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bradb
03-23-2010, 12:21 PM
You’re stripes and you’ve just came to the table in a very crucial game. Your opponent just missed a run out but he managed to tie up your 11 with his 3. You’ve been waiting for an hour and this is the first chance you’ve had to pick up your cue, so understandably you’re are a little tense. Your gut instinct is to take the easy balls and start potting, but you know you best back off and start planning.

First of all its obvious the 15 over the side is perfect for your break out, you can be just about anywhere behind it and its an easy carom into the 11-3. But whats the best way to get down there?

Plan A. The 12 to the corner is easy... you can follow it, then shoot that 14 along the rail to get to those balls on the top rail and set up on the 15 break out. But wait! Remember last time you made a break out with only one ball left.... it rolled awkward and you lost that game!!! You need that 12ball as a possible escape. Ok, you could try the 9ball but it’s a thin cut. The 14ball is the only ball that keeps you on that end of the table…. but it’s a little tougher for shape then you would like.

Plan B. What about a safety? You could roll the 14 over the hole and leave solids with a tough kick shot that will break out your 11. But remember last time you let an opponent back to the table... he made the safety escape and got a luck sack hook back on you! NO. Go for the win!… you have an easy run out here.

Plan C. You will get aggressive and pot that 14 with a touch of inside top english!
Come across to the opposite rail and back for an easy shot on the 13.
Follow the 13 a bit and roll in the 10 along the rail.
Come out above the 9 and pot it to roll out about 1 or 2 feet up table.
Now you will have that easy carom off the 15 in the side to roll down and tap out the 11 with the 12 as your alternate position ball!

So you've worked out your plan.... now you are ready to get down on the 14 and execute it.

Later while you’re sitting on the plane on your way to Vegas you can savor this run out over and over while you sip your martini. Brad


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/pool-table-runout.jpg

Chilled
03-23-2010, 01:49 PM
Everybody in the room who wants to be drawn against the guy whose "first instinct is to take that easy 15" or the guy who thinks the 14 is a "tough start" shout "Aye!!!" right now.

Is there likely to be anyone at all on ccb who would admit to seriously considering starting with 15?......and what's the worst that could realistically happen with the alternative "tough" opening pot attempt at the 14? You'd be hard pressed NOT to either succeed in the pot or to leave him well hooked on the 3 if you failed to pot it.

What kind of players are you pitching this at Brad?.......LOL

bradb
03-23-2010, 02:11 PM
This is an example for all levels of play chilled, I can't just speak to one level. Thats why I kept the 15 medium easy. Keep in mind this is a crucial game.

PS... Read the whole thing!


Brad

Chilled
03-23-2010, 02:51 PM
I did read and understand it all Brad.

I was just giggling to myself a bit at the initial scenarios you painted of some players instinctively taking the 15 or of some players thinking of the opening 14 as being "tough" and wondering how many players would actually ever act or think that way in the first place.

It's not clear what you mean with your follow up comment that this why you made the position of the 15 "medium easy". If you are talking about "medium easy" for the opening pot option which you highlighted as being instinctive but unwise, it makes me wonder if there's something wrong with my screen display which makes it look like Stevie Wonder could pot the 15 with a broom handle (not that it would be wise even for him lol).

If on the other hand by that comment you are actually talking about "medium easy" in respect of it's position to be used later for a carom into the 3/11, I can see why you'd classify it as medium easy.

bradb
03-23-2010, 03:14 PM
When I first placed the 15 I thought it was a bit to tough so I moved it down the rail.

By tough I guess I mean a ball that can be missed. I know that when I'm in a big game I look for the least chance for making a mistake when I start and the 15 is the third easiest starting shot in the layout.

I'm going to change the copy a bit so its not so low level sounding. BB

Pacifist
03-23-2010, 03:41 PM
Chilled ive seen many of these players that find shots like the 14 tough and would gun down the 15 without a second thought. I used to play against them at bars when that was the only place with tables. Im very glad we have a poolhall now so I dont have to embarrass them all the time.

Chilled
03-23-2010, 04:44 PM
So have I......but the point was that it wouldn't be likely that there would be too many of them on here seeking out discussion threads about run out patterns lol.

DeadCrab
03-24-2010, 07:28 AM
I would use the 15 to break the 11-3 cluster.

First shoot the 12 with draw to get on the correct side of the 15.

Stun the 15 to send the CB to break the 11-3 cluster. If you are successful, then the layout will need to be reassessed. If you miss the cluster, there are still plenty of balls to shoot at, and you can stick your opponent with the cluster when you decide to do so.

JJFSTAR
03-24-2010, 09:40 AM
Another position to analyze; fantastic! This position is infinitely more complex than the last one. This comes down to a question of taste just how do you seal him off or do you try to finish him here. He has 1 ball on the table that is even worse than just the 8. There are about 1,000 possible continuations of the game. The outlook for solids is grim; stripes has a dozen options that are bad for solids and I cant even begin to tell you what a great pool player would do.

Seeing as this guy had you in the chair for an hour he’s good, real good. Do you have the ability to sit within complex positions and wait for your best opportunity to run or are you going to tense up and say “gotta get him now”. When I am in such positions I go through my rolodex and evaluate each ball. Given that I have lots of tournament experience this is done in less than 2 seconds. My thought process would go something like this;

11 is my problem 3 is his; do I want to try to force him to break it or break it myself? I have very few balls on that side of the table therefore only a couple of break options the 15 and the 12, the 15 being the very obvious choice. Running off all my balls on the opposite side of the table is easy but I shouldn’t do that because balls that need to be broken should be broken early in the run. I am a minimalist so I want to move the CB as little as possible to lessen the chance of positional error. The 13, 9 & 10 are all easy once you get on that end of the table and the 14 is the easiest lead ball to get to them from where my problem ball is.

The 12 ball is my best insurance against the very unlikely hook. The 10 ball I don’t like safeing off of because unless I do a half ball hit on either side the CB path and resting place are a little unpredictable and I certainly don’t want to bump balls around that are already pocketable. Usually it is a strategic mistake to not play the lay of the table when you when you can.

For many players this would not be the best shot and others would definitely disagree. And to that one I would say “ok there are too many options here to say what is exactly the best shot’ Even in your last diagram Brad there is a question of whether to duck up the 15 in the top corner or try to leave it on the opposite side of the table down by the short rail for a break on the 8 & 10.

So by process of elimination I come up with what I would do, for whatever that is worth:

1. I don’t want to shoot the 15 because that is my best break ball (as the table lays now)
2. I don’t want to shoot off the 12 because that is my best insurance against the unlikely hook and the closest ball to the 8 making it my most likely out ball other than the 11 (as the table lays now).
3. I don’t want to safe off the 10 because of the possibility of needlessly bumping balls around that are already pocketable and the unpredictability of the CB’s path and resting place.
4. I don’t want to shoot off the 14 because it is the best lead in ball to run the balls at the opposite side of the table where my problem ball is.
5. I don’t want to cut the 9 ball because I don’t want to move the CB around any more that I have to.

That’s it I am left with the 13 and here is my call “13 one rail strait back” with the intention of a stop shot. I like this call for a lot of reasons. It is a 2 way shot, I will just name a couple of pluses because naming all of them would take a couple of pages. If I make it is a nice position to be in to break the 11 early in my run while still leaving the 14 & 12 as possible continuations of my run after the break should I not get shape on the 11. It loosens up my position at the other end of the table making it easier to run and more options for position when I do get down there and run them.

