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warped cue
07-29-2010, 02:36 PM
I use the 9 ball to practice my anemic draw stroke. I noticed somehow I am pulling up on my stroke & hitting in the yellow stripe on the 9 ball. The chalk is not in the white near the bottom of the 9 where my aim is. Any clue as to what I am doing wrong in my stroke? Thanks!

SpiderMan
07-29-2010, 02:47 PM
Remember, you tip only strikes at the centerpoint of your aim on center-ball shots - shots which, regardless of cue elevation, are aimed directly through the 3-dimensional geometric center of the cueball.

Because of the curvature of the ball and non-zero diameter of the tip, the contact point will always be higher than the aim point on a draw shot. In other words, some point on the upper half of the tip is what actually touches the cueball first, and this contact on the ball will be higher than the centerline of your cue.

But if it's more than a few millimeters off, you may very well be failing to return the tip to your aimpoint on the final stroke.

In shooting stance, gradually ease your tip up to the cueball. Have someone else observe where the initial strike would actually be if your return stroke were accurate.

SpiderMan

pooltchr
07-29-2010, 02:56 PM
Spiderman is correct. The only time we make contact with the middle of the tip, is when we are shooting center ball.

Another possibility to consider is you may be lining up to contact the cue ball in one place, but upper arm movement in your stroke can cause the point to change. If you drop your upper arm/elbow drops during your stroke, you could be pushing the tip upward.

Steve

warped cue
07-29-2010, 04:03 PM
hmmm..sounds like my elbow is dropping on the stroke forcing the tip up to a center ball hit. That make sence to me. Any way to correct this?

pooltchr
07-29-2010, 05:35 PM
Yes. Don't drop your elbow! LOL

The pure pendilum stroke is a staple of the fundamentals we teach in pool school. It's a little hard to describe with words, but basically, you only want the part of your arm between your elbow and your grip hand moving during your stroke. It should swing back and forth like a pendilum on a clock. When done properly, your grip hand is probably going to end up coming to rest in the side of your chest.

If you have someone to help, have them stand beside you and lay a cue stick across your back, and inside the bend of your elbow. Take your stroke to it's natural finish on the forward stroke and see where your hand stops. That point will be where you want your hand to end up on most every stroke.

Steve

dr_dave
07-29-2010, 05:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: warped cue</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the 9 ball to practice my anemic draw stroke. I noticed somehow I am pulling up on my stroke & hitting in the yellow stripe on the 9 ball. The chalk is not in the white near the bottom of the 9 where my aim is. Any clue as to what I am doing wrong in my stroke? Thanks! </div></div>FYI, lots of advice and possible explanations for what is happening for you, supported by video demonstrations, can can be found here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/draw.html#advice

Good luck,
Dave

cushioncrawler
07-29-2010, 07:19 PM
It takes lots and lots of time/shots to learn to draw well. Its best to uze a meezel ball (red dots).

Uze pencil to draw lines and marks on the ball. Then u look for your qtip chalk-mark on the qball, relativ to thems pencil marks, to see where u are hitting. I allways used to hit 1mm or 2mm left of center.

The dotty ball tells u what sort of nonintentional spin u are getting too. I uzually get a bit or a lot of nonintentional left spin.
U shood experiment with stroke etc to try to get the dotty ball to kum back "pure".

Re hitting low, i aim (ie set up) very low on the qball, or below the qball even.
If u are getting too many misscues then u are aiming too low. If u are getting zero misscues, then u aint aiming low enuff.
I like it when, when i misscue, the qball flys straight, ie rather then flying left or right.

U shood hav a standard test for praktising etc draw. I place the qball on the baulk line, and the red a comfortable dist ahead, aligned straight up the table, the qball skrewing back onto the baulk cushion and then out past the baulk line.
I am happy if i can get the qball to bounce out past the center of the table (12' table here).
If i can get the qball to reech the pyramid spot (pink spot in snooker), ie 3/4 point of table, i am extatik.
Just once, i got the qball to reech the top cushion. Not eezy to do on a slowish bedcloth.

Az i say, thats my standard praktis routine. If the dotty qball kums straight back and straight out, ie with zero side-spin, and gets up near the center of the table, i am happy.
U havta quickly grab the returning red to stop it hitting the qball.
mac.

Nachoooooo
07-30-2010, 12:11 PM
I believe that the question you should be addressing first is how much time are you willing to put into changing your stroke. How long you have been playing and are set in your ways is a huge factor you must consider when addressing this issue... it takes alot to be able to break down your stroke and start over if you have picked up bad habbits over a long period of time. Most people move up on thier stroke when aimming ... if you watch many of the top palyers they usually aim to the felt when drawing the ball ... if you learn how to adapt your aim to "YOUR" natural stroke you wont have to fight it as much. Although if you are a beginner player then you might look at trying to correct what you are doing wrong... GL

warped cue
07-31-2010, 08:47 AM
My draw is getting better now that I am watching my elbow drop. Thanks for all the great advice guys!

