PDA

View Full Version : Calling A "Double Hit" Foul



Coroner
05-23-2010, 10:26 AM
I have trouble recognizing/calling "double hit" fouls. You all know the situation, the CB is 1" or so from the OB and the player hits the OB will a fairly full hit. The angle of the hit can vary and the CB could be hit with a draw stroke. Can you tell from the OB and or CB reaction if the hit is fair or foul? I'd like to hear your opinions. Thanks!

dr_dave
05-23-2010, 12:33 PM
FYI, lot of information (including numerous video demonstrations) on how to detect and avoid double hits can be found here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double

Enjoy,
Dave
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coroner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have trouble recognizing/calling "double hit" fouls. You all know the situation, the CB is 1" or so from the OB and the player hits the OB will a fairly full hit. The angle of the hit can vary and the CB could be hit with a draw stroke. Can you tell from the OB and or CB reaction if the hit is fair or foul? I'd like to hear your opinions. Thanks! </div></div>

Jal
05-23-2010, 12:50 PM
If the CB moves forward of the tangent line immediately after impact in any noticeable or significant way, it was a double hit.

If you want to get a thorough grounding in judging fair vs foul, I would highly recommend you view these videos, put together by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett. Bob Jewett is, I believe, head of the BCA referee training program.

The first set of three videos is a test you can take to see how well you know the rules and are able to tell if they were violated. The second set consists of the answers--you may want to just jump ahead and view them.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-62.htm

With regard to the draw shot, see specifically shots 17 (first video) and 39 (second video). There are other examples.

Jim

Coroner
05-23-2010, 04:19 PM
Thanks Dr. Dave and Jal, this really helps.

dr_dave
05-23-2010, 05:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coroner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Dr. Dave and Jal, this really helps. </div></div>
You're welcome.

We aim to squerve,
Dave

wolfdancer
05-23-2010, 05:43 PM
Dr. Dave....you didn't.....even I, who can't pass up a pun, no matter how poor....would not have written that...

cushioncrawler
05-23-2010, 08:47 PM
When asked for my opinion, right after getting the fully detailed deskription of what happened, and before answering, i allways asks...
....... Woz it my team-mate or the opponent???
madMac.

Sid_Vicious
05-24-2010, 02:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If the CB moves forward of the tangent line immediately after impact in any noticeable or significant way, it was a double hit.

If you want to get a thorough grounding in judging fair vs foul, I would highly recommend you view these videos, put together by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett. Bob Jewett is, I believe, head of the BCA referee training program.

The first set of three videos is a test you can take to see how well you know the rules and are able to tell if they were violated. The second set consists of the answers--you may want to just jump ahead and view them.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-62.htm

With regard to the draw shot, see specifically shots 17 (first video) and 39 (second video). There are other examples.

Jim </div></div>

It should be this simple, but the BCA discretion is all fucked up when you actually get a judge looking at a nearly pinned pair of OB/CB pair. I've been hosed when a seasoned BCA judge(maybe a wimp in actual judgement at the time), allowed forward movement through the path of the OB after contact. This "nip stroke" or "pop draw" is illegal when the plane of the OB is crossed, but BEWARE!, the dickheads judging are just that, dicks, and very many are sorry excuses of pure judges of a double hit. Truth be,,,lots of people called to watch a hit are so timid they GIVE the shooter the call.

The 'less than a chalks width' rule and THE CB not crossing the plane of the OB's resting spot, SHOULD BE THE ABSOLUTE END to the discussion. But NO, these whizbang(BS players mostly), self declared, nip shot shooters, and fancy pop shot artists, keep the rule set all busted when the nut cutting time really comes for a judgement call. Dopes who are so called BCA certified judges, ALWAYS give the call to them, hence creating serious doubts in new players getting the screwy analogy of calls over a very plain & and simple approach of the CB and OB being extremely close in proximity. This "bending of an easy rule" is what creates turmoil in much of today's simple pool rooms, just like bar rules used to. sid

BCA Master Instr
05-26-2010, 11:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If the CB moves forward of the tangent line immediately after impact in any noticeable or significant way, it was a double hit.

If you want to get a thorough grounding in judging fair vs foul, I would highly recommend you view these videos, put together by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett. Bob Jewett is, I believe, head of the BCA referee training program.

The first set of three videos is a test you can take to see how well you know the rules and are able to tell if they were violated. The second set consists of the answers--you may want to just jump ahead and view them.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-62.htm

With regard to the draw shot, see specifically shots 17 (first video) and 39 (second video). There are other examples.

Jim </div></div>

It should be this simple, but the BCA discretion is all fucked up when you actually get a judge looking at a nearly pinned pair of OB/CB pair. I've been hosed when a seasoned BCA judge(maybe a wimp in actual judgement at the time), allowed forward movement through the path of the OB after contact. This "nip stroke" or "pop draw" is illegal when the plane of the OB is crossed, but BEWARE!, the dickheads judging are just that, dicks, and very many are sorry excuses of pure judges of a double hit. Truth be,,,lots of people called to watch a hit are so timid they GIVE the shooter the call.

