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View Full Version : Waiting for Superman. Our failing school systems.



Sev
09-27-2010, 06:38 AM
On the heals of Runaway Slave comes Waiting for Superman.

http://film.waitingforsuperman.com/videos

hondo
09-27-2010, 08:04 AM
Well, I'm going to break my vow this once. Clan rejoice.

One of the reasons I looked forward to retirement was the hopelessness and helplessness I felt at trying to reach my students.

I used to boast that every one of my students would understand Macbeth and be able to pass the test when we finished the play,
and for many years that was true.
The last few years I taught I had many students who didn't
know who Macbeth was, let alone Banquo and Ross.

Early in the play there's a fight to the death described betweem Macbeth and Macdonwald.
I would ask my students who won and they would say Macdonwald.
I'd say, "Shouldn't the play be called Macdonwald, then?"

They would put on the test that Macbeth's wife was Lady Macduff even when Lady Macbeth was one of the choices.

Many of my students could barely keep their eyes open from
drug, booze, and sex the night before.

Who do you blame? Teachers' unions? Why?
Administration? Certainly a little.
Teachers? How?
State Dept. of Ed? ????

This area was a largely Republican Bible-belt, mainly Church of Christ and Pentecostal.
But many of my kids had one working parent only trying to raise them or no parental influence at all.

For years I told them they needed Senior English to pass and this worked. The last 5 or 6 years I taught they could care less.

We had an excellent staff and our test scores were number one in the state which was pretty scary because I knew that our so-called average kids didn't know much about anything.

You tell me what the solution is.

Deeman3
09-27-2010, 09:20 AM
Hondo,

This is the most serious issue facing us now. In many cases, there are no good answers. I am hoping this exposure of the system for what it has become helps us fix it.

There are some successful progrmas out there and we need to support them. The President has now said it is not only money, that bad teachers need to be gottne out of the system. There will be some hard choices and we will have tosee if they can be made in this political climate. I am hopeful.

I can tell you my solutions and will if this thread remains serious and thoughtful.

eg8r
09-27-2010, 02:36 PM
My solution is to drop Macbeth. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif It does very little for the mass population flowing through the class and since most of these kids have a very little attention span you might as well be trying to force them to learn a trade or something they can use in the real world.

eg8r

hondo
09-27-2010, 05:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hondo,

This is the most serious issue facing us now. In many cases, there are no good answers. I am hoping this exposure of the system for what it has become helps us fix it.

There are some successful progrmas out there and we need to support them. The President has now said it is not only money, that bad teachers need to be gottne out of the system. There will be some hard choices and we will have tosee if they can be made in this political climate. I am hopeful.

I can tell you my solutions and will if this thread remains serious and thoughtful. </div></div>

I'm still not sure what "exposure of the system" means.
As I tried to point out, just exactly who has been exposed?

I'm sure there are bad teachers out there and I have encountered a few. Most of the teachers in my county were excellent.
Also, my wife's county and the county where my kids attended had many fine teachers.

I will say That I HAVE NEVER SEEN the teachers" union protect
a bad teacher in my county.
If a bad teacher was identified, they were gone.
That may not be true elsewhere.

hondo
09-27-2010, 05:07 PM
In response to one poster's comments I think as we continue to
eliminate great literature and the arts from our curriculum,
we are finding more and more folks with no imagination, no creativity, no sense of humor, less and less ability to think for themselves and understand the little nuances of info that can help them discern truth from truthyness.

I am all in favor of more vocational classes, however.
It would be nice if we could teach them a trade along with the abilty to think.

Sev
09-27-2010, 07:00 PM
Good post Hondo.

hondo
09-27-2010, 08:37 PM
Thank you.

LWW
09-28-2010, 02:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I think as we continue to
eliminate great literature and the arts from our curriculum,
we are finding more and more folks with no imagination, no creativity, no sense of humor, less and less ability to think for themselves and understand the little nuances of info that can help them discern truth from truthyness."
-hondo speaking on modern education-</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."
-Orwell speaking on modern education-</div></div>

You are so close to an epiphany brother, moments like this are why I have never gave up on you.

LWW

Qtec
09-28-2010, 04:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you might as well be trying to force them to learn a trade or something they can use in the real world.

eg8r </div></div>

Are you now calling for Govt intervention?

Q

Qtec
09-28-2010, 04:08 AM
Another point.

If you have dumb uneducated parents, what do you learn at home?

To stop the cycle you have to go to the source. Who become parents? Today's kids.

IMO education should have priority over everything else. Its your future.

