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bradb
03-17-2010, 07:18 PM
Fig 1. Your're stripes, you have 3 balls left and its your shot.

You could pot the 15 and come off the top rail with side spin and try to break out your 10 ball... but thats iffy, you will need a lot of spin and if you miss the 15 you've just broke out the 8 for your opponent. Or you could pot the 15 and try and bank the 10ball... but why do either?....

Its amazing how many times I've seen even experienced players try the break out or bank when a simple safety is practically a sure win.

Fig 2. Declare a "No call" and pot the 15 with the Qball rolling to the top rail. Your opponent is left with a hopeless situation, now he must break out the 8 with no shot and leave you with two easy balls for position to win the game. Brad

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Fig1.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/fig2.jpg

Sid_Vicious
03-17-2010, 07:44 PM
Call me an AH, but that was the instant quicksand I saw automatically. 8B is a chess game, Checkmate!

bradb
03-17-2010, 08:02 PM
For old hands its a no brainer.

Madmax1100
03-18-2010, 06:51 AM
It might have been a no brainer to most, but not to me. It's posts' like this that will improve my 8 ball play; being a novice as I am. Thanks Brad

Bambu
03-18-2010, 07:36 AM
Interesting, never heard of a "no call." Is that the 1 ball hanging in the pocket, or is that the 9?

bradb
03-18-2010, 09:19 AM
Thats the 9 ball.

From Fig 2. The 8ball shooter does have some chance, he could shoot the 9ball in and give stripes ball in hand. Of course stripes would then hook him behind the 10ball. Then he would have to bank/kick the 8ball and hope that somehow he could leave it safe.

JJFSTAR
03-18-2010, 11:37 AM
I love players that do this kind of safe and shoot down one of their few remaining OB’s if I have 1 ball or the 8; if you are playing that incidentally pocked balls come up then the 15 returns to the table after the safety and I shoot his 9ball; it comes up behind it and now he has 3 balls on the table all with no pocket for. If you are playing all pocketed balls stay down I also pocket the 9 and give him BIH.

He has three choices. Take the bank and either try and stun it into position for the 8 or another safe pushing the 8 closer to the side pocket or trying to shoot the 10 hard enough to push the 8ball out and leave the CB behind the 10.

But if he leaves me a look on that 8ball in his attempt to hit it with some force in an attempt to drive it far enough away from the 8 to leave himself a shot, well I might have a shot also. The best possible scenario for him is frozen to the 10 so I can’t jump it however I still have the kick.

Granted the odds are in stripes favor no matter how you look at it. However you are still turning hopeless into giving him a shot at it. Taking one of your balls off the table when your opponent has only one left and you don’t have the run is usually a bad idea. This instance included IMHO.

So does one try the break or the safe? I would most often try the safe. I would either miss the bank cross-corner or soft shot the 15 toward the corner pocket and duck it up. But if you think that

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
now he must break out the 8 with no shot and leave you with two easy balls for position to win the game.
</div></div>

Uh uh; UNDER NO CURCUMSTANCES AM I GOING TO BREAK OUT THAT 8 WITH YOU HAVING A DUCK WITH A 3 BALL OUT AND A CLEAR TABLE. All in all most of these guys who shoot down one of their few remaining balls and call a safe when the 8 is tied up with one or 2 of their own balls are thinking backwards. Most of them think that balls off the table in that circumstance is to their advantage. I have a few great stories about some of these guys that had me toasted and I have jumped or kicked to victory.

Bambu
03-18-2010, 11:46 AM
Thanks Brad. Aside from the apa, I havent seen any rule sets where if you are up to it....you dont have to hit the 8 ball. Just a different POV here, but when I look at this table I see the soft tap on the 10, short rail first.

bradb
03-18-2010, 01:30 PM
JJFSTAR, I don't know your local rules but that 15 ball stays down in any league play I've ever played in.

I think most average players who are presented with the shot in fig 2 would boot out the 8ball and hope to tie something up... its only a natural, true some experienced players would shoot in the 9 and give ball in hand.

But thats only prolonging the problem, the chances of winning from that position are slim. I LOVE those odds.

PS, I not only would hook you I would lay that Qball snug in the 10 crease and you would need 2 rails to hit it... 2 more misses and you lose.

Pask
03-18-2010, 01:43 PM
Yes, in 8-ball (and other call-shot games I presume) you can call 'safety' and pocket one of your balls, and then give hand to the opponent, for safety reasons. Many players in France ignore that rule which is very important to my mind. It is also in BCA's world standard rules as far as I can remember.

Very intersting post Brad by the way.

bradb
03-18-2010, 01:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Brad. Aside from the apa, I havent seen any rule sets where if you are up to it....you dont have to hit the 8 ball. Just a different POV here, but when I look at this table I see the soft tap on the 10, short rail first. </div></div>

Yes, you are right Bambu, you don't have to hit the 8ball.

As mentioned above though I think a lot of players would knock out the 8 and hope you don't run out, but shooting the 9 and giving ball in hand is another option for 8ball... but 8ball is still in trouble.

You mentioned rolling up behind the 10, that is another option but would require a more difficult attempt at a hook than ball in hand. You could also do a "no call" on the 9 after shooting the 15 but I like leaving the 9 on the table, its a good insurance ball should 8 get safe. Of course in pool its not over until the winning ball drops, this is just a scenario that gives stripes the upper hand and a good chance to win.

Bambu
03-19-2010, 07:01 AM
Thanks, thats something I never would have considered. It's always good to know as many rule sets as possible.

JJFSTAR
03-19-2010, 10:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But thats only prolonging the problem, the chances of winning from that position are slim. I LOVE those odds.

PS, I not only would hook you I would lay that Qball snug in the 10 crease and you would need 2 rails to hit it... 2 more misses and you lose.
</div></div>

First off we may be dealing with a disparity in the rules; I know of no 3 foul rule in 8ball; maybe in Canada there is. If so I would encourage you to email the league and implore them to abolish that rule because no where else will that be true. Here (in the USA) if both players commit 3 fouls (6 fouls in total) consecutively the game can be called a draw and replayed if need be. In fact the world standardized rules in 8ball specifically states that 3 consecutive fouls by one player IS NOT a loss of game. Second is when I am at such a disadvantage prolonging the problem/game is exactly what I want to do.

That said I think you may be missing the point of my basic premise. A great number of players will play a safe like this; pot a ball that can be very useful for a break or to play another safe off of and call a safe, then pat themselves on the back for making a great decision. That seems to me what you are doing here and if there is a 3 foul rule, yes it is not such a bad decision but I would check with the league and ask if that is actually true.

My basic premise is that this is a strategically poor decision on a very basic level. You are potting a ball that you could use to break the 8 or play another safe off of if he is bold enough to pot your 9. And most often this decision stems from a lack of understanding of how the game is played well, it stems from the thought process that says “my balls off the table is to my advantage” and this is simply not true.

One of the oldest hustles in the book works against people who think like this; the hustler says “I will give you 3 balls off the table!” little does the average pool player know that he is giving himself an advantage over you not giving you an advantage. Furthermore it is especially false if your opponent has 1 ball on the table or just the 8.

Good pool strategy is good for everyone not just “the good players”. I wouldn’t make a strategic error and count on my opponent to make a worse one. Good 8ball strategy IMHO is not to pot balls that you could use for a run or duck up to cinch breakouts. Now it is true that if you have 7 balls on the table and he has 1 or just the 8 that a couple of “sink & safes” are probably in order just so you don’t have a lot of work to do for your run and he might just solve your problem ball for you in the interim.

bradb
03-19-2010, 11:33 AM
JJSTAR, I underestand your premise, I think you misunderstood mine.

First of all I left the 9 up as my position ball leaving it as an easy ball for continuation after the safety for players at the level of typical 8ball league play. This excersize is not an example for pros. I've watched a lot of 8ball matches and almost everytime players would either go for the breakout or run off their two easy balls then shoot the 10 ball out hoping to get safe. This is a reminder to them to play a "no call", a very valuable ploy that's over looked in league play.

I'm very aware of the fact that less balls on the table can be a disadvantage...Please!... lets drop that.

So lets get to your suggestion assuming both players are at your level of play...If I understand you, you are saying the only difference is to leave the 15 up also... But 8ball can play that game all day long.

If I leave the 15 in the middle of the table for a break out, then 8ball pots the 15 some where and we're right back to where we started. You do agree that stripes can keep knocking the 15 around the table and 8ball can keep knocking the ball away to a postion that favors him or pot it.

When I said I would hook you solid and probably force you to miss 2 more times, I was refering to the fact that you and I are playing.... and thats a hypothetical ball game.

The bottom line is that for most amateur play the strategy as shown is the best chance of winning. I would put my money on a win from there everytime.

Brad

TheSongOfTime
03-20-2010, 07:29 AM
I was looking for places that had tips on improving my game, this looks like a great place for that. My firt post would be my opinion on this shot. I would bank the 15 with a thin cut, to bring my 15 closer to the tie up, while sending my cue ball down the rail towards the 9 ball, leaving him an open long shot on the hopeless 8 ball. Any shot that person takes is going to put me in total control of my runout, unless they are good enough to skim the 8 and put the cueball behind the 15 that I broght closer to the problem. But if they did that, I would do another safety.

Sid_Vicious
03-20-2010, 03:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSongOfTime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was looking for places that had tips on improving my game, this looks like a great place for that. My firt post would be my opinion on this shot. I would bank the 15 with a thin cut, to bring my 15 closer to the tie up, while sending my cue ball down the rail towards the 9 ball, leaving him an open long shot on the hopeless 8 ball. Any shot that person takes is going to put me in total control of my runout, unless they are good enough to skim the 8 and put the cueball behind the 15 that I broght closer to the problem. But if they did that, I would do another safety. </div></div>

" I would bank the 15 with a thin cut, to bring my 15 closer to the tie up, while sending my cue ball down the rail towards the 9 ball"

The problem I see with that move is that the 8B would have a chance to be made off of a carom with the CB landing down table. The first plan pretty much nails down a total lack of Hail Mary shots on the 8. Your idea is great if the 15 does indeed get in the mix over by the 8, but that's not a given. jm2c sid

JJFSTAR
03-21-2010, 07:54 AM
http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/safety.htm This should help explain. BTW dont bother to point out that he says the word "consider". He is saying that to cover himself when your opponent has a couple of balls on the table not just one or just the 8ball. If you point this out YOU need to read this more carefully not me.

I am not trying to argue I am trying to help. Brad its not that I misunderstand you in fact I see the mistake outlined in fig2 all the time. The player calls safe and pots one of his few remaining balls and takes away the biggest advantage he has and that is to duck up a ball for an easy safety or a cinched break. Stripes should win here well over 90% of the time even among players who take 5 or 6 innings apiece to complete a game.

No offense but if you understand that taking off your balls late in the game when you have only a few balls left and your opponent has only one ball or just the 8 on the table is to your disadvantage; why put up a diagram that suggests potting a ball that obviously can be put into a position for another safety or a cinched break?

Also why would you say that after I foul that 2 more misses and I loose if you are not talking about a 3 foul rule? I also don’t think you read my post carefully because I don’t think you would say this

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This excersize is not an example for pros…. ….The bottom line is that for most amateur play the strategy as shown is the best chance of winning. I would put my money on a win from there everytime.
</div></div>

After I said this

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good pool strategy is good for everyone not just “the good players”. I wouldn’t make a strategic error and count on my opponent to make a worse one. Good 8ball strategy IMHO is not to pot balls that you could use for a run or duck up to cinch breakouts.
</div></div>

I have won plenty of games that my opponent has put in the win column just because he doesn’t understand how much of an advantage it is to put one of his balls close to his problem ball or duck it up (put it in the jaws of a pocket) and instead he just opts to pot it; and I say “thanks”. I have played foul after foul against 8 ball in just this kind of situation and nudged my 8 close to the side or corner (most often the corner; tucking this 10 and not leaving a shot is a little tougher for a kick in the side). Or he has realized my plan and kicks my 8 out so I can kick at or he leaves me a tiny sliver of it. Or the worst of all the scenarios is that he realizes the games not over; gets nervous and fouls.

Lastly as I said there is no way to say that 8ball here has anything but a slim chance of winning, that’s not what I am saying and don’t try to make it what I am saying. What I am saying is that potting this 15 lacks foresight. When you have such an advantage why give some of that advantage up? I always want to take full advantage of my big advantage.

The player who pots this 15 needs to play some one-pocket; it will teach you very quickly that balls on the table most of the time need to be protected to maintain a big advantage not taken off at first opportunity. At least until the game is really over and/or you have successfully outmaneuvered your opponent. So my bottom line is that if you like potting this 15 I love it! I always love an opportunity to win when I have practically none.

bradb
03-21-2010, 11:25 AM
JJFSTAR, yes I would play the shots in your example the exact same way as shown, but thats a complete different scenario then my situation.... not even close.

In my diagram 8ball is trapped and needs "YOU" to break him out. I left my 9ball up forcing him to shoot it giving me a good chance to win with ball in hand! There is no other reason to leave extra balls on the table?

In this case it might even be more advantagious for 8ball to go ahead and bump the 8 out... roll down table and hope that the 8ball blocks the 10 ball leaving stripes a narrow alley for shape after potting the 9. Those odds are about the same as kicking the 8ball safe.

You mention you would have a sure win with 15 out, I totally disagree!!! you do not have a lock up, you will have to execute a break out and hope it rolls favorably, there is no sure bet here. I'll take the ball in hand hook.

I agree whole heartedly that more balls gives you more options for escape as noted but we should measure each situation for its own merits.

My scenario is not a error but a good plan to win. We should not confuse students of the game with blanket rules that don't allways apply.

Respectfully, Brad

Stretch
03-21-2010, 05:30 PM
I like what JJF had to say. i was taught to never waste a ball on a call safe. Why? because you can achieve the same goal (safe leave) And devolope and even stronger out pattern at the same time. It's those little subtelties that pay off. Nice example thow, you see these endings a lot of times so knowing the proper ways to handle them is a great tip. St.

Chilled
03-22-2010, 12:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJFSTAR, I don't know your local rules but that 15 ball stays down in any league play I've ever played in.

I think most average players who are presented with the shot in fig 2 would boot out the 8ball and hope to tie something up... its only a natural, true some experienced players would shoot in the 9 and give ball in hand.

But thats only prolonging the problem, the chances of winning from that position are slim. I LOVE those odds.

PS, I not only would hook you I would lay that Qball snug in the 10 crease and you would need 2 rails to hit it... 2 more misses and you lose.
</div></div>

Sorry to join in late. Interesting thread. Three successive fouls doesn't normally mean loss of frame in 8 ball. He will simply nudge the 10 and give you ball in hand again. You might well, a few shots after that, end up invoking the 8 ball "stalemate/restart the frame" rule.

Chilled
03-22-2010, 12:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJSTAR, I underestand your premise, I think you misunderstood mine.

First of all I left the 9 up as my position ball leaving it as an easy ball for continuation after the safety for players at the level of typical 8ball league play. This excersize is not an example for pros. I've watched a lot of 8ball matches and almost everytime players would either go for the breakout or run off their two easy balls then shoot the 10 ball out hoping to get safe. This is a reminder to them to play a "no call", a very valuable ploy that's over looked in league play.

I'm very aware of the fact that less balls on the table can be a disadvantage...Please!... lets drop that.

So lets get to your suggestion assuming both players are at your level of play...If I understand you, you are saying the only difference is to leave the 15 up also... But 8ball can play that game all day long.

<u> If I leave the 15 in the middle of the table for a break out, then 8ball pots the 15 some where and we're right back to where we started.</u> You do agree that stripes can keep knocking the 15 around the table and 8ball can keep knocking the ball away to a postion that favors him or pot it.

When I said I would hook you solid and probably force you to miss 2 more times, I was refering to the fact that you and I are playing.... and thats a hypothetical ball game.

The bottom line is that for most amateur play the strategy as shown is the best chance of winning. I would put my money on a win from there everytime.

Brad</div></div>

If 8ball pots the 15 somewhere we're not right back where we started at all because stripes now has first ball in hand instead of mr 8ball. With ball in hand and stripes I'm nudging that 10 out slightly into a position where it pots, at the same time leaving my opponent full ball hooked on the 8 which might even at that point now be frozen if my nudge goes well. My opponent can have a go at the low percentage full table kick to pot the 8 in the bottom right pocket or he can play a slow safety kick in the opposite direction. He could alternatively deliberately nudge my 10 back where it was and give me ball in hand again. Two more repeats of that and I'm thinking of asking the ref for a stalemate and restart.

Whichever way he chooses to go after my first nudge with the ball in hand the percentage chance of me winning is just as good, if not better, than after the opening gambit you suggested initially.

Of course like all these hypotheticals the level of ability of the respective players is crucial to calculation of percentages and nobody can be too adamant about what is best. Good thread.

bradb
03-22-2010, 09:44 AM
Chilled, what I was referring to when I said "back where we started" (I could have phrased that better,) was that leaving the 15 ball out would not change the situation too much, if 8ball pots the 9ball then stripes could then get his hook with 15 still on the table near the lower corner pocket, but 8ball could knock that in or bank it. Stripes must leave the 15 from being potted after the hook. This is a lot of extra ball play to try and secure the same end... why not just get to the hook right away? JJSTAR mentioned he could maneuver the 15 to a possible break out, but I contend that its best to break it out from a hook position, a break out is'nt always a gaurantee that you will have shape after the hit.

The hook is a deadly one in the situation shown and would require 2 rails jacked up over a ball.

Yes JJFSTASRs idea of leaving the 15 out gives stripes another option should 8ball get off a lucky kick, but then again stripes must still execute the run, he could be blocked by the 10 theres no guarantee here, anything could happen. But both chances of 8ball winning are equally slim.

After going back and reading my scenario copy in fig 2, I should have mentioned the option of the 8ball potting the 9ball, then describe the hook, my description was a bit misleading.

Brad

JJFSTAR
03-22-2010, 12:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJFSTAR, yes I would play the shots in your example the exact same way as shown, but thats a complete different scenario then my situation.... not even close.
</div></div>
If I have given a possible continuation of the game with all of the balls in the exact position that is laid out in your diagram how can it possibly be a different situation?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my diagram 8ball is trapped and needs "YOU" to break him out.
</div></div>
Exactly, and I am not going to do that for him until I am at the most advantageous position that I can gain.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I left my 9ball up forcing him to shoot it giving me a good chance to win with ball in hand!
</div></div>
But I would rather have ball in hand with more than just the tied up 10 ball. If he has to contend with the 15 as a possible break shot or a ducked up 15 and the ducked 9 he has 2 problems to deal with. If he does the deliberate foul and pockets my 9 I have a huge advantage, I would not try to contest that. But I don’t have to settle for that being my only advantage ducking up the 15 or putting it close to the tied up 8 & 10 gives me a bigger one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There is no other reason to leave extra balls on the table?
</div></div>
There is; I would rather have 1 duck than none and 2 ducks than 1, that way if he shoots one of my ducks giving me BIH I still have a duck that I can break from or play another safe off of or play position off of. I would not let him reduce my mobility & limit my options by letting him put my 9 ball in his crosshairs. He would have to think twice about it if my 15 were still on the table down anywhere on the half of the table where the 8 & 10 are.

If he shoots the 9 down he has to deal with the possibility of me making a good break off the 15 and if he shoots down the 15 he has to contend with me starting the nudging process of the 10 with my ducked 9 sitting there. That is gloomier for a few reasons. The first is that if I successfully send the 8 ball down to the other end of the table and park my CB behind the 10 and he fouls I then still have the 9 ball down there for position on the 8 rather than having to draw back for it or come around a rail 2 or 3 off the 10. Another is that if by some chance I make a big error in my little tap-tap continuation of the game and give him a look at that 8ball or worse he either has to bank it or thin cut it to the opposite corner rather than being able to just shoot it down in the corner where my 9 ball used to be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In this case it might even be more advantagious for 8ball to go ahead and bump the 8 out... roll down table and hope that the 8ball blocks the 10 ball leaving stripes a narrow alley for shape after potting the 9. Those odds are about the same as kicking the 8ball safe.
</div></div>
Again definitely something I would not do and doubly bad if stripes is strategically savvy enough to leave the 15 on the table.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mention you would have a sure win with 15 out
</div></div>
I have never and would never say something so absurd. I have played competitive pool for too long and against too many great pool players to ever put those 2 words together. I defy you present a quote from me in this thread or at any time on this or any other forum where I have.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree whole heartedly that more balls gives you more options for escape as noted but we should measure each situation for its own merits.
</div></div>
I agree and we are analyzing this situation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My scenario is not a error but a good plan to win.
</div></div>
I agree that it is a good plan to win but not that it is not an error because it isn’t the best shot IMHO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We should not confuse students of the game with blanket rules that don't allways apply.
</div></div>
Because I have been teaching competitive pool for over 17 years I have more “blanket rules” than most executives have phone numbers in their rolodex. “Blanket rules” are not by any means ever meant to always apply to every situation. When giving one of my students the “rule of thumb dujour” I always will preface it by saying “now this of course isn’t always the best shot, idea or strategy but it is often very helpful; especially when you aren’t 100% sure of what to do”.

If you knew this particular “blanket rule” and fully understood the underlying reasoning behind it I don’t think you would suggest potting this 15. On the flip side there are blanket rules that I use that not everyone would agree with. I am fully aware that some of these “rules of thumb” that I use some top notch players wouldn’t even agree with just about 99.99% of them.
In conclusion as I said if you like shooting this 15 ball down I love it. Please go ahead and do it.

bradb
03-22-2010, 12:56 PM
JJFSTAR I have read your suggestions over and over trying to see your point of view, and I've set the balls up on my table and tried all the combinations suggested.

Your idea of leaving 15 near the bottom pocket set up an easy run ball should 8ball get off a lucky kick, but I was able to lay down such a good hook in every case that it did'nt make any difference, I was able to kick the 8ball only twice in 5 trys and both were sell outs. The 15 ball then became an added ball I had to pot.

In my haste to answer you sometimes I rushed my replies and made some mistakes, I will try and be more careful in the future.

I have another idea on finding the breakout ball in opening situations, maybe I should forward you a copy befor I post it as you can point out any errors and make suggestions.

Brad

Pacifist
03-22-2010, 03:44 PM
I read this post a few days ago and decided to set up the shot in fig 2 before posting a reply.

Let me start off by saying that I agree with the idea behind the shot. I think it would have been better to leave the 15 ball on the table in this instance. The reason I would leave the 15 ball on the table is because in the diagramed position in fig 2 the 8 ball can be banked into the same pocket you potted the 15 ball in. I made the 8 ball 7 out of ten times with that set up. leaving the 15 ball hanging in the pocket instead of potting it would have geatly reduced my odds maybe even made that shot impossible. I also tried banking the 8 ball two rails to leave it in front of the 10 ball. I was successful doing that 3 out of 10 tries. Not very good odds but still worth a try if i was on the 8 ball. Third I tried to bank the 8 ball across table and back while using follow and left hand english so I could pocket the 9 ball in the same stroke. This was the least successful of the shots. I could make the 9 ball often enough but I couldnt leave safe.

With all that said I think leaving the 15 ball on the table would have eliminated the shots I came up with. Im not posting this to criticize you brad. I loved your post because its true that too many players would try to run out at all costs from a position like this that can be won with much less effort. I just wanted to post what I learned from your example. I am now more prepared for safety plays like these because I practiced this position.

By the way where did you get the diagrams from? Is it a program? I would love to be able to use a program to store my drills and other ideas for future reference. If it is a program can you tell me where to get it?

bradb
03-22-2010, 04:53 PM
Thanks Pacifist.

If you look at the diagram carefully the 10ball is blocking the 8 from banking to the pocket, maybe I should have tucked it in there a bit more so that it's more obvious.

I have tried several options myself and as I explained to JJFSTAR my reasons for not leaving the 15 up in this case is the hook is sufficient enough to make it very difficult to kick the 8. But I would agree on his strategy if the kick on the 8 was easier. Of course this is based on the players ability to lay down the hook needed. maybe the extra ball is better for some players.

I had some success by tapping the 8 out and blocking the shot on the 10ball. Now stripes has to pocket the 9ball and hold for shape on the 10. After making the 10 he would have a tricky shot back down the rail on the 8. Or he could shoot the 10 with left hand side to come 2 rails and back up behind the 8. This is'nt that hard to do but in a tense game with everything on the line it can be missed.

I made the table diagrams myself in photo shop from a photo graph (I'm a graphic artist.) For the balls and sticks I found some on the net and brought them in and added shadow.

Many times I've seen players step up to the table and start potting balls all the way to last one and then wind up in the hole on a tied up ball. Next I would like to show a layout that is a run out with careful planning.