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Pacifist
08-31-2010, 07:11 PM
I have been structuring my practice lately on shots out of the Pro Book. First off I love the book and using it as a basis for my practice is helping my game.

My question is: How come some of the shots don't seem to work very well on a 7 foot table? It seems as if the rails play a lot differently than the diagrams show. For most shots I can make small adjustments to the english I apply and get the desired outcome, but for a lot of the kick safeties and banks I have a very difficult time getting the shot to match the diagram.Some shots I can't get to match at all.

Are the differences due to the different sizes of the table, the equipment I'm playing on(7' Shelti bar box), or am I just that far off in my stroke?

If you are familiar with the Pro Book and want to know which shots I am having trouble with I can list the number. I don't know how to post a diagram of the shot.

Tony_in_MD
09-01-2010, 05:23 AM
Don't know if it is a problem with all 7 footers or just the one you are playing on.

List the shots and see what you get.

SpiderMan
09-01-2010, 01:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pacifist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you are familiar with the Pro Book and want to know which shots I am having trouble with I can list the number. I don't know how to post a diagram of the shot.
</div></div>

I practice with the Pro Book now and then, and I play a lot on 7' tables (Valley and Diamond).

Which particular shots from the book are you working on?

SpiderMan

Chopstick
09-04-2010, 11:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pacifist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are the differences due to the different sizes of the table, the equipment I'm playing on(7' Shelti bar box), or am I just that far off in my stroke?
</div></div>


Weigh the cue ball and compare it to a regular cue ball.

Pacifist
09-05-2010, 10:53 AM
Here are the shots that have given me problems so far:

Kick safety #3.I can get the object ball to follow the path if I stop the cueball behind the interfering balls rather than float it down to the rail. If I try to float the cueball the object ball comes up short.

Kick safety #4. I can't seem to do this one at all.If I hit the object ball thin enough and with enough power to get the cueball to follow the path I always leave an ope shot.

Bank #7. I can make the shot just fine but the cueball tracks about a diamond short of the diagramed path making it impossible to bring it back to the center of the table.

Thats all I have so far. I have divided the shots up into different groups and I practice those groups for an hour each day for one week before moving on to the next group.

I haven't weighed the cueball but the ones we use are supposed to be the same weight as the object ball. Next time I will use a red circle cueball and see if it makes a difference.

bradb
09-05-2010, 12:50 PM
There is big differences between bar box tables and regular pool tables. For one the Qball is bigger than the object balls, (this keeps it from going into the no-return area.) In league play they should put standard balls on the table.

It's rare if a bar table is level as they are bumped and banged around by all kinds of abuse. The cloth is usually the thickest (and cheapest) they can put on it so as a result it will react differently with spin, the Qball will dig in more and angle off differently, it will also roll very slow forcing you to shoot with more pace then you like.

Brad

Pacifist
09-05-2010, 05:03 PM
Our tables aren't like that at all. The cueballs are the same size(you can open the table for the rental fee and use a red circle cueball if you want to), the cloth is fast usually championship 30/45 I think, the tables are kept level(if they aren't we level them), we even got them to shim the pockets down to 4.5 inches. These are the tables at our local poolhall. It is a small place but the tables are kept in good condition and the environment is friendly. There is only one nine foot table there because all the competition in my area is done on bar tables. I'm glad we have this place available I used to have to play at bars with overweight or oversized cueballs, cloth with a lot of nap, forget about finding a decent tip on a house cue most of them were slip on tips, and getting a level table only happened in dreams.

SpiderMan
09-07-2010, 10:34 AM
I haven't spent a lot of time on kick safety #3, but I do remember that I had to try it for about 30 minutes before it worked once as diagrammed. This one is extremely sensitive to the fullness of hit on the object ball. Being off by a fraction to the right can send the CB into the rail, or into the pocket for a scratch. Hitting it too full or to the left lets it come out into the open, not getting safe. While this shot might be a fun practice exercise, I don't think I'd shoot it that way when it mattered. I'd probably go with top into the rail to get a little stop action coming off into the OB and keep the CB closer to the blockers.

