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View Full Version : mosque madness....as seen from abroad.



Qtec
08-27-2010, 05:28 AM
link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/26/ground-zero-animation_n_696112.html?ir=Comedy)

Q

Gayle in MD
08-27-2010, 07:29 AM
Right when we finally had a President who was building approval of our country around the world, this disgrace comes along, and andn provides power to the very U.S. slander which terrorists use against us.

G.

Deeman3
08-27-2010, 07:50 AM
The terroriests use everything against us, no matter what we do here. They are not rational people and just because we have arguments over legal and social issues, is not a cause of excuse for their insane actions. Oh! The Americans didn't jump for joy at us building a house of worship at the 9/11 sight, let's stone a few women and then bomb another city in Pakistan! It does not really work that way.

They are disfunctional people, like the few crazy abortion clinic bombers or the environmental terrorists who will set fire to a business, just in much larger numbers.

If you think what we do in our open debate in a relatively free society drives much of the insane terrorist activities then they have got you thinking about every move you make, every act of free speech we see.

Does the fact that we allow our women to run around with bare heads bother them? Sould we not cover them up and, perhaps, stop letting our little girls go to school? Pretty soon, you can PC yourself into anything. We almost have in many areas.

Gayle in MD
08-27-2010, 08:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The terroriests use everything against us, no matter what we do here. They are not rational people and just because we have arguments over legal and social issues, is not a cause of excuse for their insane actions.


Where did I make any excuses for the insane actions of terrorists? No where.


Oh! The Americans didn't jump for joy at us building a house of worship at the 9/11 sight, let's stone a few women and then bomb another city in Pakistan! It does not really work that way.


There is a vast difference between jumping for joy over a relligious center, dedicated to speaking against radical terrorism, and building a bridge of religious understanding, blocks away from Ground Zero, standing behind the principles of our own Constitution, Religious Freedom, for all. This organiztion is as much against the radicals in their religion, as we are. We should support their goals, not condemn them for them.

They are disfunctional people, like the few crazy abortion clinic bombers or the environmental terrorists who will set fire to a business, just in much larger numbers.

Do you really think I don't know that????

If you think what we do in our open debate in a relatively free society drives much of the insane terrorist activities then they have got you thinking about every move you make, every act of free speech we see.

Actually, I think that there are two sides to every story, and also think that it is those people who harbor all of the hate against all Muslims, who have allowed their actions to infiltrate their own reasoned thinking. Using fear and division, Building social unrest, Among Americans, and allowing radical Muslims to have the power to move America away from it's basic constitutional principles, including religious freedom, plays right into the hands of terrorists

Does the fact that we allow our women to run around with bare heads bother them?

Deeman, you know, I like you, but really, "Allow" LOL. Please.


Should we not cover them up and, perhaps, stop letting our little girls go to school?

"We" who is "we". Where have I made any such suggesions? NO where.


Pretty soon, you can PC yourself into anything. We almost have in many areas. </div></div>

Well, I think there is a vast difference between being PC, and standing firmly behind the principles of our Constitution, regardless of what a bunch of radical, insane terrorists do and think, but it isn't very smart, IMO, to play right into their hands, and adopt hateful racist strategies, against all Muslims, for the actions of a small number of them, which actually would be an act that supported their hateful ideology and slander which they use against the US.

Also, I notice that people from the right pull out that PC arrow whenever Liberals take a stand against hate, opression, and racism, but use it themselves whenever one of their own fringe, does something completely irrational.

Not aiming that at you, BTW.

IMO, our constitutional assurances of religious freedom, applies to all religions, is the lynchpin of why the Founders came here, and what they most had in mind when they wrote the Constitution.

I'm really rather tired of watching the Constitution slashed up by racist, homophobic, misogynistic people, who seem to want to twist it's meaning. The Constitution clearly states, religious freedom for all. Does it not. Principles are the The Hallmark of reasoned thinking, not emotions...

Plenty of Muslim Americans have died for this country, died on 9/11, and nearly died defending us in the Middle East. How do you justify denying them of the same rights which white Christian Men enjoy.

Same thing when it comes to abortion, how does any American deny women the right to control their own body as fully as any man does.

How do you deny African Americans, the same right to save their money, and buy a home in any neighborhood in America, without being discriminated against by bannk owners??? or any Jew, or any Athiest????

Principles aren't up for the folly of automatic emotional responses, neither is our Constitution, or the rights insured for all Americans, within it.

