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phil in sofla
08-29-2002, 02:04 PM
Not entirely following it, but on this board last week or so, it was mentioned that Steve Knight failed to call his out ball, I guess, and evidently lost the game, or a couple of them, because of it.

Not sure this is correct, exactly, but it raise the question.

If you had been the opponent, and noticed in time that Knight was about to blow it on such a technicality, SHOULD you tell him, and WOULD you tell him?

My answer is no. It does seem a little bit of poor sportsmanship, given that he had done what he needed to win, except dot the 'i' or cross the 't,' if you will, but technicalities ARE part of the game, just as in the PGA, if you forget to sign your scorecard, you're screwed.

SPetty
08-29-2002, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> If you had been the opponent, and noticed in time that Knight was about to blow it on such a technicality, SHOULD you tell him, and WOULD you tell him?<hr></blockquote>Hi Phil,

At that level of play, no I don't believe I should or would tell him. I agree with you - your opponent should know the rules as well as you know the rules.

In my weekly league play, I'd be more inclined to tell them.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-29-2002, 03:48 PM
Would you tell your opponent during a match, either in league competition or tournament play

they are playing a pattern badly?
using too much english?
Breaking too soft?
Banking too hard?
not using enough english?
shooting the wrong ball?
not using enough chalk?
using the wrong cue?
using the wrong speed?
calling the wrong pocket?
calling the wrong ball?

Where do you draw the line?
ON just dumb decisions or just when they are about to break a rule?

08-29-2002, 05:32 PM
Few things in life are less important than winning a game of pool. If winning a game of pool costs you a part of your self-respect, it costs more than it's worth. It's good that you're concerned about sportsmanship--what it means, what it requires of us. If you feel that good sportsmanship requires that you give your opponent a break in this situation, then maybe that's what you should do.

D.M.

08-29-2002, 06:15 PM
but in golf you don't have to call the hole.

phil in sofla
08-29-2002, 06:20 PM
Ha! True, but every golf hole is a kind of one pocket thing.

I guess the analogy would be if you are in the final round of a golf tournament, co-leading with someone paired with you, and you notice he's turning in an unsigned score card, and realize the error, do you mention to him that maybe he ought to sign his score card?

phil in sofla
08-29-2002, 06:42 PM
Nobody is going to feel great about winning because the other guy screws up. But it happens, and the guy screwing up loses, and the opponent wins, however undeservingly. Those are the breaks, and they say the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.

But that can happen in many different ways, including the opponent's missing a 2 foot straight in shot for unknown reasons, miscuing or whatever. Most of us have given up 'sure' wins by some horribly flawed execution. The opponent 'wins' by our losing, but has nothing to apologize about.

It's nice, in a casual situation, to give 'do-overs,' mulligans, excuse a cue ball foul and tell the guy to shoot anyway, spot a 9 made early and play through the game, etc. But few would think any of this appropriate when playing for real. Reminding your opponent what a rule is falls into this category, in my opinion, when playing a serious match. Just as if they were lining up a tricky kick on the 1, instead of pushing, if that was available to them.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-29-2002, 06:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Duke Mantee:</font><hr> Few things in life are less important than winning a game of pool. If winning a game of pool costs you a part of your self-respect, it costs more than it's worth. It's good that you're concerned about sportsmanship--what it means, what it requires of us. If you feel that good sportsmanship requires that you give your opponent a break in this situation, then maybe that's what you should do.

D.M. <hr></blockquote>

Can't argue about your statement.. but I do have a question. When you play and win, by sloping in the nine ball, do you replay the game, rather than accepting a win by pure luck, no skill?

Just curious.. I have yet to do this.. and it borders on the limits of integrity and sportsmanship.. but the reverse happens to me sometimes... and no one has said.. "let's not count that one.. we'll replay it "

08-29-2002, 06:52 PM
Hell, Tom, I can't recall EVER winning a game of 9-ball!

D.M.

NH_Steve
08-29-2002, 06:53 PM
I rather like to do that -- I like playing in an environment where you &amp; your opponent are both honest enough to help each other out that way. Kinda like when your opponent is lined up to shoot at the wrong pocket in 1P -- do you say something before they shoot? But it depends on the opponent &amp; the situation. With regular opponents, who I know to be likely to reciprocate, yes, I tell them. There are some opponents that sorry, I would not lend that hand, 'cuz I know they wouldn't.

If that occurred in a tournament situation, with a referee at ther table though, it would seem inappropriate to say anything -- that's the ref's role. For example, I might not hear the call, but the ref did, then I jump out of my chair to kindly remind my opponent that he didn't call the pocket, when in fact he did??? That would probably be seen as a sharking move!

A long time ago I was in a tourney without refs and my opponent failed to call a push out -- at least I failed to hear him call a push out -- and the move he made with the cue ball looked like an attempt at a legal safety that accidently touched another ball first. I called a foul &amp; a 'disagreement' ensued because the player insisted he had called a pushout. No one nearby heard a push out call either, but the tourney director called for a rerack. I think i lost after that, to boot... /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

PS, knowing that player -- and the lie of the balls after his 'push out' -- no way he did that on purpose. I wuz robbed!

08-29-2002, 07:28 PM
But more seriously, Tom, I'd find 9-ball more appealing if it were a call-shot game. Max Eberle has proposed that the rules be changed to make it so; he also proposes that making the nine on the snap shouldn't end he game. I play a little ghost 9-ball, but I leave the game alone otherwise, and don't much care about it. But if winning on the snap were eliminated, a lot of our local players would probably go back to foosball for their thrills.

D.M.

Ken
08-29-2002, 09:58 PM
Knight was so outclassed in that match that it would have made no difference if he had been given that game. I would have picked up the cue ball, handed it to him and told him to shoot it again.

