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eg8r
10-11-2010, 09:43 AM
Union drags down schools' grades... (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/uft_charter_fools_cAxPCQ8XNrklVMSdAekQvL#ixzz1235s Hv9v)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not all charter schools are created equal.

City charter schools represented by the teachers union scored significantly lower on city-issued report cards this year than did their nonunionized counterparts, a new analysis found.

The seven charter elementary and middle schools whose members belong to the United Federation of Teachers scored a collective

C-minus on this year's report cards, which are based largely on whether students improve on state reading and math tests.

By comparison, the remaining 50 nonunion charter schools averaged a more respectable B-minus grade, according to the Foundation for Education Reform and Accountability in Albany.
</div></div>
Pretty crazy...

eg8r

Deeman3
10-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Funny, we are non-union and are scoring quite a bit better in the automobile industry than our unionized competitors. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Even a few on the left are having moments of clarity on this issue as the man who made the "Searching for Superman" movie is the same guy who made "An Inconvienent Truth."

Instead of being ashamed at what they have done to American students over the past 30 years, the unions are crying for more money.

Some (many) will try to give it to them.

sack316
10-11-2010, 02:22 PM
I know it's a problem we've had here in Bama for as long as I can remember. Too many teachers put in their 3 years or so, get tenured, and then check out. And sometime before they retire they go work on their PhD (retirement, IIRC, is double for those with a doctorate). Obviously there are many more and deeper problems with our school... but this is still one of them.

Sack

hondo
10-11-2010, 08:32 PM
me wuz rely gude tchr til me joen yoonyun.
den me git rel stoopid rel fast.

stil done no y.

dem dan yoonyuns no gude.

hondo
10-11-2010, 08:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, we are non-union and are scoring quite a bit better in the automobile industry than our unionized competitors. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Even a few on the left are having moments of clarity on this issue as the man who made the "Searching for Superman" movie is the same guy who made "An Inconvienent Truth."

Instead of being ashamed at what they have done to American students over the past 30 years, the unions are crying for more money.

Some (many) will try to give it to them. </div></div>

Thank God I taught in West Virginia!!
I can't think of one single thing the unions did to hurt the students in West Virginia.

hondo
10-11-2010, 08:37 PM
I taught in 3 different counties in West Virginia and I never saw the union protect one bad teacher.

eg8r
10-12-2010, 06:28 AM
Consider your 3 counties as not normal.

eg8r

hondo
10-12-2010, 06:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider your 3 counties as not normal.

eg8r </div></div>

And you know this how, Eg?

Seriously, what do know about unions in West Virginia?

Looks to me like you're just spouting Right wing rants.

My wife teaches in a 4th county in WV and hasn't seen it either.

Sev
10-12-2010, 06:38 AM
The department of education needs to be dissolved.

hondo
10-12-2010, 06:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The department of education needs to be dissolved. </div></div>

I thought we were talking about teachers' unions.
Pay attention!

Sev
10-12-2010, 06:43 AM
We are.

Remove the dept of Ed and you'll see the teachers unions snap to attention.

Qtec
10-12-2010, 07:06 AM
Without unions you would have 9 yr old kids sewing balls for 12 hours a day......like Nike do in other countries.

Q...be careful what you wish for.

LWW
10-12-2010, 07:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider your 3 counties as not normal.

eg8r </div></div>

And you know this how, Eg?</div></div>

Speaking only for myself ... you have made a far more compelling argument that Eg is right than Eg ever could.

LWW

hondo
10-12-2010, 07:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are.

Remove the dept of Ed and you'll see the teachers unions snap to attention. </div></div>

Sheer nonsense by someone who absolutely has no idea what he's talking about.
The unions are the biggest pains in the ass to the Dept. of Ed.

pooltchr
10-12-2010, 07:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I taught in 3 different counties in West Virginia and I never saw the union protect one bad teacher. </div></div>

Is it possible, being that you were so closely involved, that you just failed to recognize it when it was there. The teacher's union has one function and one function only. That is to look out for the best interests of the teachers. They are not charged with looking out for the best interests of the students. There is no reason to expect that any teacher's union would ever put the best interests of the students ahead of those of the teachers. It's their job!!

Steve

hondo
10-12-2010, 07:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without unions you would have 9 yr old kids sewing balls for 12 hours a day......like Nike do in other countries.

Q...be careful what you wish for.


</div></div>

Without unions good teachers would lose their jobs to the whims of local Boards and Admins without due cause.

Poor old Sev thinks the unions are in league with Dept of Ed
when in reality the unions fight every nonsense move the Dept. of Ed dreams up.
He hasn't been near a school in 50 years but laps up every tidbit
of nonsense his wingnut brethren feed him as does his leader, lww.

Stretch
10-12-2010, 08:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without unions you would have 9 yr old kids sewing balls for 12 hours a day......like Nike do in other countries.

Q...be careful what you wish for.


</div></div>

Without unions good teachers would lose their jobs to the whims of local Boards and Admins without due cause.

Poor old Sev thinks the unions are in league with Dept of Ed
when in reality the unions fight every nonsense move the Dept. of Ed dreams up.
He hasn't been near a school in 50 years but laps up every tidbit
of nonsense his wingnut brethren feed him as does his leader, lww. </div></div>

Hondo, all that just falls into the rights anti-union philosophy. I've been a proud union member for over 30 years. We created the middle class out of the working poor and the rulers have hated us ever since. St.

eg8r
10-12-2010, 08:20 AM
Never said they did not do any good in the beginning. What is being said is they don't do any good anymore.

eg8r

pooltchr
10-12-2010, 08:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without unions you would have 9 yr old kids sewing balls for 12 hours a day......like Nike do in other countries.

Q...be careful what you wish for.


</div></div>

We have labor laws that prevent this from happening. The unions have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Nice try, but way off base.

Steve

sack316
10-12-2010, 02:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without unions you would have 9 yr old kids sewing balls for 12 hours a day......like Nike do in other countries.

Q...be careful what you wish for.


</div></div>

Actually, if you look into sweatshop ridden countries you'd find the alternatives to such work for those kids is far far worse. By no means am I saying such things are good... but better than prostitution, drug smuggling, thievery, etc. Just sayin...

Sack

Sev
10-12-2010, 05:20 PM
Indeed they are.
They would be the next to go. Once there was no federal backing and the education when back to the individual states it would be union breaking time.

As the Donald says.

Your fired!!!

Sev
10-12-2010, 05:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without unions you would have 9 yr old kids sewing balls for 12 hours a day......like Nike do in other countries.

Q...be careful what you wish for.


</div></div>

Without unions good teachers would lose their jobs to the whims of local Boards and Admins without due cause.