Building hate against ALL Muslims, without taking into consideration that all Muslims did not attack us on 9/11, only nineteen of them did so.

All Muslims do no hate America.

All Muslims do not attack others over religious ideology.

And given the festering religious battles going on all over the world, between various nutty religious fundamentalists, and right here in America, I think this is a very important time to line oneself up behind equal rights for all Americans. That absolutely nothing to do with PC, it has to do with protecting the Constitution of the United States Of America, equal rights for all, not using sexual or religious, or gender discrimination, and haeful rhetoric, as a political football, to gin up more hate, and exploit it for ppolitical purposes.

Now I have addressed each of your points, would you like to address each of mine?


G.

Deeman3
08-27-2010, 09:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The terroriests use everything against us, no matter what we do here. They are not rational people and just because we have arguments over legal and social issues, is not a cause of excuse for their insane actions.


Where did I make any excuses for the insane actions of terrorists? No where.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Never said you did. Nut there is a big difference in disagreeing with location of the Mosque and not allowing it by law. We have suggested that it is insensitive to build it there, not illegal. Where in the consitution does it say we can't offer our opinion? </span>


Oh! The Americans didn't jump for joy at us building a house of worship at the 9/11 sight, let's stone a few women and then bomb another city in Pakistan! It does not really work that way.


There is a vast difference between jumping for joy over a relligious center, dedicated to speaking against radical terrorism, and building a bridge of religious understanding, blocks away from Ground Zero, standing behind the principles of our own Constitution, Religious Freedom, for all. This organiztion is as much against the radicals in their religion, as we are. We should support their goals, not condemn them for them.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> There is substancial evidence that they ( the radical Muslims will point to this as a sign of victory over the U.S. but, again, I don't know anyone wanting to outlaw it's construction or placement there. </span>

They are disfunctional people, like the few crazy abortion clinic bombers or the environmental terrorists who will set fire to a business, just in much larger numbers.

Do you really think I don't know that????

If you think what we do in our open debate in a relatively free society drives much of the insane terrorist activities then they have got you thinking about every move you make, every act of free speech we see.

Actually, I think that there are two sides to every story, and also think that it is those people who harbor all of the hate against all Muslims, who have allowed their actions to infiltrate their own reasoned thinking. Using fear and division, Building social unrest, Among Americans, and allowing radical Muslims to have the power to move America away from it's basic constitutional principles, including religious freedom, plays right into the hands of terrorists

<span style="color: #FF0000"> There are very few people harboring hate against all Muslims. Just becasue some disagree with the Mosque, does not mean they hate all Muslims. As I have said in the past, if Muslims were hated on such a large scale in this country, the few incidents we see of Muslims being atttacked would be much larger. You just see big hate for Muslims in any questioning of anything they do. It is in your defensive character to always say this. It is not true any more than we hate all of any culture or people. </span>

Does the fact that we allow our women to run around with bare heads bother them?

Deeman, you know, I like you, but really, "Allow" LOL. Please.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Well, are not many Muslims against this? Even most moderate Muslims. If you feel the overwealming majority of Muslims treat women in a positive fashion, maybe you should look closer at some of those moderate groups and countries. </span>


Should we not cover them up and, perhaps, stop letting our little girls go to school?

"We" who is "we". Where have I made any such suggesions? NO where.


<span style="color: #FF0000"> Well, we if you think "our" actions such as limiting free speech on the Mosque site is too much for the MUslim community to handle! </span>

Pretty soon, you can PC yourself into anything. We almost have in many areas. </div></div>

Well, I think there is a vast difference between being PC, and standing firmly behind the principles of our Constitution, regardless of what a bunch of radical, insane terrorists do and think, but it isn't very smart, IMO, to play right into their hands, and adopt hateful racist strategies, against all Muslims, for the actions of a small number of them, which actually would be an act that supported their hateful ideology and slander which they use against the US.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again, you pretent there is some vast movement to outlaw the placement of the Mosque. There is not. No one I am aware of is saving it is not legal but in this country it may still be legal to oppose it on the grounds of how you view the subject without calling everyone racist or playing on the fear of the terrorists not approving of our desent. </span>

Also, I notice that people from the right pull out that PC arrow whenever Liberals take a stand against hate, opression, and racism, but use it themselves whenever one of their own fringe, does something completely irrational.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Most of us condemn irrational acts and behaviour such as violence against anyone. That "people on the right" is a catch-all for everyone not agreeing with the left and is playing pretty thin even to the people in the middle right now. Everyone is accountable for thier own actions, not of the most crazy on the fringes. This used to work but another strategy is needed as the excuses are rapidly falling away. </span>

Not aiming that at you, BTW.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Thank-you. </span>

IMO, our constitutional assurances of religious freedom, applies to all religions, is the lynchpin of why the Founders came here, and what they most had in mind when they wrote the Constitution.

I'm really rather tired of watching the Constitution slashed up by racist, homophobic, misogynistic people, who seem to want to twist it's meaning. The Constitution clearly states, religious freedom for all. Does it not. Principles are the The Hallmark of reasoned thinking, not emotions...

Plenty of Muslim Americans have died for this country, died on 9/11, and nearly died defending us in the Middle East. How do you justify denying them of the same rights which white Christian Men enjoy.

I do not deny them these rights. If I question the judgement and wisdom of an action, I do not infringe on their rights unless I try to use force or illegal means to keep then form those right. This is so simple, you gotta get this.


Same thing when it comes to abortion, how does any American deny women the right to control their own body as fully as any man does.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Do you think me or the average American deny women these rights more or as much as the average Muslim? I support the rights of women to abortion but my dislike of it is my constitutional right, if they have not changed that lately!</span>

How do you deny African Americans, the same right to save their money, and buy a home in any neighborhood in America, without being discriminated against by bannk owners??? or any Jew, or any Athiest????

<span style="color: #FF0000"> I have done this? It seems right now, that many are losing those homes that they achieved the right to buy, regardless of income. If we had denied that right, this could not be happening. You must see somehting form the 1960's that i just don'tsee. I was aa kid back then and did not make home ownership decisoons for certain. Are "WE" now doing this? If so, I have a gay neighbor I'd better get busy moving out of my community. Gayle, this is silly on som many levels. You go from, if you don't agree they should marry, to you hate them in oine quick step. This is not rational. You should know that!</span>

Principles aren't up for the folly of automatic emotional responses, neither is our Constitution, or the rights insured for all Americans, within it.

Building hate against ALL Muslims, without taking into consideration that all Muslims did not attack us on 9/11, only nineteen of them did so.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again, look at the record of attacks on Muslims in this country since 9/11. In no other country would they be as safe as they are here. </span>

All Muslims do no hate America.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Who says they do? </span>

All Muslims do not attack others over religious ideology.

<span style="color: #FF0000">No, but many more than 19 are trying. </span>

And given the festering religious battles going on all over the world, between various nutty religious fundamentalists, and right here in America, I think this is a very important time to line oneself up behind equal rights for all Americans. That absolutely nothing to do with PC, it has to do with protecting the Constitution of the United States Of America, equal rights for all, not using sexual or religious, or gender discrimination, and haeful rhetoric, as a political football, to gin up more hate, and exploit it for ppolitical purposes.

<span style="color: #FF0000">You are just over the top here. We have long ago aligned ourselves with the equal rights of all. Many of us have fought for that. Your trying a play any question as an assault on these rights is not a valid argument seeing that the vast majority of us are not asking that any rights be taken from anyone. You are seeing boogiemen where they simply don't live. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </span>

Now I have addressed each of your points, would you like to address each of mine?

<span style="color: #FF0000"> I think I did. </span>


G. </div></div>

Gayle in MD
08-27-2010, 11:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The terroriests use everything against us, no matter what we do here. They are not rational people and just because we have arguments over legal and social issues, is not a cause of excuse for their insane actions.


Where did I make any excuses for the insane actions of terrorists? No where.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Never said you did. Nut there is a big difference in disagreeing with location of the Mosque and not allowing it by law. We have suggested that it is insensitive to build it there, not illegal. Where in the consitution does it say we can't offer our opinion? </span>

<span style="color: #000099">I'd say that denying them to build it where ever they choose, just like any other relgious organization is allowed to do, is to deny them the seam rights as other religioons. But most of what I am seeing on the news regarding this effort to deny it, is dangerous, hateful, radical people, who are acting as though their war is against Islam, not just terrorists, and it will be an enforcement for more of the nutty behavior, for the twenty percent of people in our country, who are not stable, to slice up taxie drivers, and who know who else, just because they are dark complected, and sound foreign.l There is where I believe, this sort of diecrimination, and demonizing, which is surely going on, is dangerous, and does not take us into rational ground. </span>


Oh! The Americans didn't jump for joy at us building a house of worship at the 9/11 sight, let's stone a few women and then bomb another city in Pakistan! It does not really work that way.