Q

LWW
09-28-2010, 04:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another point.

If you have dumb uneducated parents, what do you learn at home?

To stop the cycle you have to go to the source. Who become parents? Today's kids.

IMO education should have priority over everything else. Its your future.

Q </div></div>

You also are close to an epiphany.

The feds took over education in the late 70's and we now have today's kids having children later in life because they are too ill prepared for the world that many are still living at home into their 30's.

This is where you bleat <span style='font-size: 11pt'>B-B-B-BUT B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!!</span>

LWW

Qtec
09-28-2010, 04:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The feds took over education in the late 70's </div></div>

So before that, everything was OK?

Q

LWW
09-28-2010, 05:12 AM
We led the world.

Does that answer your question?

Let me guess ... <span style='font-size: 11pt'>B-B-B-BUT B-B-B-BOOOOSH!!!!</span>

LWW

LWW
09-28-2010, 05:14 AM
Explain to us how your right to work 9 months a year at above average pay and then retire prior to age 60 with full benefits was more important than allowing drug addicted, alcoholic, incompetent, and pedophilia practicing teachers from the classroom.

Is that enough reason to blame the NEA ... that they fought against actual education reform?

LWW

hondo
09-28-2010, 05:53 AM
For a while, all the Right wing talking heads were clamoring
that home schooling was so much better than public schools.
It was a ridiculous argument as so few parents would have any kind of background to give their kids what they need.

I did have a number of parents over the years who probably could
have taught their kids how to convert coke to crack or how to suck a ... never mind, you get the point.

Sev
09-28-2010, 05:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The feds took over education in the late 70's </div></div>

So before that, everything was OK?

Q </div></div>

The educational system will never be perfect.
However the constant tinkering with the system, unions being more concerned with their members than education combined with a cultural change that started with the boomer generation has culminated in a situation that has made it virtually impossible for students to learn and proficient teachers to ply their trade in a productive manner.

Everything starts in the home. The beginning of the failure of education in America began with the failure of the Greatest generation to rein their children and instill in them the all the values of their parents and grandparents. Succeeding generations have received even less.

We are now in a situation where we are 6 generations in since the boomers were born. 6 generations of individuals that are lacking to some extent if not all the values that the greatest generation were taught by their parents. Divorces and out of wedlock pregnancies have proliferated as has the amount of single parents.
People without traditional values are attempting to teach children without traditional values.
The foundation of teaching and the principles used to teach have shifted while at the same time there is chaos in the class rooms generated by unrestrained children.
The situation generally becomes worse the closer you get to the inner cities where cultural differences between the races become most apparent.

The answer to the fall in education in America does not involve more money. Money can not make an unwilling or uninterested student learn.
Only a strong nuclear family that is determined to see their children learn and succeed can. Some times that requires parents to be able to punish their children without fear of child protective services becoming involved.
Which is another group that was created due the lack of values that have been instilled multiple generations of children.

We are in a cycle of personal regression and decline in our behavior. It will take generations to correct the situation.

However. Government interference and throwing money at it are not a solution.
A return to traditional values and being tough on children is. Somewhere along the way childhood changed from being the preparatory step to the rest of your life to being something sacrosanct as being nothing but a time of no responsibilities, fun and play.
This does not work. Chores, teaching personal responsibility and ethics combined with play time as being a reward does.

Classical conditioning almost always works when implemented properly.

LWW
09-28-2010, 06:01 AM
Tell us about any alcoholic drug addict with a criminal record that was allowed into the educational system which you might know about?

LWW

hondo
09-28-2010, 06:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The feds took over education in the late 70's </div></div>

So before that, everything was OK?

Q </div></div>

Q, I'm no fan of federal mandates on education either.
The worst I saw in my 30 years was Bush's NCLB which
brought gridlock to the classroom. Poorly conceived, poorly funded. Created many of the problems that I pointed out where LWW was so proud of my "epiphany."
Even before that, the whole mainstreaming special ed students into regular classrooms has been a mess to deal with.

I have found interference at the state level to be even more obstructive.

But, this whole idea that our schools have been trashed by federal interference is simply more simplistic nonsense by the Right wingers who are quick to point fingers but are clueless as to the problems facing classroom teachers because these nay-sayers have never been near a classroom since they got out of school.

I feel our society is in serious trouble but all this partisan finger pointing is simply un-enlightened booshwah.

hondo
09-28-2010, 06:20 AM
A lot of truth in that.

hondo
09-28-2010, 06:26 AM
Well, guys, it's been fun. I've enjoyed the discussion, but, as usual, LWW is now resorting to personal attacks so I'll bow out.