Poor old Sev thinks the unions are in league with Dept of Ed
when in reality the unions fight every nonsense move the Dept. of Ed dreams up.
He hasn't been near a school in 50 years but laps up every tidbit
of nonsense his wingnut brethren feed him as does his leader, lww. </div></div>

50 years???? WTF!!!!

hondo
10-12-2010, 07:41 PM
WADR, Sev, you're clueless.
States pretty much control education now.
And actually counties control much of it.

Bush's NCLB hurt the schools but that's been the major obstacle from the government..

Sev
10-12-2010, 08:24 PM
I know.
Just screwing with you Hondo. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

llotter
10-13-2010, 02:20 AM
Unionism is a leftover from the old commie days that pitted workers against the bourgeois and have since defined the class dichotomy where none exists. Laws protecting unions, such as the National Labor Relations Act, should all be abolished along with the Dept of Ed. In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction.

LWW
10-13-2010, 04:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without unions good teachers would lose their jobs to the whims of local Boards and Admins without due cause.</div></div>

Please explain why a school board, held accountable by the local electorate, would dismiss a well performing teacher without just cause for the purpose of replacing them with a lesser performing teacher?

That would be analogous to a car dealer firing for no reason the sales rep who consistently sold 20 cars a month, just so they could replace them with the sales rep from a competitor who sold 5 a month.

LWW

LWW
10-13-2010, 04:11 AM
IMHO unions are neither inherently good or bad.

What is bad, and amazing, is how nationwide union leadership has profited immensely be betraying the trust the union members have placed in them.

Perhaps Aitch would like to discuss the many suits going on over how the NEA took kickbacks from annuity companies for pimping to their members what was a horrible deal?

Or, how did that whole UAW thing work out for the members?

LWW

hondo
10-13-2010, 05:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction. </div></div>

I have heard that argument many times , but I have yet to hear of any viable options.

Home schooling? Many of my kids' parents could possibly teach
their kids how to convert coke to crack or suck a big one.
Calculus? Biology? Literature and composition? American History?
GET REAL!!

Private schools? Who pays? Vouchers? Wow1 So much for cutting government spending.
No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.

The Right's vision of the future is pretty frightening to some ole boy like me who grew up in a country ghetto and wouldn't have had anything without a public education.

LWW
10-13-2010, 06:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.
</div></div>

Sorry ... but that's the democrook plan.

Answer me this Aitch ... why is it that public school teachers send their own kids to public schools more than any other occupation?

LWW

hondo
10-13-2010, 06:11 AM
Maybe teachers' unions are bad in other states and maybe you guys actually know this for a fact.

In my state they offer insurance against UNFAIR firings of qualified teachers, act as a safeguard against county or state policies that would obstruct teachers from doing their job, and fight for much-needed raises for teachers.

As for Dept of Ed, perhaps you are right.
The government helps with the free lunch program( the only hot meal some of my kids get), finance special ed programs, and help finance computers.
If this financial assistance could be replaced(where?) , then perhaps they should be abolished.

Qtec
10-13-2010, 06:22 AM
Wht do you hate the middle class and worship the rich?

Q

Qtec
10-13-2010, 06:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Home schooling? </div></div>

Rick Santorm, the righter than right guy who thinks all Govt is bad, remember him?
Guess how much he pulls in from the Govt for home schooling?

Any on the Right know this or care?

Q

hondo
10-13-2010, 06:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wht do you hate the middle class and worship the rich?

Q </div></div>

I have asked myself that question many times.
I assume some of these Right wingers are wealthy.
But all of them?
Sev claims not to have a lot.
lww says he's well to do , but I doubt it unless he is into something illegal. Not accusing him, just curious.

As we get more and more billionaires in America and the middle class continues to get shoved further down into the lower class, do they think some of that wealth is going to trickle down to them?

How's that working for you guys?

LWW
10-13-2010, 06:54 AM
Nobody thought you would answer the question.

LWW

pooltchr
10-13-2010, 06:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction. </div></div>

I have heard that argument many times , but I have yet to hear of any viable options.

Home schooling? Many of my kids' parents could possibly teach
their kids how to convert coke to crack or suck a big one.
Calculus? Biology? Literature and composition? American History?
GET REAL!!

Private schools? Who pays? Vouchers? Wow1 So much for cutting government spending.
No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.

The Right's vision of the future is pretty frightening to some ole boy like me who grew up in a country ghetto and wouldn't have had anything without a public education.
</div></div>

Here's your viable option. Since governments have done a really poor job of running public schools, why not contract their operation with private companies? Charter schools have proven to generally do a better job of educating kids than public schools.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, but imagine the county owning the school facilities, but hiring a company to manage the operation of them. All those government jobs would be gone, replaced by private industry jobs. Competition for the jobs would increase. Those companies who could most effectively run the schools would succeed, those who couldn't would fail.
Teachers could shop their skills to various companies. Of course, that would do away with tenure and the free ride that many teachers enjoy, but overall, the best teachers would be the ones teaching.

This is not a new concept. Local governments often contract for services. There was a time when something as simple as trash collection was done by city employees, in city vehicles, on city payrolls handled that task. Then they figured out that companies such as WM or BFI were more efficient and cost effective.

Let's face it. Public schools as a general rule have been doing worse in educating our kids than their private counterparts. So why do we keep throwing more money into a system that doesn't work? Let's just hire someone who can get the job done!

Steve

eg8r
10-13-2010, 07:39 AM
Why do you rape little children? Sorry but you were the on that started with the dumb questions.

eg8r

eg8r
10-13-2010, 07:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you know this how, Eg?

Seriously, what do know about unions in West Virginia?
</div></div>So you are saying your entire state is out of touch with the way unions are run around the country? To be honest I think you are too biased to even have an opinion on the subject of unions.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
10-13-2010, 01:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction. </div></div>

I have heard that argument many times , but I have yet to hear of any viable options.

Home schooling? Many of my kids' parents could possibly teach
their kids how to convert coke to crack or suck a big one.
Calculus? Biology? Literature and composition? American History?
GET REAL!!

Private schools? Who pays? Vouchers? Wow1 So much for cutting government spending.
No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.

The Right's vision of the future is pretty frightening to some ole boy like me who grew up in a country ghetto and wouldn't have had anything without a public education.
</div></div>

Right wing policies are never realistic policies, and never account for all of the positive results of living in a country which offers a public education to everyone.

The flaw in all of their arguments is always the same. They always want to throw out an entire program, without accounting for the facgt that a lot of good things come from any given program.

They address the Union Issue with the same, "Throw the baby out with the bath water" narrow views.

Affirmative Action, same narrow views from the right, while no attention to the good things that came from it. Affirmative Action, was all about insuring we would not have defacto discrimination in our colleges. IOW, turning away black students, with high grades, just on the basis of their color.

Unions? Same narrow vision. Unions insured safe work environments, decent pay, retirement benefits, and in same cases, Health Care.

All Republican and right wing stances, fail because they do not maintain a bright future,, for anyone but the wealthy.

Narrow minded people, who are so blinded by their hatred of the government, and equal rights, for all, that they only focus on negatives, without any attention to all of the positives, rarely see the whole picture.


BTW, I know all of the children in my neighborhood, and in my daughter's neighborhood, and those who are Home Schooled, are wierd, socially unevolved, and pretty much avoided by other children in the neighborhood, because they don't seem able to fit in with their peers, or able to take part in neighborhood games, for example, without making problems.

I have yet to hear of any family that Home Schools their kids, who isn't Republican, and also considered to be the rest of the neighborhood, to be weird people, generally speaking.

That's just my own experience, but then, I also know that we have wonderful, dedicated teachers, both in my daughter's county, and my county, here in Maryland.


G.

llotter
10-13-2010, 04:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction. </div></div>

I have heard that argument many times , but I have yet to hear of any viable options.

Home schooling? Many of my kids' parents could possibly teach
their kids how to convert coke to crack or suck a big one.
Calculus? Biology? Literature and composition? American History?
GET REAL!!

Private schools? Who pays? Vouchers? Wow1 So much for cutting government spending.
No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.

The Right's vision of the future is pretty frightening to some ole boy like me who grew up in a country ghetto and wouldn't have had anything without a public education.
</div></div>

What is so frightening about freedom? Where freedom flourishes,
quality goes up and prices go down. It is only when the ruling class decides that the citizens are not competent to manage their own lives that the 'freedom dividend' get reversed; price goes up and quality goes down.

You identify yourself as a lefty when you seek viable options. In a free society, it is not up to me or you to solve everyone's problems for them but to leave it to the individuals to solve their own. That is the very essence of freedom. Government is instituted to cope with problems that are beyond the reach of the individual, ref. Article I, Sec 8 of the Constitution. Certainly education can be handled by the citizens themselves because many are doing it and doing it better than the public alternative.

hondo
10-13-2010, 07:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you know this how, Eg?

Seriously, what do know about unions in West Virginia?
</div></div> To be honest I think you are too biased to even have an opinion on the subject of unions.

eg8r </div></div>

I've taught in West Virginia for 30 years. Have you?

hondo
10-13-2010, 07:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction. </div></div>

I have heard that argument many times , but I have yet to hear of any viable options.

Home schooling? Many of my kids' parents could possibly teach
their kids how to convert coke to crack or suck a big one.
Calculus? Biology? Literature and composition? American History?
GET REAL!!

Private schools? Who pays? Vouchers? Wow1 So much for cutting government spending.
No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.

The Right's vision of the future is pretty frightening to some ole boy like me who grew up in a country ghetto and wouldn't have had anything without a public education.
</div></div>

What is so frightening about freedom? Where freedom flourishes,
quality goes up and prices go down. Certainly education can be handled by the citizens themselves because many are doing it and doing it better than the public alternative. </div></div>

So you equate doing away with public schools, i.e., the opportunity for every child to get a decent education, with freedom? I don't see it.
Any way you look at it, education is expensive, and if we do away with public ed, a huge segment of the public is going to lose out on the opportunity to go to school, and you and I
know which segment of the public that is. The difference is which one of us cares.

You say "many" citizens are doing better with alternatives to public education. How "many"?
Public schools certainly have their problems but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life.

Gayle in MD
10-14-2010, 12:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, getting rid of public education would be a step in the right direction. </div></div>

I have heard that argument many times , but I have yet to hear of any viable options.

Home schooling? Many of my kids' parents could possibly teach
their kids how to convert coke to crack or suck a big one.
Calculus? Biology? Literature and composition? American History?
GET REAL!!

Private schools? Who pays? Vouchers? Wow1 So much for cutting government spending.
No, what happens is that the privileged get schooling and
the poor are running in gang, selling crack, prostituting, drawing as much welfare as they can.

The Right's vision of the future is pretty frightening to some ole boy like me who grew up in a country ghetto and wouldn't have had anything without a public education.
</div></div>

What is so frightening about freedom? Where freedom flourishes,
quality goes up and prices go down. Certainly education can be handled by the citizens themselves because many are doing it and doing it better than the public alternative. </div></div>

So you equate doing away with public schools, i.e., the opportunity for every child to get a decent education, with freedom? I don't see it.
Any way you look at it, education is expensive, and if we do away with public ed, a huge segment of the public is going to lose out on the opportunity to go to school, and you and I
know which segment of the public that is. The difference is which one of us cares.

You say "many" citizens are doing better with alternatives to public education. How "many"?
Public schools certainly have their problems but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life. </div></div>


<span style="color: #FF0000"> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Excellent Post, Hondo. </span> </span>

LWW
10-14-2010, 03:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life. </div></div>

How "many" ... what evidence of this do you have? Falling standards ... certificates of attendance instead of diplomas.

How about for once, just <span style='font-size: 11pt'>ONCE</span>, you make your case with some verifiable facts and not spoon fed union talking points?

LWW

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:18 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:25 AM
What's sad , Gayle, is that you've got some character with stained tighty whiteys sitting in a basement in Dayton who never leaves his house and has no children telling a 30 year teacher in the system that he has no idea what he's talking about.

Only on these wacky forums. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

And he wonders why I no longer directly respond to him! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

I learned a few things in public school. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:29 AM
Dear Hondo, I'm going to ignore everything relevent
in your post to which I have no intelligent response and focus on the underwear comment. Please keep your homo-erotic comments to yourself.

Sincerely, LWW.

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:32 AM
hounduh,I see that you are answeing youre own posts again!
And you call yorself a tchr? You arnt smart enof to hav ever ben a tchr.

Sincerely, Steve

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:34 AM
Hondo, you say you want peace and then post crap like that. What's wrong with you?

Sincerely, Eg8r

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:36 AM
Dear LWW, Steve, and Eg, I am a 21st Century Schizoid Man
with severe OCD. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

sack316
10-14-2010, 06:37 AM
lol Hondo, thanks for the laughs this morning! You're tripping me out /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sack

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:38 AM
Bonus points for the first poster who can tell me which group
did " 21st Century Schizoid Man". NO GOOGLING!

sack316
10-14-2010, 06:40 AM
Was it Ozzy? Or Black Sabbath? Must admit I'm not 100% sure, just seem to associate Ozzy's voice with it for some reason...

Sack

hondo
10-14-2010, 06:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was it Ozzy? Or Black Sabbath? Must admit I'm not 100% sure, just seem to associate Ozzy's voice with it for some reason...

