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08-30-2002, 01:35 PM
I have a beginner/intermediate player that wants me to help him develop a stroke, he would be a decent player if he had a stroke. I'm not a real good teacher, so what can I do to help this person learn a good solid stroke? Any drills or practice methods that will help. Please help, and thanks in advance!

Karatemom
08-30-2002, 02:12 PM
I'm far from being a teacher, but I am a student. I have been taught to shoot as many straight in balls as possible, making sure to use the same stroke method each time, and even closing my eyes. Apparently, this method gets driven into the mind by repetition and it does help. This is just my personal opinion from what I've been taught, but there will be much better and clearer responses from the more experienced players here.

Heide ~ just putting in my $.02

Drake
08-30-2002, 03:02 PM
The Old "Stroke through the Coke bottle" routine works pretty good for beginners. Make them stroke into the bottle as least fifty times in a solid stance. Then, Make them go through their preshot routine and treat the bottle like the cue ball and deliver their single stroke into the bottle....repeat 20 times. This isn't as easy as it sounds. An old guy with the nickname "stick" taught me this...Go figure. There are many drills that build a good solid stroke.

08-30-2002, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I have a beginner/intermediate player that wants me to help him develop a stroke, he would be a decent player if he had a stroke. I'm not a real good teacher, so what can I do to help this person learn a good solid stroke? Any drills or practice methods that will help. Please help, and thanks in advance! <hr></blockquote>


let them play straight rail billiards. now that's a real stroke builder there. u wonder why so many filipino players have good stroke? cuz they play billiards, mostly straight rail.

08-30-2002, 11:05 PM
I'm not sure a "stroke" can ever be taught. I've always felt that one either has it or not.

Cueless Joey
08-30-2002, 11:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: val2play:</font><hr> I'm not sure a "stroke" can ever be taught. I've always felt that one either has it or not. <hr></blockquote>
It can be taugh Val.
Get rid of the death grip.
Pause and follow through.
That would fix more than half of the problem.

08-31-2002, 12:01 AM
Randy Goettlicher (sp?) down in Dallas, who is the head of the BCA's instructor program, has an absolutely brilliant method. He has broken the stroke down to its components and worked out extensive ways of teaching each part, then putting them together. Get in touch with him through his Cue Tech web site.

08-31-2002, 03:16 AM
quote:

let them play straight rail billiards. now that's a real stroke builder there. u wonder why so many filipino players have good stroke? cuz they play billiards, mostly straight rail. <hr></blockquote>
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::


Is straight rail billiards the same as 3 cushion billiards?

08-31-2002, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: val2play:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I'm not sure a "stroke" can ever be taught. I've always felt that one either has it or not. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It can be taugh Val.
Get rid of the death grip.
Pause and follow through.
That would fix more than half of the problem. <hr></blockquote>


IT WORKED!!!!! But what about the other half? Isn't the rest "feel"? How do I learn that?

stickman
08-31-2002, 12:49 PM
You develop feel from hours of practice. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Scott Lee helped me improve my stroke, but I had to practice it until it became automatic.

bluewolf
09-01-2002, 08:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> I'm far from being a teacher, but I am a student. I have been taught to shoot as many straight in balls as possible, making sure to use the same stroke method each time, and even closing my eyes. Apparently, this method gets driven into the mind by repetition and it does help. This is just my personal opinion from what I've been taught, but there will be much better and clearer responses from the more experienced players here.

Heide ~ just putting in my $.02 <hr></blockquote>

no expert here, in fact scott lee just helped me on mine.so all i can say is how i would do it. i would physically take his stroke arm and show him the pendulum movement without dropping the elbow without holding the cue.he can practice this just walking around. when it is automatic, i would add the cue and teache the loose grip and practice the two together. only when the stroke and grip are automatic would i approach the ball. practice hitting the cue ball without any pressure to pocket balls. once this is well natural, you can go to stance and eye movement.

bluewolf

Scott Lee
09-01-2002, 07:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: val2play:</font><hr> I'm not sure a "stroke" can ever be taught. I've always felt that one either has it or not. <hr></blockquote>

val2play...That is absoloutely incorrect! I can teach ANYONE to have a REAL stroke in just a few hours. They will then have to practice to make it easy, but they will have the basic elements necessary for a stroke, within the first lesson.

Scott Lee

TomBrooklyn
09-01-2002, 08:58 PM
Scott,
I'm sure it varies with the student and how many lessons they've taken etcetera, but can you generalize about what percentage of lesson time is required or best spent on the stroke versus other aspects of the game?

stickman
09-01-2002, 09:42 PM
I'm not Scott, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night. LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif When I took my lesson, the stroke was shown to me early in the lesson, and I continued to use this stroke thoughout the lesson, while simultaneously working on other aspects. If during the lessons, I didn't stroke correctly, Scott would politely point it out to me. After the lesson, I had to continue to work on this stroke for probably a week or two before it started coming to me naturally.