Another good thread trashed becausae of that bitter, hate-filled moron.

Sev
09-28-2010, 06:40 AM
We really have never been far apart on the topic of education Hondo.

We are bearing witness to the fruits born of an event that had nothing to do with the government or educational system.
Rather than trying to correct the situation at the source we have been trying to correct it at a time and place where such success is very difficult to achieve.
Society as been spiraling towards chaos since the boomer generation. In an attempt to stem it fixes from the government level have been attempted and failed and in many cases have caused more problems with the addition and abuse of more bureaucracies.
The continual rise in our societal problems can be traced directly back to the children of the Greatest Generation.
While there are both problems in the educational system and government programs the source of the problem can be found in the home.
I am painting with a broad brush, but in general the students currently being taught are being raised by either a parent of both parents that have no traditional values or understanding how to raise their children in that manner.

This one step or lack there of in our development is the single greatest factor in the rest of societies problems. It is a common theme. One that it seems many are either oblivious to or for various reasons do not want to address directly.

A system of raising children that worked has slipped through our fingers and has yet to be reclaimed.

Chopstick
09-28-2010, 06:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But many of my kids had one working parent only trying to raise them or no parental influence at all.
</div></div>

I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. If this is not the sole cause then it is surely the beginning. The reason that any species pair bonds is because it dramatically increases the survival ability of the young. The sex, drugs and rock and roll generation, took all that away. It is only natural that they should produce a generation of failures. Right now today, India has more honors students than America has students.

Sev
09-28-2010, 06:59 AM
Chopstick you need to trace it back to the Boomers. The 50's generation was allowed to run wild. That is where the cycle began. It caused a cultural shift that has not only impacted the children but has caused any number of problems to radiate out from it.

Imagine if you will where we would be socially and economically if the Boomers were raised as their parents had been and they continued the legacy.
Many of the bureaucracies of our government would either not exist or be far smaller and less powerful.

Sev
09-28-2010, 07:01 AM
Was that really necessary?

Deeman3
09-28-2010, 08:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hondo,

This is the most serious issue facing us now. In many cases, there are no good answers. I am hoping this exposure of the system for what it has become helps us fix it.

There are some successful progrmas out there and we need to support them. The President has now said it is not only money, that bad teachers need to be gottne out of the system. There will be some hard choices and we will have tosee if they can be made in this political climate. I am hopeful.

I can tell you my solutions and will if this thread remains serious and thoughtful. </div></div>

I'm still not sure what "exposure of the system" means.
As I tried to point out, just exactly who has been exposed?

I'm sure there are bad teachers out there and I have encountered a few. Most of the teachers in my county were excellent.
Also, my wife's county and the county where my kids attended had many fine teachers.

I will say That I HAVE NEVER SEEN the teachers" union protect
a bad teacher in my county.
If a bad teacher was identified, they were gone.
That may not be true elsewhere.

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">If you have not seen these teachers protected, then you are almost alone. Many young teachers are speacking out about the system and how the union makes it impossible to teache or to fire the bad ones.

Respectfully, maybe you were too close to see it! If you doubt the truth of the plight of the American education system, just watch Jersey Shore or Jat Leno's Jaywalking interviews. Many of his subjects identify themselves as public school teachers.

I know bad teachers are only a part of this but if you are of that system, maybe you couldn't see this problem from that close up.

If you defend the status quo like the teacher;s unions are now doing, you are not going to be part of a positive solution, are you? </span>

LWW
09-28-2010, 11:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, guys, it's been fun. I've enjoyed the discussion, but, as usual, LWW is now resorting to personal attacks so I'll bow out.

Another good thread trashed becausae of that bitter, hate-filled moron. </div></div>

How did I do that?

Was this teacher a friend of yours?

LWW

Sev
09-29-2010, 05:03 AM
Watched part of Larry King last night. He had some of the individuals in the movie on.

Seems they felt that the only thing that parents could do is provide a receptive area for children to be able to do their homework. They pretty much denigrated the idea that parents had the ability to help with algebra and chemistry homework. Which may be true in many cases but not all.

They seemed to avoid indicating that the parents were responsible for preparing their children for school or life in any manner. It would seem they are our of touch in this area.

And of course a black member on the panel brought racism to the table after LK brought it up.

Deeman3
09-29-2010, 08:06 AM
We just need to pay these teachers more money and make tenure automatice and everything will be fine. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif