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View Full Version : Allison vs Earl Strickland or Efren Reyes



Harold Acosta
08-28-2002, 06:20 PM
[b]After seeing Whitewolf's post about Allison web pictures, I browsed through the site. In the question and answers page, Allison answers the following:
<font color=blue>
Q. Have you ever thought about playing in open events against the guys?

A. I occasionally enter open tournaments but I don't see this becoming a regular thing in the foreseeable future. If there was to be a match between myself and one of the best male players, I would like to do it in a one on one TV situation.
<font color=black>

Based on her reply, what do you people think about Allison matching against Earl or Reyes?

I know she should be able to run a couple of racks against them but could she win the match?

What are your opinions?

Cueless Joey
08-28-2002, 06:38 PM
Harold, I was told Efren's backer already offered Allison the 6 out. Allison I heard lost some 20k from a road player getting the 7 from him.

Bob C
08-28-2002, 07:11 PM
Allison and Grady Mathews played a series of matches around the country a year or two ago. I don't know if it was serious competition was or wether it was mostly staged. Grady won most, but not all the matches as I recall. I think the details are in "Bet High and Kiss Low", but I have loaned it to a friend and can't double check the facts at the moment.

08-28-2002, 07:57 PM
the difference between a top woman player and player ANY pro male, let alone a top pro player, is that the male can come back with a shot of his own. with the women, if they get put on a spot with some kind of difficult shot, they're done.

nAz
08-28-2002, 08:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Harold, I was told Efren's backer already offered Allison the 6 out. Allison I heard lost some 20k from a road player getting the 7 from him. <hr></blockquote>
The SIX and out, wow i find that very hard to believe. how could someone at her level refuse it?

Harold Acosta
08-28-2002, 08:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Bob C:</font><hr> Allison and Grady Mathews played a series of matches around the country a year or two ago. I don't know if it was serious competition was or wether it was mostly staged. Grady won most, but not all the matches as I recall. I think the details are in "Bet High and Kiss Low", but I have loaned it to a friend and can't double check the facts at the moment. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I know about this series. I wouldn't say it was mostly staged cause Allison was at her peak and Grady is a "Warrior" so the outcome of those matches, in my opinion, really doesn't come into this equation.

What I am wondering is if Allison at this stage of her career (doing a comeback), would be a hard cookie for any of the two I mentioned. I believe not but then I could be wrong since I haven't been following much of Allison's play as of lately. Maybe Chris from NC could shed some light on this subject.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-28-2002, 09:13 PM
Imaginary questions are fun, opinions are shared and some good discussions can develop.

I really think Allison would stuggle against any of the top male 20 male players, in an even match. But, I would imagine that the format would be alternating breaks. That would keep her opponent from stringing multiple racks and give her a chance every other game. Just a thought..

I saw her play Grady twice, a year apart. He just knew 9 ball better than she did. Position (left or right) of the ob rail speed, table speed and knowing when to play safe, Grady had the edge in all of these cases. And he is in his 60s.

She played serious.

Doomsday Machine
08-28-2002, 09:51 PM
I have told this story before but will repeat it for those who haven't read it. Several years ago I had the opportunity to play against Franziska Stark for about 8 hours. At the time she was considered the best female 9 ball player in Europe and one of the best female players in the world (I believe she won 2 or 3 world titles). I was, at the time, probably in the top 40 in Germany and maybe in the top 500 world wide and I beat her 85 games to 40 !! In a long race Allison would have NO CHANCE against any of the top 100 male players. The only way should would ever win a set was maybe a race to 7. Although I enjoy watching the top women play they just don't have the depth of knowledge that a hardened male pro player has. At this extreme high level of play a ball spot also really doesn't help matters much as the male players will control the game.

Cueless Joey
08-28-2002, 09:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: nAz:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Cueless Joey:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; Harold, I was told Efren's backer already offered Allison the 6 out. Allison I heard lost some 20k from a road player getting the 7 from him. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The SIX and out, wow i find that very hard to believe. how could someone at her level refuse it? <hr></blockquote>
Naz, Efren gave Jimmy Wetch the 7 ball and beat him. Efren has given the 5-6 and the break to a very good player at Hard Times. Allison can shoot but she doesn't break that well and does not kick like Efren can.

9 Ball Girl
08-28-2002, 10:16 PM
I think Earl can beat Allison. He's got a great kicking system. Now Allison and the Pearl would be interesting to watch.

But what do I really think? Jean Balukas can take any of the top male players anytime and kick some serious a$$!

08-28-2002, 11:49 PM
Well, I guess you haven't been to too many WPBA events. I've seen many of the women hit really aggressive and difficult shots to get out a hole. Particularly Jeanette, a few years back, when her game was really on. These gals have a shot or two. They're just smart enough to play the percentages when there's prize money on the line.

To be sure, though, the women do tend to play much less adventurous shots, and there's a real big gap between Alison, Karen, Jeanette, and pretty much the rest of the field. If they get out of line, they're less likely to hit a hard recovery shot to get back in line and run out, and they're not quite so likely to get drilled if their safety isn't Loctite. I reckon only those three could break into the top 150 ranks of the male players, but there aren't too many men outside the top 50 would want to give up weight to them.

Efren's six and out offer (assuming it's genuine) is called "intimidation". I bet he wouldn't give up the breaks.

Strickland against Alison. Omigosh. What would I give to see the Pearl go down. You'd have to hose him down for weeks! Let's face it, if he played like he did against Jeremy Jones in the Worlds', anything could happen.

Klutz

08-28-2002, 11:53 PM
I do not wish to discredit anyones game, but I do not believe Allison could out play eigther of them, most certainly not if it were winner break and a long race

08-29-2002, 12:05 AM
i've seen jeanette get drilled, though she's fully capable. i'd give only the other two the remotest chance. and they would have to do it game in and game out. on a one shot deal, anything can happen. korr beat mika in an exhibition.

Cueless Joey
08-29-2002, 12:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: arnie:</font><hr> i've seen jeanette get drilled, though she's fully capable. i'd give only the other two the remotest chance. and they would have to do it game in and game out. on a one shot deal, anything can happen. korr beat mika in an exhibition. <hr></blockquote>
Arnie, the tournament director at my local pool hall said somebody bet Jeanette to play the 9-ball ghost at his pool hall. These are very loose tables yet JL lost. She did not get out on half of the racks. The men, according to Pat F., run out more than 80% of the time with ball in hand on the 1 ball.

Tommy_Davidson
08-29-2002, 12:31 AM
&gt; I have heard from several reliable sources that Allison beat Tony Watson with the 6-ball,but lost to Cliff Joyner with the 5,although both matches were winner breaks. If Efren has offered Allison the 6 and the break,you can bet he win with it. Earl played a Memphis player that played about the same speed that Allison does now,back in the '80's. Earl spotted him the 4,5,6 the break and the first shot,sight unseen. After being handed a 12 rack run with this huge spot,the Pearl held the game at a complete standstill for more than 8 hours. If Earl played Allison a race to 50,winner breaks,she might not get to 20,alternating the break she would fare a little better but still couldn't win with 15 on the wire. Same goes for Efren. Not knocking Allison AT ALL,that's the way I see it. Tommy D.

08-29-2002, 03:56 AM
Efren or Earl could both give her the 5 and the breaks and beat her to a bloody pulp. NO QUESTION

08-29-2002, 04:08 AM
(THE MEN) that's a % of all of them. Now take Stricklands % with ball in hand. It's over 90% when he's playing bad.

08-29-2002, 04:16 AM
Very simple, she would get DESTROYED!!!

Rich R.
08-29-2002, 04:36 AM
Allison vs Earl -- it depends on what mood Earl is in that day. It could go either way.
Allison vs Efren -- Efren wins, especially if there are very large sums of money involved.
JMHO. Rich R.

Harold Acosta
08-29-2002, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doomsday Machine:</font><hr> In a long race Allison would have NO CHANCE against any of the top 100 male players. The only way should would ever win a set was maybe a race to 7. Although I enjoy watching the top women play they just don't have the depth of knowledge that a hardened male pro player has. At this extreme high level of play a ball spot also really doesn't help matters much as the male players will control the game. <hr></blockquote>

[b]No disrespect Doomsday, but saying that Allison doesnt have a chance with the first 100 male players.....well, I don't buy that. I agree with Tom in C, that she would struggle with the top 20 but saying that of the top 100, in my opinion, is inaccurate.

Harold Acosta
08-29-2002, 04:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I think Earl can beat Allison. He's got a great kicking system. Now Allison and the Pearl would be interesting to watch. <hr></blockquote>

I agree with you....


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr>But what do I really think? Jean Balukas can take any of the top male players anytime and kick some serious a$$! <hr></blockquote>

[b]I've never seen Jean play, so I cannot form my opinion on this one!

Harold Acosta
08-29-2002, 04:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I do not wish to discredit anyones game, but I do not believe Allison could out play eigther of them, most certainly not if it were winner break and a long race <hr></blockquote>

[b] With alternating break, she may have an opportunity...

Harold Acosta
08-29-2002, 04:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike D.:</font><hr> Efren or Earl could both give her the 5 and the breaks and beat her to a bloody pulp. NO QUESTION <hr></blockquote>

[b]Sorry buddy but the 5 and the breaks? You got to be kidding me, right?

Harold Acosta
08-29-2002, 04:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rich R.:</font><hr> Allison vs Earl -- it depends on what mood Earl is in that day. It could go either way. <hr></blockquote>
.....True, very true......

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rich R.:</font><hr> Allison vs Efren -- Efren wins, especially if there are very large sums of money involved.
JMHO. Rich R. <hr></blockquote>
[b]Also very true....

TomBrooklyn
08-29-2002, 05:15 AM
I'd say either Earl or Efren could give Allison the 6 ball. Same for Karen Corr. Heads up would just be a blow out.

08-29-2002, 06:39 AM
Strickland can give the 6 ball to people that can give A. Fisher the 6 ball.

08-29-2002, 06:50 AM
earl would not beat allison, he would DESTROY her!!!!

oh yeah, efren would do just about the same but he would kill her slowly.

bluewolf
08-29-2002, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Imaginary questions are fun, opinions are shared and some good discussions can develop.

I really think Allison would stuggle against any of the top male 20 male players, in an even match. But, I would imagine that the format would be alternating breaks. That would keep her opponent from stringing multiple racks and give her a chance every other game. Just a thought..

I saw her play Grady twice, a year apart. He just knew 9 ball better than she did. Position (left or right) of the ob rail speed, table speed and knowing when to play safe, Grady had the edge in all of these cases. And he is in his 60s.

She played serious.
<hr></blockquote>

allison does not seem to be in her top form right now, so i think she would be at an even greater disadvantage.

bluewolf

08-29-2002, 06:54 AM
I think Earl can beat Allison. He's got a great kicking system. Now Allison and the Pearl would be interesting to watch.


hey babe, i think earl IS the pearl....i think.....i may not be right.....but i think.......don't get too wound up.....just what i think is true.....not saying that is or anything....

bluewolf
08-29-2002, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: chupamejodete:</font><hr> earl would not beat allison, he would DESTROY her!!!!

oh yeah, efren would do just about the same but he would kill her slowly. <hr></blockquote>

i have seen the men play and i have seen the women play. i just dont think they play the same.the styles are completely different. i think comparing the two is an excercise in futility.

bluewolf

Fred Agnir
08-29-2002, 07:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Harold Acosta:</font><hr> What are your opinions? <hr></blockquote>
My opinion is that I'm surprised that this question hasn't been asked before. Before the end of this month, that is. It's monthly visit almost was skipped.

That being said, there remains a gap between the best male and the best female. There is a gap between the average male and the average female. Those respective gaps, IMO, have continued to decrease.

Speculation based on a decade ago's performance is really not fair. The women's professional game has come a long way.

The Grady/Allison exhibition was as much of a learning tool for Allison as Karen's workouts with the Fusco were. So judging either's ability by pointing to days before their current skill level is also not fair.

Allison already won a men's Viking Tour tournament. And I'm sure half those guys thought beforehand that they could have their way with her. Karen has come in 2nd on the Joss Tour, a tour filled with guys who can and do compete on the "regular" tour. So, it's not too far fetched that these two can at least be more competitive than some here would suggest.

That being said, I'll re-iterate that there remains a gap between the men and the women, but that gap is getting smaller. And the overlap is much more than some would care to admit.

Finally, I'd like to paraphrase what Joanne Mason once said. Franciska Stark was by far the worst world champion women's pool has ever seen. Vivian should never have let her off the hook.

Fred

08-29-2002, 09:13 AM
This has been speculated here often before, but not lately. In any one set, anything could happen - that is the nature of the game of 9-Ball. Allison defeated Tommy Kennedy twice convincingly to win a regional tourney last year, and did the same to Tony Watson a few years earlier. Certainly most knowledgeable fans here wouldn't argue that either of those to gentleman could potentially beat Earl or Efren in any given set - although they'd certainly be a heavy underdog.

If I hosted a showdown between the two at our room, I would help Allison out by having them play on super tight pockets (3-3/4") and an alternate break format - both of which I think would give her a slightly better chance. I've seen her play often on these sized pockets, and where it destroys most players games (even very good players) - she quite possibly plays as good or better than she normally does. She becomes so focused and gets in to her snooker mindset - using minimal english.

Bottom line - if she played Earl or Efren 10 sets of races to 9 or 11 under normal conditions, my guess is she could win at least 1-2 sets. If played under my conditions, I'm thinking she could win more like 3-4 of those 10 sets - just speculation. - Chris in NC

08-29-2002, 09:49 AM
Let me add/alter 2 things to my previous post on this. First, a few posters mentioned that Allison does not have the practice discipline she used to have, and I would fully agree. The results I speculated would be based on the assumption that in order to propertly prepare for this match Allison would be on a regular practice discipline (minimum 4-5 hours daily) for at least one month - including a number of quality sparring sessions against other very good male pro players. My guess is she has not had a stretch of one month of preparation (daily practice) for probably at least 4 years. Also for clarity, the tour with Grady was over 4 years ago and Grady won by 11 matches to 10. 6 months later they had two more exhibitions and Allison won both handily.

Secondly, when I re-read my post I said I'd guess she'd win at least 1-2 sets out of 10 (in races to 9 or 11) under normal conditions. Leave the "at least" part out of that statement - as I don't think she'd figure to win more than 2 out of 10 sets under normal conditions.

I think most players here understand the nature of 9-ball and the possibility of upsets - particularly when you've got 2 good players. For example at a regional tourney in Winston-Salem two weeks ago, in one of my matches I defeated a player 9-6. This same player playing in Goldsboro, NC last weekend lost a hill-hill match to Earl Strickland 11-10. Based on that, do I figure to have a remote chance to beat Earl in any one set? I'm not gonna say and make a fool of myself, but certainly if I ever played Earl I'm going to try my hardest, play to win and not give up on the set before it even starts.

Don't underestimate Allison's talent and competitive nature. I'd love to hear Tommy Kennedy or CJ Wiley's answer to this question - they've both been there at the receiving end when she's playing well. - Chris in NC

08-29-2002, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


If I hosted a showdown between the two at our room, I would help Allison out by having them play on super tight pockets (3-3/4") and an alternate break format - both of which I think would give her a slightly better chance.


<hr></blockquote>

Alternating the break would help her, but the size of the pockets would make no difference. I've seen Efren play on very tight equipment, and it doesn't make a difference. I saw him run 3 racks of rotation at Hard Times, and the pockets there are pretty tight.

Cueless Joey
08-29-2002, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: JimmyTheD:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;In reply to:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;p&gt;
If I hosted a showdown between the two at our room, I would help Allison out by having them play on super tight pockets (3-3/4") and an alternate break format - both of which I think would give her a slightly better chance.
<hr></blockquote>

Alternating the break would help her, but the size of the pockets would make no difference. I've seen Efren play on very tight equipment, and it doesn't make a difference. I saw him run 3 racks of rotation at Hard Times, and the pockets there are pretty tight. <hr></blockquote>
I agree. Efren once ran 5 1/2 15 ball racks. Pockets at Hard Times are 1 and 3/4 balls tight.
I think Efren can easily give Allison 5 games on the wire going to 17. Efren gave Wetch and Ginky the 7 ball. These two can play. Alternate breaks wouldn't matter.

08-29-2002, 01:10 PM
The five ball might be a close game, but i think Earl would lose giving Allison the orange crush, the break is way too important. Her chances are still much better playing Strickland than Reyes. Reyes would probably like that game. lol

Bob C
08-29-2002, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> The men, according to Pat F., run out more than 80% of the time with ball in hand on the 1 ball. <hr></blockquote>

It would be interesting to get Pat Flemmings perspective on this subject since he has a lot of data at hand, both men's and women's.

08-29-2002, 01:25 PM
While at the penninsula open this year Efren gave the 5, 7, and the breaks to a very high rated local player, who by the way ran 9 racks in a row just two weeks before..they played for 11 hours and Reyes came out ahead. Reyes would kill Allison with the 6 and out. He's the most fearless player the world has ever seen. He's better at pool than Tiger is at golf, than Jordan ever was at bball, than, well you get what I'm sayin. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Rod
08-29-2002, 01:31 PM
Quote Fred, My opinion is that I'm surprised that this question hasn't been asked before. Before the end of this month, that is. It's monthly visit almost was skipped.

Yep I agree, and pure speculation, plus I don't care at this point. If a match was set up then it would be worth discussing.

08-29-2002, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


i have seen the men play and i have seen the women play. i just dont think they play the same.the styles are completely different. i think comparing the two is an excercise in futility.


<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, it's like racing a horse against a greyhound /webbbs/images/icons/wink.gif

08-29-2002, 01:49 PM

08-29-2002, 03:19 PM
The top men players would beat the top women players,but the women are by far the nicest looking bent over a table then the men.

08-29-2002, 09:52 PM
Cliff Joyner already gave Allison the 5-ball and beat her and his 9-ball game is nowhere near the caliber of Efren or Earl.

08-29-2002, 09:59 PM
Wo was the player Efren played at penninsula?

08-29-2002, 10:24 PM
Tim Colvin, He's an awesome up and coming player. You can look him up on az billiards. I also played Efren a race to 10 for a hundred bucks heads up just to warm him up for some real action. I won 6 games /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif not too shabby /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

08-29-2002, 10:33 PM
The Jeanette of a few years back was a more formidable force. From what I understand, she's had major back problems, and her game has clearly suffered. At that time, though, she had far more creativity, knowledge, and sheer chutzpa than Alison.

bluewolf
08-30-2002, 09:17 AM
how fast do they run?

wolves 30mph
huskies 20mph
certain wild cats even faster

bluewolf