There is a vast difference between jumping for joy over a relligious center, dedicated to speaking against radical terrorism, and building a bridge of religious understanding, blocks away from Ground Zero, standing behind the principles of our own Constitution, Religious Freedom, for all. This organiztion is as much against the radicals in their religion, as we are. We should support their goals, not condemn them for them.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> There is substancial evidence that they ( the radical Muslims will point to this as a sign of victory over the U.S. but, again, I don't know anyone wanting to outlaw it's construction or placement there.

I don't know what you would call it. These sorts of clashes usually end up in court, and are settled by the law, do they not? </span>

They are disfunctional people, like the few crazy abortion clinic bombers or the environmental terrorists who will set fire to a business, just in much larger numbers.

Do you really think I don't know that????

If you think what we do in our open debate in a relatively free society drives much of the insane terrorist activities then they have got you thinking about every move you make, every act of free speech we see.

Actually, I think that there are two sides to every story, and also think that it is those people who harbor all of the hate against all Muslims, who have allowed their actions to infiltrate their own reasoned thinking. Using fear and division, Building social unrest, Among Americans, and allowing radical Muslims to have the power to move America away from it's basic constitutional principles, including religious freedom, plays right into the hands of terrorists

<span style="color: #FF0000"> There are very few people harboring hate against all Muslims.


<span style="color: #000066">IMO, there are too few speaking out against that very thing. Neither of us can be sure of how much hate there is behind it, but IMO, it has been ginned up by RW shock jocks, non stop. People are acting as though any and all Muslims, are a threat, regardless of how much they are against the radical elements in our society. </span>

Just becasue some disagree with the Mosque, does not mean they hate all Muslims. As I have said in the past, if Muslims were hated on such a large scale in this country, the few incidents we see of Muslims being atttacked would be much larger. You just see big hate for Muslims in any questioning of anything they do.

<span style="color: #000066">Then I suppose you think the radical right hasn't tried to discredit President Obama, and accuse him of bing a Muslim, by ginning up fear and hate for the word, Muslim?

Anyway, it's not just me, Deeman, we are all seeing nothing but more and more hatred aimed at Muslims. You can deny that, but I see it growing. That isn't good, which is my point.

The point is, religious discrimination, is wrong, and unconstitutional. If it is a location where there would be no problem in building any other church, then it is religious discrimination. It is dangerous to gin up hatred, and I believe, we've already seen some of those kinds of dangerous results. </span>



It is in your defensive character to always say this. It is not true any more than we hate all of any culture or people. </span>

<span style="color: #000066">There is an anti Muslim ideology behind all of the anti Mosque outrage. You can deny it, if you like, but it's there. That, in and of itself, is discrimination. And yes, I do always take my stand against discrimination, of any kind, against any group when it see that they are being demonized, although they, themselves, have done nothing wrong, and are simply trying to live their own lives, under the protections of our Constitution. I also think there is a big difference between discussing various opinions, and supporting a movement which seeks to demonize and discriminate, suppress, or limit their rights for anny reason. </span>

Does the fact that we allow our women to run around with bare heads bother them?

Deeman, you know, I like you, but really, "Allow" LOL. Please.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Well, are not many Muslims against this? Even most moderate Muslims. If you feel the overwealming majority of Muslims treat women in a positive fashion, maybe you should look closer at some of those moderate groups and countries.

I do think the overwhelming number of Muslim men, mistreat and degrade all women. that is why I believe the moderate Muslims should be supported, if their goal is to destroy that kind of thinking, within their religious fundamentalists, just as I think Baptists, Catholics, and Christians, in general, shoud take a stand against those who demonize women, gays, or any other group. I think they fail in that regard, just as much as Muslims fail.</span>


Should we not cover them up and, perhaps, stop letting our little girls go to school?

"We" who is "we". Where have I made any such suggesions? NO where.


<span style="color: #FF0000"> Well, we if you think "our" actions such as limiting free speech on the Mosque site is too much for the Muslim community to handle! </span>

<span style="color: #000066">I saw plenty of hate going on there. You didn't? Hard to believe. I think those who were protesting, seek to discriminate against Muslims. You can try to float this idea that there is no growing hatred against all Muslims, but I do not agree. Just as you can say that it's only a group of people, exercising their freedom of speech, while they're standing there blaming all Muslims, for the actions of a few, but my point is that we either have religious freedom here, or we don't.

