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hondo
05-15-2010, 08:12 AM
http://www.thefoxnation.com/dylan-ratiga...ans-willy-nilly (http://www.thefoxnation.com/dylan-ratigan/2010/05/13/nbc-news-host-us-military-dropping-predator-bombs-civilians-willy-nilly)

hondo
05-15-2010, 08:14 AM
http://article.wn.com/view/2010/01/03/Ba...Ftopstories.txt (http://article.wn.com/view/2010/01/03/Barack_Obama_calls_shots_on_Predator_Drone_strikes _in_Afghan/?template=afghandaily%2Ftopstories.txt)

hondo
05-15-2010, 08:16 AM
CREECH AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. — The Air Force this fall will deploy a new generation of pilotless airplane with the bombing power of an F-16 to help stop the stubborn Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.
The Reaper is an upgraded version of the Predator, which has become one of the military's most sought-after planes since it first appeared in Afghanistan in 2001. The Reaper can fly three times as fast as a Predator and carry eight times more weaponry, such as Hellfire missiles, the Air Force said.

The Reaper's greater range and speed make it better suited than the Predator to Afghanistan with its vast, rugged terrain. The Reaper will also be deployed to Iraq. Its speed and arms will let it track and kill moving targets able to elude a Predator, said Brig. Gen. James Poss, director of intelligence for Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base, Va.

Air Force officials cite the June 2006 killing of al-Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was tracked by a Predator but ultimately killed by bombs dropped by an F-16. The Reaper "is ideal for that type of target," said Lt. Col. Gregory Christ, director of staff at Creech.

Despite the Predator's success, field commanders wanted a faster, more lethal alternative, said Col. Charles Bartlett, leader of the Air Force's unmanned aircraft task force.

Such demand has prompted the Air Force to rush to train operators and crews. In 2003, the Air Force trained fewer than 40 Predator operators. In 2008, that will soar to 160. It has trained 10 Reaper operators this year, and expects to train 19 more in 2008.

The Reaper squadron will start small and has only four aircraft, said Maj. David Small, an Air Force spokesman. It will ultimately have 20 planes, he said.

Most Reapers, like Predators, are flown from bases in the United States, such as Creech, which is about an hour north of the Las Vegas strip.

The Reaper carries about the same payload as the F-16 but can stay aloft as much as eight times longer than the F-16, which must refuel about every two hours.

"You've got a lot of ammo circling overhead on call for short-notice strikes," said John Pike, director of the military think tank, Globalsecurity. "It seems like a good idea."

Demand for Predator flights has exploded. This year, Predator flight hours are expected to exceed 70,000 hours, more than triple the total in 2003.

Combat pilots say they miss the feel of flying but say remote-control aircraft are here to stay.

"This is the future," said Chad Miner, chief of weapons and tactics at Creech, a Predator trainer and an F-16 pilot. "I would love to … jump in an F-16 and go. But I'm a more valuable asset to the military doing this. It's not the sexiest answer, but it's true.

hondo
05-15-2010, 08:20 AM
If you see me continuing to post on other threads, you certainly
have a right to gloat in your usual smug way, Christian.

Fair enough?

LWW

LWW
05-15-2010, 08:39 AM
Did you have an opinion on this ... or just posting and running?

LWW

Deeman3
05-15-2010, 10:51 AM
Go Air Force!

hondo
05-15-2010, 03:30 PM
Looking for opinions.
I read an article by Nat Hentoff today that got me interested.

hondo
05-15-2010, 03:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go Air Force! </div></div>

Does it bother you that many civilians are being killed?

LWW
05-15-2010, 03:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go Air Force! </div></div>

Does it bother you that many civilians are being killed? </div></div>

Does it bother you that 3,000 US civilians were killed by the people we are going after?

Does it matter that we make every effort to avoid killing civilians while they make every effort to target civilians?

The math of it sucks to anyone with a conscience ... but it ultimately doesn't change anything. Had we not taken the war to them when we did, we almost certainly would have suffered more losses at home. Had we not abandoned the Northern Alliance and also toppled Saddam in 1991 most all of this could likely have been avoided. Had we not betrayed a loyal ally in the Shah, undoubtedly some Iranians would have been persecuted by his regime ... and the Iran-Iraq War, the Persian Gulf War, and OIF would probably have never happened.

LWW

hondo
05-15-2010, 04:20 PM
So, the non-piloted Predator Drones are making every effort not to kill civilians?
I didn't know that.
Thanks for keeping me informed, dud.
I'm feeling a lot better about this.

BTW, how does that work exactly?

And would you inform Ratigan and Hentoff for me?
They just aren't up on the details the way you are , buddy.

Sid_Vicious
05-15-2010, 06:49 PM
Ok I'm a stated leftie here, but if drones, which are statistically, a damned good surgical weapon, then I say the fear and death of sideline citizens, are acceptable. The far better chance is that the bad guys were near, at least at some time. Much of the collateral damage was and is most likely getting many sympathizers. Now that damn Shock & Awe Bush threw in Iraq was a holocaust in itself.

The drones...let them be. One will get BL, or at least keeping him grabbing his underwear and hauling ass. Frankly, I love the drones and cruise misle stuff we have developed here. Drone the hell out of'em!!! sid

LWW
05-16-2010, 12:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, the non-piloted Predator Drones are making every effort not to kill civilians?
I didn't know that.</div></div>

Possibly because I read the link and you didn't?

LWW

LWW
05-16-2010, 12:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for keeping me informed, dud.
I'm feeling a lot better about this.</div></div>

Well, since you won't do it yourself, I'm here to help.

LWW

LWW
05-16-2010, 12:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, how does that work exactly?</div></div>

It's really quite simple to follow once you understand the definition of the word drone. Because there is no pilot inside doesn't mean it has no pilot. The drone is remotely controlled at a great distance ... it's edge is that no pilot can be taken POW, it's costs are greatly reduced, and it is much harder to detect.

Unlike your apparent misconception, these are not autonomous flying "TERMINATOR" robots.

LWW

LWW
05-16-2010, 12:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And would you inform Ratigan and Hentoff for me?
They just aren't up on the details the way you are , buddy. </div></div>

No need as they are very up on the details ... I can tell because I read the articles.

LWW

cushioncrawler
05-16-2010, 01:09 AM
This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidels powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain.

Looks like there iz infidels and there iz infidels.
240 years changes everything it seems.
madMac.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/F-Nomad/US%20military/American-infidel.jpg

hondo
05-16-2010, 06:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, the non-piloted Predator Drones are making every effort not to kill civilians?
I didn't know that.</div></div>

Possibly because I read the link and you didn't?

LWW </div></div>

Duplicate post.

hondo
05-16-2010, 06:25 AM
Here we go again! Starting with your BS. I tried to have a conversation with you. Pizz off, dud. You're worthless.To quote Sid Hatfield to the union busters, " I wouldn't pee on you if your heart was on fire."

How about using that as my quote rather than that sarcastic quote about you being a great thinker?
It is nice to know you value my opinion so much, dud.

hondo
05-16-2010, 06:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, how does that work exactly?</div></div>

It's really quite simple to follow once you understand the definition of the word drone. Because there is no pilot inside doesn't mean it has no pilot. The drone is remotely controlled at a great distance ... it's edge is that no pilot can be taken POW, it's costs are greatly reduced, and it is much harder to detect.

Unlike your apparent misconception, these are not autonomous flying "TERMINATOR" robots.

LWW </div></div>

It looks like I read the comments from Ratigan and you didn't.
I tried to find Hentoff's comments on the Net and post but I
haven't found them yet.
A little more detail than what Ratigan said.

hondo
05-16-2010, 06:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And would you inform Ratigan and Hentoff for me?
They just aren't up on the details the way you are , buddy. </div></div>

No need as they are very up on the details ... I can tell because I read the articles.

LWW </div></div>

GOOD. Would you post Hentoff's article for me? It was in my paper but I can't find it on the Net.
We'll then see if you actually read it.

hondo
05-16-2010, 06:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, how does that work exactly?</div></div>

It's really quite simple to follow once you understand the definition of the word drone. Because there is no pilot inside doesn't mean it has no pilot. The drone is remotely controlled at a great distance ... it's edge is that no pilot can be taken POW, it's costs are greatly reduced, and it is much harder to detect.

Unlike your apparent misconception, these are not autonomous flying "TERMINATOR" robots.

LWW </div></div>


PREDATOR DRONES

The Predator Drones are Unmaned Aerial Vehicles are used by te United States and Isreal in targeted killings of community leaders. They operate by remote control shooting Hellfire Missiles at people living in countries all over the world. Many civilians are killed in these attacks. Predator Drones are are difficult to see from the ground and their realtime video transmitions are can fallow a subject for more than 42 hours without needing to land. The United States and Isreal claim they have the right to launch Hellfire Missiles at anyone they believe is a threat to their interests. Death from the sky without warning. The UN calls this program extrajudicial killing.

LWW
05-16-2010, 06:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And would you inform Ratigan and Hentoff for me?
They just aren't up on the details the way you are , buddy. </div></div>

No need as they are very up on the details ... I can tell because I read the articles.