Scott Lee
09-01-2002, 10:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Scott,
I'm sure it varies with the student and how many lessons they've taken etcetera, but can you generalize about what percentage of lesson time is required or best spent on the stroke versus other aspects of the game? <hr></blockquote>

Tom...As Stickman said, I concentrate on the stroke FIRST!...demonstrating what a stroke is, and how to build it using hand/eye coordination and timing. The stroke, imo, is far more important than things like how to aim, how to stand, and how to hold the cue...although all of these elements contribute to the eventual successful execution. You're right, it varies from student to student. Some students never get past building the stroke in the entire first lesson. Others just need a little tweaking, and their stroke is ready...which allows me to move on to other things.

Scott Lee

Q-guy
09-02-2002, 12:44 AM
I agree 100%. In fact if a beginning player is not around some good players to start with, they will have a hard time developing a stroke on their own. It is not all that natural a movement. If you look around any poolroom full of guys and gals playing, most can't even hardly hit the cueball in a straight line. Yet you could take any one of them even if they have no talent and teach them how to stroke the cueball. In an hour their game will improve and over time they will get better and better. It seems to be something you only have to teach them once and they have it.

TomBrooklyn
09-02-2002, 12:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr>It seems to be something you only have to teach them once and they have it. <hr></blockquote> Thats an interesting concept. Has it been the experience of most instructors that the stroke can pretty much be taught in one lesson?

If not, how many lessons does it typically take before stroke problems no longer continue?

Do B Players, A Players, or even Pros ever go to a coach to have their stroke checked out or adjusted?

Chris Cass
09-02-2002, 06:58 AM
Hi Tom,

Yes, Yes, Yes. The smart ones will. Usually it's in their mechanics in which leads to the mental part of their game.

Regards,

C.C.

bluewolf
09-02-2002, 08:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Q-guy:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;It seems to be something you only have to teach them once and they have it. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; Thats an interesting concept. Has it been the experience of most instructors that the stroke can pretty much be taught in one lesson?

If not, how many lessons does it typically take before stroke problems no longer continue?

Do B Players, A Players, or even Pros ever go to a coach to have their stroke checked out or adjusted? <hr></blockquote>

whitewolf taught me the correct stroke but i did not have any followthrough. i had also gotten sloppy on my stroke. scott retaught me the stroke and gave me a good follow through.

sure some people are naturals. i have probably played pool for a total of two months..i am naturally athletic.the first time i picked up a cue and walked up to the table, i had a near perfect cue grip,stance,and a not perfect but functional bridge.

some people do learn faster but i agree with scott, anybody can be taught.i have heard the same comment about the break (you either have it or you dont) but after my lesson with scott, my break is better.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-02-2002, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> I'm not Scott, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night. LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif When I took my lesson, the stroke was shown to me early in the lesson, and I continued to use this stroke thoughout the lesson, while simultaneously working on other aspects. If during the lessons, I didn't stroke correctly, Scott would politely point it out to me. After the lesson, I had to continue to work on this stroke for probably a week or two before it started coming to me naturally. <hr></blockquote>

i walk around doing the stroke when i dont have a pool table to practice it on. i heard from a reliable source that if you practice a new habit every day for a month, it will be set.

now my pool table is almost up. yahoo. pool everyday scotts drills everyday.

is their a scott lee cult&lt;VBG&gt;

bluewolf

Q-guy
09-02-2002, 08:30 AM
It seems to be with complete beginners, something they can pick up easily once shown, I guess that is what I meant. I don't mean to imply there is nothing to it, just that it can be easily taught.

09-02-2002, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Eddie G Chgo:</font><hr>
quote:

let them play straight rail billiards. now that's a real stroke builder there. u wonder why so many filipino players have good stroke? cuz they play billiards, mostly straight rail. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::


Is straight rail billiards the same as 3 cushion billiards? <hr></blockquote>


in straight rail billiards you can either do as many cushion or no cushion as you want as long as you hit or carom all 3 balls and that's a 1 point. you can play race to let's say for example 100 points or 500 points. who ever reach the set point wins. there are different variations of straight rail. sometimes they use balkline to make it harder. meaning whenever you make 1 point you have to move one of the 3 balls outside a specific box area so you can score and it makes the game harder. reyes is good at that.

in straight rail billiards you can practice your cut shots, follow, masse, banking, kicking, positioning and especially draw shots. also it makes your cueball control in pool improve a lot. i mean big time! that's why most filipino pool players plays so unique cuz of the cross training they have in billiards.

09-02-2002, 02:07 PM
Back in the 60s in high school we would play no rails billiards or straight rail billiards when we were leaning the game. Since I returned to playing pool about 6 months ago I haven't seen anyone playing any billiards except at Chris's in Chicago. 63rd St Billiards has about 26 pool tables and only 1 billiard table. I've never seen anyone playing on the 1 billiard table in the about 20 times I was there. Cue Time has about 16 tables without any billiard tables. Billiards seems to be a dead game around Chicago except for Chris's Billiards. That's really a shame in my opinion.

09-03-2002, 09:00 AM

Rich R.
09-03-2002, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> I have a friend who took lessons for a week in Dallas at this pool school. He stills shoots with a 'butterfly' grip. How could someone spend so much money and come back with a very inferior grip? Beyond me how the pool school even let him escape.

<hr></blockquote>
Whitewolf, any instructor and/or school can only explain and demonstrate the correct way to do things. In the end, it is up to the student to make the changes needed.
JMHO. Rich R.

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr>
I have a friend who took lessons for a week in Dallas at this pool school. He stills shoots with a 'butterfly' grip. How could someone spend so much money and come back with a very inferior grip? Beyond me how the pool school even let him escape.

<hr></blockquote>

what is the heck is a butterfly grip? btw, scott breaks the stroke down too.

bluewolf

bluewolf
09-03-2002, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rich R.:</font><hr>Quote: whitewolf: I have a friend who took lessons for a week in Dallas at this pool school. He stills shoots with a 'butterfly' grip. How could someone spend so much money and come back with a very inferior grip? Beyond me how the pool school even let him escape.

&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Whitewolf, any instructor and/or school can only explain and demonstrate the correct way to do things. In the end, it is up to the student to make the changes needed.
JMHO. Rich R. <hr></blockquote>

'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear'. if you go looking for a teacher before you are ready,then nothing changes. 'if you keep doing the same things you have always done, then you will keep getting what you have always got'

bluewolf

Fred Agnir
09-03-2002, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Eddie G Chgo:</font><hr> Is straight rail billiards the same as 3 cushion billiards? <hr></blockquote>
No it isn't. The difference between the two is that there isn't a requirement to contact any cushions in Straight Rail.

Fred

09-03-2002, 12:09 PM
Interesting comment about being "naturally athletic". I too am naturally athletic, but Pool did not come naturally to me.

I am naturally athletic at sports that involve strength, agility, and balance. Like gymnastics, Martial Arts, and Snow Skiing. I am not naturally athletic at sports that involve hand-eye coordination and manipulating an object. Like Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

I think Pool is less of the former and more of the latter. Natural strength, agility, and balance doesn't really come into play in Pool. Pool is more of a hand-eye coordination, small-movement, finese activity. So my natural abilities at strength/agility/balance sports haven't translated well to Pool.

Thoughts?

bluewolf
09-04-2002, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> Interesting comment about being "naturally athletic". I too am naturally athletic, but Pool did not come naturally to me.

I am naturally athletic at sports that involve strength, agility, and balance. Like gymnastics, Martial Arts, and Snow Skiing. I am not naturally athletic at sports that involve hand-eye coordination and manipulating an object. Like Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

I think Pool is less of the former and more of the latter. Natural strength, agility, and balance doesn't really come into play in Pool. Pool is more of a hand-eye coordination, small-movement, finese activity. So my natural abilities at strength/agility/balance sports haven't translated well to Pool.

Thoughts? <hr></blockquote>

btw,pool does not come easy to me either.i have finally accepted the fact that there is no quick fix but it is hours on the table and a teachable mind that produce an excellent player.what i do have is determination and very much challenged in the same way i was challenged by karate.what i found in karate was that those who often excelled were not those with natural talent but those who really worked hard and knew they were going to have to work hard to get where they wanted to be.i saw so many with great talent fall by the way.not sure why but think ego was a factor.

I guesss I see some similarities between pool and martial arts which i took for 17 years.i think focus and being used to block out everything else helps me in pool.i see some similarities in the punch and the stroke in terms of fluidity but cant really put it into words. the stance was natural.bending at the knees or hips is easy and holding the upper arm parallel to the floor is easy due to developed tricep muscles. learning fine movements to perfect techniques and then being able to do them natural to me seems similar., in the zone i see a similarity.i was in the zone on a regular basis in karate,only a couple of times in pool but since i could do it on a regular basis in karate,i think i can in pool too once i figure out mental aspects required for this.

as far as eye hand coordination, sheesh in karate, you have to be fast and accurate, not like baseball but in a different way.in pool, although just trying to figure this out, the coordination mostly seems to be the stroke and lining up the shot.there are mental aspects one has to know to be really good but these dont have anything to do with coordination. as far as i can tell they have to do with experience and understanding the mental aspects of the game.

for myself, my mental concepts are ahead of my game. for instance,i may see the best safety to give the opponent the worst shot but it requires knowing english, ball speed,action on the rails and other things. those are skills i am just starting to develop. so just because i can see the best safe or position does not mean i can do it yet.

bluewolf