The very act of demonstrating against that Mosque, is discrimination, and goes against freedom of religion. They wouldn't be there if the center was going to be a Catholic Center, but Catholic priests have behaved horrendously, ruined many more lives overall than were lost on 9/11, I'd say, and the Catholic church, has failed completely to address it properly, and in fact, covered it up for decades. Do they get to build where ever they can afford to buy land?

Just as Melman wouldn't have been the Chairman of the Bush re-election committee, or the Republican spokessman, if he had told the truth about who is was, and is, back then. Why? Becasue the Republiocan Party stands against equal rights for gays.do you call that reational? Seems to me you have supported that discrimination, in the past.</span>

Pretty soon, you can PC yourself into anything. We almost have in many areas. </div></div>

Well, I think there is a vast difference between being PC, and standing firmly behind the principles of our Constitution, regardless of what a bunch of radical, insane terrorists do and think, but it isn't very smart, IMO, to play right into their hands, and adopt hateful racist strategies, against all Muslims, for the actions of a small number of them, which actually would be an act that supported their hateful ideology and slander which they use against the US.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again, you pretent there is some vast movement to outlaw the placement of the Mosque. There is not.

<span style="color: #000066">LOL, you pretend that having 70% of Americans charging president Obama with being a Muslim, has nothing to do with having a large number of Americans, who believe that if he were, which he isn't, just being a Muslim/American would make him a dangerous President. Come on!

Don't try to tell me there is no hate behind the growing ideology against all Muslims. It exists. I do not pretend a damned thing. The polls prove what I am sayiing. I saw a bunch of radical, frightened people out there afraid of a damned building!!! I don't consider that rational, at all. </span>


No one I am aware of is saving it is not legal but in this country it may still be legal to oppose it on the grounds of how you view the subject without calling everyone racist or playing on the fear of the terrorists not approving of our desent. </span>

<span style="color: #000066">LOL, well that's certainly a different twist, with added accusations, wich have nothing at all to do with the principles which I was addressing. I don't call everyone, a terrorist, and IMO, fear has been used for political purposes, by Republicans, more than any other group in our country. As I clearly stated, ginning up fear against any ethnic, gender, or relilgious group, whether they are gay, Muslim, African, is wrong. You say there were just a bunch of reasonable people, with a cause, exercising their freedom of speech, I saw a bunch of people, full of hate, blaming a whole religious group, for the actions of a few from their radical fringe. </span>

Also, I notice that people from the right pull out that PC arrow whenever Liberals take a stand against hate, opression, and racism, but use it themselves whenever one of their own fringe, does something completely irrational.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Most of us condemn irrational acts and behaviour such as violence against anyone. That "people on the right" is a catch-all for everyone not agreeing with the left and is playing pretty thin even to the people in the middle right now. Everyone is accountable for thier own actions, not of the most crazy on the fringes.

<span style="color: #000066">I was speaking about the radical right wing fringes of the right, obviously, and I firmly disagree with you, that any group is not responsible to speak out against hate within their group.

The people in this country should be honorable enough to speak against racist, sexists, homophobic, or misogynist actions and statements, always, and particularly the leaders of any group who includes a fringe element which foments hate, fear and unconstitutional behavior. I surely did n't see any of that c oming from Republicans, and in fact, I saw and heard them lie about what they saw on the Capital Steps, when I saw radical nutjobs, completely out of control, spreading hate lies and slander right in front of them. Taking a stand against what is wrong, is a duty. It is the lynchpin of a free democracy, IMO.We can never all agree about right and wrong, that's why we have a Constitution.</span>
This used to work but another strategy is needed as the excuses are rapidly falling away. </span>

<span style="color: #000066">I don't see the act of supporting the Constitutional gaurantees, equally, for all groups, and all Americans, as being any kind of excuse. </span>

Not aiming that at you, BTW.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Thank-you. </span>

IMO, our constitutional assurances of religious freedom, applies to all religions, is the lynchpin of why the Founders came here, and what they had most on their minds when they wrote the Constitution.

I'm really rather tired of watching the Constitution slashed up by racist, homophobic, misogynistic people, who seem to want to twist it's meaning. The Constitution clearly states, religious freedom for all. Does it not. Principles are the The Hallmark of reasoned thinking, not emotions...

Plenty of Muslim Americans have died for this country, died on 9/11, and nearly died defending us in the Middle East. How do you justify denying them of the same rights which white Christian Men enjoy.

