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Doctor_D
08-22-2002, 06:00 PM
Good evening:

Check out the forums on www.azbilliards.com (http://www.azbilliards.com) and you will find some interesting posts on the draw and the brackets for this tournament.

/ccboard/images/icons/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/icons/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/icons/shocked.gif

Dr. D.

Karatemom
08-22-2002, 06:19 PM
Chris called earlier and said that Fran had lost her match today. He didn't get to see it though so I don't know any details. She plays again tomorrow at 10:30 a.m. Will keep you posted.

Heide

Nostroke
08-22-2002, 06:37 PM
I dont see any brackets at az billiards- where are they?

Barbara
08-22-2002, 07:03 PM
I think the new "chart" is absolutely ridiculous and perfectly designed to keep the top 16 in their little places.

Wasn't it Dave Syrjia that pointed out that having two byes right off the bat guarantees the player no less than a top half of the field finish?

How insulting to the rest of the players! But then again, it's another way for Steve Tipton to get his nose farther up some of the top pros' butts! Heck! He'd crawl up there if they'd let him!!

Barbara~~~hoping Fran scores some good wins... ...and hoping Big Dave is doing okay, too...

08-22-2002, 07:10 PM
Nostroke, very unusual for Mike over at az not to have brackets online at this point - well in to the first day of a major WPBA event. My guess is he'll have something posted by tonight. - Chris in NC

jjinfla
08-22-2002, 07:12 PM
Not only does it guarantee them finishing in the top half but it guarantees them a bunch of tour points. Maybe the next tour the top 16 will want the 7 and out. Jake

Vagabond
08-22-2002, 07:43 PM
Howdy folks,
some one u love is on the wrong path--u try to steer him/her in the right direction.That person does not heed to your warning and keeps going in the wrong path.u want to stop him/her going down hill but u can`t do any thing.Finally he/she takes the final sprint towards his/her final destiny to the hole.It is sad and hurting to watch some one u love getting hurt.Mens pro tour was destroyed and now it is women`s tour on the road to destruction.I am a helpless observer.
vagabond

Troy
08-22-2002, 08:19 PM
Quote from Mike at AZB ---

-----------------------------------------------
Posted By: Housepro housepro@azbilliards.com
Date: August 22, 2002, at 2:06 p.m.

OK, I have the draw from Illinois, but it is going to take some time today to put together these brackets.

The top 16 players get two byes, the 17-32 players get one bye. The 33-64 players probably end up playing match after match til they get to go home.

What a mess.

Mike
-----------------------------------------------
Can the ladies say REVOLT !!!!!

Can Tipton breathe ??? (Think about it)

Troy...~~~ Sad day folks..... /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

08-22-2002, 10:10 PM
Just as we anticipated - the top 16 get two byes and the next 16 get one bye. As if it wasn't tough enough for them already, the #33-64 players have to win 2 matches before they start the tourney on a level playing field with the seeded players. This new format has Mike Howerton so confused over at azbilliards, that he's yet to post the brackets - unheralded for him!

These lower ranked players could complete the tourney with a 2-2 match record and finish in the same place (T33) and earn the same prize money as any seeded player that goes 2-and-out.

It also means that there must be 32 matches played (at least 4 sessions) before the seeded players start playing no earlier than Thursday night. Well isn't that just great for the first day fans who've come to see the top players perform. If some of these lower ranked players do make it to that 3rd round by Thursday night, it will be the 3rd match of the day for them, while the seeded players are still fresh and well rested - playing their first match.

In all honesty though - those unseeded players will have already shaken off opening match jitters, have more momentum and confidence, and will have had the opportunity to adjust to the table conditions - so it wouldn't surprise me to see more upsets than usual in this 3rd round. Wouldn't that be sweet justice if this format change backfired in their faces and led to more upsets of seeded players!

