possible. Were I trying to discredit it, I would not have been likely to say it.

What I AM saying is that I would like to know what the cause is before overwhelming speculation.

Since I know you don't actually go read and research or learn on your own, but rather just pick out the few posters you like to respond to and then go on auto-pilot with an either "pro" or "con" response:

The case for this (and a valid one) is the use of depleted uranium in ammo. The effects of which have been linked to cancer, birth defects, etc. We do use this. We were the first to use this IIRC. We used it in our first trip over there. And it was linked to a spike in cancer in the area, as well as questioned about our own troops gulf war syndrome. And it's a very logical argument. But then other studies have shown that british troops who served at that same time found no Gulf War syndrome. So here we have one material, with people in the same environment and same exposure, but different results. So in that instance, while I also believe the material is the cause of many bad things, one couldn't make the argument of material being the causation of that particular syndrome. So one must keep looking. That's how things should work.

Now, since the Gulf war, other countries have used similar weaponry, especially over there. You can find such instances on the Gaza Strip with Israel's use.

For the purposes of this story in the thread, there are several possibilities. Some I listed originally such as their own chemical warfare that was used internally. Or that perhaps medical records are NOW being more accurately reported, hence a spike in REPORTED numbers, but not necessarily a spike in the event itself. Or one could go on and on listed factors that could contribute... ourselves being included. Repeat... ourselves being included. Personally I'd bet it is a combination of many factors. BUT, also given the same weaponry being used in both locations, IF "X" were the cause of 'something', and "X" is present in multiple locations, but only one location lists the happening of 'something', then one cannot conclude "X" as THE cause for 'something'.

One cannot definitively disprove it either, mind you. Which is why further study and research would be needed to find out the whole story.

Which is why I originally said "Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more."

OK, I'll repeat again for you since you've seemed to be struggling lately, and try to summarize the portion you think you take issue with. Our ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan is the same. Iraq reports spike in birth defects, blame is going on us. Afghanistan has no similar report I am aware of. With the known information, it cannot be concluded (or disproven) that our weaponry is the cause. Not right now at least. Right now it is an opinion.

That is not an attempt to dismiss or discredit, that is how science works to find answers. Remember (since you brought up sides) how much your side trusts that.

Oh, and birth defects in Alabama and the US are indeed rising, and any rise is an "alarming rate". But that's another discussion that would get into how we handle and grow foods, steroids, chemicals, etc. I don't know a great deal on that, but actually Gayle does know quite a bit on that topic and what is "good" or "bad" food if you are truly interested.

Sack
</div></div>




.well, from what I've seen since Hondo invited me over it seems to be the word of every day.


</div></div>

You lying,creepy POS. I wouldn't invite you anywhere.
You get some kind of perverse entertainment out of stalking me,
that's all.
As slimy as I find dub, you and punter and slide rule are the biggest creeps I've ever encountered on the forums.
I've tried to find some good in you guys but I can see no redeeming qualities, none.
You slither from forum to forum spreading hate.

I hope I haven't offended you.
I was just stating how I feel about you.
Have a wonderful day.

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 05:26 PM
It seems that he came over here for the same reason that AZB traded tchr back to us (for a player to be named later)....they were worried that others here, not quite as "keen" as they iz, would be unduly influenced by what you write, or what you wrote.
I made a couple of posts over there before.... "Kucho and the White Horde" went on the offensive....circling the wagons wasn't going to work, as I had the lone Conestoga wagon...it kind of felt like this:
http://www.cavhooah.com/images/hu-ambush.gif
or:
"Holy Cow, look at all them ******* Injuns"

pooltchr
03-15-2010, 06:17 PM
Do you ever post anything that is actually on topic?????????

