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sack316
09-18-2010, 10:28 AM
some random thoughts here...

Our society has slowly but surely began gaining more acceptance for homosexuality. I think that's great, I have many gay friends and believe they have just as much a right to be as happy and/or miserable as the rest of us /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif We're still a long way off from total acceptance, but it does in fact seem the proverbial "we" have begun to accept the "born that way" aspect of the debates. Again, I think this is a good thing. To each their own and their own pursuit of happiness and lifestyle. This is one topic I'm actually probably more left of center on (Gayle smiles there).

OK, so given the big IF we accept such a thing as being genetic or a condition that one is born into and cannot help... then wouldn't the same consideration have to be given to other groups? What about pedophiles? What if they are born and cannot help a sexual/physical attraction to children? Bestiality? Or any other similar group society does not deem "normal" but rather perverse, sick, and often illegal (recall at one time homosexuality would fall into the same 'mentally ill' class as these groups would).

This is not to say I in any way endorse or support such people. Just a thought on society, human nature, psychology, and genetics. Taking personal feelings aside, and focusing simply on the "born this way" ideal, what are your thoughts?

And go (let's see who has the guts to touch this one lol)....

Sack

LWW
09-18-2010, 12:03 PM
You bring up very valid points, and I do think that gays as well as pedophiles and perverts of all stripes are in fact "BORN THAT WAY" as are drunks and drug addicts.

In fact ... I believe we are all "BORN THAT WAY" with the difference being that some of us restrain our base animalistic desires and some don't.

In general religions all teach that man is part animal and part divine and that is what separates us from lower life forms. It is what gives us the ability for amazing levels of compassion and kindness as well as amazing levels of cruelty and iniquity.

Homosexuality is most certainly a deviation from the standard human behavior system, but when practiced between consenting adults is also a victimless crime where bestiality and pedophilia are not.

If it is within the power of the human species to live a life of sexual deprivation in a convent/monastery then it certainly isn't out of line to expect someone to not bugger a young child or the family dog.

LWW

sack316
09-18-2010, 02:09 PM
Excellent points LWW. Pretty much the same way I look at it, just curious to see what others will think.

To still further the thought... how odd we would consider the animal a victim in such a case (and again, IMHO rightly so) yet won't think twice about slaughtering them for sustenance.

Sack

Sev
09-19-2010, 06:04 AM
I have always considered it a genetic anomaly. As such we should be doing research to discover a cure so that the recessive trait no longer becomes dominate.
Once the particular gene sequence is identified it can be dealt with.

As far as those that are afflicted with this particular milady they should be treated no differently than any other individual on a personal level.

pooltchr
09-19-2010, 07:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have always considered it a genetic anomaly. As such we should be doing research to discover a cure so that the recessive trait no longer becomes dominate.
Once the particular gene sequence is identified it can be dealt with.

As far as those that are afflicted with this particular milady they should be treated no differently than any other individual on a personal level.

</div></div>

Out of curiosity, do you think this particular anomaly has been spreading over time, or has it always been present at the same level, but very well hidden from sight? I ask this because it seems that years ago, this was a subject that very few people were aware even existed.
So, it is a gene mutation that has spread, or have our liberal friends just made it easier for those afflicted to be more open about it?
Also, why do you think there are a certain group of the afflicted members of this group to not only bring it out in the open, but to actually flaunt the fact that they are afflicted with pride?
Can we expect other groups to follow suit? Should we be looking for "albino pride" marches on Washington in the future?

Steve

Sev
09-19-2010, 08:05 AM
The affliction has been present throughout history. However due to ever increased breeding its occurrence has increased over time.
Its possible that self inflicted negative environmental conditions have caused an increase in the occurrence of the gene gaining dominance. Meaning pollution and artificially changing our food chain.

Stretch
09-19-2010, 01:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have always considered it a genetic anomaly. As such we should be doing research to discover a cure so that the recessive trait no longer becomes dominate.
Once the particular gene sequence is identified it can be dealt with.

As far as those that are afflicted with this particular milady they should be treated no differently than any other individual on a personal level.

</div></div>

Out of curiosity, do you think this particular anomaly has been spreading over time, or has it always been present at the same level, but very well hidden from sight? I ask this because it seems that years ago, this was a subject that very few people were aware even existed.
So, it is a gene mutation that has spread, or have our liberal friends just made it easier for those afflicted to be more open about it?
Also, why do you think there are a certain group of the afflicted members of this group to not only bring it out in the open, but to actually flaunt the fact that they are afflicted with pride?
Can we expect other groups to follow suit? Should we be looking for "albino pride" marches on Washington in the future?

