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Chopstick
10-01-2010, 03:02 PM
<span style="color: #000099">Wasn't me.</span> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

<span style="color: #000099">It's a PDF file about a hundred pages long. Basically it was caused by computerized trading. A trader at a firm put in an automated order to sell 4 billion in E-mini contracts. Since there are no longer any liquidity providers like us, because we just get chewed up by the flash trading computers, the order blew through all of the liquidity in the entire market in about 20 minutes. Accenture a $40 stock actually traded for one penny.
</span>
http://www.sec.gov/news/studies/2010/marketevents-report.pdf

<span style="color: #000099">If anyone is interested, one of the senior traders at our firm is an expert on this subject, sub-pennying and flash trading. He has been on CNBC a couple of times and he has testified before the SEC twice. The first time he testified was before the Flash Crash warning them that it could happen. They called him the day after the crash and ask him to come back and tell them some more about it. I think they got the first part of the report from him.

Here is a link to his website and his article on the flash crash.
</span>
Defend Trading (http://www.defendtrading.com/)

Article on the Flash Crash. (http://www.defendtrading.com/cfm.v21.n5.15.pdf)

Deeman3
10-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Chopstick,

I respect your opinion with the possible exception of how to tie up women and store them in your trunk.

There are many out there almost trapped in 401K plans that are tied to the market. Aside from getting into guaranteed bond accounts, do they have many options other than staying in the market. I know Wolfie dabbles in the market as do I but I most of mine in about 3 401K's a couple over 25 years old. I have rode the ups and down with them so I don't plan to do much else until; I want them in 6 to 10 years.

What do you think? Hey, if you coach my one pocket, you can coach my retirement! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

By the way, this guy can help anyone's aiming and one pocket game....but never take his advice on women, most will leave you and hurt you if you do. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

cushioncrawler
10-01-2010, 05:11 PM
Chops -- So what!!! Who cares what the Down Joes duz or duznt do!!
The usofa cake iz produced by the production of producers.
The stock market iz a pox -- it iz for non-producers, who dont produce anything -- except money for themselves -- with which they get a bigger share of the cake.
Why shood i care if some non-producers grab a bit of money from other non-producers -- due to a windfall or something.
While non-producers are in uproar, in the confines of their lairs, real life and real production go on, thank God.
mac.

Chopstick
10-03-2010, 10:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chopstick,

I respect your opinion with the possible exception of how to tie up women and store them in your trunk.

There are many out there almost trapped in 401K plans that are tied to the market. Aside from getting into guaranteed bond accounts, do they have many options other than staying in the market. I know Wolfie dabbles in the market as do I but I most of mine in about 3 401K's a couple over 25 years old. I have rode the ups and down with them so I don't plan to do much else until; I want them in 6 to 10 years.

What do you think? Hey, if you coach my one pocket, you can coach my retirement! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

By the way, this guy can help anyone's aiming and one pocket game....but never take his advice on women, most will leave you and hurt you if you do. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
<span style="color: #000099">There are restrictions on what you can do in 401Ks and IRAs. It would be difficult to apply the strategies I have learned to that situation. I only have a license to conduct securities transactions on any exchange in the US. I do not have a license to give financial advice in any form and I agree with that regulation. If I am not a fully qualified, certified, and licensed investment advisor, I should be restricted by federal regulation from talking about it.

Things I can discuss are the trading strategies and analytical methods employed by professionals to determine the value of securities. What I cannot say is something like XYZ stock is a good value. I can get fined big time by the SEC for doing that.

If I am successful as a trader, I would expand my license and help others to be successful. I have to survive this first ordeal first.</span>

Chopstick
10-03-2010, 10:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chops -- So what!!! Who cares what the Down Joes duz or duznt do!!
The usofa cake iz produced by the production of producers.
The stock market iz a pox -- it iz for non-producers, who dont produce anything -- except money for themselves -- with which they get a bigger share of the cake.
Why shood i care if some non-producers grab a bit of money from other non-producers -- due to a windfall or something.
While non-producers are in uproar, in the confines of their lairs, real life and real production go on, thank God.
mac.
</div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">Mac, I understand your point of view and at one point I shared that opinion. However, since I have learned what the market actually is and how it works, I can say that it is vital and necessary. Without the markets, only cake production on a very small scale would be possible. Most people would never get to enjoy any cake at all.

If you want to build a big cake factory so everyone can have some cake, where are you going to get the money? You have two ways to do it. Sell debt or equity in the company, Bonds or stock. It does not matter who invents or makes something. It is who bought it and who sold it. That is where money comes from. When you issue stock or bonds for your cake company, where are you going to sell them? You can't go out on the street corner and wave them at traffic. It is against the law. You have to take them to the market and have a trader get your money for you.