Steve

wolfdancer
03-15-2010, 08:07 PM
I read that and thought Gee, isn't that a little harsh, for a reply to Sack?....but then looked again, and you were replying to the other guy.
If you don't mind though...can i use your post as a reply to Sack?
I think he is suffering from "March Madness", or sumthin...the Ides of March, maybe?

hondo
03-15-2010, 08:34 PM
Sack is okay in my book.

sack316
03-15-2010, 08:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, only thing I know about baseball, I larned in "A League of Their Own".</div></div>

You know a great deal about the great game, actually. I've always respected and enjoyed our baseball chats /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif but funny comment anyway.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to trying to "pick on you"...I'd be over matched, as I am with most of you sterling right wing chaps over here.</div></div>

I didn't so much mean picking "on" as picking "with"... or ribbing, or disagreeing for the sake of disagreement perhaps. At least that is what I have been hoping, because the alternative would really make me rethink your intellect (which I do have a high opinion of usually)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your post read one way to me, and I both commented and explained why in a subsequent reply.</div></div>

Just as I responded and explained to you as well, pointing out that our opinion was exactly the same even!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I did not know you were privy to insider's info re: both wars, I made the assumption that you had rushed to judgment, and it turned out that I were da one what done that.</div></div>

Well thanks for saying that last part. The solution is really simple there, if I or anyone says anything you believe to be untrue... look it up, and disprove it rather than just chiming in to disagree. That way, when you disagree, it has some merit rather than just appearing as a rant. And FWIW, I am not privy to any insider info that others are left in the dark on in this subject. I am only privy to common knowledge, public knowledge, and several conversations with soldiers. A chat with a guy/gal in uniform and a google search is not outside of your own abilities.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may not have your insight, but if there is a recent sharp increase in the number of birth defects in a particular area, I would be considering any recent "elements" that have been added to the equation.....</div></div>

Yes, exactly! And you're almost there! It is worth looking into, of course! But given the recent "element" that is being blamed in Iraq, one must find it odd that the same "element" has not to this point created a parallel result somewhere else said "element" is. That does not mean "element" is not the cause, it only means there may be other causes too.

Maybe it'll help to know why that is important. There is a huge problem in Iraq, that needs a solution. Right now blame seems to be placed on US ammo. But, given we have a similar environment to compare it to, with different results, it's also possible that there are different and/or other factors causing the problem. So if, say Iraq is treated to fix a problem caused by US ammo, but it turns out that other factors were the cause, then those "solutions" will not fix anything, and the problem will persist.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The movie and the true story it is based on, about chemical spills into the town's water....that proved to be the root cause of birth defects there....that name escapes me...but that came to mind when this topic came up.
But as you say, since it isn't also happening in Afghanistan....it must be sumthin else.....the "will of Allah', maybe </div></div>

Again, please read and take your time. I NEVER said it MUST be something else. Go read every post here, and you will find I said no such thing.

Sack

sack316
03-15-2010, 08:38 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sack is okay in my book. </div></div>

Thanks Hondo. Off topic, but I think I may be putting WV into the finals on my bracket. Final 4 at least, but I think they have the long arms and depth to run to the very end.

Sack

hondo
03-15-2010, 10:06 PM
I played 2 sheets.

In one I have Kentucky over Kansas in the final.
In the other I have WVU over Ohio St. in the final.

Add Cole Aldrich and Stephen Curry to this team and they'd be unbeatable.

I love them but they're winning with no center, no outside shooter,
and no point guard. Amazing.

Kentucky, otoh, has more future pros than Mary Hacker's whore house down the street.

Huggins should be coach of the year.
Although Frank Martin, Jamie Dixon, Steve Alford and Jim Beoheim have been great also.

ugotda7
03-15-2010, 11:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF dude? You seem to like that word with me lately.

discredit: to cause disbelief in the accuracy or authority of.

Did I say the reports were untrue? Did I say the statistics were wrong? Nope.

Did anyone say that the cause of the defects are certainly US weaponry? Nope, that hasn't been shown either. That is speculation and opinion. To which I also even said "That's not to say it's not possible". See, that phrase means, it IS possible. Were I trying to discredit it, I would not have been likely to say it.

What I AM saying is that I would like to know what the cause is before overwhelming speculation.