Sack </div></div>

Nope. Same time frame as Black Sabbath.

sack316
10-14-2010, 07:00 AM
dang, I tried... but now it's bugging me so will have to head to the google or something! I won't spoil the contest here though...

Sack

sack316
10-14-2010, 07:03 AM
oh yeah... ok now I got it! In my defense, Ozzy did cover it though (poorly)!

Sack

hondo
10-14-2010, 07:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh yeah... ok now I got it! In my defense, Ozzy did cover it though (poorly)!

Sack </div></div>

He did???

sack316
10-14-2010, 07:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh yeah... ok now I got it! In my defense, Ozzy did cover it though (poorly)!

Sack </div></div>

He did??? </div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRMvQNRqny0

yes sir, he did... but not nearly as good as I would have thought Ozzy would do it...

Sack

eg8r
10-14-2010, 07:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any way you look at it, education is expensive, </div></div>Why does it have to be more expensive here in the US than anywhere in the world yet our students are getting dumber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Public schools certainly have their problems but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life. </div></div>I agree with this completely but I don't believe this will get any better by just throwing billions more dollars every year hoping more money will make the problems go away.

There are other countries that are starting to pass by the US and we should be looking at what those countries are doing well and start implementing where we fall short. That doesn't mean drop more money in the Dept of Ed money pit, it means drop the crap that doesn't work (incl bad teachers) and fill it with the stuff that does work (incl good teachers).

eg8r

pooltchr
10-14-2010, 08:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any way you look at it, education is expensive, </div></div>Why does it have to be more expensive here in the US than anywhere in the world yet our students are getting dumber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Public schools certainly have their problems but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life. </div></div>I agree with this completely but I don't believe this will get any better by just throwing billions more dollars every year hoping more money will make the problems go away.

There are other countries that are starting to pass by the US and we should be looking at what those countries are doing well and start implementing where we fall short. That doesn't mean drop more money in the Dept of Ed money pit, it means drop the crap that doesn't work (incl bad teachers) and fill it with the stuff that does work (incl good teachers).

eg8r </div></div>

In business, it's called benchmarking, and it is one of the most successful strategies for continuous improvement.

Steve

eg8r
10-14-2010, 08:19 AM
I thought there was a school in Delaware or somewhere that was doing a study that would mimic the way some asian countries teach math and reading skills that was drastically different then the way it is done in the US. One example was learn the basics and actually drill it into the students head over and over and over until it was second nature. Only at that point did they move on to derivatives of what they learned. It was a pretty interesting way of doing things but I never heard any more about the study. I guess it is still going.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
10-14-2010, 10:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's sad , Gayle, is that you've got some character with stained tighty whiteys sitting in a basement in Dayton who never leaves his house and has no children telling a 30 year teacher in the system that he has no idea what he's talking about.

Only on these wacky forums. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

And he wonders why I no longer directly respond to him! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

I learned a few things in public school. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </div></div>

These righties on here prove their inability to debate intelligently, every single day.

They deny the intent, and impact, of their own written words, in the midst of turning every single thread into nothing but personal attacks, against other members who have made it very clear, that they have no intention of even bothering to read their RW bottle fed crap.

Any and every hard working Middle Class group of workers in our country which is not robbing the country blind, from our teachers, constantly misrepresented, to Air Traffic Controllers, who sought to push for safer skies, and were thrown out of work and blackballed from their own profession by the right's beloved, Ronald Reagan, to the corrupt oil indistry, which constantly proves they don't give a dammn about trashing the environment, and/or literally killing their own employees to suffice their own massive greed, all such inhummanity, protected by Republicans.

Statements such as mine above, documented, and factual, have been RW bain, deleted.

When people are so thoroughly brain washed, that they vote against their own interests, for a party which has proven over and over again, that they have sold America out, to their Global billionaire cronies, foreign and domestic, while these same folks are costantly yapping about fiscal responsibility, after throwing the country nearly into a Depression, it's a waste of time to even communicate with them.

The method, delete and deny, the proven, common knowledge, and facts, as needed, including bridges to nowhere, and Republican "Christian family values Golders" who travel abroad to support rougue Nations, and Islands, which murder people for being Gay, support slave labor around the world, and corporations which lock women and children in sweltering sweat shops over weekends, with no air conditioning, while regularly raping them, and leaving them to die.

The republican philosophy has long been, protect and defend the Bush/Cheney, thieving corporate thugs, Halliburton and it's sister corps, who cheated the US out of multi billions in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and electrocuted our troops as they showered.

The party of "Christian Family Values" defended them all, even after they kidnapped and gang raped one of our own young women as she served her country, over seas. All such corporate CEO, pigs, are consistantly protected by Republican Representatives, and their Bush Created, activist RW, Supreme Court co-hearts, who denied that young woman her right to hold the Halliburton/Carlyle Group of Arabs, to account for kidnapping and gang raping her.

The Party of illogical hatred for attorney's who make their living representing the maimed and murdered patients of incompetent quacks in the Medical Profession,and forcing them to pay up, to their victims for damages suffered.

Our country has fallen into the hands of greed, gross deceit, propaganda and corruption, created, defended and protected by the right, without conscience.

It's a sad sight to watch.

G.

pooltchr
10-14-2010, 11:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These righties on here prove their inability to debate intelligently, every single day.

G.

</div></div>

Nobody can participate in an intelligent debate with you, any more than they could have an intelligent debate with a rock!

All you ever post is hate filled posts filled with dem talking points.

When you accept the fact that your beloved Democrats are no better than the Republicans you hate so passionately, you might find some intelligent conversations. Until then, expect to be buried in facts, and to have your hypocracy highlighted.

Steve

hondo
10-14-2010, 01:23 PM
They've been doing that in my county for years. Can't speak for elsewhere.

eg8r
10-14-2010, 01:25 PM
Yeah, we have heard about your county already. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

hondo
10-14-2010, 01:42 PM
Explain what you mean. ?????

hondo
10-14-2010, 01:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These righties on here prove their inability to debate intelligently, every single day.

G.

</div></div>

Nobody can participate in an intelligent debate with you, any more than they could have an intelligent debate with a rock!



When you accept the fact that your beloved Democrats are no better than the Republicans you hate so passionately, you might find some intelligent conversations. Steve </div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

eg8r
10-14-2010, 05:30 PM
That is exactly why you are too biased.

eg8r

eg8r
10-14-2010, 05:32 PM
Let me say it slowly...Your county and state as a whole (at least as you remember it) is out of touch with the way unions are ruining education all around the rest of the country. Then you tell us your county is doing the experiments I mentioned so I thought I would joke about it. That was the smiley.

eg8r

hondo
10-14-2010, 08:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is exactly why you are too biased.

eg8r </div></div>

No, it means I know of what I speak, while you
spout the Right wing dogma.

hondo
10-14-2010, 09:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me say it slowly...Your county and state as a whole (at least as you remember it) is out of touch with the way unions are ruining education all around the rest of the country. Then you tell us your county is doing the experiments I mentioned so I thought I would joke about it. That was the smiley.

eg8r </div></div>

I guess our problem is that what you are calling innovative experiments is all I've ever seen in West Virginia.
It's certainly how I was taught math 50 years ago, and how we have approached math in the counties I have worked in over the years.

WOW! Delaware, West Virginia and Asia, on the cutting edge of math instruction!

Gayle in MD
10-14-2010, 09:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These righties on here prove their inability to debate intelligently, every single day.

G.

</div></div>

Nobody can participate in an intelligent debate with you, any more than they could have an intelligent debate with a rock!



When you accept the fact that your beloved Democrats are no better than the Republicans you hate so passionately, you might find some intelligent conversations. Steve </div></div>


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </div></div>

LMAO! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

eg8r
10-15-2010, 06:08 AM
Wrong again but you keep believing what you want.

eg8r

hondo
10-15-2010, 06:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you keep believing what you want.

eg8r </div></div>

Thank you. You're too kind.

eg8r
10-15-2010, 06:18 AM
So for the past 30 years your teaching style has been to mimic the asian culture. Very interesting. What I have seen in Florida for the past 30 years (includes my own schooling) is for day one teach the basic, day two cover the basic and move to the first derivative, day three cover first derivative and start looking at second derivative. Day four start something new and cycle starts over until test day.

With WV on the cutting edge I was wondering where your students are placing against the rest of our country and Asia? When comparing to the kids coming from asian countries, I would say your teaching skills must be far inferior since they are walking all over your WV kids. Maybe it is the union propping you up and giving you all those high fives, who knows.

eg8r

hondo
10-15-2010, 06:48 AM
Well, for one thing, I don't teach math.

But, again, you're just blowing out hot air.

The test scores in my county were the best in the state
in math and Engish and top 5 in science.

Before you want to compare scores with Japan, how about comparing
suicide rates of teenagers in Japam among teenagers with America?
How about looking at who gets to continue their schooling in Asia w/America?

It's like those moronic statistics Right wingers like to toss out comparing home schooling with public schooling.
Home schooled kids have very sharp parents who obviously
feel their kids are sharp enough to handle the work.
Plus, much smaller numbers. Then they compare that with the entire public school system and gloat.

I imagine if you took all the Asian kids who weren't allowed to advance and tested them also, the scores wouldn't be so high.

All that being said, in many of the foreign countries I've traveled in, Netherlands, Gemany, Austria, England, Belgium,
Scandanavian countries, the people, overall, seemed much more intelligent than average Americans and much more open
to honest discussion and learning.

I feel the family unit in America has broken down and the support system for our kids to learn is not there.
Plus, anti-intellectualism seems to be in vogue these days.
Bash the colleges, bash the schools, fire em all.
Our ability to process information and go from A to B, cause and effect, seems lost.
Hence, making it easier for orchestrators like Karl Rove
to manipulate the minds of the masses and make them see what he wants them to see to go along with his agenda.

eg8r
10-15-2010, 08:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, for one thing, I don't teach math.
</div></div>I know macbeth boy, which is why I knew you were talking out your rear. I also know you had no idea of the study that I was referring to which is why I started joking about your "incredible" county. You just want to keep this going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you want to compare scores with Japan, how about comparing
suicide rates of teenagers in Japam among teenagers with America?
How about looking at who gets to continue their schooling in Asia w/America?
</div></div>So you are saying you want to change the subject?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
10-15-2010, 09:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, for one thing, I don't teach math.

But, again, you're just blowing out hot air.

The test scores in my county were the best in the state
in math and Engish and top 5 in science.

Before you want to compare scores with Japan, how about comparing
suicide rates of teenagers in Japam among teenagers with America?
How about looking at who gets to continue their schooling in Asia w/America?

It's like those moronic statistics Right wingers like to toss out comparing home schooling with public schooling.
Home schooled kids have very sharp parents who obviously
feel their kids are sharp enough to handle the work.
Plus, much smaller numbers. Then they compare that with the entire public school system and gloat.

I imagine if you took all the Asian kids who weren't allowed to advance and tested them also, the scores wouldn't be so high.

All that being said, in many of the foreign countries I've traveled in, Netherlands, Gemany, Austria, England, Belgium,
Scandanavian countries, the people, overall, seemed much more intelligent than average Americans and much more open
to honest discussion and learning.

I feel the family unit in America has broken down and the support system for our kids to learn is not there.
Plus, anti-intellectualism seems to be in vogue these days.
Bash the colleges, bash the schools, fire em all.
Our ability to process information and go from A to B, cause and effect, seems lost.
Hence, making it easier for orchestrators like Karl Rove
to manipulate the minds of the masses and make them see what he wants them to see to go along with his agenda. </div></div>

Unions always result in better workers. I saw statistics, recently, which proved that the areas with the strongest teacher's Union, had the best performance levels.

It's amazing, to me, how may issues which truly, just common sense, should be enough tolay to rest, but which the right seem unable to grasp.

A very good example, is those who ae too stupid to realize that everything Republicans are promising, are the same Bush policies which already burried the country in a rash of debt, and no win solutions for serious problems, that cannot be solved swiftly.

We know, for a fact,. that tax cuts do not pay for themselves, for example, particularly tax cuts for the wealthy, do not stimulte the economy.

Yet, the right still doesn't get it.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

pooltchr
10-15-2010, 11:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Unions always result in better workers. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

I'm sure many of us would love to hear how you came up with this comment. But be prepared to have whatever you come up with totally discredited.

Unions rarely result in better workers! I've worked in a union environment, and when you co-workers and shop steward tell you that you are working too hard, and need to slow down, I'm not sure how that makes for better workers. When I can't offer to hold a ladder for an electrician because I am a carpenter, that makes for better workers? When an electrician can't drill a hole to run an electric wire through a wall, because you have to have a carpenter do it, that's good for everybody? When I can't pick up a package that is about to fall off the end of a conveyer because I'm management, and not allowed to actually handle packages, that makes sense to you too?

But, I'm sure you will explain.

Steve

eg8r
10-15-2010, 12:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw statistics, recently, which proved that the areas with the strongest teacher's Union, had the best performance levels.
</div></div>Well isn't that fancy considering I posted statistics that disagree.

eg8r

llotter
10-15-2010, 04:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So you equate doing away with public schools, i.e., the opportunity for every child to get a decent education, with freedom? I don't see it.
Any way you look at it, education is expensive, and if we do away with public ed, a huge segment of the public is going to lose out on the opportunity to go to school, and you and I
know which segment of the public that is. The difference is which one of us cares.

You say "many" citizens are doing better with alternatives to public education. How "many"?
Public schools certainly have their problems but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life. </div></div>

What is a little astounding as that you don't see the obvious usurpation of fundamental liberty when the State essentially takes the children and the money away from the parents and teaches/indoctrinates as the states see fit. Your attitude seems to be that the state knows best and without that intrusion, the parents would fail to be good parents. Leaving people to lead their own lives and raise their children as they think best is the most essential element of a free society. Unfortunately, those who support your position have been winning the 'debate' and we are left with a society with all the problems that we now have...always demanding more and more from others and a lack of individual responsibility.

Yes, education does cost money just as food, clothing and shelter cost money but that doesn't automatically translate into state intrusion though the evidence is growing that there is demand for the state to intrude in these areas also. Is there no place to hide from the 'do-gooders' that always know better than the citizens?

While there are currently not that many parents that avoid the public school systems, that is because they have to pay for the 'public option' whether they use them or not. Imagine if the public schools were only paid for by those parents that choose to send their kids there. My guess is that if parents were free to choose that the public system would go out of business in no time flat...or they would have to improve and lower their price. But that is not the cases. Parents are not free to choose because they have to pay whether they are satisfied with them or not.

pooltchr
10-15-2010, 09:29 PM
And yet, in many cases, you will find parents who pay for those public schools with their tax dollars, and still choose to pay again for a private school education for their kids.

That should tell you something about our public schools!

I also noticed that after H asked for a valid soultion and I suggested outsourcing education to private businesses, there was no response.

Governments have no expertise in education. Why are they in that business. If you want to use tax dollars for education, let contracts for private schools to operate them. Teachers employed by private businesses rather than working for the government. Now that would result in lower costs, and teachers who would be required to perform. Competition is the way to increase quality. When governments have a monopoly, there is no incentive to improve.

Steve

Steve

hondo
10-15-2010, 10:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, for one thing, I don't teach math.
</div></div>I know macbeth boy, which is why I knew you were talking out your rear. I also know you had no idea of the study that I was referring to which is why I started joking about your "incredible" county. You just want to keep this going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you want to compare scores with Japan, how about comparing
suicide rates of teenagers in Japam among teenagers with America?
How about looking at who gets to continue their schooling in Asia w/America?
</div></div>So you are saying you want to change the subject?

eg8r </div></div>

Has to rate as one of your all time dumbest posts. Congratulations.

hondo
10-15-2010, 10:56 PM
"Leaving people to lead their own lives and raise their children as they think best is the most essential element of a free society."

That line in your post stood out to me.

Reminds me of an old Jackson Browne song:

Well, I'm losing touch with reality and I'm almost out of blow,
Such a fine line, I hate to see it go.

hondo
10-15-2010, 10:59 PM
Quote from pooltchr:



"I also noticed that after H asked for a valid soultion and I suggested outsourcing education to private businesses, there was no response."

Wow! He's quick. Wonder if he noticed that there's no response to any of his posts?

Gayle in MD
10-15-2010, 11:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So you equate doing away with public schools, i.e., the opportunity for every child to get a decent education, with freedom? I don't see it.
Any way you look at it, education is expensive, and if we do away with public ed, a huge segment of the public is going to lose out on the opportunity to go to school, and you and I
know which segment of the public that is. The difference is which one of us cares.

You say "many" citizens are doing better with alternatives to public education. How "many"?
Public schools certainly have their problems but they give kids with shitty home lives, and, believe me, there are "many", the only chance they are going to have in life. </div></div>

What is a little astounding as that you don't see the obvious usurpation of fundamental liberty when the State essentially takes the children and the money away from the parents and teaches/indoctrinates as the states see fit.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Name any kind of school, where that doesn't exist. churches, do the same thing, but you do't mind that, right? </span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">You don't have to send your children to public schools. No one forces you, you can pay to send them to a huge variety of schools. Who's stopping you? No one.</span>


Your attitude seems to be that the state knows best and without that intrusion, the parents would fail to be good parents.

<span style="color: #FF0000">How the hell did you arrive at that conclusion? </span>


Leaving people to lead their own lives and raise their children as they think best is the most essential element of a free society.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Who's stopping you? No one.</span> <span style="color: #FF0000"> Is your love of liberty, the reason why you admire murderers who shoot people because they don't approve of their profession, or share his religious views?</span>


Unfortunately, those who support your position have been winning the 'debate' and we are left with a society with all the problems that we now have...


<span style="color: #FF0000">HA HA HA....So ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of our nation's problems were not crashing toward us likie a freight train, from all the way back to 2001, huh? The country was in great shape, when Clinton left....Bush left it in a state of collapseduring aoll but his last year and a half of his regime, Republicans were handing him blank hecks.</span>


always demanding more and more from others and a lack of individual responsibility.

<span style="color: #FF0000">So the corporations aren't always demanding more and more from others, instead of taking responsibility?

The churches aren't damanding more and more from others without taking personal responsibility?

The oil Industry, isn't demanding more and more from others, without taking the personal responsibility for their wholesale theft, or for their cancer causing health results, or for failing to providing a product people can afford, without expecting the rest of us to finance their wealth, and dirty dealing, with subsidies?

The military, and DOD, isn't doing the same thing? They take the biggest part of our money, and can't win a damn war, or find one man, after A DOZEN years, while they are demanding more and more of our tax dollars, And you righties, are focussed on teachers unions?

Why do all Marylanders have to pay the same amount to travel across the Bsy Bridge, when some of them haardly ever use it?

You seem to have democracy mixed up with dictatorhsip, and we haven't had one of those since Bush left. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif


Liberty, is invading personal family decisions, or killing people because you don't like their profession, or denying a woman control over her own body?


</span>

Yes, education does cost money just as food, clothing and shelter cost money but that doesn't automatically translate into state intrusion though the evidence is growing that there is demand for the state to intrude in these areas also.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Where is the state intrusion in public education? No one is forced to utilize public education.</span>

Is there no place to hide from the 'do-gooders' that always know better than the citizens?

<span style="color: #FF0000">No, the damn religious nutcases have been knockiing on my door, and offending my intelligence, my whole life, asking me to let them show me the way, and "BTW, the basket is On the way, to the way"</span>

While there are currently not that many parents that avoid the public school systems, that is because they have to pay for the 'public option' whether they use them or not.


<span style="color: #FF0000">HUH? Makes no sense.
When is the laast time you flew in a fighter jet? Went to the moon? Slept in the White House? Used a military commissary? Why do I have to lose some of our National Treasure to churches, who buy up property, for investments, make money, and pay no taxes, if I am an Athiest? Why can't I build a restaurant and serve alcohol, within 2,000 feet of a church, when I think organized religion is a scam?</span>


Imagine if the public schools were only paid for by those parents that choose to send their kids there. My guess is that if parents were free to choose that the public system would go out of business in no time flat...or they would have to improve and lower their price. But that is not the cases. Parents are not free to choose because they have to pay whether they are satisfied with them or not.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Yep, I I have to pay for wars, when I am totally against them.</span> </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">So what?

We all pay for things, we don't use.

Running a democracy where no one ever has to pay for some things they don't use, is an imposible dream, and not how democracy works, and no form of Goverrnemt is perfect. It's a matter of how much value we, as Americans, place on having a country in which all children have an opportuniy to be educated by a professional teacher. What do you righties have against educated people, anyway? the more educated people are, the more you righties bash them.

You righties have no confidence, in America, that's your problem. Instead of bashing teachers, and bashing teachers' Unions, you ought to be working with both, within your own communities, to learn how things can work better, instead of just bashing the entire theory of Unions, or teachers, or public education. Instead why not get invioved in revising the system, in the interest of providing a good public education, and decent pay to pull and keep better teachers, o the job.

And why do you Free Market Zealots live by the, "You get what you pay for" mantra, except when it comes to public education???? What you expect is optimal performance, for low pay?

That seems to be exactly what the Republican Philosophy is, for all except the crooks and criminals on Wall Street, and in the Military Industrial "Privatised" no bid complex, or the highway robbery of the pharmaceutical industry. Or the Health Care and insurance Industry, or doleing out money to corporations which spend every day, pollutiutsourcing our jobs, while theyy trash the environemnt. You're al fine about subsidizing the negligent oil corporations, for all of which you're all willing to be taken to the cleaners, willingly.

What I find so annoying about the right, is their lack of the American Spirit.

There is plenty wrong, that needs fixing, but also, there is plenty that's right, yet some people think if something isn't spinning along, at optimum levels, oh hell, well then just throw out the whole idea, end the whole program.

What if we had stopped making cars alotogether after the Edsel, lol.

That isn't straight thinking, to me.

I spent forty to sixty thousand for just the early years of my daughter's education, while through my taxes, I was also paying for public education.

That didn't bother me, because as an American, I realized the value to our society of having a public school system, where all children have a shot at an education, whether I was going to use it for my daughter, or not, I still got my money's worth, because all of the other children in our neighborhood, were getting an education, too, which impacted the value of my experience of living there, the value of my property, and added to the community experience.

Public education makes our country a better country which is something we should all be willing to finance.

There is such a thing as improving results, and that is what our goal as Americans should be for public education, IMO. I'd much prefer to spend the national treasure on that, than on killing innicent people on the other side of the world...or financing churches for brainwashing innocent kids.

Teachers as a group, are mostly of the highest intentions, and commitment to their profession, of any workers. They surley don't target teaching, because money is their God, I can assure you. They do not view the goal of their work strictly on greed, or on scaming people, and to hell with whomever suffers for it.

I find it typical, but perplexing, that at a time when we already know that China and others, are leaving us in the dust, improving and providing the best public education, and making the most strides in renewable fuels, yet now, of all times, the right just says, awe hell, let's just throw out the whole program.

Then you tap into your constitutional claims, of liberty, and I have to laugh.

I mean, really, where would we be right now if our Founders, everytime something wasn't working just right, had said, Oh the hell with it, just throw out the whole idea.


Again, so what about experimenting with ideas in our educational system, in order to try to find the right mix. Yes, we should all pay for that, regardless of whether we are using it, or not. That's how Democracies work.

I don't recall any of you guys complainingg about No Child Left Behind. Was that Govenment taking over? Was that government forcing their will upon all of us? Was lying us into a war, forcing us to pay taxes that many of us, thirty percent, atleast, during which, Bush prosecuted it so badly, that we're STILL tryng to get the hell out of there? Never heard a single rightie complain about that.

G.</span>

LWW
10-16-2010, 04:05 AM
Why are you you ducking all the questions ... again ... Aitch?

Are you waiting for a spoon fed answer, or just skeered?

LWW

pooltchr
10-16-2010, 07:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quote from pooltchr:



"I also noticed that after H asked for a valid soultion and I suggested outsourcing education to private businesses, there was no response."

Wow! He's quick. Wonder if he noticed that there's no response to any of his posts? </div></div>

Yes, I noticed, and I'm not at all surprised. When you ask a question, and someone presents you with a common sense answer that goes against your view point, there are only two options, admit you may be wrong, or pretend you didn't hear it.

You and your friend with your little "total ignore" game remind me of a 6 year old sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting "nya nya nya..." so they won't hear that which they don't want to hear.

Very adult of both of you.

Steve

llotter
10-16-2010, 07:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, so what about experimenting with ideas in our educational system, in order to try to find the right mix. Yes, we should all pay for that, regardless of whether we are using it, or not. That's how Democracies work. </div></div>

The desire to experiment with other people's lives must be an intractable attribute of the liberal mind. Such 'experiments' are doomed from the start because people are not lab subjects and can never be successfully manipulated while remaining free.

What is commonly referred to as 'American Exceptionalism' really describes the miracle of freedom. Think about the great inventions and discoveries and how many were the result of the ordinary man experimenting in his garage or on paper and how many of these came from people with less than the best education. In a free society, there are the minds of the entire population at work solving the problems of life, of getting ahead, of raising a family, of becoming successful.

In the liberal society, there are a few minds (albeit, the best and the brightest) working on the problems and these are most likely people from academia with little actual experience in real life issues. This 'planning' model has been extremely influential over the past 100 yrs or so and has undercut the exceptionalism that we inherited. It is almost as if the devil is preforming his dirty deed when the liberal offers his 'easy path' but the citizen doesn't realize he is selling his soul and becoming a ward of the state.

Freedom also pays huge dividends by eliminating the burden of the excessive and unproductive government which now happens to employ nearly 30% of the workforce. We will be able to compete with the rest of the world and have a high standard of living only if we shed this huge burden. I'm sure we can agree on this.

Gayle in MD
10-16-2010, 09:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, so what about experimenting with ideas in our educational system, in order to try to find the right mix. Yes, we should all pay for that, regardless of whether we are using it, or not. That's how Democracies work. </div></div>

The desire to experiment with other people's lives must be an intractable attribute of the liberal mind. Such 'experiments' are doomed from the start because people are not lab subjects and can never be successfully manipulated while remaining free.