I do not deny them these rights. If I question the judgement and wisdom of an action, I do not infringe on their rights unless I try to use force or illegal means to keep then form those right. This is so simple, you gotta get this.

<span style="color: #000066">You seek to deny them their rights, the minute you single them out as not being allowed to do the same things that ny other religious group is allowed to do. I can't believe you don't see that. As for legal, or illegal, these things end up in court...don't pretend there is no law involved, because the law always gets involved when Americans disagree over what is fair and unfair. </span>


Same thing when it comes to abortion, how does any American deny women the right to control their own body as fully as any man does.

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Do you think me or the average American deny women these rights more or as much as the average Muslim?

<span style="color: #000066">I think that radical fundamentalist religious men in any and all of the traditional religious sects, from Baptist, straight through to Muslims, discriminate against women. Rape and kill women, and justify all of it in their minds. Do you know the statistics on rape and murder of women in this country, by men? Where did it start? Some of it right in the Christian Bible. I will give you this, the number of fundamentalist Muslim men in the Middle East, use the worst kind of terror and violence against their women of any religious group. Plenty of other men, in all religious groups, here and everywhere else, abuse women, all over the world, including right here. IOW, rape, murder, and violence, is rape, murder and violence, regardless of which religious nutjobs are fomenting it.</span>


I support the rights of women to abortion but my dislike of it is my constitutional right, if they have not changed that lately!</span>


<span style="color: #000066">Then we are on the same page. I don't "Like" abortion, no one does, I just don't think what another woman chooses, if any of my business.


I don't support those who get on the television, and condemn abortion doctors, and call them killers, any more than I would support any political party, which uses it as a divisive tool, or tries to demonize those women who choose it.

That's one reason why I would never vote for a Republican, because IMO, they are as bad as Jerry Falwell, and their failure to speak against all of the hate mongering nutjob pundiits, like Limpballs, and Beck, show me that they have no honor.</span>

How do you deny African Americans, the same right to save their money, and buy a home in any neighborhood in America, without being discriminated against by bank owners??? Or any Jew, or any Athiest????

<span style="color: #FF0000"> I have done this? It seems right now, that many are losing those homes that they achieved the right to buy, regardless of income. If we had denied that right, this could not be happening. You must see somehting form the 1960's that i just don'tsee. I was aa kid back then and did not make home ownership decisoons for certain. Are "WE" now doing this? If so, I have a gay neighbor I'd better get busy moving out of my community. Gayle, this is silly on som many levels. You go from, if you don't agree they should marry, to you hate them in oine quick step. This is not rational. You should know that!</span>

<span style="color: #000066">Dee, you go from denying that there were hateful actions going on in NYC, to suggesting it was just freedom of speech!

You deny that the Tea Party Demonstrations, weren't to some degree racist.

You deny that people like Reverend Falwell, is just as bad as Reverand whatshisface, in Chacago.

You deny that all of this fear, over a damned building, is irrational. You deny that Republicans demonize gay people, women, Muslims, and Liberals. You speak about a right to have a different opinion, then you call people who disagree with your opinions, irrational.

All violence, is irrational, unless it is done in self defense, not just Muslim violence. You supported using torture, but you say I am the irrational one, and you are, I suppose, more rational than I am. YOu supported invadint and occupying Iraq, even though it had nothing to do with 9/11, or al Qaeda, and it was a piss poor foreing policy decision, but you think I am irrational to take a stand against torturing any human being, for any reason.

Forgive me, Dee. We have very different ideas about rationality. I am fully convicted to mine POV. No amount of twisting, will change that. You think that organized religion, has not fomented most wars and most killing and most grief in the world, ACROSS HISTORY. I think that is A completely irrational VIEW. i WOULD NOT CALL YOU IRRATIONAL

We will never agree, but I do have a few years on you, which doesn't mean I am always right, just probably more mellow, more understanding, more committed to the whole philosophy of live, and let live, and MYOB.

That does happen, with age, as so much of what tragedy and strife which has gone by right in front of one's nose, comes right back to insecure people, who want to demonize everyone elses RIGHTS TO THEIR point of view, and want all rights for themselves, but think they have the right to deny others of those same rights, merely because they are different.
we see things in a very different way.

Let me ask you this, would Melman, Or Mehlman, however he speels it, have been in the positions he was in, in the republican Party, had he been honest about his sexual preferences?


