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Qtec
07-25-2010, 05:41 AM
link (http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/sen-bernie-sanders-no-oligarchy)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank God there's at least one senator who is speaking sense: </div></div>

Save the rich.

Q

pooltchr
07-25-2010, 07:05 AM
So we have a senator who thinks we would be better off under a more socialist, european system, rather than the American capitalist system.

Big deal, We have a president who thinks the same thing.
You are welcome to do what you want in your country, but why do you find it necessary to encourage us to follow you down the same path? Is it a case of misery loves company? Or do you, loike Obama, just think the US us too big and powerful?

Steve

LWW
07-25-2010, 08:22 AM
Yet you cheer for oligarchy at every turn.

I'm suspicious that you don't even know what the word means.

LWW

Chopstick
07-25-2010, 09:10 AM
I totally disagree with that. It is a perfect example of how violating the constitution has become a matter of regular practice. The government has no right to take money from a family because a family member dies. They frame it like it aimed at the rich but it affects everyone. I may not have but a few thousands of dollars but if I die, it would sure make a difference to my little brother. They have no right to tax money that has already been taxed four times over. I don't care what law they pass. I intend to make sure the government never sees a penny of it.

Lemme give you an example of how these people work. John Kerry votes to raise everyone's taxes every time. Yet he parks his $7 million dollar yacht in Rhode Island instead of his home state to avoid paying taxes on it. He's fine on everyone else paying taxes just not him. His billionaire wife pays less in taxes than I do.

Don't believe any of that crap about tax fairness. You can be sure that any law this congress passes will exempt themselves and their buddies.

Qtec
07-25-2010, 08:51 PM
Its about protecting Democracy. The Death tax is there for a reason.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They frame it like it aimed at the rich but it affects everyone. </div></div>

Rubbish. Did you watch the video?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But, perhaps the most outrageous tax break given to multi-millionaires and billionaires happened this January when the estate tax, established in 1916, was repealed for one year as a result of President Bush's 2001 tax legislation. <span style='font-size: 20pt'>This tax applies only to the wealthiest three-tenths of 1 percent of our population.</span> </div></div>

It doesn't affect everyone. Nowhere near it.


Again.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 400 richest families in America, who saw their wealth increase by some $400 billion during the Bush years, have now accumulated<span style='font-size: 20pt'> $1.27 trillion in wealth. </span><span style='font-size: 20pt'>Four hundred families!</span> During the last fifteen years, while these enormously rich people became much richer their effective tax rates were slashed almost in half. While the highest-paid 400 Americans had an average income of $345 million in 2007, as a result of Bush tax policy they now pay an effective tax rate of 16.6 percent, the lowest on record.



Last year, the top twenty-five hedge fund managers made a combined $25 billion but <u>because of tax policy their lobbyists helped write, they pay a lower effective tax rate than many teachers, nurses and police officers.</u><u> As a result of tax havens in the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and elsewhere, the wealthy and large corporations are evading some $100 billion a year in U.S. taxes. Warren Buffett, one of the richest people on earth, has often commented that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary.</u> </div></div>

Q

pooltchr
07-25-2010, 10:19 PM
So let's think about those 400 families for a minute. What do they do with all that money? Do they go to the mall and buy stuff every day? Probably not. They probably invest it in business that employee other people, hopefully growing their businesses so they can employee even more people.

Who are those families? Let's start with the obvious. Bill Gates. When he dies, should his family inherit the business, or should they be forece to sell it off to pay taxes?

Jerry Jones. When he dies, will the Dallas Cowboys stay in the family, or be sold to pay the taxes?

Let's go one step further. Jerry Jones dies, and his family sells the team for 100 million and ends up paying 55 million in taxes. Now, I am the lucky guy who bought the cowboys...but 10 years later, I die. My kids have to sell the team. They sell the team for 100 million to pay the 55 million in taxes.

The government has collected 110 million in taxes for something that is only worth 100 million.

Do you not see a problem with this?????????????????

Steve

LWW
07-26-2010, 04:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So let's think about those 400 families for a minute. What do they do with all that money? Do they go to the mall and buy stuff every day? Probably not. They probably invest it in business that employee other people, hopefully growing their businesses so they can employee even more people.

Who are those families? Let's start with the obvious. Bill Gates. When he dies, should his family inherit the business, or should they be forece to sell it off to pay taxes?

Jerry Jones. When he dies, will the Dallas Cowboys stay in the family, or be sold to pay the taxes?

Let's go one step further. Jerry Jones dies, and his family sells the team for 100 million and ends up paying 55 million in taxes. Now, I am the lucky guy who bought the cowboys...but 10 years later, I die. My kids have to sell the team. They sell the team for 100 million to pay the 55 million in taxes.

The government has collected 110 million in taxes for something that is only worth 100 million.

Do you not see a problem with this?????????????????

Steve </div></div>

It's far worse than that. The $100M spent to buy the team would have required roughly $175M in income to earn it. That's $75M in taxes already paid because the $100M was after tax money. Now ... with 2 purchase transactions the state would have collected in your scenario:

$75M from the 1st owner prior to purchase.
$55M from the 1st owner's estate.
$75M from the 2nd owner prior to purchase.
$55M from the 2nd owner's estate.
$75M from the 3rd owner prior to purchase.