Since I know you don't actually go read and research or learn on your own, but rather just pick out the few posters you like to respond to and then go on auto-pilot with an either "pro" or "con" response:

The case for this (and a valid one) is the use of depleted uranium in ammo. The effects of which have been linked to cancer, birth defects, etc. We do use this. We were the first to use this IIRC. We used it in our first trip over there. And it was linked to a spike in cancer in the area, as well as questioned about our own troops gulf war syndrome. And it's a very logical argument. But then other studies have shown that british troops who served at that same time found no Gulf War syndrome. So here we have one material, with people in the same environment and same exposure, but different results. So in that instance, while I also believe the material is the cause of many bad things, one couldn't make the argument of material being the causation of that particular syndrome. So one must keep looking. That's how things should work.

Now, since the Gulf war, other countries have used similar weaponry, especially over there. You can find such instances on the Gaza Strip with Israel's use.

For the purposes of this story in the thread, there are several possibilities. Some I listed originally such as their own chemical warfare that was used internally. Or that perhaps medical records are NOW being more accurately reported, hence a spike in REPORTED numbers, but not necessarily a spike in the event itself. Or one could go on and on listed factors that could contribute... ourselves being included. Repeat... ourselves being included. Personally I'd bet it is a combination of many factors. BUT, also given the same weaponry being used in both locations, IF "X" were the cause of 'something', and "X" is present in multiple locations, but only one location lists the happening of 'something', then one cannot conclude "X" as THE cause for 'something'.

One cannot definitively disprove it either, mind you. Which is why further study and research would be needed to find out the whole story.

Which is why I originally said "Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more."

OK, I'll repeat again for you since you've seemed to be struggling lately, and try to summarize the portion you think you take issue with. Our ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan is the same. Iraq reports spike in birth defects, blame is going on us. Afghanistan has no similar report I am aware of. With the known information, it cannot be concluded (or disproven) that our weaponry is the cause. Not right now at least. Right now it is an opinion.

That is not an attempt to dismiss or discredit, that is how science works to find answers. Remember (since you brought up sides) how much your side trusts that.

Oh, and birth defects in Alabama and the US are indeed rising, and any rise is an "alarming rate". But that's another discussion that would get into how we handle and grow foods, steroids, chemicals, etc. I don't know a great deal on that, but actually Gayle does know quite a bit on that topic and what is "good" or "bad" food if you are truly interested.

Sack
</div></div>




.well, from what I've seen since Hondo invited me over it seems to be the word of every day.


</div></div>

You lying,creepy POS. I wouldn't invite you anywhere.
You get some kind of perverse entertainment out of stalking me,
that's all.
As slimy as I find dub, you and punter and slide rule are the biggest creeps I've ever encountered on the forums.
I've tried to find some good in you guys but I can see no redeeming qualities, none.
You slither from forum to forum spreading hate.

I hope I haven't offended you.
I was just stating how I feel about you.
Have a wonderful day. </div></div>


Tsk, tsk, language Hondo.

You invited me over by posting lies about me.....again, looking for some undeserving sympathy from the gullible folks over here. The funny part is that you actually thought you could get away with it.....like I wouldn't come over here and correct the record. You really should know better, but then again, learning from your past mistakes isn't your strong suit.

You better watch it, I'd hate for you to get "gang raped" again.

wolfdancer
03-16-2010, 12:50 AM
He's ok...we just operate on different wavelengths.
I ain't gonna bother him, and hopefully he'll just ignore me.

hondo
03-16-2010, 05:02 AM
Yep, I admit you bring out the worst in me.
I applaud you for serving your country, but
that's about the only good I see in you.

You're not the first loser to serve in the military.

You're like a micro-cosm of everything I hate about
the neo-cons.
Slimy, devious, twisting, jeering, sneering, lying,
hateful, arrogant, did I mention slimy? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

But it appears there are many like you on these forums
and, I imagine, in America.

I was raised to be an honest, decent man, and I think most
of the posters on here would agree with that.
You can twist my words, and, I admit I have over-reacted out of anger at times and said things I regret, but I'm not like you and your klan, thank God.

I could answer every one of your accusations of lies but what would be the point?
You know the truth. That's not your point in attacking me.

Flame away, ugo. You're on ignore from now on.

LWW
03-16-2010, 08:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF dude? You seem to like that word with me lately.

discredit: to cause disbelief in the accuracy or authority of.

Did I say the reports were untrue? Did I say the statistics were wrong? Nope.