LWW </div></div>

GOOD. Would you post Hentoff's article for me? It was in my paper but I can't find it on the Net.
We'll then see if you actually readit. </div></div>

&gt;&gt;&gt;HERE&lt;&lt;&lt; (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=hentoff+drones&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) is a list to several. Doesn't you internet use the google?

LWW

LWW
05-16-2010, 06:56 AM
So when were you going to address the questions I asked?

LWW

hondo
05-16-2010, 09:19 AM
.As our air war against terrorists accelerates — with strikes by pilotless drone planes, helicopters, et al. — unintentional civilian deaths and serious injuries mount. A Feb. 22 Wall Street Journal report from Kabul begins: “U.S. Special Operations Forces (hunting down Taliban) ordered an air strike that killed at least 27 civilians, and the soldiers may not have satisfied rules of engagement designed to avoid the killing of innocents, Afghan and coalitions officials said.”

Are these unilateral, president-authorized civilian killings justified in this global war against those who “want to kill us,” as our presidents have said?

Should corollary civilian deaths matter to us as Americans? Shouldn’t we know more about them? With regard to the actual targets of these strikes by, among others, the growing fleet of pilotless drones — including advanced models — the American Civil Liberties Union filed on Jan. 13 a Request Under (the) Freedom of Information Act (Expedited Processing Requested) that asks penetrating questions of the departments of Defense, State and Justice (including the Office of Legal Counsel, of which John Yoo is a notorious graduate). And, of course, there are also questions for the shadowy CIA to answer.


Obama remains silent

Only limited, and soon abandoned, attention has been paid by the press to these queries that, as of this writing, have yet to be answered by the government. If President Obama’s silence continues, there may well be a lawsuit by the ACLU. I no longer expect Congress to be exercised by such stretchings of our increasingly quaint rule of law. Therefore, the ACLU forthrightly asks:

“We seek information about the legal basis in domestic, foreign (and) international law for the use of drones to conduct targeted killings, and the rules and standards that the Armed Forces and the CIA use to determine ...

“The targets ... especially in the face of anticipated civilian causalities.” To what extent, I would add, are these drone strikes called off if civilian casualties are anticipated?

But all this information is classified. Should it be secret, however, when the ACLU tries to find out who actually makes these terminal targeting decisions in real time? What are their qualifications for these death-and-life rulings?

“Reports also suggest,” the ACLU FOIA request continues, that in addition to Air Force and Special Forces personnel, nonmilitary personnel including CIA agents are making targeting decisions, piloting drones and firing missiles.”

Particularly disturbing, “Defense contractors also appear to be playing an important part in the drone program.” What training do they get in deciding who gets killed?


No military oversight

In a challenge worthy of Obama’s personal attention, the ACLU goes on: “It appears, therefore, that lethal force is being exercised by individuals who are not in the military chain of command, are not subject to military rules and discipline or oversight.”

This creates a disquieting concern: “Without official sources of information, current estimates of the number and proportions of civilians killed vary widely.” For instance, the ACLU points out, “Pakistani authorities believe 90 percent of those killed in drone strikes were civilians.” But CIA Director Leon Panetta “assured the Pacific Council on International Policy (May 18, 2009) that drone strikes involve ‘a minimum of collateral damage.’ ” Say it plain: The damage is civilian deaths.

What was the 2009 “minimum” in Pakistan, as Panetta defines “minimum”?

Here we go again, Mr. President — providing the terrorists with valuable recruiting tools. I know you don’t want to look back at your predecessors’ lethal mistakes, but you yourself are increasing targeted killings and corollary fatal mistakes right now, and we citizens are in the dark. Shouldn’t we know under what American laws and international treaties you are involving us in these civilian deaths?

hondo
05-16-2010, 09:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So when were you going to address the questions I asked?

LWW </div></div>

See above.

LWW
05-16-2010, 11:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So when were you going to address the questions I asked?

LWW </div></div>

See above. </div></div>

"See above" was the opinion of someone else.

I asked yours.

LWW

pooltchr
05-16-2010, 11:54 AM
The left aren't allowed to have opinions...they simply repeat what they are told to repeat.

Steve

LWW
05-16-2010, 12:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The left aren't allowed to have opinions...they simply repeat what they are told to repeat.

Steve </div></div>

My bad.

I keep forgetting their fear of being busted for thoughtcrime.

LWW

hondo
05-16-2010, 06:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The left aren't allowed to have opinions...they simply repeat what they are told to repeat.

Steve </div></div>

Thanks for reminding me why so many posters on this forum
aren't worth responding to, Steve.
I needed that. I had been foolishly thinking about getting involved again.

LWW
05-17-2010, 04:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The left aren't allowed to have opinions...they simply repeat what they are told to repeat.

Steve </div></div>

Thanks for reminding me why so many posters on this forum
aren't worth responding to, Steve.
I needed that. I had been foolishly thinking about getting involved again. </div></div>

Being that you just made your 858th post since you announced you were back briefly ... I doubt the forum has the bandwidth to support you actually getting involved ... by your definitions that is.

LWW

Stretch
05-17-2010, 05:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The left aren't allowed to have opinions...they simply repeat what they are told to repeat.

Steve </div></div>

Thanks for reminding me why so many posters on this forum
aren't worth responding to, Steve.
I needed that. I had been foolishly thinking about getting involved again. </div></div>

Being that you just made your 858th post since you announced you were back briefly ... I doubt the forum has the bandwidth to support you actually getting involved ... by your definitions that is.

LWW </div></div>

Obviously if the bandwidth can handle you it can handle anyone. St.

Qtec
05-17-2010, 05:53 AM
The problem with drones is that the shooters never see the victims. The Afghanis see it as cowardly.

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reN0dOQHFPs)

Mistakes are made and it doesn't help winning hearts and minds, which is imperative if you want peace.

Q

LWW
05-17-2010, 07:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with drones is that the shooters never see the victims. The Afghanis see it as cowardly.

Q </div></div>

And sending children out with bombs strapped to them isn't?

LWW

pooltchr
05-17-2010, 08:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Afghanis see it as cowardly.


Q </div></div>

Are we supposed to be more concerned with what the Afghanis think, or with saving lives of our servicemen and women?

Do they really care what we think about their tactics against us????????????????????????

Steve

Gayle in MD
05-17-2010, 08:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with drones is that the shooters never see the victims. The Afghanis see it as cowardly.

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reN0dOQHFPs)

Mistakes are made and it doesn't help winning hearts and minds, which is imperative if you want peace.

Q </div></div>

Two very good points.

Two other worries, why don't they keep the location from which they are being directed, a secret! They surely should.

Richard Clarke's new book is chock full of cyber attack and hacking warnings....I wonder, how hard would it be for some computer genius to crash into theiir computers and redirect the target....Not impossible, that's for sure.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mistakes are made and it doesn't help winning hearts and minds, which is imperative if you want peace.

Q </div></div>


Absolutely! According to the Right's Supreme General, General Patreaus, that is the lynchpin of our strategy in the Middle East, but doesn't seem to have worked very well....and with Maliki warning of the escalating civil war, in Iraq, well, guess I won't bother bringing up "The Surge" thingie.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

It's a mess over there, for sure, all of it, and terrorist attacks increased all over the world, as Bush's idiotic incompetence dug this disasterous hole, while al Qaeda operations franchised and spread around the world, fractured off and turned into various regional leadership, many indenpendant of B.L., all our terrorist problems escalated under George Bush...

He only left no win options...the Chimpprez.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sid_Vicious
05-17-2010, 10:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with drones is that the shooters never see the victims. The Afghanis see it as cowardly.

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reN0dOQHFPs)

Mistakes are made and it doesn't help winning hearts and minds, which is imperative if you want peace.

Q </div></div>

"The problem with drones is that the shooters never see the victims. The Afghanis see it as cowardly."

You know what, I don't really GaF if the Afganis think it's cowardly. Frankly, if it was me, I'd tell the whole criticizing bunch, "Adios!" and leave that country to deal with it on their own. I'll be damned if I'd let their opinion for our modern weaponry make one iota for using our weapons and technology at will.

If you are going to fight a war, then do your soldiers a favor and do the damn war right, USE OUR TECHNOLOGY TO THE FULLEST. sid

pooltchr
05-17-2010, 10:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You know what, I don't really GaF if the Afganis think it's cowardly. Frankly, if it was me, I'd tell the whole criticizing bunch, "Adios!" and leave that country to deal with it on their own. I'll be damned if I'd let their opinion for our modern weaponry make one iota for using our weapons and technology at will.

If you are going to fight a war, then do your soldiers a favor and do the damn war right, USE OUR TECHNOLOGY TO THE FULLEST. sid
</div></div>

One of the best posts you have ever written, IMO.

Steve

Qtec
05-18-2010, 12:18 AM
Killing 100,s of innocent civilians makes the job harder for the troops on the ground.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to fight a war, then do your soldiers a favor and do the damn war right, USE OUR TECHNOLOGY TO THE FULLEST. sid </div></div>

That was tried in Vietnam and it didn't work.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, if it was me, I'd tell the whole criticizing bunch, "Adios!" and leave that country to deal with it on their own </div></div>

That's one option and probably the best one.

Q

hondo
05-18-2010, 05:16 AM
Tap! Tap! TaP!