That's a total of $335M tax on a $100M item.

As to it affecting a fraction of a percent of America ... that is leftist logic gone wild because it views the tax transaction as an event in isolation.

What it ignores is that the $55M times two is enough income to buy an expansion franchise ... which would employ thousands of concessions people, ushers, ticket takers, parking lot attendants, players, coaching staff, management. All of this would require that a new stadium be built ... with new parking lots ... and new restaurants ... and a blighted neighborhood restored.

Instead, true progress is flushed into the black hole of gubmint waste.

LWW

llotter
07-26-2010, 05:35 AM
And worse still is when the spouse inherits a fortune it gets taxed again and then again as succeeding generations fall victim the stupid politicians with police power. Taking from the productive for the benefit of the counter-productive is not the rules we should be following if we want to compete and win in world markets.

LWW
07-26-2010, 06:19 AM
Yet another good example.

Let's review further in depth.

Billionaire earns $1,750,000,000.00 to achieve a net worth of $1,000,000,000.00

Death taxes take 55% so $450,000,000.00 is left. The state has collected $1,350,000,000.00.

Spouse dies a few years later and the state takes 55% of the $450,000,000.00 she inherited ... leaving $202,500,000.00 for the kids and the state has collected $1,547,500,000.00.

The next generation pays 55% at their demise leaving $91,125,000.00 while the state has collected $1,658,875,000.00 in taxes.

The spouse again passes in a few years leaving the grandchildren with $41,006,250.00 and the state has collected $1,708,993,750.00.

By the time the grandkids and their spouses have passed the estate has shrank to $8,303,765.63 while the state has collected $1,741,696,234.38 ... or <span style='font-size: 11pt'>99.5255%</span> of the original earned fortune. Plus taxes on any interest or other income the estate would have generated in the next century.

Assuming 2 kids per generation ... by the third generation the estate would be spliced 16 ways, or $518,985.35 each. Assuming inflation of 3% ... very optimistic ... the third generation would have received an adjusted estate value of $24,679.06.

IOW ... by the third generation following, the state would have made paupers of the descendants of a great capitalist.

The truly sad part is that the far left would have us believe that they still aren't paying their fair share.

LWW

Qtec
07-26-2010, 06:50 AM
myths (http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=PB&pubid=384)

link (http://www.factcheck.org/article328.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Contrary to ad's claim that "your family" might be crippled, the vast majority of families actually are not affected by the estate tax. In fact, less than 3 percent of deceased adults in 2002 had estates subject to the tax, according to the nonpartisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center and figures from the IRS.

And though the ad focuses on family farms and businesses, the truth is that very few actually pay the estate tax. The Tax Policy Center projects that roughly 440 taxable estates were primarily made up of farm and business assets in 2004.

And even considering estates for which farming or business was a sideline, the Center found only 7,090 taxable estates for 2004 that included any farm or business income. That's still just 38 percent of all taxable estates. The fact is that repealing the estate tax entirely, as the ad advocates, would benefit mostly non-farmers and non-business-owners.

The ad would have been accurate had it said that "some families" are affected.

"Cost Them Everything?"

Far from imposing tax bills on farms and businesses that "cost them everything," the average estate tax paid by all farm and business estates in 2004 was just under 20 percent of the value of the estate, according to calculations by the Tax Policy Center.

The effective rate was far less for smaller estates. Of the 440 taxable family farm and business estates in 2004, t<u>wo out of five paid an average rate of only 1.6 percent.</u> These were taxable estates valued at less than $2 million.Very large estates valued at over $20 million paid at an average effective rate of just over 22 percent, a hefty tax bite but well short of "everything." </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Myth No. 2: Average families are taxed twice.

The estate tax is indeed a kind of double tax on wealthy families, because income or other taxes may have already been paid on money or assets that are then taxed again at death.

But most families get a big tax windfall when someone dies and passes assets on to heirs. That's because of a tax break known as a step-up in basis.

Essentially, the property and most investments in an estate get a new value for tax purposes when someone dies. It's this value that the heirs use to determine their taxable profit when the property or investments are sold.

* Want more? Follow MSN Money on Twitter

Here's how it works. Say your folks paid $20,000 for a house that was worth $200,000 on the day your last parent died. Without the step-up, you'd have to pay capital gains tax on that $180,000 increase in value if you sold the property. Thanks to the step-up, however, the house gets a new basis of $200,000. If you sold it for $200,000, you wouldn't owe any capital gains tax.

Estates get this special tax bonus whether or not they pay any estate tax. For the vast majority of people, that means the increase in value of their estates never gets taxed, either when they die or when the property they bequeath to others is ultimately sold.

The bottom line: The current estate tax system benefits far more families than it penalizes. </div></div> more myths destroyed (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/PlanYourEstate/5-estate-tax-myths-that-wont-die.aspx)

Q


Q

llotter
07-26-2010, 07:54 AM
Did you ever notice that as government works to manipulate the economy and citizen behavior through tax and social legislation, the 'problem' they are trying to correct gets worse? This is not mere coincidence, it is a essential result of such intrusion. Do you not see that there are more wealthy people today and they disparity is greater than ever before? Occasionally the government gets a windfall from this tax but most often, the wealthy use effective tax planning to avoid these taxes. Even the folks of minimum intelligence should see that it is the wealthy that gets the politician elected and they also get the laws written to favor themselves...hence the corruption of power for all to see.