Did anyone say that the cause of the defects are certainly US weaponry? Nope, that hasn't been shown either. That is speculation and opinion. To which I also even said "That's not to say it's not possible". See, that phrase means, it IS possible. Were I trying to discredit it, I would not have been likely to say it.

What I AM saying is that I would like to know what the cause is before overwhelming speculation.

Since I know you don't actually go read and research or learn on your own, but rather just pick out the few posters you like to respond to and then go on auto-pilot with an either "pro" or "con" response:

The case for this (and a valid one) is the use of depleted uranium in ammo. The effects of which have been linked to cancer, birth defects, etc. We do use this. We were the first to use this IIRC. We used it in our first trip over there. And it was linked to a spike in cancer in the area, as well as questioned about our own troops gulf war syndrome. And it's a very logical argument. But then other studies have shown that british troops who served at that same time found no Gulf War syndrome. So here we have one material, with people in the same environment and same exposure, but different results. So in that instance, while I also believe the material is the cause of many bad things, one couldn't make the argument of material being the causation of that particular syndrome. So one must keep looking. That's how things should work.

Now, since the Gulf war, other countries have used similar weaponry, especially over there. You can find such instances on the Gaza Strip with Israel's use.

For the purposes of this story in the thread, there are several possibilities. Some I listed originally such as their own chemical warfare that was used internally. Or that perhaps medical records are NOW being more accurately reported, hence a spike in REPORTED numbers, but not necessarily a spike in the event itself. Or one could go on and on listed factors that could contribute... ourselves being included. Repeat... ourselves being included. Personally I'd bet it is a combination of many factors. BUT, also given the same weaponry being used in both locations, IF "X" were the cause of 'something', and "X" is present in multiple locations, but only one location lists the happening of 'something', then one cannot conclude "X" as THE cause for 'something'.

One cannot definitively disprove it either, mind you. Which is why further study and research would be needed to find out the whole story.

Which is why I originally said "Will be interesting to see what shakes out as this is studied more."

OK, I'll repeat again for you since you've seemed to be struggling lately, and try to summarize the portion you think you take issue with. Our ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan is the same. Iraq reports spike in birth defects, blame is going on us. Afghanistan has no similar report I am aware of. With the known information, it cannot be concluded (or disproven) that our weaponry is the cause. Not right now at least. Right now it is an opinion.

That is not an attempt to dismiss or discredit, that is how science works to find answers. Remember (since you brought up sides) how much your side trusts that.

Oh, and birth defects in Alabama and the US are indeed rising, and any rise is an "alarming rate". But that's another discussion that would get into how we handle and grow foods, steroids, chemicals, etc. I don't know a great deal on that, but actually Gayle does know quite a bit on that topic and what is "good" or "bad" food if you are truly interested.

Sack
</div></div>




.well, from what I've seen since Hondo invited me over it seems to be the word of every day.


</div></div>

You lying,creepy POS. I wouldn't invite you anywhere.
You get some kind of perverse entertainment out of stalking me,
that's all.
As slimy as I find dub, you and punter and slide rule are the biggest creeps I've ever encountered on the forums.
I've tried to find some good in you guys but I can see no redeeming qualities, none.
You slither from forum to forum spreading hate.

I hope I haven't offended you.
I was just stating how I feel about you.
Have a wonderful day. </div></div>

And there you are claiming to be a victim again.

LWW

LWW
03-16-2010, 08:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you ever post anything that is actually on topic?????????

Steve </div></div>

Surely that was a rhetorical question.

LWW

LWW
03-16-2010, 09:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You better watch it, I'd hate for you to get "gang raped" again.

</div></div>

Please don't ask him about his close encounter experience ... he gets riled.

LWW
03-16-2010, 09:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was raised to be an honest, decent man, and I think most
of the posters on here would agree with that.</div></div>

So was Josef Stalin.

LWW

LWW
03-16-2010, 09:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugotda7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I guess the teenagers I saw over in Iraq a few years back with six fingers and toes are our fault too? Maybe we zapped them with our little known weapon - sharks with laser beams on their heads.</div></div>

You know you weren't supposed to mention that.

One more transgression and I shall be forced to take back your secret decoder ring.

LWW

Gayle in MD
03-16-2010, 11:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, only thing I know about baseball, I larned in "A League of Their Own". Also,I get my cookies from Girl Scouts...hmmm, that doesn't quite sound right....
As to trying to "pick on you"...I'd be over matched, as I am with most of you sterling right wing chaps over here.
Your post read one way to me, and I both commented and explained why in a subsequent reply. As lww and steve have claimed, we are intellectually inferior to the Republicans, so...
Since I did not know you were privy to insider's info re: both wars, I made the assumption that you had rushed to judgment, and it turned out that I were da one what done that.
I may not have your insight, but if there is a recent sharp increase in the number of birth defects in a particular area, I would be considering any recent "elements" that have been added to the equation.....
The movie and the true story it is based on, about chemical spills into the town's water....that proved to be the root cause of birth defects there....that name escapes me...but that came to mind when this topic came up.
But as you say, since it isn't also happening in Afghanistan....it must be sumthin else.....the "will of Allah', maybe </div></div>

<span style="color: #000066">It is truly absurd for anyone to state that it isn't also happening in Afghanistan!

First of all, how would we know if it is, or isn't? The My Lai Massacre, fopr example, wasn't reported by the army, we wouldn't have known anything about it if one Captain,Ron Ridenhour, an army helicopter gunner, hadn't written letters to the Pentagon, the White House, and the Congress, the army had been told about it, by a helicopter pilot, Captain Hugh C. Thompson, an army helicopter pilot who had managed to save a few of the villagers, and they did nothing! three hundred to five hundred innocent people, old men, women and babies, murdered! Estimates that thirty soldiers were involved.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After a four-month army investigation that included listening to 398 witnesses and collecting thousands of pages of testimony, charges were initially brought against 30 of the participants; that number was subsequently reduced to 13. Nine enlisted men and four officers faced charges ranging from murder to dereliction of duty for covering up the incident.

In November 1969 Seymour Hersh's newspaper story about the events of My Lai and subsequent follow-up reports shocked and horrified people around the world. The stories ignited waves of controversy over U.S. presence in Vietnam and increased pressure to bring an end to the war.

In 1971 five members of Charlie Company including Captain Medina and Lt. Calley were subjected to courts-martial. Captain Medina was represented by prominent defense attorney f. lee bailey and was acquitted of all charges. Lt. Calley was the only soldier convicted. He was found guilty of the premeditated murder of more than 20 Vietnamese civilians and sentenced to life imprisonment. His sentence was later reduced to 10 years and he was paroled in September 1975.

</div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Is there anyone stupid enough to think the Afghani tribesmen would be twittering us about it if it was happening? </span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

wolfdancer
03-16-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm glad to see that someone else questions the findings of the "learned panel" here. You'll probably get the same reply that I did.. you should read about the war, or talk to an Afghani before you dare try to infer that maybe the introduction of war related, chemicals,even diesel and gasoline spills getting into the drinking water, or tillable soils....has anything to do with this.

sack316
03-16-2010, 12:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Afghanistan has no similar report <u>I am aware of</u>. <u>With the known information</u>, it cannot be concluded (or disproven) that our weaponry is the cause. <u>Not right now at least.</u></div></div>

Y'all have really got to learn how to read and comprehend sometime. it would save a shitload of time and trouble on this board.

Sack

wolfdancer
03-16-2010, 12:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The solution is really simple there, if I or anyone says anything you believe to be untrue... look it up, and disprove it rather than just chiming in to disagree. That way, when you disagree, it has some merit rather than just appearing as a rant. </div></div>
WTF....I didn't exactly see where you made your case, Mr. Darrow..I guess I probably missed the paragraph, with your irrefutable evidence...or maybe you forgot to include it.
Such being the case....I have every ******* right to disagree with your statement, as you have putting it out there...

The defense rests....

pooltchr
03-16-2010, 12:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is there anyone stupid enough to think the Afghani tribesmen would be twittering us about it if it was happening? [/color] /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

It happens every day! Oh, wait...that's not quite accurate. The forum isn't Twitter, and I can't comment with factual knowledge on what kind of tribsman Woldie is.

And for the record, the term is "Tweeting" not "Twittering".

Steve

sack316
03-16-2010, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The solution is really simple there, if I or anyone says anything you believe to be untrue... look it up, and disprove it rather than just chiming in to disagree. That way, when you disagree, it has some merit rather than just appearing as a rant. </div></div>
WTF....I didn't exactly see where you made your case, Mr. Darrow..I guess I probably missed the paragraph, with your irrefutable evidence...or maybe you forgot to include it.
Such being the case....I have every ******* right to disagree with your statement, as you have putting it out there...

The defense rests.... </div></div>

Well cookie sorry if ya didn't get it. And AGAIN, I never said "this is right" or "this is wrong". Again proving a serious lack of reading comprehension. I'm sorry, I should be more patient with that.

But I at least provided some kind of information, and some basis for my opinion.

Indeed, the defense is correct in its assertion that it has the right to disagree.

So, then since you seem to want this one so bad... and are speaking about irrefutable evidence (to something I never claimed "was" or "was not") how bout you go ahead and sack up a little and show me your irrefutable evidence that the original article claims ARE the case. And then I will gladly bow down and STFU. And you know I will, just did it a bit ago in the ACORN thread with Gayle. So, just show me ol' friend.

Sack

wolfdancer
03-16-2010, 02:00 PM
Hey, you win !!!
I was wrong....the abnormal rise in the number of abnormal births, must just be a normal anomaly. It can't have any connection to the war as the exact same conditions prevail in Afghanistan.
1000 rep points awarded...go to azb to claim your prize.....

sack316
03-16-2010, 03:36 PM
Not what I wanted either.

If you will recall, my opinion was basically the same as yours. Something is up, and it needs to be studied and found out. I simply don't want to jump to the conclusion and say "it is definitely this" when it's not necessarily that (or that alone as is being claimed).

That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course we could just give in, say "yeah y'all are right... we are the sole reason for poisoning you guys" and pay reparations for the next few generations on top of everything else the damned thing is costing, and going to cost.

I'd prefer finding out for sure before any of that, personally.

Sack

wolfdancer
03-16-2010, 05:12 PM
I rechecked the thread to see what brought about this tirade of yours....and damnation, if it wasn't there in my first comment, to wit: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it merits looking into. </div></div>
I can readily see why you would find that offensive and claim that I didn't know how to read.

wolfdancer
03-16-2010, 06:06 PM
Say, that would have been a good question for "Family Feud"
"Survey says..."
#1... the truth

eg8r
03-16-2010, 06:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is truly absurd for anyone to state that it isn't also happening in Afghanistan!

First of all, how would we know if it is, or isn't?</div></div>So even if you don't know something is happening you will still just believe it is? Better yet, you probably would then tell us it is fact if qtip quoted an opinion piece about the same subject?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
03-17-2010, 01:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, only thing I know about baseball, I larned in "A League of Their Own".</div></div>

You know a great deal about the great game, actually. I've always respected and enjoyed our baseball chats /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif but funny comment anyway.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to trying to "pick on you"...I'd be over matched, as I am with most of you sterling right wing chaps over here.</div></div>

I didn't so much mean picking "on" as picking "with"... or ribbing, or disagreeing for the sake of disagreement perhaps. At least that is what I have been hoping, because the alternative would really make me rethink your intellect (which I do have a high opinion of usually)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your post read one way to me, and I both commented and explained why in a subsequent reply.</div></div>

Just as I responded and explained to you as well, pointing out that our opinion was exactly the same even!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I did not know you were privy to insider's info re: both wars, I made the assumption that you had rushed to judgment, and it turned out that I were da one what done that.</div></div>

Well thanks for saying that last part. The solution is really simple there, if I or anyone says anything you believe to be untrue... look it up, and disprove it rather than just chiming in to disagree. That way, when you disagree, it has some merit rather than just appearing as a rant. And FWIW, I am not privy to any insider info that others are left in the dark on in this subject. I am only privy to common knowledge, public knowledge, and several conversations with soldiers. A chat with a guy/gal in uniform and a google search is not outside of your own abilities.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may not have your insight, but if there is a recent sharp increase in the number of birth defects in a particular area, I would be considering any recent "elements" that have been added to the equation.....</div></div>

Yes, exactly! And you're almost there! It is worth looking into, of course! But given the recent "element" that is being blamed in Iraq, one must find it odd that the same "element" has not to this point created a parallel result somewhere else said "element" is. That does not mean "element" is not the cause, it only means there may be other causes too.

Maybe it'll help to know why that is important. There is a huge problem in Iraq, that needs a solution. Right now blame seems to be placed on US ammo. But, given we have a similar environment to compare it to, with different results, it's also possible that there are different and/or other factors causing the problem. So if, say Iraq is treated to fix a problem caused by US ammo, but it turns out that other factors were the cause, then those "solutions" will not fix anything, and the problem will persist.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The movie and the true story it is based on, about chemical spills into the town's water....that proved to be the root cause of birth defects there....that name escapes me...but that came to mind when this topic came up.
But as you say, since it isn't also happening in Afghanistan....it must be sumthin else.....the "will of Allah', maybe </div></div>

Again, please read and take your time. I NEVER said it MUST be something else. Go read every post here, and you will find I said no such thing.

Sack </div></div>

REgardless of whether it's true or not, we destroyed their country, which was already pretty degraded from our bombs over the years. Their infrastructure was already in shambles, IIRC, but that wasn't enough, we had to go in and occupy, trying to jam Democracy down their throats.

Here's what I heard from many soldiers, that they signed up to go get bin Laden and al Qaeda, and wanted to know WTF they were even IN Iraq, and couldn't get out, btw!

The most damaging foreign policy decision in our history.

War is dumb.

G.

Gayle in MD
03-17-2010, 01:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is truly absurd for anyone to state that it isn't also happening in Afghanistan!

First of all, how would we know if it is, or isn't?</div></div>So even if you don't know something is happening you will still just believe it is? Better yet, you probably would then tell us it is fact if qtip quoted an opinion piece about the same subject?

eg8r </div></div>

Ed,
why can't you read what is written, without changing it around to suit your need for petty insinuations and insults?


Keep it up, and you'll soon be back on ignore...if you can't discuss the subject, then just STFU. You work at making everything personal, just like the rest of your klan. That is a game of immaturity, and lack of sufficient information for debate.
G.

pooltchr
03-17-2010, 07:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Here's what I heard from many soldiers, that they signed up to go get bin Laden and al Qaeda, and wanted to know WTF they were even IN Iraq, and couldn't get out, btw!

The most damaging foreign policy decision in our history.

War is dumb.

G. </div></div>

Why don't you ask your president why we are still there? Why don't you ask him why we haven't pulled out all of our troops. He's had over a year to work on it. Oh, wait. He's been too busy with his healthcare package to worry about anything else!!!

Steve

ugotda7
03-17-2010, 11:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yep, I admit you bring out the worst in me.
I applaud you for serving your country, but
that's about the only good I see in you.

You're not the first loser to serve in the military.

You're like a micro-cosm of everything I hate about
the neo-cons.
Slimy, devious, twisting, jeering, sneering, lying,
hateful, arrogant, did I mention slimy? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

But it appears there are many like you on these forums
and, I imagine, in America.

I was raised to be an honest, decent man, and I think most
of the posters on here would agree with that.
You can twist my words, and, I admit I have over-reacted out of anger at times and said things I regret, but I'm not like you and your klan, thank God.

I could answer every one of your accusations of lies but what would be the point?
You know the truth. That's not your point in attacking me.

Flame away, ugo. You're on ignore from now on. </div></div>


Oh no!!!!! I'm on ignore!!!!! Please don't!!!!! I don't know how I'll be able to go on!!!!! Goodbye cruel world!!!!! - wait, that's your line, sorry.

Blah, blah, blah, whatever, like you're really going to ignore me, just like you were going to on AZ, just like you weren't going to reply to me here, just like you were only back here briefly (can you define that for us?), and so on.

You're nothing but the punch line to a joke, and a bad joke at that - for example: why do chicken coops in WV have two doors.....because if they had four doors they'd be chicken sedans. That's you Hondo - you're a chicken sedan.