I tried kick safety #4 this weekend on a Valley bar table. It worked OK, but was very sensitive to setup. If the CB and OB aren't the correct distance from the rail, you can't seem to get the CB to strike the correct spot on the foot rail and the CB goes long. A buttload of left english seemed to get me closer more often, but again I don't think that it will be easy to execute this safety exactly as drawn for a random table setup. But, even if the CB goes long to the end rail, it's still possible to be safe, depending on where the blockers are.

Bank #7: Not sure what you mean by "a diamond short of the diagrammed path". When I shoot this shot almost straight-on, the CB comes much closer to the lower left corner pocket. When I set the shot up with the CB further to the right (as in the diagram), the CB comes closer to the path illustrated in the book. I shoot this one with a little bit of high outside, to negate the throw effect when the CB and OB rub together. You can achieve the same effect by cutting thinner, but since the amount of throw is a little random, you don't know exactly how much to over-cut. Also, if your technique is not perfect, when you try to hit centerball you will often be off a little bit to one side or the other. I find it is more consistent to go ahead and "intend" to be off to the side of helping english (left), as the slightest little bit of unintended right on the CB will make this bank miss way short.

SpiderMan

JJFSTAR
09-09-2010, 10:52 AM
Unfortunately different equipment reacts with more variance than most people realize. Different balls on different tables with different cloth under different conditions will all react wildly differently. I will never forget watching Jeremy Jones(sp) and ďthe motor city madmanĒ (I forget his real name) play a semifinal. It was really hot and humid everything was slipping. Jones had to wipe his shaft and his hands not just before his inning but sometimes in the middle of it; these guys missed cut shots that an SL5 would have little trouble with. They were both cutting thin because there was a tremendous reduction of CIT (cueball induced throw).

The difference between CBís I believe is your biggest variance. Even if you are playing with a CB that is the same size and weight as the OBís it doesnít necessarily mean that it will react the same way. Not only are mud balls(CBís that are larger that the OBís) and magnetic balls(balls that have metal in them to trip them down a different gutter than the OBís) vary from other types of balls, but there is tremendous variance within the same category of balls.

In other words there are better magnetic balls than others. Drop a good magnetic ball (usually these are more yellowish than pure white) and a cheap magnetic ball from hip height onto a smooth concrete floor. The good one (like an Aramith) will bounce a lot higher. Do the same with an unmarked, measles, red circle, red dot, red triangle, blue dot, blue circle, black dot, black circle or black lighting bolt for that matter and you will get different results. There even used to be a yellow dot that anyone who could hold a cue could draw back off the table out the door and 3 blocks down the street but; when follow was used, there was a deflection and delay before the follow took. It was silly even trying to play with it.


So to bottom line it; are the diagrams in the book that are taken from the results you will typically get from a pro shooting with lets say a custom cue, high end production or low deflection cue on a 9ft diamond table with newer clean simonies 760 or 860 cloth and polished super armith pro balls that have a red circle, blue circle or measles CB the same as you will get at your pool hall? Maybe and maybe not, I am actually the only self taught pool player (to my knowledge) that I have ever met face to face. For the most part all of the knowledge of the game that I have has come from people like Byrne, Kohler, Martin and Fels, through their books and videos.


My suggestion for what it is worth would be to yes memorize the diagrams but not for the exact paths of the CB and OB but for the ďideaĒ of them with the understanding that some of them will work incredibly differently from the different equipment and yes believe it or not even different climate conditions.

Finally I am completely ready for a slew of posters who are going to say that what I have said is BS. To them I say ďfeel freeĒ.

Bambu
09-10-2010, 08:28 AM
I agree, the cue ball variance is huge on a small table. Bigger swing that I see though, is the table quality. A regular bar table around here is filthy, has dead rubber, pitted/stained cloth, and a roll that never ends. To me, thats what a bar table is. It's all I've ever known.

Now compare that to a diamond 7 footer, and its simply night and day. So would I rather play on a diamond with a giant cue ball, or a good cue ball on a bad table? I'd probably pick the better cue ball, but I'd rather just stay home.