It's of more significance that Efren was warned by the crowd just as he was about to sink a nine ball. He got up, grinned and called it. That cost Mika $50,000.

An earlier game where Mika was about to play a fairly easy combo that would have given him the game the crowd didn't see him call it. They yelled throughout the shot and Mika missed it. As he got up he looked at the crowd, clearly puzzled about what they were yelling at.

The crowd saved Efren twice and Mika was clearly not pleased. The rule about calling obvious shots is ridiculous. Certainly the TD can call a final shot on the nine that is obvious just as in straight pool. That stupid rule ruined the matches.

I thought that if you make the nine without calling it the ball was spotted and it counted as a made ball so you keep shooting. If it's the last ball then your opponent shoots? I don't get it.
KenCT

Cueless Joey
08-29-2002, 10:08 PM
I agree Ken.
This is one stupid rule. Almost as dumb as "bar rules" 8-ball.

phil in sofla
08-30-2002, 12:26 AM
&lt;&lt; snip

It's of more significance that Efren was warned by the crowd just as he was about to sink a nine ball. He got up,
grinned and called it. That cost Mika $50,000.

An earlier game where Mika was about to play a fairly easy combo that would have given him the game the crowd
didn't see him call it. They yelled throughout the shot and Mika missed it. As he got up he looked at the crowd, clearly
puzzled about what they were yelling at.

The crowd saved Efren twice and Mika was clearly not pleased. The rule about calling obvious shots is ridiculous.
Certainly the TD can call a final shot on the nine that is obvious just as in straight pool. That stupid rule ruined the
matches.

I thought that if you make the nine without calling it the ball was spotted and it counted as a made ball so you keep
shooting. If it's the last ball then your opponent shoots? I don't get it.

&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; snip

I agree it sounds weird. Seems like you should still be on your turn, shooting a spot shot on the 9 from somewhere. Unless by rule it's an automatic loss, it must be b-i-h to the opponent on a spot shot, so it's an automatic loss that way.

But Efren getting help from the crowd cost Mika $50K?!?!?

NOW that's the question. Do YOU warn EFREN with $50K on the line?

Cueless Joey
08-30-2002, 12:37 AM
&lt;quote&gt;
But Efren getting help from the crowd cost Mika $50K?!?!?

NOW that's the question. Do YOU warn EFREN with $50K on the line? <hr></blockquote>
I would yell.lol
I saw Efren at the World 8-ball in Vegas yrs ago shoot a ball in the kitcher after Varner scratched on the break. NOBODY warned Efren. But, I think Efren loosing 50K because of some STUPID rule is dumb. I know rules are rules but phantom tag double play still exist.lol

Rod
08-30-2002, 12:55 AM
Quote Ken, I thought that if you make the nine without calling it the ball was spotted and it counted as a made ball so you keep shooting. If it's the last ball then your opponent shoots? I don't get it.
KenCT

Ken the rule is call the 9. When no pocket is called at anytime it spots back up. Unless another ball is made when the 9 goes in that player loses his turn. It is not a foul or BIH, the cue ball is live where it stops.
The only reason I like the rule is because of slop, however that's not likely at that level of play. The only warning I'd give someone is, Your on Two!

Ken
08-30-2002, 06:09 AM
Steve Tipton spots the nine and the opponent shoots. Efren did it twice. When Fang got his spot shot the cueball was in the center of the head rail and he missed. Efren then hung the nine and Fang had an easy hanger to win.

Against Mika in the second set Efren gave a game away by not calling the nine. The crowd was not about to see him do it again and made a deafening roar when he got down to shoot the nine in the eighth game. He acknowleged the crowd for that game which would have given Mika the second set and $50,000. Steve lost control of the crowd and repeatedly told them to stay out of the match.

The rule is so stupid it brought the crowd into the match and there was no way to quiet them down. There's no BIH but just end of inning if the nine is the last ball. Tipton did move the cueball after Knight failed to call the nine but he didn't call a BIH foul on himself. Mika had to play a tough spot shot into the side.

If you call the nine but make only the object ball there's no penalty; you just keep shooting. That's the opposite of any other call-pocket game.

I don't think you warn Efren if you are Mika. He didn't seem upset when he got games from Knight and Efren. He did look very unhappy after he lost the $50k in the tiebreaker, however.
KenCT

08-30-2002, 05:35 PM
At this level of professional play having to call the 9-ball - when it's the last ball on the table and quite obvious where you're playing it is absolutely ridiculous. The reason for the rule obviously is to prevent a player from winning a game when the 9-ball is slopped or lucked in - which ALMOST NEVER happens at this level anyway except on the break.

This promoter who seems to adore this rule and has used it for his T of C tourneys for years just doesn't seem to get it. It's a stupid rule and it's totally unnecessary at this level. It's like he's dictating the terms because he's the promoter and puting up the money - by enforcing this silly rule.

He knows good and well that inevitably some players will forget to call it - it happens every year for both the men and the women because they never play this stupid rule in any other tourney they've ever played in - with the exception of his tournament. It's not the first time it has dearly cost a player in a match. - Chris in NC

Nostroke
08-31-2002, 11:19 AM
The purpose of the call rule is to prevent winning by "lucking the ball in".

When its obvious no one should have to verbally call it- In a reffed match, when the player forgets, the official should make the call as to whether the ball was lucked in or made in the intended pocket. This is infinitely simple to do and of course players should be warned that if they forget on a bank or funky carom/combo, the call will go against them. To penalize someone for failing a memory test in a big tournament is absurd.

Im sure this all got started with low life weekly tournament players trying to steal games. How it got "legit" status is beyond me.