I'm sorry, but IMO some of the actions of the board this past year constitute a clear abuse of power. It's almost as if they are flaunting, daring, and maybe even hoping that there is a revolt/rebellion among the membership at large - so that someone will step up and start a new tour. - Chris in NC

jjinfla
08-23-2002, 06:15 AM
Five of the top 16 lost their first match. If the top 16 were just seeded in a tournament that would give them a tremendous advantage over the field. But to give them two byes and then seed them in round three is an absurdity. Sarah Ellerby, Tiffany Nelson and Kim Shaw are forced to enter because they are close enough to be contenders but the rest of the field are just door mats. Jake

Wally_in_Cincy
08-23-2002, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: jjinfla:</font><hr> Not only does it guarantee them finishing in the top half but it guarantees them a bunch of tour points.
-------------------
Maybe the next tour the top 16 will want the 7 and out. Jake <hr></blockquote>

Hey don't give 'em any ideas /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

Seriously, this is an absolute joke. I was gonna go to this event but now I'm glad I didn't. Instead of enjoying the matches I would just be sitting there seething.

It would have been interesting, however, to talk to nos. 33-64 and hear first hand their opinions about this situation.

Seeding I have no problem with, but this is plain crazy /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-23-2002, 07:03 AM
I didn't notice until Jake pointed it out.
Look who went down:
Mancini
Kelly
Line
Loree Jon
Campos

Coming in cold against somebody who's in stroke might not be such a good idea after all/ccboard/images/icons/tongue.gif.
Hmmm....looks like it's time for another survey. /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

08-23-2002, 08:00 AM
First of all, Mike H at AZ, great job with the brackets. That must've been a massive pain.

Second, if the bottom 32 continue to play these events without vocalizing their opposition, nothing will ever change. Now that the brackets are here before our collective face, we can easily "see" the absurdity. My wife lost to a friend of hers in the first round, then her friend lost the next round. You know where they are now? In exactly the same place bracket-wise. THIS IS NONSENSE.

Even if all matches were 50% (which they're not, due to the seeding), an up-and-coming girl would have only a 25% chance of not ending up in the first-round of the losers bracket. Put alternatively, they have a 75% chance of being in the first round of the loser's bracket.

These women have worked so hard to earn chances to compete at this level, and to be treated like this is shameful.

- Steve

08-23-2002, 08:08 AM
I think I read this was the first tournament run this way. Now everyone should know what to expect for the next tournament. I think I read the next WPBA tournament will be soon. Maybe the top 16 won't get any buys in the next tournament. That's because maybe it will only make sense for the top 16 to enter any future WPBA tournaments. Just a thought.

9 Ball Girl
08-23-2002, 08:26 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/wpbaillinois2002/brackets.cfm

AzHousePro
08-23-2002, 09:27 AM
I have brackets already made up for 16, 32, 64, 128 and various single elimination draws so that it won't take me forever to post brackets when I get them. I had no idea what they were going to do until yesterday morning when I got the opening draw.

I won't tell you how many hours it took to build the brackets for that mess.

The story I heard from Illinois was that the players had a 3 hour players meeting and did not want to run the brackets this way. Tipton said he had already made the draw and WPBA rules firmly state that there is never a redraw so they were stuck with it.

However, it looks like you were right Chris. The top 16 are still getting beaten by the up-and-comers. No matter how they stack the board, Kim Shaw and Sarah Ellerby are still going to show that they belong on that tour.

Mike

cuechick
08-23-2002, 09:33 AM
The WPBA is cutting it's own throat. Not only is it making the whole process a joke, what they fail to see, is they are destroying the very thing they are trying to perserve. I hope the media, BD, AZ, IP and P&amp;B don't drop the ball and give them the scruntiny they deserve. It's like the bottom 1/3rd of the field is playing another qualifer in the pro event!!!
Who will take pool serioulsy with this kind od BS!?!

08-23-2002, 09:39 AM
Mike, are you saying that the draw was made before the players got there? They don't have the draw done "in public"??

And why wouldn't he have waited until after the players' meeting to do the draw anyway, in light of the unusual circumstances of this new system?

- Steve

08-23-2002, 10:09 AM
Barb wrote: Wasn't it Dave Syrjia that pointed out that having two byes right off the bat guarantees the player no less than a top half of the field finish?

If that is true, Barb, then this decision to give byes to the top 16 in tournaments is even more insular than I initially thought. My first thought was, "they want to protect their finishes in any given tournament, which in turn helps them retain sponsorship, etc." But it has a much further-reaching effect by making it exponentially harder for up and coming players to even get the opportunity to play at the WPBA level AT ALL or to turn pro.

Prior to this top-16 bye ruling, it was already difficult for a semi-pro, regional player to secure one of the few available slots on a stand-by basis in a WPBA tournament. They need to play in the events in order to secure their pro status; that is achieved by finishing in the top half of a few pro (WPBA) events.

Imagine how much harder it is NOW to finish in the top half of the field when 16 of those 32 positions are closed off because they are guaranteed to the top-16 through the bye system!

This whole ruling is pitiful and it smacks of a "let them eat cake" mentality. If the top 16 were that secure about their skill and ability at the table, then it shouldn't be necessary to find ways to avoid playing through the event like everyone else.

Troy
08-23-2002, 11:35 AM
He does it his way regardless of merit or common sense.

I wonder how he can breathe considering where his head is. Think about it.....

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr> Mike, are you saying that the draw was made before the players got there? They don't have the draw done "in public"??

And why wouldn't he have waited until after the players' meeting to do the draw anyway, in light of the unusual circumstances of this new system?

- Steve

<hr></blockquote>

AzHousePro
08-23-2002, 02:27 PM
That is the understanding I have. I can only think of one reason that he would not have waited til after the players meeting. If he waited, the players had a chance to decide against it.

08-23-2002, 04:29 PM
And it looks like they have bumped someone else up into one of the "double-bye" spots, because all 16 of them are taken.

Interesting.

shayla
08-23-2002, 05:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris in NC:</font><hr> Just as we anticipated - the top 16 get two byes and the next 16 get one bye. As if it wasn't tough enough for them already, the #33-64 players have to win 2 matches before they start the tourney on a level playing field with the seeded players.

- Chris in NC <hr></blockquote>

Someone said before that we had to remember that the top 50 were surveyed about this and that it couldn't be all about benefiting the top 16. Well, if they surveyed the top 50, the top 16 get 2 byes, 17-32 get a bye, and the rest of the 50 get no byes. So, obviously 32 in favor of this change as opposed to 17 against it. Since 32 is greater than 17, its obvious they went with the majority on this survey. So, you see, only the people that had anything to gain with this new change were the ones surveyed. The WPBA decided to survey 50 just so they can sleep at night!

-Shayla

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2002, 05:35 PM
Barbara,
I am not a huge Steve Tipton fan, but I have known him and his wife (Pat Tipton) since the late 80s.

What did Steve have to do with these seedings? I thought the WPBA officials were responsible for these changes.

Barbara
08-23-2002, 06:39 PM
Tom,

Steve is the Tournament Director for the WPBA. He runs their tournaments. From what I've been told, Steve developed this chart. And probably to satisfy the top pros whose friendship he so covets because they found out that they were losing their first round matches. Ye gads!

I know Steve and his wife, too. About 6 years ago when I made semi-pro in my tour, I sent the required $100 to Steve (then WPBA executive director, read: a-hole) to get my semi pro card. What a thrill that was to me! Never got the card and can only imagine that Steve and Pat had a very nice dinner out on my expense.

Barbara~~~not a Steve Tipton fan, can ya tell?

Karatemom
08-23-2002, 09:16 PM
I know this is off the subject a little, but I said I would update and this is what I know. Fran lost her first match, but she has won her second. Go get 'em Fran!!!!

Heide ~ doesn't know much but what Chris tells her, LOL

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2002, 09:31 PM
Great win over Vicki Paski for Fran.. woooohoooo

08-24-2002, 07:50 AM
Not confirmed but the information I saw this morning indicated the Fran unfortunately lost her third match. I believe it was to K. White.