Steve </div></div>

Odd that you would call homosexuality an "affliction" were you afflicted with straightness? Is everything not status quo an affliction? St.

pooltchr
09-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Sev called it an anomaly. I was just expanding on his thoughts with my questions.

IF his assumption is correct, then that would be exactly what it would be...some genetic mutation.

Steve

LWW
09-19-2010, 02:21 PM
See ... you expected the ability to comprehend language not delivered via spoon and ended up disappointed.

You are holding the bar far too high.

LWW

sack316
09-19-2010, 04:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Odd that you would call homosexuality an "affliction" were you afflicted with straightness? Is everything not status quo an affliction? St. </div></div>

See now this could get interesting. I'd say it depends on what the purpose of sex is for our species. If sex is intended to be for procreation purposes solely, then it could be a sort of anomaly/affliction/whatever (as would the urge to masturbate for that matter) as it is outside the realm of the intended purpose. But if we factor in pleasure as a part of purpose, then that changes things entirely--- and what we consider (generally speaking) outside of the norm would then just be natural.

Sack

Stretch
09-19-2010, 05:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stretch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Odd that you would call homosexuality an "affliction" were you afflicted with straightness? Is everything not status quo an affliction? St. </div></div>

See now this could get interesting. I'd say it depends on what the purpose of sex is for our species. If sex is intended to be for procreation purposes solely, then it could be a sort of anomaly/affliction/whatever (as would the urge to masturbate for that matter) as it is outside the realm of the intended purpose. But if we factor in pleasure as a part of purpose, then that changes things entirely--- and what we consider (generally speaking) outside of the norm would then just be natural.

Sack

</div></div>

Well i think nature has several different stratagies to ensure the survival of the species. Since humans (with the exception of LWW) are rather cerebral it seems the "fun and exciting" quotiant was factored into the equation thus ensuring humans were well endowed to multiply. But it's both a curse and a blessing. Typicaly, wherever populations of anything outgrow their habitat, they crash. Also, the "fun and exciting" part has been the bane of our existance in one form or another since time began. Even now, sex sells everything, and it's everywhere. The more puritanical among us are dutifully appalled while the more liberal among us go Pffft no biggy. And round and round we go. St.

Sev
09-19-2010, 05:51 PM
Do you consider Downs Syndrome an affliction?

Actually sex sell everything because of our innate sex drive.

However. The single purpose of a species is to procreate to insure its survival. Homosexuality is counter to that programming.
This of course does not include learned behavior which creats a situation that makes abnormal behavior appear normal.

Another explanation of Homosexuality is that it could be a built in trigger created by nature that insures that a species does not exceed a certain population threshold. This is unlikely as when most species exceed the threshold which nature will support there is eventually a population crash corrects instances of over population.

Qtec
09-19-2010, 09:08 PM
Its very simple. Do what you want, when you want as long as you don't break the law.
Kids are out of bounds. Period. If you can't control yourself around kids, for whatever reason, you should be locked up.
Its also a fact that most abusers have been abused themselves.

Gays don't hurt people. They just want to live life the way they are, no matter how ridiculous it might seem to you or I.













Q

hondo
09-19-2010, 10:00 PM
Personally, I'm suspicious of any Republican who rants against homosexuality.

pooltchr
09-19-2010, 10:41 PM
I wonder why there is only one species on the planet where homosexuality exists. Seems logical to me that if it were natural, it would show up in the rest of the animal world.

(Although I do wonder sometimes about Yogi and Boo-Boo!)

Steve

sack316
09-20-2010, 11:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its very simple. Do what you want, when you want as long as you don't break the law.
Kids are out of bounds. Period....</div></div>

That is fair enough, but there is no unified law among humankind. Even in the US the age of consent varies by state. Some cultures have no such rules or laws period.

Kinda hard to say "do this in (place A) and you're a sicko... but travel X amount of miles to (place B) and you're normal"

Sack

sack316
09-20-2010, 11:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder why there is only one species on the planet where homosexuality exists. Seems logical to me that if it were natural, it would show up in the rest of the animal world.

(Although I do wonder sometimes about Yogi and Boo-Boo!)

Steve </div></div>

actually, you'd be surprised my friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Sack

LAMas
09-20-2010, 01:28 PM
Hormones did it.:)

Finger Length Helps Predict Test Exam Results, Homosexuality, Cancer, Musical Ability and Aggressive Personality -- Study Shows


Your finger length can predict how you will do on various tests in school. They can also tell if you are likely to be homosexual or straight, if you will likely get certain cancers, be a musician, writer or a scientist, or if you will have an aggresssive or passive personality.The two fingers that are important are the index finger -- the one you use to point to something -- and the ring finger.

Reading, writing and arithmetic...

In a recent study, the results of mathematics and literacy (reading) tests for seven-year-old children could be predicted by measuring the length of these two fingers.

In a study to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, scientists compared the finger lengths of 75 children with their Standardised Assessment Test (SAT) scores. They found a clear link between a child's performance in numeracy and literacy tests and the relative lengths of their index (pointing) and ring fingers.

Scientists believe that the link is caused by different levels of the hormones testosterone and estrogen in the womb -- and the effect they have on both brain development and finger length. This is nothing new, since scientists have known for many years that elevated levels of testosterone -- or other hormones closely resembling testosterone -- can cause the brains of both males and females to be more "masculine."

It has long been known that boys tend to do better on math tests while girls do better at writing, reading and verbal tests.

"Testosterone has been argued to promote development of the areas of the brain which are often associated with spatial and mathematical skills," said Dr Mark Brosnan, Head of the Department of Psychology at the University of Bath, who led the study.

"Estrogen is thought to do the same in the areas of the brain which are often associated with verbal ability. "Interestingly, these hormones are also thought have a say in the relative lengths of our index and ring fingers.

"We can use measurements of these fingers as a way of gauging the relative exposure to these two hormones in the womb and as we have shown through this study, we can also use them to predict ability in the key areas of numeracy and literacy."

How they did the research

The researchers made photocopies of the palm of the children's hands and then measured the length of their index finger and ring finger on both hands using callipers, accurate to 0.01mm. They then divided the length of the index finger by that of the ring finger -- to calculate the child's digit ratio.

When they compared this ratio to the children's SAT scores, they found that a smaller ratio (i.e. a longer ring finger and therefore greater prenatal exposure to testosterone) meant a larger difference between ability in maths and literacy, favouring math skills relative to reading and speaking skills.

When they looked at boy's and girl's performance separately, the researchers found a clear link between high prenatal testosterone exposure, as measured by digit ratio, and higher numeracy SAT scores in males.



Previously, researchers have found a link between index and ring finger lengths and homosexuality (see article in viewzone.)

They also found a link between low prenatal testosterone exposure, which resulted in a shorter ring finger compared with the index finger, and higher literacy SAT scores for girls.

This, says the scientists behind the study, suggests that measurements of finger length could help predict how well children will do in maths and literacy.

"We're not suggesting that finger length measurements could replace SAT tests," said Dr Brosnan.

"Finger ratio provides us with an interesting insight into our innate abilities in key cognitive areas.

"We are also looking at how digit ratio relates to other behavioural issues, such as technophobia [fear of science], and career paths.

There is also interest in using digit ratio to identify homosexuality, developmental disorders, such as dyslexia, which can be defined in terms of literacy deficiencies, and aggressive vs. passive personalitity traits.

http://viewzone2.com/fingersx.html

Gayle in MD
09-21-2010, 07:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some random thoughts here...

Our society has slowly but surely began gaining more acceptance for homosexuality. I think that's great, I have many gay friends and believe they have just as much a right to be as happy and/or miserable as the rest of us /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif We're still a long way off from total acceptance, but it does in fact seem the proverbial "we" have begun to accept the "born that way" aspect of the debates. Again, I think this is a good thing. To each their own and their own pursuit of happiness and lifestyle. This is one topic I'm actually probably more left of center on (Gayle smiles there).

OK, so given the big IF we accept such a thing as being genetic or a condition that one is born into and cannot help... then wouldn't the same consideration have to be given to other groups? What about pedophiles? What if they are born and cannot help a sexual/physical attraction to children? Bestiality? Or any other similar group society does not deem "normal" but rather perverse, sick, and often illegal (recall at one time homosexuality would fall into the same 'mentally ill' class as these groups would).

This is not to say I in any way endorse or support such people. Just a thought on society, human nature, psychology, and genetics. Taking personal feelings aside, and focusing simply on the "born this way" ideal, what are your thoughts?

And go (let's see who has the guts to touch this one lol)....

Sack </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so given the big IF we accept such a thing as being genetic or a condition that one is born into and cannot help... then wouldn't the same consideration have to be given to other groups? What about pedophiles? What if they are born and cannot help a sexual/physical attraction to children? Bestiality? Or any other similar group society does not deem "normal" but rather perverse, sick, and often illegal (recall at one time homosexuality would fall into the same 'mentally ill' class as these groups would).
</div></div>


<span style="color: #FF0000">Apples and oranges again? The problem is that being a homosexual doesn't involve forcing one's self upon another, who is defenseless.

Now, I've already posted the studies which show that the supposed link between homosexuality, and pedophilia, is a myth, and that pedophilia is a condition that shows up in both heterosexuals and homosexuals, and more os in the former, so letting that go, we have laws to protect children, and animals, hence, the analogy is false to begin with.

However, we do see a lack of action taken to protect children from pedophiles, when a religious sect takes part in abuse, hence, nothing is done about Mormons and Priests, for far too long.

New statisctics say that one in four young women will be raped before they graduate college, are they raped by homosexuals? I don't think so.

Moreover, we have one party who believes that women, and children who are rape and incest victimes, should be forced to bring the resulting fetus to term, regardless of their emotional, or physical state.

Is that someone's idea of freedom?

Forcing one group of people to deny who they are in order to have a job, or serve in the military, for example, is not equal rights for all. Funny that the party which has such a problem with the reality of homosexuality, is the party which seems to have more homosexuals in it, don't you think????

The psychological problem involved is not homosexuality, it is homophobia.



G.



</span>

sack316
09-21-2010, 09:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apples and oranges again? The problem is that being a homosexual doesn't involve forcing one's self upon another, who is defenseless.

Now, I've already posted the studies which show that the supposed link between homosexuality, and pedophilia, is a myth, and that pedophilia is a condition that shows up in both heterosexuals and homosexuals, and more os in the former, so letting that go, we have laws to protect children, and animals, hence, the analogy is false to begin with.

However, we do see a lack of action taken to protect children from pedophiles, when a religious sect takes part in abuse, hence, nothing is done about Mormons and Priests, for far too long.

New statisctics say that one in four young women will be raped before they graduate college, are they raped by homosexuals? I don't think so.

Moreover, we have one party who believes that women, and children who are rape and incest victimes, should be forced to bring the resulting fetus to term, regardless of their emotional, or physical state.

Is that someone's idea of freedom?

Forcing one group of people to deny who they are in order to have a job, or serve in the military, for example, is not equal rights for all. Funny that the party which has such a problem with the reality of homosexuality, is the party which seems to have more homosexuals in it, don't you think????

The psychological problem involved is not homosexuality, it is homophobia.



G.

</div></div>

G please don't misunderstand... I am in no way attempting to create any kind of link or comparison between two such things. The acts are, in themselves, two VERY different things.

What I am attempting to gather opinions on here in the mental side of things. I used homosexuality as my opening example because it is a behavior once considered deviant, but over time has become accepted (errr... much more widely accepted at least). There was a time not very long ago where even you (the proverbial 'you', not 'Gayle') would have placed all these groups into one category.

I also am IN NO WAY attempting to create a link between homosexuality and illegal/immoral behavior. Just making sure that is clear.

But I am asking and looking into the "born that way" idea, and IF (big if) such an anomaly exists in the mind of other groups we may be much more sensitive about.

That has nothing to do with party lines, and no need to bring the politics/abortion/don't ask don't tell/etc. into the discussion. It's pretty simple: is it possible that those who practice what we consider 'deviant, immoral, and illegal' behavior are born that way--- and as such--- cannot help their urges? This doesn't excuse the behavior by any means, but it can change how we look at and attempt to resolve the core issues. (then again, that part could spark a whole new debate about rewiring).

Anyway, just thought I'd clarify what the discussion (on my part) was actually about. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts as I do believe you have done some study in psych (?). Just think of it as person (a) or behavior (a) and not as "pedophile" or "homosexual" or anything that sparks personal emotion. The brain and genetics is the concern here.

Sack

Gayle in MD
09-21-2010, 09:46 AM
Genetics cannot ever be an excuse for aggression which hurts others.

I am reminded of the poor woman who suffered from Post Natal Depression, who drowned her children.

They sought ot uses the insanity defense, which, IMO, was true, she was insane at the time that she committed such a horrendous act.

Mental illness if a truly horrible affliction, that people ARE born with.

Here, I am trying to take the discussion away from sexual situations, and to a more easily understood example, by using the menatlly ill, insanity defense.

Society creates laws to protect living human beings, from being hurt by others. That is the basis of our laws. I don't see genetics being a blanket bye or excuse for those who perpetrate murder, or any other harmful attack upon others.

The reason why, is because "The decision to think, is the basis of self esteem, and becoming mentally well adjusted."

Some people give into their immediate gratification, without concern about their more important long range goals. Even those who are mentally ill, if they choose to bring children into the world, should think about their available tools, within their personal capacity, to raises them and lover them, and create the safety for them to become happy, healthy human beings.