If I don’t make it and hand the table back to my opponent I have still improved my position because now I have a duck in the corner blocking a possible pocket for his 3 and 8 should this game go south for me. I have another ball on that side of the table where my problem ball is and it also makes the trip from one side of the table to the other after I run the 14, 9 and 10 a little easier besides being another possible out ball before the 8. Finally you give him a wide angle for his kick attempt should he decide to let you “prove your run” instead of the “shoot the 15 down and leave the 3 and 11 there” route.

BTW great post Brad. I do very much look forward to what others on this board would do and why.

bradb
03-24-2010, 10:24 AM
Interesting post JJ. it really shows the different styles of play of many players.

What I was suggesting in my scenario was a league playoff match coming down to the final game to determnine the team to go to Vegas for the APA no handicap championship. I played in that league 1 year and I quit because I hated waiting for so long between games and you were'nt allowed to practice.

In the example stripes of course is safe if he did miss, but I always hate to allow any chance of giving the table back. I once had a guy buried with my ball over a hole for an easy win and he made a Hail Mary shot and stone dead froze me behind the 8ball. What I call a bad beat in pool./forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

I don't think I would have chosen to bank the 13 because banking is'nt my strength, I know I can run out with the 14, but we have different styles. We go with what we feel comfortable with. Incidently the table we play on are super fast the ball will come clear back up table on a miss. So you have to play pocket weight.

I ran out a game very similar to the example and i did'nt have to use anything but plain ball the whole run. Maybe thats why I'm not a great 9ball player, I don't like power english.

Yes, I'm looking forward to more posts also, theres nothing like an actual situation to show all the styles.

Incidently my team lost the big match, I broke and came up dry and my opponent ran out skunking me 10-0. Brad

Brad

bradb
03-24-2010, 10:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeadCrab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I would use the 15 to break the 11-3 cluster.

First shoot the 12 with draw to get on the correct side of the 15.

Stun the 15 to send the CB to break the 11-3 cluster. If you are successful, then the layout will need to be reassessed. If you miss the cluster, there are still plenty of balls to shoot at, and you can stick your opponent with the cluster when you decide to do so. </div></div>

That will get you to the 15 carom, but there's to much that can happen after that. Best to eliminate everything up table before the break out, then you have only 2 easy balls to pot at the 8ball end of the table.

Go for the run out with a complete game plan, leave as little to chance as possible.
- Brad

JJFSTAR
03-24-2010, 11:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I always hate to allow any chance of giving the table back. I once had a guy buried with my ball over a hole for an easy win and he made a Hail Mary shot and stone dead froze me behind the 8ball. What I call a bad beat in pool./forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif
</div></div>
Oh you are really lucky to have had that only happen to you once /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't think I would have chosen to bank the 13 because banking is'nt my strength, I know I can run out with the 14, but we have different styles. We go with what we feel comfortable with. (Incidently, the 9ft tables we play on are super fast, you have to shoot a bank almost pocket weight or it will come half way back up the table.
</div></div>
Fortunately banking is one of my strengths (thank goodness I have at least a couple) because I play bank pool, one-pocket and I teach pool. BTW we have Brunswick GC III’s with Simonis 760 pro cloth. They are fast, real fast. If the stop puts too much punch for a table it should be noted that a center ball shot comes off the short rail in almost the same position as the stop shot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I ran out a game very similar to the example and i did'nt have to use anything but plain ball the whole run. Maybe thats why I'm not a great 9ball player, I don't like power english. Yes, I'm looking forward to more posts also, theres nothing like an actual situation to show all the styles. Incidently my team lost the big match, I broke and came up dry and my opponent ran out skunking me 10-0. Brad
</div></div>

I like starting with the bank here. Starting with the 14 is good. Starting with the 12 and drawing back for the 15 break is also good, so is safeing off the 9, 10 or 13. As I said in my 1st post there are really too many options for good shots for stripes to really say what option is best. In this type of situation you have to go with what you are comfortable with as you said. I think probably the only common factor is that most good pool players would try to run out instead of safe.

I just have an affinity for 2 way shots. I have found that against some players they have a demoralizing effect like well executed jump or masse shots.

bradb
03-24-2010, 11:20 AM
JJ, I read your post and agree that with your stregth the bank is a good out.

But I think shooting the 12 right off is a mistake as I mentioned to Dead crab.

But you may be right, different strokes for different folks. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

JJFSTAR
03-24-2010, 12:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Best to eliminate everything up table before the break out, then you have only 2 easy balls to pot at the 8ball end of the table.

Go for the run out with a complete game plan, leave as little to chance as possible.
- Brad </div></div>

Holy molly here we go again. Brad, brother, fellow competition player; with all due respect you are thinking backwards again. And this is the kind of thinking that is very common and keeps some pretty good shot makers from reaching the leader boards. Deadcrabs suggestion is a good one. Shooting off all your balls up table and THEN breaking your cluster is a bad one. It is breaking one of the fundamental “blanket rules” of pool strategy in most widely played games.

Take care of your problem balls early in your run. Your balls up table are not a problem your 11 ball is. If you wait until the middle or the latter part of your run to deal with your problem balls you are probably doing something wrong. You can say that you know and understand that but it doesn’t seem that you are putting it into practice in competition. I have had students like that who tell me “yea, yea, yea” and they get up there and just ignore time tested basic pool strategy and just go with what looks best to them at the time and then tell me they were just “playing the balls that were in that situation” or some other nonsense reasoning. And when they loose I tell them that’s why they lost (that’s usually the result) and the times that they win it is really bad because now poor pool strategy has positive reinforcement.

If you, yes you start really watching the top players you will see that ALL OF THEM look at the table in a way that is very common in that they open up the table at first opportunity if they plan to run out; whether there are a few balls on the table or a lot of balls on the table.

It is particularly hard to tell in 9 ball because the average league player cant tell whether the top gun ran into that ball purposefully or not and well over 90% of the time the answer is “they did”. Please don’t take what I say the wrong way. I don’t want to insult any ones game. I spent the better part of a decade thinking I understood the game and doing some of the same stuff you are suggesting doing now. I strongly suggest that you change the perception of having a table full of balls as a negative; for it is not.

bradb
03-24-2010, 03:11 PM
JJ, Sorry for any misunderstanding, my comments to Dead crab pertain to this example only. I certainly would'nt advise that as a blanket rule.

I always break out my problem balls first but in this case I should'nt have to because of the easyness of the 11-3 spread off the 15.

Wth the 11-3 tap out, (I've been saying breakout, but its a tap out actually) the 11 rolls into the open and I now have the 12 and the 11 to continue to the 8.

In Dead crabs scenario I've lost my 12 escape and if I don't like the 11, I have only the 14 downtable to continue. What if the Qball gets awkward on the 3? Now the 14 could be difficult.

In summation, the bottom balls are along the rail away from the 8ball and are not good position balls for the 8 shape. In my example I have 2 balls near an open 8 for the win.

E-mails or posted comments can be easily misenterpreted, and many time s I wish I could rephrase something I've said. Maybe I should just put forward examples and study the comments with own strategy as just another idea.

I would be interested in other players take on this, I don't think i'm to far off base on this. But I consider your advise with much respect. -Brad

bradb
03-24-2010, 07:19 PM
I set up the layout and played 10 games. Five of the games went to plan!! I needed that 12 four times.

The other Five I did'nt get a good line up on the 13 and was to far up table to stay on the 9-10 so I gave solids a kick out. Solids kicked out the 3 and left an awkward leave, I managed to keep it safe for a win but that was close . The other hook solids fouled and it was an easy win.

The mentioned that the 11-3 tap out was easy... well not quite!! Once I ran too light and did'nt tap out the 11 enough. I still won but it was close also.

One game (to my embarasment) I lost. I hit the 11-3 a bit to hard and the 11 stuck to the 8ball. I broke it out instead of playing safe and scratched!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Brad