LWW
07-26-2010, 07:56 AM
You should look up more ... you'd see some of the things flying over your head.

LWW

eg8r
07-26-2010, 09:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its about protecting Democracy. The Death tax is there for a reason. </div></div>Since you forgot to state in your own opinion what this "reason" is, let me give you mine...The reason for the death tax is for greedy liberals to get their hands on the hard earned money of those unfortunate to pass on and give it to the non-earners in an effort to secure their vote in the next election.

eg8r

LWW
07-26-2010, 10:12 AM
It's amazing how many people can't wrap their collectivist heads around the fact that democracy is inherently evil.

LWW

Chopstick
07-26-2010, 01:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It doesn't affect everyone. Nowhere near it.

Q </div></div>

I am aware that is what they said. I am also aware that they are lying. That is not what the law says. It is anything over a million. That would cover a sizable portion of small businesses not to mention farms. If you own a small business with 3 million in assets, your brother owes 1 million in taxes when you die.

Qtec
07-26-2010, 10:33 PM
What did you learn in school ? Not much European history I suspect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason for the death tax is for greedy liberals to get their hands on the hard earned money of those unfortunate to pass on and give it to the non-earners in an effort to secure their vote in the next election. </div></div>

The reason for the estate tax is to preserve Democracy and to keep the power in the hands of the people.
Right now in the USA you have millionaires and billionaires running for office claiming to want to represent joe 6 pack's interests in DC!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This year more billionaires are in politics for the 2010 mid-term election and the money is flowing into each side’s campaign coffers. Why are so many billionaires getting into politics this year?

According to Forbes magazine there are 1,011 billionaires running around on earth at the moment. When it comes to women it is whittled down to <span style='font-size: 17pt'>only 14 who earned it rather than received an inheritance....

Meg Whitman who’s claim to fame is the internet bidding portal Ebay to sell everyday junk, did well for herself in the dot com bubble and is running for Governor of California in this year’s mid-term election.

Why billionaires get into politics is due to the fact that they can buy votes and therefore buy their way into top positions of power to protect their own wealth.. </span></div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Billionaires stepping out to run for political office in Florida</span>

First it was Texas and California, then New Jersey and New York, and now Florida: Sunshine State voters, brace for bazillionaires gunning for public office.

On Friday, billionaire Palm Beach real estate investor Jeff Greene, who was already very rich when he made $800 million by betting the housing bubble would burst, jumped into Florida’s topsy-turvy U.S. Senate race as a Democrat.

Three weeks ago, megamillionaire Rick Scott of Naples, who made a fortune running a hospital chain that admitted to fleecing Medicare out of $1.7 billion, filed to run for governor as a Republican.

Scott and Greene intend to spend a lot of their own money — “whatever it takes,” Greene said Friday — to win over voters who may be excused if they don’t know either from Adam. </div></div>

Money is power and when too much money is concentrated in a small amount of people, Democracy is threatened. Its happening now.

You want to give them more power.

Q

LWW
07-27-2010, 01:06 AM
The USA is not a democracy, it is a republic, and democracy is an inherently evil form of government.

LWW

Qtec
07-27-2010, 04:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">democracy is an inherently evil form of government. </div></div>

If you believe that then you are un-American.

What other system of Govt do you suggest?

Q

LWW
07-27-2010, 04:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">democracy is an inherently evil form of government. </div></div>

If you believe that then you are un-American.

What other system of Govt do you suggest?

Q </div></div>

Can you show me where the USA is ... or ever was ... a democracy? What's that? You can't?

The USA is a republic and a nation of laws.

A democracy was IMHO best described by Benjamin Franklin ... "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on who's for dinner."

If I mail you a book on US history would you actually read it?

LWW

LWW
07-27-2010, 04:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy is the road to socialism."
-Karl Marx-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear."
-lan Coren-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
-Oscar Wilde-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."
-John Marshall-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty."
-Fisher Ames- </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson-</div></div>

LWW

Qtec
07-27-2010, 04:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What other system of Govt do you suggest?

Q
</div></div>

Answer.......silence. The big mouth has finally been silenced. LOL


What system of Govt do you have?

Answer. A democratic system.


If the USA is against democracy, why does it go around the world, interfering in other nations affairs trying to spread democracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 20pt'>Bush Calls Democracy Terror's Antidote</span>

By Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 9, 2005; Page A16

President Bush said yesterday a fledgling democratic movement that he sees spreading through the Middle East is essential to defeating terrorism, and warned Syria and Iran against thwarting the "momentum of freedom" and fomenting instability in the region. </div></div>

You have just been owned.


Q

LWW
07-27-2010, 04:59 AM
Remember ... start looking up. It's all floating up there just above your head.

LWW

pooltchr
07-27-2010, 07:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What system of Govt do you have?

Answer. A democratic system.



Q </div></div>

Nope! We have a representative republic, not a democracy.

Use your google skills and see if you can understand the difference.

Steve

Stretch
07-27-2010, 09:33 AM
Yes we know the difference between Democracy and a Republic. Then why have your succesive governments been touting "Democracy" as the cure of all evil rather than saying we are selling Republicanism? Isn't this a tadd hypocritical? Or is it that you have more in common with the Peoples REPUBLIC of China than your letting on. With a 400 billion dollar a year trade deficit you sure like thier stuff. St.

LWW
07-27-2010, 09:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes we know the difference between Democracy and a Republic. Then why have your succesive governments been touting "Democracy" as the cure of all evil rather than saying we are selling Republicanism? Isn't this a tadd hypocritical? Or is it that you have more in common with the Peoples REPUBLIC of China than your letting on. With a 400 billion dollar a year trade deficit you sure like thier stuff. St. </div></div>

My guess is that the average national politician is every bit the dolt of the average US citizen who has been victimized by federally ran education.

That's why thinking people want to starve the federal beast down to size and return to the republic specified by our constitution.

BTW ... the PRC is also a republic, just not a very good one. Have you ever read their constitution? Of course you haven't.

&gt;&gt;&gt;HERE&lt;&lt;&lt; (http://www.usconstitution.net/china.html) it is if you want to see how the folks admired by so many in the Obamao regime think a republic should be set up.

LWW

pooltchr
07-27-2010, 09:56 AM
I can't explain why some people continue to refer to our form of government as a democracy. All I can do is point out the error when people make that mistake.

And if you look at our history, our republic has done very well over time, although when we started to move away from it, allowing the government to grow beyond the limits established by the constitution, and start growing various entitlement programs funded by ever increasing taxes, that is when we start to see thing deteriorate.

Government has a legitimate function. But our founding fathers knew that it needed to be limited, or it would eventually grow out of control. It appears that their fears were well founded.

Steve

Stretch
07-27-2010, 11:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy is the road to socialism."
-Karl Marx-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear."
-lan Coren-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
-Oscar Wilde-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."
-John Marshall-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty."
-Fisher Ames- </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson-</div></div>

LWW </div></div>

Since i know how much you love quotes......

The Monorchy unites us; the Republic would divide us. Francesco Crispi

The Government of the German Democratic Government Republic rejects secret policies. It works for the people, and only the people, so it does not need to keep secrets like the warmongers. Walter Ulbricht

The weapon of the Republic is terror, and virtue is it's strength. Georg Buchner

This is a case if the President is permitted to be above the law, then we no longer have a Republic. James Bovard

The American Republic will endure untill the day Congres discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville

St.

eg8r
07-27-2010, 12:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What did you learn in school ? Not much European history I suspect.
</div></div>Well considering my post had nothing to do with European history I am guessing you are changing the subject because you can't refute what I posted.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason for the estate tax is to preserve Democracy and to keep the power in the hands of the people.</div></div>In other words, steal from the few and give to the masses so they will keep voting you in office. Thank you for proving me correct.

As far as Rick Scott being mentioned, he seems to be getting thrashed in the advertisments. He is against abortions but he has been getting rich off them for years.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Money is power and when too much money is concentrated in a small amount of people, Democracy is threatened. Its happening now.
</div></div>Isn't that a line of bull. But maybe you are on to something...Obama the Thug was able to raise more money than Cheney and bought his way into office. I agree it has been downhill ever since.

eg8r

eg8r
07-27-2010, 12:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you believe that then you are un-American.

What other system of Govt do you suggest? </div></div>Why would that make you un-American? The US is not a democracy, it is only the idiots that think it is.

eg8r

eg8r
07-27-2010, 12:10 PM
LOL, you really are the village idiot. LOL, you asked me about my knowledge of European history, maybe you should a little time learning about Government.

eg8r

eg8r
07-27-2010, 12:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why have your succesive governments been touting "Democracy" as the cure of all evil rather than saying we are selling Republicanism?</div></div>To be honest I think it is because the majority of Americans don't know the difference. You can go to any school and ask them who Justin Bieber is and they will tell you, but ask them who their elected representatives are and you will get the deer in headlights response.

eg8r

LWW
07-27-2010, 02:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy is the road to socialism."
-Karl Marx-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear."
-lan Coren-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
-Oscar Wilde-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."
-John Marshall-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty."
-Fisher Ames- </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson-</div></div>

LWW </div></div>

Since i know how much you love quotes......

The Monorchy unites us; the Republic would divide us. Francesco Crispi<span style="color: #FF0000">A statist who believed in oligarchy and largely was similar to Mussolini in Italian politics.</span>

The Government of the German Democratic Government Republic rejects secret policies. It works for the people, and only the people, so it does not need to keep secrets like the warmongers. Walter Ulbricht<span style="color: #FF0000">[/color]

The weapon of the Republic is terror, and virtue is it's strength. Georg Buchner[color:#FF0000]A Marxist statist who thrived behind the irojn curtain.</span>

This is a case if the President is permitted to be above the law, then we no longer have a Republic. James Bovard<span style="color: #FF0000">A libertarian who is obviously warning us about the rise of a dearest leader type.</span>

The American Republic will endure untill the day Congres discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville <span style="color: #FF0000">Which was a warning against practicing democracy.</span>

St. </div></div>

Well ... you have finally learned how to google, kudos.

LWW

Stretch
07-27-2010, 02:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy is the road to socialism."
-Karl Marx-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear."
-lan Coren-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
-Oscar Wilde-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."
-John Marshall-</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty."
-Fisher Ames- </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson-</div></div>

LWW </div></div>

Since i know how much you love quotes......

The Monorchy unites us; the Republic would divide us. Francesco Crispi<span style="color: #FF0000">A statist who believed in oligarchy and largely was similar to Mussolini in Italian politics.</span>

The Government of the German Democratic Government Republic rejects secret policies. It works for the people, and only the people, so it does not need to keep secrets like the warmongers. Walter Ulbricht<span style="color: #FF0000">[/color]

The weapon of the Republic is terror, and virtue is it's strength. Georg Buchner[color:#FF0000]A Marxist statist who thrived behind the irojn curtain.</span>

This is a case if the President is permitted to be above the law, then we no longer have a Republic. James Bovard<span style="color: #FF0000">A libertarian who is obviously warning us about the rise of a dearest leader type.</span>

The American Republic will endure untill the day Congres discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville <span style="color: #FF0000">Which was a warning against practicing democracy.</span>

St. </div></div>

Well ... you have finally learned how to google, kudos.

LWW </div></div>

Well you'd be gagged without it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Qtec
07-27-2010, 04:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Well considering my post had nothing to do with European history I am guessing you are changing the subject because you can't refute what I posted.</div></div>

I'm not refuting it. What I am saying is there is a good reason for it. You don't listen.






Q

Stretch
07-27-2010, 10:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes we know the difference between Democracy and a Republic. Then why have your succesive governments been touting "Democracy" as the cure of all evil rather than saying we are selling Republicanism? Isn't this a tadd hypocritical? Or is it that you have more in common with the Peoples REPUBLIC of China than your letting on. With a 400 billion dollar a year trade deficit you sure like thier stuff. St. </div></div>

My guess is that the average national politician is every bit the dolt of the average US citizen who has been victimized by federally ran education.

That's why thinking people want to starve the federal beast down to size and return to the republic specified by our constitution.

BTW ... the PRC is also a republic, just not a very good one. Have you ever read their constitution? Of course you haven't.

&gt;&gt;&gt;HERE&lt;&lt;&lt; (http://www.usconstitution.net/china.html) it is if you want to see how the folks admired by so many in the Obamao regime think a republic should be set up.

LWW
</div></div>

Well i don't know about that, there are some good things in it like....

No laws or administrative or local rules and regulations may contravene the Constitution.

No organization or individual is privileged to be beyond the Consitution or the Law.

In the States right now it is widely accepted as fact that you have a two tiered system. One for the Rich and privilaged, and one for everyone else as far as "justice" go or in the application of "law". In a true Republic this would not be the case.

It seems that money and power have steadily erroded the application of your Constitution. As writen it's a very noble and well meaning document but in practice in this day and age it's well......practicaly unrecognizable. Canadian systems are much the same in regards to this pandering to the rich and privilaged in the application of Law, in healthcare, and education. Bottom line is that they can afford the best of everything and it's there for them to have if they choose to. Where we differ it seems is this "Cult of Celebrity" that exists down there. Our "well off" and upper Class are far more modest and unasuming and we tend to shun and avoid the lime light and decadence. There's lots of millionairs around here but you'd never know it. They don't drive flashy cars, wear expensive suits, or hang out at exclusive country clubs. Their kids attend the same schools everyone else does and they see the same doctors we do. OK maybe in the big citys some do but everywhere else pfft, we let them hang with us if they don't get too upidy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

So China, you, and us and Europe have all evolved to address our own particular circumstances but i don't necessarily agree that one is inherently worse then another. China for instance has to cope with 1 billion 400 million people which is like 20% of the worlds population. There has to be rules.....

Canada on the other hand only has a poultry 34 million, yet we occupy the second largest Country in the world, and the largest in the Americas and the Western Hemisphere. Lots of elbow room, so our politics have always been more conciliatory, cooporative, and sensative to regional differences. With the exception of the french ( i guess we've all had our differences with them ) lol but we worked them out and gave them a whole Province.

Ummmmm, what was the question? St.

LWW
07-28-2010, 05:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems that money and power have steadily erroded the application of your Constitution. As writen it's a very noble and well meaning document but in practice in this day and age it's well......practicaly unrecognizable.</div></div>

You are close to an epiphany.

The right in America wish to force the government back to the principles of this noble document.

The left in America wishes to ignore it when inconvenient, wrap themselves in it when it advances the agenda, and in general continue the march away from this noble document to an oligarchical society.

I know which side I support.

LWW

Qtec
07-28-2010, 06:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The left in America wishes to ignore it when inconvenient, </div></div>

Give me one example from the Clinton admin ignoring the USCON.

Right off the top of my head I think I could name at least 3 from the Bush admin.

Bush tapped phones without a warrant.
He read millions of emails and totally ignored the US citizens right to privacy.
Habeas Corpus?
The right to a speedy trial.
The right not to be tortured.
etc etc.

The truth is, GW TRASHED the rights of the American citizen and you guys said 'you have to give up some rights to be safe.'


Q

The ACLU who fight to protect the rights enshrined in the USCON are regularly trashed by the RW. How come?

pooltchr
07-28-2010, 06:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Canada on the other hand only has a poultry 34 million, yet we occupy the second largest Country in the world, and the largest in the Americas and the Western Hemisphere. Lots of elbow room, so our politics have always been more conciliatory, cooporative, and sensative to regional differences. With the exception of the french ( i guess we've all had our differences with them ) lol but we worked them out and gave them a whole Province.

Ummmmm, what was the question? St.



</div></div>

Eventually, we will invade Canada just to give us some more of that elbow room. We're just waiting for global warming to kick in. Nobody down here wants to deal with your winters!!!
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Steve

Stretch
07-28-2010, 08:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Canada on the other hand only has a poultry 34 million, yet we occupy the second largest Country in the world, and the largest in the Americas and the Western Hemisphere. Lots of elbow room, so our politics have always been more conciliatory, cooporative, and sensative to regional differences. With the exception of the french ( i guess we've all had our differences with them ) lol but we worked them out and gave them a whole Province.

Ummmmm, what was the question? St.



</div></div>

Eventually, we will invade Canada just to give us some more of that elbow room. We're just waiting for global warming to kick in. Nobody down here wants to deal with your winters!!!
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Steve </div></div>

We'll trade you Quebec for Florida. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

LWW
07-28-2010, 09:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The left in America wishes to ignore it when inconvenient, </div></div>

Give me one example from the Clinton admin ignoring the USCON.

Right off the top of my head I think I could name at least 3 from the Bush admin.

Bush tapped phones without a warrant.
He read millions of emails and totally ignored the US citizens right to privacy </div></div>

1 - Bush was most assuredly not "RIGHT WING" by any sane definition.

2 - You can't remember things about Clinton because the party tells you not to remember them.

3 - I've posted this here and on AZB numerous times ... and nary a leftist has ever spoke out about it:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">60 MINUTES

Television Broadcast February 27, 2000

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>ECHELON; WORLDWIDE CONVERSATIONS BEING RECEIVED BY THE ECHELON SYSTEM MAY FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS AND INNOCENT PEOPLE MAY BE TAGGED AS SPIES</span>

STEVE KROFT, co-host:

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it's run by the National Security Agency and four English-speaking allies: Canada, Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand.</span>

The mission is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Echelon's computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world.</span>

How does it work, and what happens to all the information that's gathered? A lot of people have begun to ask that question, and some suspect that the information is being used for more than just catching bad guys.

(Footage of satellite; person talking on cell phone; fax machine; ATM being used; telephone pole and wires; radio towers)

KROFT: (Voiceover) We can't see them, but the air around us is filled with invisible electronic signals, <span style='font-size: 11pt'>everything from cell phone conversations to fax transmissions to ATM transfers. What most people don't realize is that virtually every signal radiated across the electromagnetic spectrum is being collected and analyzed.</span>

How much of the world is covered by them?

Mr. MIKE FROST(Former Spy): The entire world, the whole planet--covers everything. Echelon covers everything that's radiated worldwide at any given instant.

KROFT: Every square inch is covered.

Mr. FROST: Every square inch is covered.

(Footage of Frost; listening post)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Mike Frost spent 20 years as a spy for the CSE, the Canadian equivalent of the National Security Agency, and he is the only high-ranking former intelligence agent to speak publicly about the Echelon program. Frost even showed us one of the installations where he says operators can listen in to just about anything.

Mr. FROST: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Everything from--from data transfers to cell phones to portable phones to baby monitors to ATMs...</span>

KROFT: Baby monitors?

Mr. FROST: Oh, yeah. Baby monitors give you a lot of intelligence.

(Footage of listening posts)

KROFT: (Voiceover) This listening post outside Ottawa is just part of <span style='font-size: 14pt'>a network of spy stations, which are hidden in the hills of West Virginia</span>, in remote parts of Washington state, even in plain view among the sheep pastures of Europe.

This is Menwith Hill Station in the Yorkshire countryside of Northern England. Even though we're on British soil, Menwith Hill is an American base operated by the National Security Agency. It's believed to be the largest spy station in the world.

(Footage of Menwith Hill Station; aerial footage of NSA headquarters; supercomputers)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Inside each globe are huge dishes which intercept and download satellite communications from around the world. The information is then sent on to NSA headquarters at Fort Meade, Maryland, where acres of supercomputers scan millions of transmissions word by word, looking for key phrases and, some say, specific voices that may be of major significance.

Mr. FROST: <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Everything is looked at.</span> The entire take is looked at. And the computer sorts out what it is told to sort out, be it, say, by key words such as 'bomb' or 'terrorist' or 'blow up,' to telephone numbers or--or a person's name. And people are getting caught, and--and that's great.

(Footage of National Security Agency; Carlos the Jackal; two Libyans in court)

KROFT: (Voiceover) The National Security Agency won't talk about those successes or even confirm that a program called Echelon exists. But it's believed the international terrorist Carlos the Jackal was captured with the assistance of Echelon, and that it helped identify two Libyans the US believes blew up Pan-Am Flight 103.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>Is it possible for people like you and I, innocent civilians, to be targeted by Echelon?</span>

Mr. FROST: <span style='font-size: 20pt'>Not only possible, not only probable, but factual.</span> While I was at CSE, a classic example: A lady had been to a school play the night before, and her son was in the school play and she thought he did a--a lousy job. Next morning, she was talking on the telephone to her friend, and she said to her friend something like this, 'Oh, Danny really bombed last night,' just like that. The computer spit that conversation out. The analyst that was looking at it was not too sure about what the conversation w--was referring to, so erring on the side of caution, he listed that lady and her phone number in the database as a possible terrorist.

KROFT: This is not urban legend you're talking about. This actually happened?

Mr. FROST: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Factual. Absolutely fact. No legend here.</span>

(Vintage footage of Fonda; Spock; King; congressional hearing; the Capitol building)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Back in the 1970s, the NSA was caught red-handed spying on anti-war protesters like Jane Fonda and Dr. Benjamin Spock, and it turns out they had been recording the conversations of civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King in the 1960s. When Congress found out, it drafted strict, new laws prohibiting the NSA from spying on Americans, but today, there's enough renewed concern about potential abuses that Congress is revisiting the issue.

Representative BOB BARR (Republican, Georgia): (From C-SPAN) One such project known as Project Echelon engages in the interception of literally millions of communications involving United States citizens.

(Footage of Barr; NSA sign; Goss and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) But even members of Congress have trouble getting information about Echelon. Last year, the NSA refused to provide internal memoranda on the program to Porter Goss, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

What exactly was it that you requested?

Representative PORTER GOSS (Chairman, House Intelligence Committee): Well, I can't get too specific about it, but there was some information about procedures in how the NSA people would employ some safeguards, and I wanted to see all the correspondence on that to make sure that those safeguards were being completely honored. At that point, one of the counsels of the NSA said, 'Well, we don't think we need to share this information with the Oversight Committee.' And we said, 'Well, we're sorry about that. We do have the oversight, and you will share the information with us,' and they did.

(Footage of Goss and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) But only after Goss threatened to cut the NSA's budget. He still believes, though, that the NSA does not eavesdrop on innocent American citizens.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>If the NSA has capabilities to screen enormous numbers of telephone calls, faxes, e-mails, whatnot, how do you filter out the American conversations, and how do you--how can you be sure that no one is listening to those conversations?</span>

Rep. GOSS: We do have methods for that, and I am relatively sure that those procedures are working very well.

(Footage of Madsen; epic.org Web site; Amnesty International gathering; Greenpeace members in a boat; Princess Diana)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Others aren't so sure. Wayne Madsen works with a group called the Electronic Privacy Information Center, which is suing the NSA to get a copy of the documents that were finally turned over to Congressman Goss. Madsen, a former naval officer who used to work for the NSA, is concerned about reports that Echelon has listened in on groups like Amnesty International and Greenpeace. Last year, the NSA was forced to acknowledge that it had more than 1,000 pages of information on the late Princess Diana.

Mr. WAYNE MADSEN (Electronic Privacy Information Center): Princess Diana, in her campaign against land mines, of course, was completely at odds with US policy, so her activities were of tremendous interest to--to the US policy-makers, of course, and--and, therefore, to the National Security Agency eavesdroppers.

KROFT: Do you think the--the NSA only monitored her conversations that involved land mines?

Mr. MADSEN: Well, when NSA extends the big drift net out there, it's possible that they're picking up more than just her conversations concerning land mines. What they do with that intelligence, who knows?

(Footage of newspaper headlines; Menwith Hill Station)

KROFT: (Voiceover) In the early 1990s, some of Diana's personal conversations, as well as those of some others associated with the royal family, mysteriously appeared in the British tabloids. Could some of those conversations have been picked up by that US spy station in England?

Mr. MADSEN: (Voiceover) There's been some speculation that Menwith Hill may have been involved in the intercepts of those communications as--as well.

And how--how could that be legal? Well, British intelligence could say, 'Well, we didn't eavesdrop on members of the British royal family. These happened to be conducted by, you know, one of our strategic partners.' And, therefore, they would skirt the--skirt the British laws against intercepts of communications.

(Footage of National Security Agency sign)

KROFT: (Voiceover) The US admits it often shares intelligence with its allies, but never to get around the law.

Mr. FROST: Never, Steve, will governments admit that they can circumvent legislation by asking another country to do for them what they can't do for themselves. They will never admit that. But that sort of thing is so easy to do. It is so commonplace.

KROFT: Do you have any first-hand experience?

Mr. FROST: I do have first-hand experience where CSE did some dirty work for Margaret Thatcher when she was prime minister. She...

KROFT: What kind of dirty work?

Mr. FROST: Well, at the time, she had two ministers that she said, quote, "They weren't on side," unquote, and she wanted to find out, not what these ministers were saying, but what they were thinking. So my boss, as a matter of fact, went to McDonald House in London and did intercept traffic from these two ministers. The British Parliament now have total deniability. They didn't do anything. They know nothing about it. Of course they didn't do anything; we did it for them.

(Footage of Newsham and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) One of the few people to acknowledge that they have listened to conversations over the Echelon system is Margaret Newsham, who worked at Menwith Hill in England back in 1979. She had a top secret security clearance.

So who--you--you knew that conversations were being pulled off satellites.

Ms. MARGARET NEWSHAM: Yes. But to my knowledge, all it was going to be would be like Russian, Chinese or, y--you know, foreign.

(Footage of Newsham)

KROFT: (Voiceover) But soon, she says, she discovered it wasn't only the Russians and the Chinese who were the targets.

Ms. NEWSHAM: I walked into the office building and a friend said, 'Come over here and listen to--to this thing.' And--and he had headphones on, so I took the headphones and I listened to it, and--and I looked at him and I'm going, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>'That's an American.' And he said, 'Well, yeah.'</span>

KROFT: And it was definitely an American voice?

Ms. NEWSHAM: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>It was definitely an American voice, and it was a voice that was distinct. And I said, 'Well, who is that?' And he said it was Senator Strom Thurmond. And I go, 'What?'</span>

KROFT: Do you think this kind of stuff goes on?

Mr. FROST: Oh, of course it goes on. Been going on for years. Of course it goes on.

KROFT: You mean the National Security Agency spying on politicians in...

Mr. FROST: Well, I--I...

KROFT: ...in the United States?

Mr. FROST: Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? Sounds like the world of fiction. It's not; not the world of fiction. That's the way it works. I've been there. I was trained by you guys.

Rep. GOSS: Certainly possible that something like that could happen. The question is: What happened next?

KROFT: What do you mean?

Rep. GOSS: It is certainly possible that somebody overheard me in a conversation. I have just been in Europe. I have been talking to people on a telephone and elsewhere. So it's very possible somebody could have heard me. But the question is: What do they do about it? I mean, I cannot stop the dust in the ether; it's there. But what I can make sure is that it's not abused--the capability's not abused, and that's what we do.

KROFT: Much of what's known about the Echelon program comes not from enemies of the United States, but from its friends. Last year, the European Parliament, which meets here in Strasbourg, France, issued a report listing many of the Echelon's spy stations around the world and detailing their surveillance capabilities. The report says Echelon is not just being used to track spies and terrorists. It claims the United States is using it for corporate and industrial espionage as well, gathering sensitive information on European corporations, then turning it over to American competitors so they can gain an economic advantage.

(Footage of report; plane; report; Raytheon sign; Ford and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) The European Parliament report alleges that the NSA 'lifted all the faxes and phone calls' between the European aircraft manufacturer Airbus and Saudi Arabian Airlines, and that the information helped two American companies, Boeing and McDonnell Douglas, win a $ 6 billion contract. The report also alleges that the French company Thomson-CSF lost a $ 1.3 billion satellite deal to Raytheon the same way. Glen Ford is the member of the European Parliament who commissioned the report.

Mr. GLEN FORD (European Parliament Member): It's not the--if you want, the Echelon system that's the problem. It's how it's being used. Now, you know, if we're catching the bad guys, we're completely in favor of that, whether it's you catching the bad guys, us or anybody else. We don't like the bad guys. What we're concerned about is that some of the good guys in my constituency don't have jobs because US corporations got an inside track on--on some global deal.

(Footage of encryption machine; Clinton and several men walking; Ford)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Increasingly, European governments and corporations are turning to something called encryption, a system of scrambling phone, fax or e-mail transmissions so that the Echelon system won't be able to read them. The US is worried about the technology falling into the hands of terrorists or other enemies. The Clinton administration has been trying to persuade the Europeans to give law enforcement and intelligence agencies a key with which they can unlock the code in matters of national security. Glen Ford, the European parliamentarian, agrees it's a good idea, in principle.

Mr. FORD: However, if we are not assured that that is n--not going to be abused, then I'm afraid we may well take the view, 'Sorry, no.' In the United Kingdom, it's traditional for people to leave a key under the doormat if they want the neighbors to come in and--and do something in their house. Well, we're neighbors, and we're not going to leave the electronic key under the doormat if you're going to come in and steal the family silver.

KROFT: Y--you said that you think that this is basically a good idea, that we have to do this at some...

Mr. FROST: Oh, in a perfect world, we would not need the NSA, we would not need CSE. But, you know, we have to. We have to in the areas of terrorism, drug lords. We--we'd be lost without them. My concern is no accountability and nothing--no safety net in place for the innocent people that fall through the cracks. That's my concern.

KROFT: Accountability isn't the only issue that's of interest to Congress. There is growing concern within the intelligence community that encryption and the worldwide move to fiber-optic cables, which Echelon may not be able to penetrate, will erode the NSA's ability to gather the intelligence vital to national security. The agency is looking for more money to develop new technologies. </div></div>

&gt;&gt;&gt;OH DEAR&lt;&lt;&lt; (http://cryptome.org/echelon-60min.htm)

LWW