In the incident of the tgragic drownings, IMO, and while I have great compassion for the poor woman who drowned her children, she was nevertheless remise, in that she never, apparently, decided to "Think" about the appropriateness of continuing to have children, knowing that she suffered from a very promouonced tendency toward extreme post partum depression.

Her husband was just as negligent, IMO, to continue to have children with her.

The question is answered simply, the only thing that is real, is what you DO. Genetics, IMO, can never be an excuse for harming other human being. As long as we have a brain, and we are not mentally retarded in our ability "to think" psysiologically speaking, then we are responsible for our actions.

G.

Deeman3
09-21-2010, 10:17 AM
The real problem with the mental illness defense is the difficulty of proof of mental condition. The woman who drowned her children was an obvious case of a person who was sick. However, it is argued that mental illness is absolutely necessary in some cases of rape/murder, for instance. It may be a matter of degree or condition. Most would agree that a person who takes sexual satisfaction at the price of another's life is imballanced and many are, in fact, sociapaths. Some are born that way, some are made through being the subject of abuse themselves and other environmental influences. The burden of proof in mental defenses has to be very high, as serial rapists, killers and such can be "cured" therefore, and we have seen this, free to be "sick" again.

We have seen people "cured" of their mental illness re-offend becuase they refuse to take their meds. We have seen them "cured" of being a petaphyle and released to society re-offend at alarming rates. Many extreamsit Muslims may have mental illness and, so far, Saudi treatments have seen dozens released after "re-education" programs.

There can be little fairness in this. What do you attribute to mental illness, drug abuse (many claiming that as an excuse), family history of abuse? A white middle class woman may be treated differently than a large black man when heard in court.

In the end, society has decided, for the msot part, that certain crimes have to be punished or at least the offender taking out of polite society for the duration.

So, your last statement is true, "we are responsible for our actions." Any other excuse weakenes the system and increases risk to innocent people. I have always thought the answer might be if the judges who release violent criminals as sick, then cured would step up and agree the serve along with the re-offender if it should occur, the issue would be much less likely to come up. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Deeman3
09-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Think, the Twinkie Defense!!!! I know, i know, that involved a homosexual but not a part of the insanity plot! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


Insanely Hungry!!!

Captain Thomas Dudley and a fellow sailor murder and eat the cabin boy after 20 days lost at sea. Their death sentences are commuted to six months in prison. It was 1884, a sh*tty time to be a cabin boy.
PMS Female barkeep, Sandie Craddock, stabs a co-worker to death in 1981 and blames her menstrual cycle. The judge buys it, charges dropped to manslaughter with probation. Co-workers never ask her to swap shifts again.
Sleepwalking Kenneth Parks drives 14 miles to his in-laws' home and beats his mother-in-law to death with a tire iron. Parks' lawyers used sleepwalking as a defense. He was acquitted of murder in 1988.
Oral Sex
Charged with manslaughter in 1999 after her boyfriend was thrown from a convertible, Heather Specyalski says she couldn't have been driving as she was blowing her boyfriend. Paramedics found his dead body with his pants down. Specyalski was acquitted of all charges.
Male Enhancement Drug Ralph Leon Jackson shoots two people on the Blue Ridge Parkway in 2010 and blames his male enhancement drug for making his mind "foggy." Surprisingly his pecker is apparently longer with unusually impressive girth.

Gayle in MD
09-21-2010, 10:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real problem with the mental illness defense is the difficulty of proof of mental condition. The woman who drowned her children was an obvious case of a person who was sick. However, it is argued that mental illness is absolutely necessary in some cases of rape/murder, for instance. It may be a matter of degree or condition. Most would agree that a person who takes sexual satisfaction at the price of another's life is imballanced and many are, in fact, sociapaths. Some are born that way, some are made through being the subject of abuse themselves and other environmental influences. The burden of proof in mental defenses has to be very high, as serial rapists, killers and such can be "cured" therefore, and we have seen this, free to be "sick" again.

We have seen people "cured" of their mental illness re-offend becuase they refuse to take their meds. We have seen them "cured" of being a petaphyle and released to society re-offend at alarming rates. Many extreamsit Muslims may have mental illness and, so far, Saudi treatments have seen dozens released after "re-education" programs.

There can be little fairness in this. What do you attribute to mental illness, drug abuse (many claiming that as an excuse), family history of abuse? A white middle class woman may be treated differently than a large black man when heard in court.

In the end, society has decided, for the msot part, that certain crimes have to be punished or at least the offender taking out of polite society for the duration.