Rich R.
08-01-2010, 06:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: warped cue</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My draw is getting better now that I am watching my elbow drop. Thanks for all the great advice guys! </div></div>
If I can add my 2 cents, in addition to watching the elbow drop, be sure to keep your stroke as smooth as possible and stroke all the way through the ball.

bradb
08-04-2010, 07:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: warped cue</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the 9 ball to practice my anemic draw stroke. I noticed somehow I am pulling up on my stroke & hitting in the yellow stripe on the 9 ball. The chalk is not in the white near the bottom of the 9 where my aim is. Any clue as to what I am doing wrong in my stroke? Thanks! </div></div>

Rich, here's my 2 cents:

I've have found that if I put on a good pro pool match DVD and study their stroke action as they play I'm back playing well again.

I think that its more our state of mind on how we approach the game that sometimes leads us away from technique.

I watched a very good chinese pro (Yang) play nine racks of flawless pool in the early rounds of the US open. His style is close to my own so it really helped to me "lock in" his technique as I watched only his stroke action as he played.

When it was over I went down to the table and tied to emulate his same smooth stroke action and pace. Instantly I started hitting the ball better again... it was like a refresher course. After about an hour I began to slide back into some of my old bad habits, so I quit and did'nt go back to the table until I had that stroke embedded in my mind again.

I think that when we get down its best to focus on "our entire game" not just any one aspect, that way we don't get bogged down in details which usually makes it worse. It's damn hard to pot a ball when you're focusing on your elbow or stance or any of the dozens of mechanics in your stroke


-Brad

cushioncrawler
08-06-2010, 02:40 AM
Last week i took out all of my cues, and tryd to see which were good for draw/skrew.
Snooker (ie billiards) cues mostly, ie for a 12' table, ie 9mm and 10mm and 11mm, about 20 cues in all -- 2-1/15" balls (142gm).

The winner woz, i am afrayd to say, a $25 (13mm) maple 18oz sneaky pete (that i got from theusofa off ebay), with a nicely rounded (dime????) one-piece brown leather tip (triangle????).
Beat all of the others first shot -- NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
mac.

JoeW
08-06-2010, 04:52 AM
The angle of attack is often different when you shoot of the rail relative to having your bridge hand on the cloth. Might want to check the differences.
When you can play a draw shots with the cue ball in the middle of the table you can often get lower with a level cue stick than you can from other places on the table. Perhaps these issues are having an effect.

JJFSTAR
08-06-2010, 07:33 AM
I suggest watching this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqqakiKbhHI&feature=player_embedded

Fran Crimi
08-06-2010, 08:53 AM
Warped, there is a technique to successfully dropping your elbow. Yes, it can result in an extremely effective power draw, but it takes a combined motion of both the upper and lower arms at the same time. You can't just drop your elbow and leave your lower arm in the same position. That will definitely cause the cue tip to raise up. But if you learn how to adjust the lower part of your arm and hand as you drop your elbow ( I call it for lack of a better term --- flattening it out), it can be extremely effective. That's why you see many of the top players doing it, including Mike Massey.

It's tricky, though, and can take the average player right out of his or her comfort zone.

KellyStick
08-06-2010, 11:13 AM
My draw was lousy and inconsistent. A key that helped me a lot was this. When setting up for a draw shot. Line up on your CB and put the tip almost right on the ball where you want to make contact. Then, make sure your arm is at the very bottom of the pendulum stroke or straight down. Anything before or after this Bottom Dead Center will cause the tip to either be above or below your aiming point because of the pendulum effect. When I draw I always have to choke back on the butt of my stick. My normal stroke is more forward which causes my arm to be past BDC at CB contact. You can also get closer or farther away from the CB without changing where you grip the stick. On a straight non english shot where I am only controlling speed primarily I find this to have little impact. On a draw shot I find this to make a huge difference both in ease of draw and consistency. I've told a few others this and both thanked me a lot. Scott Lee is the one that taught me.

Main point. Be sure stroke is at BDC when the tip contacts the CB when you are trying to draw or otherwise put a strong spin on the ball. This works for other english as well.

warped cue
08-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Thanks Fran & Kelly! I will try both of these out & see what happens. My nip draw is good for about 5-8 inches depending on how hard I punch it. One time when I punched it real hard it was about 18 inches of draw. Thats good for me anyway. I will keep working to see if I can do better.

bradb
08-06-2010, 12:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: warped cue</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Fran & Kelly! I will try both of these out & see what happens. My nip draw is good for about 5-8 inches depending on how hard I punch it. One time when I punched it real hard it was about 18 inches of draw. Thats good for me anyway. I will keep working to see if I can do better. </div></div>

It does'nt take a lot of power, hold the cue loose in your palm and shoot your regular speed. It'll come back all you want, its control and follow thru not force.

bradb
08-06-2010, 12:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Last week i took out all of my cues, and tryd to see which were good for draw/skrew.
Snooker (ie billiards) cues mostly, ie for a 12' table, ie 9mm and 10mm and 11mm, about 20 cues in all -- 2-1/15" balls (142gm).

The winner woz, i am afrayd to say, a $25 (13mm) maple 18oz sneaky pete (that i got from theusofa off ebay), with a nicely rounded (dime????) one-piece brown leather tip (triangle????).
Beat all of the others first shot -- NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
mac. </div></div>

Mac are you playing Aussie 8ball? Brad

cushioncrawler
08-06-2010, 08:15 PM
No i hav never played 8Ball league. But ballarat haz a strong 8Ball league. About 5 divisions.
Some 8Ball players here play very good snooker here, and billiards.
They uze an 8mm tip for 8Ball, koz iz a 2" ball and 7' (pub) table.
And then they uze the same 8mm cue for snooker and billiards (2-1/16" ball) on a 12' table.

I just then tryd the 13mm on some 1-7/8" balls and the draw woz great. Funny, u can still misscue if u aim too low.
mac.

bradb
08-07-2010, 12:31 PM
I was in england a while back and tried out one of those tight little 8ball tables, the pockets were even smaller than a Riley snooker table. It was a real challenge to put together a run.

The cues on the rack were all over the map from narrow all the way up to 13mm. I tried both the small and the wide tips and I found I could draw back just as well or even better with the 13mm. It felt clumsy but it worked just fine.

I did'nt get into a game with any of the locals, the tight pockets were no problem for them. Brad

dr_dave
08-08-2010, 09:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... if you learn how to adjust the lower part of your arm and hand as you drop your elbow ( I call it for lack of a better term --- flattening it out), it can be extremely effective. That's why you see many of the top players doing it, including Mike Massey.</div></div>Fran and others,

Check out this video of Mike Massey's power draw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg

Do you guys think he is getting much power from his elbow drop? To me, his power stroke looks very "pendulum-like" (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#pendulum) (i.e., not very "piston-like") until the elbow drop that occurs well after the cue ball is gone. It almost looks like the elbow is dropped partly in response to the flex of the cue resulting from the grip going up and the tip going down during the pendulum follow-through. The large elbow drop at the end of the stroke almost looks like an "after thought" to me.

I think Mike's power is due mostly to his his strength, his fast-twitch muscle fibers, and his relaxed grip. I think he could achieve the same power with a pure pendulum stroke with no elbow motion (before or after contact).

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Dave

bradb
08-08-2010, 12:17 PM
Dave Its clear he is getting power as the shaft is bent on the tables surface and he's taking a long backswing.

Its all such a controlled effort that the power is hidden, but for a normal table length draw I think he would need little of that power with the smooth action he's getting.

Brad

warped cue
08-08-2010, 12:26 PM
Thanks for posting that Dave! This guy is way out of my league! Gosh he is awesome!

Fran Crimi
08-08-2010, 05:39 PM
Dave, that video isn't a good example because Mike stands very erect. In order for an erect player to get that kind of power he must flick his wrist. Mike's elbow is actually already in a dropped position at start due to his height at the table compared to a player who stands lower to the shot.

dr_dave
08-08-2010, 08:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, that video isn't a good example because Mike stands very erect.</div></div>I think that's typical for Mike.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In order for an erect player to get that kind of power he must flick his wrist.</div></div>I think his wrist flexes back due to the significant forward acceleration of the forearm. There doesn't seem to be a strong or pronounced "flick" forward ... to me anyway. Do you or others think he is getting significant power from the wrist motion, or is the wrist more along for the ride? It does seem important to keep the grip and wrist relaxed for power, which Mike seems to do well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike's elbow is actually already in a dropped position at start due to his height at the table compared to a player who stands lower to the shot.</div></div>That's a good point. Having his body more erect probably does allow more power to be delivered by the muscles involved with elbow flexion. However, he does drop the elbow significantly after the forward, pendulum-like stroke.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
08-09-2010, 04:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, that video isn't a good example because Mike stands very erect.</div></div>I think that's typical for Mike. <span style="color: #000099">Absolutely. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In order for an erect player to get that kind of power he must flick his wrist.</div></div>I think his wrist flexes back due to the significant forward acceleration of the forearm. There doesn't seem to be a strong or pronounced "flick" forward ... to me anyway. Do you or others think he is getting significant power from the wrist motion, or is the wrist more along for the ride? It does seem important to keep the grip and wrist relaxed for power, which Mike seems to do well. <span style="color: #000099">There is no question that Mike's wrist flick is giving him additional speed/power. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike's elbow is actually already in a dropped position at start due to his height at the table compared to a player who stands lower to the shot.</div></div>That's a good point. Having his body more erect probably does allow more power to be delivered by the muscles involved with elbow flexion. However, he does drop the elbow significantly after the forward, pendulum-like stroke. <span style="color: #000099"> That significant elbow drop that you see long after Mike strikes the ball is simply Mike's way of coming to rest. This is a wrist flick shot, which is why I stated before that it's not a good example of an elbow dropping during the stroke.</span>

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

bradb
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Dave, Fran,

It is hard to say if Mike is just keeping his wrist flexible or is actually adding power to the his swing with a wrist flick. Personally I think since he is taking such a long backswing his wrist bends as a function of the pivot and the power is coming from the arm as a whole. But there probably is an extra little push from the wrist at the moment of contact. I think only Mike can clear up as to how much.

The butte of the cue looks to be rising up about 3 to 4" off the horizontal on the back swing then returns to position on contact. How much of this is arm lift, or because of the camera's angle and position the motion is exagerated, is also hard to say. The only way to be sure is to reshoot this shot from a perfect side on position.

Bambu
08-20-2010, 08:47 AM
If you have a slow but powerful stroke, you probably won't draw very well. Draw is more about speed than power. Most players I see that have trouble are trying too hard, and hitting too hard. If you generate enough cue speed, the power will automatically be there(because power is a function of speed).

bradb
08-22-2010, 11:30 AM
The question was does Mike get his power from his whole stroke or more from a last second snap of the wrist. I was noting that it is hard to tell from the video, but it appears that its all from a flexible arm motion. Brad

cushioncrawler
08-22-2010, 05:54 PM
Mike duz uze (a bit of) wrist. I got better skrew (speed) when i uzed every muscle i kood -- wrist, hand, arm (ie elbow drop), shoulder.
Allso, i got more speed when i held the cue in the tips of my fingers/thumb -- ie longer lever -- Mike duz.
Elbow-drop iz good -- especially if u go to a very long backswing -- plus of course elbow-up on the backswing.
mac.

bradb
08-24-2010, 01:20 PM
That pretty well describes the shot in the video Mac. Thats probably bang on.

-Brad

cushioncrawler
08-24-2010, 07:10 PM
Mike holding the stick allmost with tips of fingers inkreeces the leverage, but it especially inkreeces the leverage for wrist aktion.
Mike duznt seem to hav a lot of wrist aktion, but there iz more then first appears.
Anyhow, fingertip-grip beats hamfisted-grip (for power), even for me.

I just then tryed some long dist skrew uzing 3 cues with different balance points.
The best for me, with todays style, woz my new old 3 piece, with a 4-1/2oz joint about 12" from the tip, ie noze-heavy.
The red went in the hole, and the meezle ball came back pure.
mac.

bradb
08-25-2010, 06:32 PM
I once got a QB to pull back 2 long rails purely by accident.

I had missed my shape entirely and out of sheer exasperation, took a long backstroke and threw my cue at the QB! ... I was'nt even down on the shot... it was a give up shot actually... but it pocketed the ball then shot back like a bullet the length of the table, hit the end rail then bounced all the way back down to the opposite rail!

I thought... how in the hell did I do that?

It was all arm action... I didn't flip my wrist or anything, I had caught it just right and thats all it took, just a smooth, low, power hit.

I think that because I was more standing up on the shot it helped with the power follow through.

I have never been able to do that again. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Fran Crimi
08-26-2010, 06:38 AM
With all due respect, Brad, I think you're missing something in your description which may be why you haven't been able to do it again.

Fran

Deeman3
08-26-2010, 10:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bradb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> just a smooth, low, power hit.

</div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

bradb
08-26-2010, 02:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all due respect, Brad, I think you're missing something in your description which may be why you haven't been able to do it again.

Fran </div></div>

I may not have explained it well Fran, what I know is that my whole arm was a snapping motion, not just the wrist. When I said "by not being able to do it again" was that I've never been able to get that much draw back, I'm scared of hitting off the table with that much force.

Actually all of us can pull it back like that off the break with a clean low hit, the action is the same. Brad

Deeman3
08-26-2010, 03:37 PM
Brad,

One of the reasons the ball comes back off the break so much easier is the backing of all the other balls in the cluster.

I still think the maximum draw for us mortals is low, smooth and that velocity that "seems" to be accellerating through the cue ball at impact.

bradb
08-26-2010, 05:50 PM
You're right Deeman, I was just using that as an example of how to achieve the same effect. When power shooting only one ball as resistance the hit has to be really clean or its "hit the deck!... Incoming!" So control is everything.

Those massive trick shots look great but even the top players don't always make the ball.