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View Full Version : Finger Stroke In Dave's Video, Legal?



Sid_Vicious
06-16-2010, 02:55 PM
Looking at ways to avoid double hits in these videos, and the one way came up that I THINK I heard was disallowed for not being legal. Taking the whole cue, laying it on the table and ONLY GRASPING IT BY THE END NEAR THE TIP, no other holding points of the cue than that, and neatly pulling the cue for control to keep from the double hit. We've most all seen or done this shot over time. "Is that a legal shot now according to BCA rules?" I seem to remember that the forward stroke of the cue had to be replicated better than this whole cue drag on the table shot. Am I wrong? sid

BCA Master Instr
06-16-2010, 06:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at ways to avoid double hits in these videos, and the one way came up that I THINK I heard was disallowed for not being legal. Taking the whole cue, laying it on the table and ONLY GRASPING IT BY THE END NEAR THE TIP, no other holding points of the cue than that, and neatly pulling the cue for control to keep from the double hit. We've most all seen or done this shot over time. "Is that a legal shot now according to BCA rules?" I seem to remember that the forward stroke of the cue had to be replicated better than this whole cue drag on the table shot. Am I wrong? sid </div></div>

Sid is correct.

PoolsMyGame
06-18-2010, 01:30 PM
I only play casually, but even those games follow the rules. I've never heard of holding the area near the tip to avoid doube hitting to be illegal -- it's not like you're holding/hitting the ball. I'd probably consult a booklet or something of the sort.

dr_dave
06-20-2010, 05:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at ways to avoid double hits in these videos, and the one way came up that I THINK I heard was disallowed for not being legal. Taking the whole cue, laying it on the table and ONLY GRASPING IT BY THE END NEAR THE TIP, no other holding points of the cue than that, and neatly pulling the cue for control to keep from the double hit. We've most all seen or done this shot over time. "Is that a legal shot now according to BCA rules?" I seem to remember that the forward stroke of the cue had to be replicated better than this whole cue drag on the table shot. Am I wrong? sid </div></div>I have many videos concerning how to detect and avoid double hits here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double
Are you referring to one of those, or are you referring to Shot 710 on Disc V of VEPS (http://dr-dave-billiards.com/veps/disc_V_shots.pdf)?

The classic foul is using your fingers to lift the tip from under the ball while resting the butt of the cue on the table. This is a foul because there is no forward stroke into the ball (see WPA rule 8.2 (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_def#8.2)). On VEPS-V, we demonstrate a "reverse finger stroke" where the butt still rests on the table, but the fingers and wrist are used to create a small and controlled amount of forward stroke to prevent a double hit. With this shot, the tip is not lifted ... there is a forward stroke. This shot is not a foul.

Regards,
Dave

tatcat2000
07-02-2010, 09:17 PM
Legal in BCAPL play. While there is not an Applied Ruling in the BCAPL book that deals directly with the shot, the BCAPL definition of "Legal Stroke" gives enough information to cover the situation:

<span style="color: #3333FF">"..."Forward means relative to the cue itself, along the long axis of the cue and away from the butt, and has no relevance to any part of the table or any relationship to the player or any part of the body."</span>[emphasis added]

BCAPL Rules, Diagram 4 also applies. The method has been reviewed by the BCAPL National Office and has been determined to be legal. As noted by Dr.Dave, the "lift" is not legal, and is specifically prohibited in BCAPL play by BCAPL Rule 1.18 and Diagram 5.

WSR is not so specific, referring only to a "forward stroke motion" in WSR 8.2. While many experienced referees, myself included, would rule the method legal, there is plenty of room in WSR for a referee or TD to find reason to declare the method illegal if they are so inclined. Without consulting with the TD before the event, I would say you use the method at your peril.
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Buddy Eick
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jjinfla
07-27-2010, 06:15 PM
I think back around 2000 Karen Corr used a stroke like that in a tournament and nothing was said. I think she brushed the cue ball by moving the cue from left to right, or right to left.
Jake

dr_dave
07-28-2010, 09:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jjinfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think back around 2000 Karen Corr used a stroke like that in a tournament and nothing was said. I think she brushed the cue ball by moving the cue from left to right, or right to left.
Jake </div></div>As long as the cue moves forward into the ball (in addition to any sideways motion), the stroke is legal. It doesn't matter how you hold or support the cue with your hands and the table.

BTW, Mike Shamos had a small article on this topic in the latest issue of BD (or maybe it was two issues ago).

Regards,
Dave

BCA Master Instr
07-28-2010, 03:09 PM
Dr Dave is correct here. Listen to him....

KalboKev
07-30-2010, 07:17 PM
As far as legal shots--here in the Philippines the girls use the wrong end of the cue. There will be a long-reach shot when a person should use a mechanical bridge, but they will lay the cue on the table, hold it at the tip end, and jab the butt into the CB.

It's funny, I've been around the Philippines for 20 some years, and I've never seen a Filipino do it, but Filipina's do.

Chopstick
08-09-2010, 07:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at ways to avoid double hits in these videos, </div></div>

Break and run out the set. Let the other guy worry about it.