So, your last statement is true, "we are responsible for our actions." Any other excuse weakenes the system and increases risk to innocent people. I have always thought the answer might be if the judges who release violent criminals as sick, then cured would step up and agree the serve along with the re-offender if it should occur, the issue would be much less likely to come up. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

</div></div>

I am of the opinion that where there is DNA proof of rape, the rape of anyone, child, adult, man or woman, child molestation, or murder, the perp should be executed.

Today's rapist, or child molester is tomorrow's murderer.

I do not think they can be cured, because it is the power and violence that they experience as gratifying.

The only exception to execution, IMO, are those times when the the perp, or perps, were themselves victims over years, who finally just couldn't take it amymore, and killed their attacker.

G.

Deeman3
09-21-2010, 01:28 PM
We pretty much agree here. Once a person, it seems, cannot control their lust or whatever to the point they are willing to kill or permantely damage another for a mear satisfaction of their carnal needs, society is wasting their time to redeem them in any way.

There is not crime, short of mass genicide that is so horrible.

I can't imagine how a family would feel if their child, son or daughter was molested and/or killed by someone released from incarceration after doing this type thing once or more times before. This is one "debt to society" I just can't see anyone ever really paying for and how many among us want to give them the chance to do it again?

Sadly, this type thing happens in Africa hundreds of times a day and is almost always "forgiven" by the courts and government. And we wonder why it never gets better there?

Deeman3
09-21-2010, 01:40 PM
While not as serious a crime as the others we are discussing, this woman (Mother!) is already preparing her mental defense.

INDIANAPOLIS A woman charged in the deaths of two of her children told officers she locked them and three siblings inside a closet so she could visit a neighbor, then found the boy and girl dead when she returned about 10 hours later, authorities said.

An Indianapolis police report released Tuesday said Edyan Farah, 28, told officers she "was not in her right mind" when she allegedly put the five children in an upstairs closet about 6 a.m. Sunday and placed a bed in front of the door so they couldn't get out. Police said the closet was about 6 feet long and 18 inches deep.

Farah, an immigrant from Somalia, found her 5-year-old daughter and 3-year-old son "stiff and unresponsive" when she returned home about 10 1/2 hours later and opened the closet, the report said. She told officers she then carried them downstairs, but did not call 911 or try to revive them, according to the report.

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Updated 63 minutes ago Study: Teacher bonuses don't raise test scores
..On Monday, Farah was charged with two preliminary counts of neglect of a dependent resulting in death. She remained jailed Tuesday on a $200,000 bond and was scheduled to be formally charged Wednesday, said Julio Fernandez, a spokesman for the Marion County Jail.

Susan Decker, a spokeswoman for the county prosecutor's office, said Tuesday she did not know whether Farah had an attorney. She said the prosecutor's office had no comment on the case, adding that "everything is still under investigation at this point."

Lt. Jeff Duhamell said the three surviving children are now in foster care.

sack316
09-21-2010, 03:11 PM
Gayle, that last post of yours took this to a good direction, since I think most everyone chimed in on the original part that is going to say anything.

And, like Dee, I agree with you on what you said there.

There is a conference here in Prattville in a few weeks, discussing the ever more prevalent link between adult sociopaths (rapists, murderers, violent offenders) and their childhood actions. Namely that a large percentage of these people showed signs of this growing up, generally in the abuse of animals, siblings/friends/classmates, and sometimes even parents.

I suppose a good question at this point is simply where the line should be drawn as far as putting a stop to this. Myself, you, and deeman are obviously on the same page here on punishment for such offenders as adults. But I seriously doubt we'd say "go ahead and wipe out the 8 year old who just beat the crap out of a dog" without at least giving him a fighting chance of rehabilitation and a life.

So at what point do we decide certain behavior is beyond repair? Is there an age limit? Do we wait until an offender begins harming humans before taking drastic action? etc. etc. etc. (I do realize this is easier judged on a case by case basis... but in general, what do y'all think?)

Sack

Deeman3
09-21-2010, 04:15 PM
Sack,

The other problem is intervention vs. personal freedom. If the subject youth, for instance, is in a failed family, Mom a crack whore, Dad a distant memory how do you intercede? Try to in some cases and the ACLU will nail you for uneeded interference with the family function.

I am afraid there are some lost causes. Like our schools, some day, you have to make the distinction between those who can make it and get an education at the possible loss of those who don't care and just show up to avoid jail. Big Brothers, a good idea, just won't work on the scales we are seeing now with the gangs having the most influence on the kids. Because we want to save everyone will we lose the majority? I am not sure but what we are doing now is a big failure. Like entitlement breeds entitlement, violent families breed violent children. Violent children become violent adults and a large percentage become abusive.

Even if we once had the luxury of throwing money at it, it did not work. The only thing that is even parly effective is early identification of risky individuals and isolation of them fomr the people at risk.

Of course, the real answer is a good family which we have purposely decided to modernize and adapt to more socially acceptable descriptions. I would say there are more examples of even single working mothers with sane,good kids than there are of fully state supported welfare families but we give much more support to the latter than the former. We reward those who have 12 kids more than the responsible ones who have two or three. This passes for acceptance and tolerance but ends up making the family a dying model anymore.

Do I want to wipe out the 8 year old kid who sets a dog on fire? No! But the only way we are allowed to deal with it is the courts in the end. Until a social worker or school see the kid living in hell, we can't intervien and we sure don't need to judge the right of the family to express themselves until the kid moves from dogs to other kids.

It is sad but will get much worse. We can barely deal with the rich kids in our mental health system, the really poor kids are just not going to be important until they can vote or produce oil.

Sev
09-21-2010, 04:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder why there is only one species on the planet where homosexuality exists. Seems logical to me that if it were natural, it would show up in the rest of the animal world.

(Although I do wonder sometimes about Yogi and Boo-Boo!)

Steve </div></div>

Actually thats not quite true Steve.

Sev
09-21-2010, 05:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Genetics cannot ever be an excuse for aggression which hurts others.

I am reminded of the poor woman who suffered from Post Natal Depression, who drowned her children.

They sought ot uses the insanity defense, which, IMO, was true, she was insane at the time that she committed such a horrendous act.

Mental illness if a truly horrible affliction, that people ARE born with.

Here, I am trying to take the discussion away from sexual situations, and to a more easily understood example, by using the menatlly ill, insanity defense.

Society creates laws to protect living human beings, from being hurt by others. That is the basis of our laws. I don't see genetics being a blanket bye or excuse for those who perpetrate murder, or any other harmful attack upon others.

The reason why, is because "The decision to think, is the basis of self esteem, and becoming mentally well adjusted."

Some people give into their immediate gratification, without concern about their more important long range goals. Even those who are mentally ill, if they choose to bring children into the world, should think about their available tools, within their personal capacity, to raises them and lover them, and create the safety for them to become happy, healthy human beings.

In the incident of the tgragic drownings, IMO, and while I have great compassion for the poor woman who drowned her children, she was nevertheless remise, in that she never, apparently, decided to "Think" about the appropriateness of continuing to have children, knowing that she suffered from a very promouonced tendency toward extreme post partum depression.

Her husband was just as negligent, IMO, to continue to have children with her.

The question is answered simply, the only thing that is real, is what you DO. Genetics, IMO, can never be an excuse for harming other human being. As long as we have a brain, and we are not mentally retarded in our ability "to think" psysiologically speaking, then we are responsible for our actions.

G. </div></div>

There is a distinct difference between mental illness and genetic programing.
Any given member of any species will never react the same to any given stimulus.

Sev
09-21-2010, 05:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real problem with the mental illness defense is the difficulty of proof of mental condition. The woman who drowned her children was an obvious case of a person who was sick. However, it is argued that mental illness is absolutely necessary in some cases of rape/murder, for instance. It may be a matter of degree or condition. Most would agree that a person who takes sexual satisfaction at the price of another's life is imballanced and many are, in fact, sociapaths. Some are born that way, some are made through being the subject of abuse themselves and other environmental influences. The burden of proof in mental defenses has to be very high, as serial rapists, killers and such can be "cured" therefore, and we have seen this, free to be "sick" again.

We have seen people "cured" of their mental illness re-offend becuase they refuse to take their meds. We have seen them "cured" of being a petaphyle and released to society re-offend at alarming rates. Many extreamsit Muslims may have mental illness and, so far, Saudi treatments have seen dozens released after "re-education" programs.

There can be little fairness in this. What do you attribute to mental illness, drug abuse (many claiming that as an excuse), family history of abuse? A white middle class woman may be treated differently than a large black man when heard in court.

In the end, society has decided, for the msot part, that certain crimes have to be punished or at least the offender taking out of polite society for the duration.

So, your last statement is true, "we are responsible for our actions." Any other excuse weakenes the system and increases risk to innocent people. I have always thought the answer might be if the judges who release violent criminals as sick, then cured would step up and agree the serve along with the re-offender if it should occur, the issue would be much less likely to come up. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

</div></div>

I am of the opinion that where there is DNA proof of rape, the rape of anyone, child, adult, man or woman, child molestation, or murder, the perp should be executed.

Today's rapist, or child molester is tomorrow's murderer.

I do not think they can be cured, because it is the power and violence that they experience as gratifying.

The only exception to execution, IMO, are those times when the the perp, or perps, were themselves victims over years, who finally just couldn't take it amymore, and killed their attacker.

G.

</div></div>

Agreed.

Gayle in MD
09-21-2010, 09:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gayle, that last post of yours took this to a good direction, since I think most everyone chimed in on the original part that is going to say anything.

And, like Dee, I agree with you on what you said there.

There is a conference here in Prattville in a few weeks, discussing the ever more prevalent link between adult sociopaths (rapists, murderers, violent offenders) and their childhood actions. Namely that a large percentage of these people showed signs of this growing up, generally in the abuse of animals, siblings/friends/classmates, and sometimes even parents.

I suppose a good question at this point is simply where the line should be drawn as far as putting a stop to this. Myself, you, and deeman are obviously on the same page here on punishment for such offenders as adults. But I seriously doubt we'd say "go ahead and wipe out the 8 year old who just beat the crap out of a dog" without at least giving him a fighting chance of rehabilitation and a life.

So at what point do we decide certain behavior is beyond repair? Is there an age limit? Do we wait until an offender begins harming humans before taking drastic action? etc. etc. etc. (I do realize this is easier judged on a case by case basis... but in general, what do y'all think?)

Sack </div></div>

I think that in a perfect world, we'd have many adults who are eager and willing to devote themselves to giving such chhildren enough attention, love and direction, to change the bad path they are on, but we don't live in a perfecgt world.

As in most problems of society, poor parenting skills are at the core of our dysfunction.

We should definitely have more programs available for children who have abnormal behavior patterns, and our teachers should have the training to watch for the signs.

The problem is that often school officials do not want to see children who are a problem in school, come back the next day with bruises from the parents. Much, is never addressed, for that reason.


Foster care is a poor substitute for loveing, caring parents, just as institutional warehousing, fails completely.

When children display anti-social behavior, depression, or violent tendencies, parents should seek psychological help for them. Sadly, the parents are often children of abusers, who were children of abusers. Hence, the problem is passed on and on, generation to generation.

These tragic circumstances, BTW, have no social or economic lines, it happens in all segments of society.

The sad conclusion is usually foster homes, which do not usually provide the love that was missing at the outset, nor the attention.

As a society, we put kids in foster homes, or in some form of incarceration, or institutionalization, which only leads to their feeling even less attached to society, Charles Manson is a sterling example of that.

Sex education would of course be one of the things we could do as a society, to lesson the numbers of psychologically challenged children, but the tragedy lies in the fact that under the child's anti-social, problems, there is the feeling of worthlessness. In fact, one could say that low self-esteem, is the breeding bed for all mental illness, and particularly for violent tendencies.

Some children can escape any and every negative impact on their psychological health, while others, seem destined to absorb everything negative, and take it to the worst conclusion.

Again, the decision to think, marks the difference between them.

The child who grows up in a dysfunctional home, who happens to be a thinker, and have an appetite for compassion, will see events around them which are inappropriate, in a very different way, than perhaps would his brother or sister, who don't happen to have talents and interests which provide them other opportunites for self realization, self expression, and success, IOW, other opportunities for building self-esteem, outside the context of the dysfunctional family.

That child, a survivor, may feel completely inappropriate, and a thorn to their parents, unfit, within the context of their dysfunctional family, but he or she will never feel unfit for the world.

IMO, we come into the world to a very large degree, with certain tools for living, inherent in our personalities. Watchful adults within the community, who are charitable with their time, can bring about amazing opportunities for these children. Social programs for disturbed children, are very worthwhile, and should be promoted and financed, far more than they are, and society's costs, in the long run, would be far less, if we as a society were more willing to invest in them, and particularly so in these times when so much is missing from our educational system, which used to provide more opportunites in the field of arts, sports, and other life enforcing venues.

G.

sack316
09-22-2010, 03:02 PM
and society's costs, in the long run, would be far less, if we as a society were more willing to invest in them...

G.

[/quote]

I completely agree here as well. Investing early in the "problem" youth is still far cheaper than paying for their potential incarceration as adults. And it pays off twofold, first as mentioned above... and second as (hopefully) productive members of society. And in many cases, even pay off in a third way, as future mentors to children of similar backgrounds.

We can only dream...

Sack

Deeman3
09-22-2010, 03:52 PM
Sack,

There is no political payoff for the things you and Gayle have mentioned, quite well i might say, without any political namecalling. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Everything said is true. If the solutions could be done without any consideration for cost the dream would be much closer but, sadly all our politicans play on the advantages they can derive from this, All of them!