The 'less than a chalks width' rule and THE CB not crossing the plane of the OB's resting spot, SHOULD BE THE ABSOLUTE END to the discussion. But NO, these whizbang(BS players mostly), self declared, nip shot shooters, and fancy pop shot artists, keep the rule set all busted when the nut cutting time really comes for a judgement call. Dopes who are so called BCA certified judges, ALWAYS give the call to them, hence creating serious doubts in new players getting the screwy analogy of calls over a very plain & and simple approach of the CB and OB being extremely close in proximity. This "bending of an easy rule" is what creates turmoil in much of today's simple pool rooms, just like bar rules used to. sid </div></div>


Jesus Sid, how do you realy feel....:-)

1Time
05-28-2010, 01:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This "nip stroke" or "pop draw" is illegal when the plane of the OB is crossed, but BEWARE!, the dickheads judging are just that, dicks, and very many are sorry excuses of pure judges of a double hit. Truth be,,,lots of people called to watch a hit are so timid they GIVE the shooter the call. </div></div>
I agree with you Sid_Vicious. Timid dickheads like these are worse than useless; they're destructive to pool.

Sid_Vicious
05-31-2010, 10:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This "nip stroke" or "pop draw" is illegal when the plane of the OB is crossed, but BEWARE!, the dickheads judging are just that, dicks, and very many are sorry excuses of pure judges of a double hit. Truth be,,,lots of people called to watch a hit are so timid they GIVE the shooter the call. </div></div>
I agree with you Sid_Vicious. Timid dickheads like these are worse than useless; they're destructive to pool. </div></div>

One that called my memorable judged shot when the opponent was even less than HALF a chalk width's distance between the OB and CB, was one of the head refs for BCA in the Nationals. It was a local league event here in Dallas though, but it sucked that these rules are not iron clad, cuz by the time the "judged shot" was made was short, and this pro BCA judge had this "deer caught in headlights" look and said, "OK."

It ought to be as simple as the rules state, "If it's less than a chalk's width distance between the OB and CB, then any forward travel of the CB through the resting place of the OB, is a BIH foul." All of these AH's promoting the possibilities some players may have for executing the nip or pop-draw that well, are simply asking for a lot of disputes over good and bad shots made from an established rule about this mess. There ain't no human being able to accurately judge those close up double hits, and as a very good local player told me a long time ago..."Martin, shoot that shot quick and hard...the judge will give you the call most all of the time."

When the balls are that close, you simply should make an angle hit, or get the foul when the plane of the OB is crossed. I am personally shocked that most of these veterans, who are also seasoned BCA statured figures, insist on defending this BS. it just asks for conflict, no matter if there are players who can shoot the shot cleanly. It would take a hi-speed camera to be sure though, HENCE the rule about the chalks distance and crossing the plane. KISS, keep it simple stupid, make the stroker shoot off of the R or L line. Otherwise, drop that rule altogether. sid

BCA Master Instr
06-01-2010, 04:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This "nip stroke" or "pop draw" is illegal when the plane of the OB is crossed, but BEWARE!, the dickheads judging are just that, dicks, and very many are sorry excuses of pure judges of a double hit. Truth be,,,lots of people called to watch a hit are so timid they GIVE the shooter the call. </div></div>
I agree with you Sid_Vicious. Timid dickheads like these are worse than useless; they're destructive to pool. </div></div>

One that called my memorable judged shot when the opponent was even less than HALF a chalk width's distance between the OB and CB, was one of the head refs for BCA in the Nationals. It was a local league event here in Dallas though, but it sucked that these rules are not iron clad, cuz by the time the "judged shot" was made was short, and this pro BCA judge had this "deer caught in headlights" look and said, "OK."

It ought to be as simple as the rules state, "If it's less than a chalk's width distance between the OB and CB, then any forward travel of the CB through the resting place of the OB, is a BIH foul." All of these AH's promoting the possibilities some players may have for executing the nip or pop-draw that well, are simply asking for a lot of disputes over good and bad shots made from an established rule about this mess. There ain't no human being able to accurately judge those close up double hits, and as a very good local player told me a long time ago..."Martin, shoot that shot quick and hard...the judge will give you the call most all of the time."

When the balls are that close, you simply should make an angle hit, or get the foul when the plane of the OB is crossed. I am personally shocked that most of these veterans, who are also seasoned BCA statured figures, insist on defending this BS. it just asks for conflict, no matter if there are players who can shoot the shot cleanly. It would take a hi-speed camera to be sure though, HENCE the rule about the chalks distance and crossing the plane. KISS, keep it simple stupid, make the stroker shoot off of the R or L line. Otherwise, drop that rule altogether. sid </div></div>


Sid: There is no "rule" in the BCA Rule book about the chalk distance......

wolfdancer
06-01-2010, 07:32 PM
I was taught that...and always thought it was in da good book of rules. I used to run tournaments and ref matches...warned people of that infraction, and called it as a foul.....?????

Sid_Vicious
06-04-2010, 10:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was taught that...and always thought it was in da good book of rules. I used to run tournaments and ref matches...warned people of that infraction, and called it as a foul.....?????
</div></div>

I might be incorrect, but I think that I remember the chalk's width deal when I went to Randy's school. That was back in the early 90s, so I could be wrong.

I'll tell you this though. Google "chalk width double foul" and see how many pages you fill in responses containing that verbage, in near exact detail. It(chalk's width) may not be in the actual rules book, but it is sure "a standard" by tenured players. sid