What is commonly referred to as 'American Exceptionalism' really describes the miracle of freedom. Think about the great inventions and discoveries and how many were the result of the ordinary man experimenting in his garage or on paper and how many of these came from people with less than the best education. In a free society, there are the minds of the entire population at work solving the problems of life, of getting ahead, of raising a family, of becoming successful.

In the liberal society, there are a few minds (albeit, the best and the brightest) working on the problems and these are most likely people from academia with little actual experience in real life issues. This 'planning' model has been extremely influential over the past 100 yrs or so and has undercut the exceptionalism that we inherited. It is almost as if the devil is preforming his dirty deed when the liberal offers his 'easy path' but the citizen doesn't realize he is selling his soul and becoming a ward of the state.

Freedom also pays huge dividends by eliminating the burden of the excessive and unproductive government which now happens to employ nearly 30% of the workforce. We will be able to compete with the rest of the world and have a high standard of living only if we shed this huge burden. I'm sure we can agree on this. </div></div>

You copy this stuff from libertarian authors.

You see simple problems of democracy, as though solving them, is proof of some sort of dibolical take over.


Here's the bottom line. The more our country is robbed, by the top one percent, the poorer it's citizens will become.
Republicans only represent the wealthy. Hence, through a number of unConstitutional policies, Republicans destroyed opportunities for Middle Class people, to have a shot at the American Deam.

It started when our first dictator, Ronald Reagan, destroyed our Unions.

Where were the so caloled Libertarians, when Reagan stepped in and fired the air traffic controllers, destroyed their union, and black listed the members.

That wasn't a government take-over?

Libertarianism, is a joke. If you want Libertarianism, then you have to give up demoracy. The two don't mix.

We are a nation of representative Democracy. the more Republicans have control, the worse it is for most Americans.

We;re subsidizing the very people who have destroyed our economy, OIL, among the most treacherous.

Our economic problems soared, under a Repulican President, and a Republican majority. The lasting on-going results, don't go away overnight. We have to restructure the economy, because the rich at the top, do0n't care about how what they do, impacts our own people. They move in the international market, that's why we have lost our manufacturing industry.

Reagan's policies, caused an all out invasion of illegal aliens.

Bush's Spreading Democracy around the world, gave us quadrupple the number of enemies we had before he crashed into the White HOuse, by throwing the election, with the help of the Supreme Court, which threw out state legislation, and dictating who would be president.

Bush lied to the entire world, using falsee cherry picked intelligence, and then actively worked to keep Americans afraid, and exploit the many billions who don't bother reading books, but just turn on the FUX propaganda station to get their daily feed of lies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The desire to experiment with other people's lives must be an intractable attribute of the liberal mind. Such 'experiments' are doomed from the start because people are not lab subjects and can never be successfully manipulated while remaining free.

</div></div>

Again, the muddled thought processes of the Libertarian mind, offer no solutions, and see everything through the eyes of extremism.

Explain to me how your fondness of personal liberty, justifies your praise of a murderrer?


Then follow that up by exmplaing how you think you have any right to intrude your opinions, into the personal decisions of women?

You're a walking, talking contradiction....with no feasible platform for problem solving. You make a simple plan to improve our schools, sound like the invasion of the body snatchers.

Skewed, contradictory, extremist and impractical.
G.

pooltchr
10-16-2010, 10:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Again, the muddled thought processes of the Libertarian mind, offer no solutions, and see everything through the eyes of extremism.


You're a walking, talking contradiction....with no feasible platform for problem solving.

Skewed, contradictory, extremist and impractical.
G.


</div></div>

Pot. Meet Kettle!

Coming from the most skewed, contradictory, extremist and impractical poster on the fourm, that is really funny!

Steve

LWW
10-17-2010, 01:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to have democracy mixed up with dictatorhsip, and we haven't had one of those since Bush left. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

G.</div></div>

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner ... and your hatrd of Bush is well noted and completely out of touch with reality.

If he was a dictator ... why isn't he still there?

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 01:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do I have to lose some of our National Treasure to churches, who buy up property, for investments, make money, and pay no taxes, if I am an Athiest? Why can't I build a restaurant and serve alcohol, within 2,000 feet of a church, when I think organized religion is a scam?

G.</div></div>

Because you worship at the altar of the state and one of the tenets of your religion is that the state has the ultimate say of what can be done with "PRIVATE" property.

See how easy this is when logic is applied?

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 02:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Running a democracy where no one ever has to pay for some things they don't use, is an imposible dream, and not how democracy works, and no form of Goverrnemt is perfect.

G.</div></div>

Where in our founding docs does it say we are a democracy?

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 02:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And why do you Free Market Zealots live by the, "You get what you pay for" mantra, except when it comes to public education???? What you expect is optimal performance, for low pay?

G.</div></div>

The idea that public school teachers are low paid is laughable.

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 02:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I spent forty to sixty thousand for just the early years of my daughter's education, while through my taxes, I was also paying for public education.

G.</div></div>

Quite revealing ... your kids deserve better but not someone else's?

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 02:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They surley don't target teaching, because money is their God, I can assure you. They do not view the goal of their work strictly on greed, or on scaming people, and to hell with whomever suffers for it.

G.</div></div>

Actually education majors are far more likely to be the laziest and least skilled college students ... but it is the easy way into a decent job.

And if money isn't the NEA's God ... why do they refuse to discuss anything other than more of it during contract negotiations?

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 02:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then you tap into your constitutional claims, of liberty, and I have to laugh.

That's how Democracies work.

G.</div></div>

And that statement says it all ... you laugh at liberty and have no clue that the COTUS didn't set up a democracy nor that it's authors believed democracy to be inherently evil.

LWW

pooltchr
10-17-2010, 06:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I spent forty to sixty thousand for just the early years of my daughter's education, while through my taxes, I was also paying for public education.

G.</div></div>

Quite revealing ... your kids deserve better but not someone else's?

LWW </div></div>

She is allowed to think like that because her leader does. Didn't Obama tell us how great our public schools are, and how his kids would be attending public school in DC? How long did that last?

It's funny that public schools weren't good enough for her kids, but they are such wonderful institutions for those poor and middle class families that she <u>claims</u> to have such compassion for!

Steve

LWW
10-17-2010, 08:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She is allowed to think like that because her leader does. Didn't Obama tell us how great our public schools are, and how his kids would be attending public school in DC? How long did that last?

Steve </div></div>

About as long as his pledge to only use public funds for his campaign.

LWW

LWW
10-17-2010, 08:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's funny that public schools weren't good enough for her kids, but they are such wonderful institutions for those poor and middle class families that she <u>claims</u> to have such compassion for!

Steve </div></div>

Elitists think that way ... how dare members of lower castes be allowed to contaminate the domain of the self assumed higher caste members.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C-!

LWW