That guy at the grocery store that you bought that can of beans from, did he grow them and put them in the can. Is he a non-producer also? He made it possible for you to get your beans. He is a trader too. People tend to lump all of Wall Street together. They also think of traders as all being rich fat cats. Real traders are not all rich and on the whole very ethical people just trying to make a living. At least the ones I have met are. Investment bankers, on the other hand, those guys really are the spawn of Satan. The guys you see in the Wall Street movies and TV shows are investment bankers or broker-dealer reps of some sort. They are not traders.</span>

cushioncrawler
10-03-2010, 05:21 PM
Yes, but once a small guy haz hiz company, the trading duznt help him/her.
And -- who gets first dibs on any good looking stock -- not us.
mac.

jimmyg
10-05-2010, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, but once a small guy haz hiz company, the trading duznt help him/her.
And -- who gets first dibs on any good looking stock -- not us.
mac. </div></div>

Initially, and before the Federal Reserve System, and advanced financial engineering methods became the rule of the day, the equity markets were much simplier. One invested their excess cash into dividend paying stocks, without much concern for capital appreciation, and actually received a reasonable share of the company's profits.

The system has since evolved into, or been reduced to, a gigantic ponzi scheme and most companies no longer feel the need to share corporate profits with it's shareholders. The equity markets pretty much operate on "the greater fool" theory, whereby the stock owner looks for a greater fool to purchase his overpriced stock, and with insiders using their privileged information to profit on their stock options, and the sell side working the public with the 1.5% "buy and hold" forever theory, the majority of the buying public are the greater fool.

Here's a slighly aged, quick link that you may find interesting.
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/lundeen110107.html

J

cushioncrawler
10-05-2010, 05:13 PM
I read bits of that, will finish later. Yeah, buy and hold iz for loozers. The only good think about theusofa financial system iz that it iz crooks v's crooks mostly, ie an even fight. But crooks v's me&u iz murder.
mac.

jimmyg
10-05-2010, 06:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read bits of that, will finish later. Yeah, buy and hold iz for loozers. The only good think about theusofa financial system iz that it iz crooks v's crooks mostly, ie an even fight. But crooks v's me&u iz murder.
mac. </div></div>

mac, bad news. It's the "world" financial markets, not just the USA.

J

cushioncrawler
10-05-2010, 08:27 PM
Yes, world. But the usofa iz a different dimension.
mac.

Chopstick
10-06-2010, 12:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read bits of that, will finish later. Yeah, buy and hold iz for loozers. The only good think about theusofa financial system iz that it iz crooks v's crooks mostly, ie an even fight. But crooks v's me&u iz murder.
mac. </div></div>

It is even more unfair now days. High Frequency computers dominate the market and only the big shops can afford to have them. In my opinion what they are doing should be illegal. Actually, I do not see why it is not because because it is clearly front running and manipulating the tape. They steal hundreds of millions out of the markets every day.

Buy and hold can work over time but only if you are properly hedged. Knowing something about fundamental analysis is important also. I see it everyday. People are out buying stock in companies at 5 times the book value of the company or more and it just keeps on going up. It has to crash at some point.

There is so much to know. I have been studying for a whole year and I barely know enough to survive without getting killed every day. It isn't just me. People at the firm that have been doing it for over ten years are having a hard time. Proven strategies that were working as little as 6 months ago are no longer working. It's really tough out there right now.

jimmyg
10-06-2010, 04:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chopstick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read bits of that, will finish later. Yeah, buy and hold iz for loozers. The only good think about theusofa financial system iz that it iz crooks v's crooks mostly, ie an even fight. But crooks v's me&u iz murder.
mac. </div></div>

It is even more unfair now days. High Frequency computers dominate the market and only the big shops can afford to have them. In my opinion what they are doing should be illegal. Actually, I do not see why it is not because because it is clearly front running and manipulating the tape. They steal hundreds of millions out of the markets every day.

Buy and hold can work over time but only if you are properly hedged. Knowing something about fundamental analysis is important also. I see it everyday. People are out buying stock in companies at 5 times the book value of the company or more and it just keeps on going up. It has to crash at some point.

There is so much to know. I have been studying for a whole year and I barely know enough to survive without getting killed every day. It isn't just me. People at the firm that have been doing it for over ten years are having a hard time. Proven strategies that were working as little as 6 months ago are no longer working. It's really tough out there right now. </div></div>

Let's not leave out "flash trading", where the HFT computers actually get to see the orders before they even get to the exchange, and "quote stuffing", where they drive the prices up with their own laddered, computerized bids that cancel the prior bid, and never get, nor were ever intended to be executed.

And a SEC that turns a blind eye, hoping to eventually move on to that $1M job with Madoff's firm when they leave the SEC.

Chop, don't think that it's just you. As manipulated and broken
(by the FED & Treasury through it's primary dealers) as this market is, nothing makes any sense. The market is not being driven by fundamentals, nor does technical analysis work in this environment, the market is going up for no reason other than because it is being propped and pushed up by the FED. Hedge funds are shutting down and/or returning funds to their clients because none of this makes sense. Yesterday corporate insider sales were about 2400 compared to one insider buy. What does that tell you?

J