Do you admire Laura Bush, for hiding her tru feelings about abortion, and gay marriage, for all those years?

Do you think people like Mehlman. can do more good in the world, if they are accepted, and embraced for being who they are, or if they are demonized and excluded, and denied the same rights of heterosexuals?

The CRA, worked for decades. Brought a great amount of tax revenue to bad areas, lifted many up from poverty, and it was a positive thing, not a negative thing.

One president puts a good idea into action, for the right reasons, but that action is overseen by all of the presidents who follow him. The CRA, was NOT the major cause of the financial Real Estate Bubble, nor of the crash, it was the crooks on Wall Street, not the fact that we outlawed Banks from discriminating against African Americans.

The rising costs for gas, health insurance, health care, food, throughout the Bush administration, which caused the Middle Class to take a beating in this finanncial disaster. Not a bunch of ignorant, lazy AFrican Americans, who bought houses they couldn't afford. All income levels, bought houses they couldn't afford, and the wealthy bought the most of them, and anyway, it was greedy croooks on Wall street who fomented the Ponzi scheme against the world, not Jimmy Carter!

It is the underlying principle of humanity, that love and forgiveness, begets more love and forgiveness, and I don't see that principle consistantly at work in any fundamentalist religious organization. Not in Christianity, and not the Islam of the Middle Eas, but I believe that most Muslims in our country, are not the kind of Muslims who fly planes into buildings, or cut of off their women's heads.

There is a difference between rights, and duty. I have a personal duty, to take a stand against discrimination, needless wars, torture, homophobia, sexism, racism. I will do so as long as I live. You may choose your own way.

G.

</span>

Principles aren't up for the folly of automatic emotional responses, neither is our Constitution, or the rights insured for all Americans, within it.

Building hate against ALL Muslims, without taking into consideration that all Muslims did not attack us on 9/11, only nineteen of them did so.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again, look at the record of attacks on Muslims in this country since 9/11. In no other country would they be as safe as they are here. </span>

All Muslims do not hate America.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Who says they do? </span>

<span style="color: #000066">Well, you have written more than once, that you think most of them do. I don't. </span>

All Muslims do not attack others over religious ideology.

<span style="color: #FF0000">No, but many more than 19 are trying. </span>

<span style="color: #000066">Many more than njineteen is not the same thing as MOST. </span>

And given the festering religious battles going on all over the world, between various nutty religious fundamentalists, and right here in America, I think this is a very important time to line oneself up behind equal rights for all Americans. That has absolutely nothing to do with PC, it has to do with protecting the Constitution of the United States Of America, equal rights for all, not using sexual or religious, or gender discrimination, and haeful rhetoric, as a political football, to gin up more hate, and exploit it for ppolitical purposes.

<span style="color: #FF0000">You are just over the top here. We have long ago aligned ourselves with the equal rights of all. Many of us have fought for that. Your trying a play any question as an assault on these rights is not a valid argument seeing that the vast majority of us are not asking that any rights be taken from anyone. You are seeing boogiemen where they simply don't live. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </span>


<span style="color: #000066">And I think you, and those protestors, are the ones seeing boogiemen, where none exist. You are suppoorting a protest which seeks to deny a moderate Muslim community organization, which supports America against Radical Islam, and which wishes to cleanse their own radical religious ideology, and stand for the moderate version of their religion, which MOST Msulims practice, the same right to religious freedom that all other religions have.

All I can say, is that I wish there were more religious groups in this country, trying to do the same thing, within their religious groups that these folks are committed to doing.


Gayle...
</span>
Now I have addressed each of your points, would you like to address each of mine?

<span style="color: #FF0000"> I think I did. </span>


G. </div></div> </div></div>

Deeman3
08-27-2010, 01:28 PM
I couldn't read the dark blue on my screen but I guess we still disagree. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I will just say it is not unconsitutional to object to the Mosque being built at groud zero and it does not by iself mean someone hates Muslims or even the majority of them.

It is really up to the people building it and, IMO, it would be nice for them to consider the thoughts and feelings of the families of 9/11 victims.

As long as they are not gay Musloms wanting to get married in the place I guess it is up to others, not me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Chopstick
08-27-2010, 02:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't read the dark blue on my screen but I guess we still disagree. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I will just say it is not unconsitutional to object to the Mosque being built at groud zero and it does not by iself mean someone hates Muslims or even the majority of them.

It is really up to the people building it and, IMO, it would be nice for them to consider the thoughts and feelings of the families of 9/11 victims.

As long as they are not gay Musloms wanting to get married in the place I guess it is up to others, not me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

There is nothing in the constitution that says you can build a building anywhere you want. The constitution says you have the freedom to practice any religion. It does not say you can practice that religion anywhere you want. What if they wanted to hold services in the middle of the street? Does anyone have a constitutional right to do that?

Deeman3
08-27-2010, 02:24 PM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

pooltchr
08-27-2010, 02:27 PM
If, as they claim, the purpose of the center is to build bridges and promote understandings between different religions, I wonder how they would feel is a christian group wanted to hold a prayer meeting there.

Do they really want more understanding....or do they just want acceptance? Do you think they really want to understand christianity?

Steve

llotter
08-27-2010, 03:14 PM
The sooner we face the fact that Islam is not compatible with Western Civilization and our concept of individual freedom, the sooner we can come up with a plan to marginalize its influence. It makes no sense to sacrifice ourselves on the alter of diversity and multiculturalism. Just as Germany would have been much better off if they had recognized and dealt with the evil Nazism/Fascism, we must deal with ideologies that are in basic conflict with our fundamental principles.

Qtec
08-28-2010, 03:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chopstick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There is nothing in the constitution that says you can build a building anywhere you want. The constitution says you have the freedom to practice any religion. It does not say you can practice that religion anywhere you want. What if they wanted to hold services in the middle of the street? Does anyone have a constitutional right to do that? </div></div>

link (http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions)


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frequently Asked Questions about the Proposed Community Center Project in Lower Manhattan


Who is organizing this project?
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan originally proposed the idea of a Muslim Community Center in lower Manhattan, where Imam Feisal has had a mosque for 27 years. A real estate developer, Sharif Gamal, was a member of Imam Feisal’s congregation and suggested that a building located at 51 Park Place. might be a good location for the future community center. That was the beginning of the plan. Before any fundraising begins, a new non-profit organization will be formed to raise funds and organize the community center.

What’s the purpose of the Community Center?
Since no comparable Muslim community center exists in New York City, Imam Feisal and Daisy Khan wished to create for Muslim New Yorkers something similar to a YMCA or the 92nd St. Y; and they wanted to include a space for interfaith dialogues and a separate prayer space on one of the floors.

The proposed community center in Lower Manhattan will serve as a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America and globally.


Both Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Ms. Khan are strong advocates for multi-faith collaboration. They share a vision of a community center in which various religious leaders and civil society will work closely together to foster community cohesion and advance the shared goals of moderation, peace and understanding. Through multicultural programs offered by the Cordoba Initiative and ASMA, the community center would crystallize this shared vision of peace into bricks and mortar.


It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.

The community center will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their culture or background, will find a place of learning, arts and culture, and, most importantly, a community center guided by the universal values of all religions in their truest form – peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all.



Why are you building “a mosque near Ground zero?”
<u>Strictly speaking, it will not be a “mosque,” although it would have a prayer space on one of its 15 floors.</u> At the beginning, no one considered the fact that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Abdul Rauf’s current mosque is 12 blocks from the Ground Zero site, while the Park51 Community Center location is only 2 and one-half blocks away. We never discussed wanting to be close to Ground Zero; our goal was to find a good real estate opportunity for a community center. 51 Park seemed to fit the bill.

But why so close to Ground Zero?
We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years. American Muslims have been peacefully living, working and worshipping in this neighborhood all along and were also terribly affected by the horrific events of 9/11.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>We wanted to build a community center in our old neighborhood, and the Park51 location became available. (In our part of lower Manhattan, it’s hard not to be close to Ground Zero.) As Muslim New Yorkers and Americans, we want to help and be part of rebuilding our neighborhood. It is important for everyone to show the world that Americans will not be frightened or deterred by the extremist forces of hatred. </span></div></div>

watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7WbTv_gsx4)

This project has been years in the making. there was never a problem before the the RW decided to make it an election issue and damn the consequences.

Q.............like this. link (http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/racist-ground-zero-political-ad-brought)

Gayle in MD
09-01-2010, 07:28 AM
Just more RW fear mongering.

The "Wannabe American Dictators" always rely on vicious propaganda.

Hate, and ignorance always respond positively.

This American fundamentalist idiot who plans to burn a mound of Quron's contributes to expanding hate, and danger, without being held to account for how his actions impact our National Security.

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G. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif