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PQQLK9
08-25-2002, 07:55 AM
They come in My House (PH) and when i'm trying to get a One Pocket game (which they never have heard of) insist on playing 8 ball...now I explain that in here we play by APA league rules (BIH on fouls) and they agree. Now, they foul and I take BIH and run out and they say "oh you play by 9 ball rules"....DUH !/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

phil in sofla
08-25-2002, 11:38 AM
Do they get upset if the ball goes in some other pocket from what you intended, but you keep shooting? (The worst APA rule, in my opinion).

But at least you're not using BCA rules. NOBODY unfamiliar with BCA rules would think it proper that you can scratch on the 8 and not lose the game, so long as the 8 stays unpocketed.

Cueless Joey
08-25-2002, 12:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> Do they get upset if the ball goes in some other pocket from what you intended, but you keep shooting? (The worst APA rule, in my opinion).

But at least you're not using BCA rules. NOBODY unfamiliar with BCA rules would think it proper that you can scratch on the 8 and not lose the game, so long as the 8 stays unpocketed. <hr></blockquote>
No kidding. Explain that to them. lol
How about the legal break? No rail foul?
Open table after the break? Shoot a ball in a pocket and call safe? (some would argue but if I wanted not to call safe, all I have to do is call the opposite pocket,duh)
Sorry, but bar box players have no clue of the rules in 8-ball. Well, most of em anywayz.lol

NH_Steve
08-25-2002, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> NOBODY unfamiliar with BCA rules would think it proper that you can scratch on the 8 and not lose the game, so long as the 8 stays unpocketed. <hr></blockquote> Does this translate into 'anybody familiar with BCA rules would think it proper that you can scratch on the 8 and not lose the game, so long as the 8 stays unpocketed.' Or maybe, 'NOBODY unfamiliar with BCA rules would not think it improper that you can scratch on the 8 and not lose the game, so long as the 8 stays unpocketed'...
I'm confused /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
but then again, I prefer One Pocket /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Troy
08-25-2002, 01:37 PM
Phil, I certainly agree with on that one BCA 8-Ball rule, but I would definitely NOT throw out the entire BCA Rule Book just because of one bad rule. Sort of like the "Baby and the bath water"..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Besides, what Rule Book would you prefer to use ???

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> Do they get upset if the ball goes in some other pocket from what you intended, but you keep shooting? (The worst APA rule, in my opinion).

But at least you're not using BCA rules. NOBODY unfamiliar with BCA rules would think it proper that you can scratch on the 8 and not lose the game, so long as the 8 stays unpocketed. <hr></blockquote>

08-25-2002, 01:41 PM
Phil,

If you dislike having to teach beginners the rules, maybe you just shouldn't play with beginners.

If YOU don't like the rule you mention, consider that it isn't automatic loss of game to scratch off the money ball in 9-ball, straight pool, or one-pocket. Why, then, should this foul receive an exceptional penalty in the case of 8-ball? The BCA rule seems okay to me.

--Straight, No Chaser

StLSteve
08-25-2002, 07:09 PM
It comes down to who taught you the rules when you were coming up. When I was old enough (tall) to play my Dad would let me play on the bar boxes in the tavern(s). And among my friends when my buddies' Dad got a table for his basement. The rules for 8 ball were, scratch, and the cue was in the kitchen and had to kick if your object ball was there. Hit the opponents ball first, bad hit, you lose your shot, no BIH. the rules we used for 9 ball were about the same, other than you could sink the 9 using the ball you were on at the time. Now I know about the rules, I didn't then and some players are like that, they play by the only rules they know. If you can show one the correct way, they might take that back to their bar box and teach others the correct way. Before you know it, they'll all know the rules. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

08-26-2002, 07:19 AM
Phil: You sure live in a small world. 52 million pool players = 52 million versions of rules. The BCA Rules Committe had to take a stand on certain issues. They did and I like the fairness of it. In your situation they made the "break" a skill, not strength!

No matter where I travel, I can play BCA Rules with out any problems.......Thanks for listening....randyg

phil in sofla
08-26-2002, 01:35 PM
Um, Randy, I didn't say anything about the '8 going on the break,' which you appear to be referencing. I have no strong opinion about whatever rule anyone wants to play as to 8 on the break (although LOSING if that happens does seem a little wrong).

However, I still think either following the APA rule that any ball in your group that goes (assuming a good original hit) continues your turn (that is, slop counts), OR the BCA rule on scratching on the 8, is a recipe for controversy with anyone who isn't an APA or BCA league player (respectively).

phil in sofla
08-26-2002, 01:44 PM
I don't dislike having to tell 'beginners' (or just bar pool players) the rules. I'm happy to specify the rules, or have them specify them, just so that we all agree ahead of time how we're playing. Equally, then, I don't mind playing by what I've found to be the common denominator 'bar pool rules'-- 8 on the break wins, your group is what you sink on the break, must call 'the (whole) shot' (not just the pocket), any scratch when shooting on the 8 loses, etc. And playing someone using 'bar rules,' I'll be sure to find out if they want to play '8 ball has to go clean' or if kisses, caroms, etc. are ok so long as you specify them BEFORE we start.

phil in sofla
08-26-2002, 01:59 PM
BCA rules are fine with me, except for this rule on the 8, and I've played that rule anyway, in one season of league and in some of the 8-ball tournaments locally.

However, it is hard to say 'we're playing by BCA rules,' and then call a loss of game when a player scratches while shooting the 8 and the 8 doesn't go, since that isn't the BCA rule. And, for someone vaguely (at best) familiar with BCA, handling it the BCA rule way will likely prompt an explosion of disbelief and argument. (Moral of the story-- bring along your copy of the rules to show them if there is a controversy).

As to what other rules I'd prefer, almost ANY rules will do, if they are agreed upon in advance, and are known. So, I've seen posted house rules in bars, and if they are complete, those will do just fine. My ideal rules would be APA as to winning with the 8 on the break and losing if scratched when shooting the 8, and then BCA as to an open table after the break, calling pocket only, cue ball fouls only, etc. Sort of a hybrid between a couple sets of rules is what I prefer, and see if I can get my opponent to agree to them. If not, whatever they want, so long as it is clearly specified.

phil in sofla
08-26-2002, 02:07 PM
What I think it means, and what I meant to say, is that only BCA players among those who play 8 ball, play that particular rule on scratching on the 8. If you've never played BCA rules, you never played this way on the 8. And someone who hasn't seen BCA rules would consider someone claiming not to have lost the game if that happens to be 'making up rules,' and cheating. AND, even people who know the BCA rule on that may not like to play that way, although they'd know someone wasn't making it up on the fly.

phil in sofla
08-26-2002, 02:13 PM
Forgot to remark on your analogy to other games.

These games are different in many respects. 3 consecutive fouls in 9-ball loses the game (if the magic words 'you're on two!' are said), 3 consecutive fouls in straight pool causes a 15 point penalty, and 3 consecutive fouls in 8 ball usually has NO additional penalty other than ball in hand. (I know, some 8-ball rules also have a loss of game provision for 3 consecutive fouls, but most 8-ball rules do not).

Just as the 9 can go anywhere, and early, and you can still win in 9-ball, but that isn't true in 8-ball. So while it may be an interesting contrast, differing treatments in various games is justified entirely in that the games are different.

08-26-2002, 06:16 PM
PHIL: Very true...randyg

08-26-2002, 08:54 PM
Hey Nick,

You always win though right? LOL

In the last 2 years I've played barroom 8-ball in Cincy, Pittsburgh, Lexington, Cocoa Beach, Key West, Indy, St. Louis, Columbus OH, and ones I've forgotten.With one exception (one guy in Cocoa Beach knew APA rules) the rules were bar rules-call your shot-every bank, rail, and carom. I don't think we can change this. You know the old saying "When in Rome..."

Slaphappy Wally in da Natty

griffith_d
08-27-2002, 06:12 AM
This rules reasoning, is the reason apples do not taste like oranges.

Griff

dave
08-27-2002, 08:24 AM
This generalized, incorrect, characterization of bar box players as being a group of people ignorant of rules variations and games other than eightball is arrogant and self serving. I am sure that there are plenty of individuals that fit your description, but to apply that perception to large numbers of people who don't chose to play in, or have accesss to a pool hall is grossly unfair and inaccurate.

PQQLK9
08-27-2002, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dave:</font><hr> This generalized, incorrect, characterization of bar box players as being a group of people ignorant of rules variations and games other than eightball is arrogant and self serving. I am sure that there are plenty of individuals that fit your description, but to apply that perception to large numbers of people who don't chose to play in, or have accesss to a pool hall is grossly unfair and inaccurate. <hr></blockquote>

Very true Dave...I sure ain't the brightest pup in tha pound.../ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif