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LWW
11-03-2010, 01:45 PM
First ... and by a wide margin.

http://www.prosperity.com/images2/SI_health.gif

Amazingly ... the regime never put that on the spoon?

OH DEAR! (http://www.prosperity.com/health.aspx)

LWW

LWW
11-04-2010, 05:45 AM
I would expect an apology from the far left ... except that I know them too well.

LWW

LWW
11-04-2010, 05:47 AM
The mere difference between the USA and #2 Iceland ... 0.253 ... is a higher number than the cumulative score of the next 109 nations.

Qtec
11-04-2010, 06:08 AM
Geez. You answered your own thread twice! LMAO


Nobody cares about your post because we all know its misleading. It only covers those who HAVE HC, not the total POP as a whole.



Q

LWW
11-04-2010, 06:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Geez. You answered your own thread twice! LMAO


Nobody cares about your post because we all know its misleading. It only covers those who HAVE HC, not the total POP as a whole.



Q </div></div>

The above quote is from a minor back bencher of a thirteenth place country who is desperately trying to save face for the party spoon wielders.

LWW

Stretch
11-04-2010, 08:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Geez. You answered your own thread twice! LMAO


Nobody cares about your post because we all know its misleading. It only covers those who HAVE HC, not the total POP as a whole.



Q </div></div>

The above quote is from a minor back bencher of a thirteenth place country who is desperately trying to save face for the party spoon wielders.

LWW </div></div>

What? no comment about Q's point that this chart only covers those with health insurance?

Can you even see the facts from the top of your high horse??

Look real closely...

At least 15.3% of the population is completely uninsured and a substantial ADDITIONAL portion of the population &lt;35%&gt; is underinsured, or not able to cover thier medical needs.

According to Institute of Medicine of the United States National Academies, the United states is the only wealthy industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage ie (some kind of insurance).

Thus you have a two tiered system. Good, yet wildly expensive healthcare for the rich. (but they can afford it). And Bankrupcy on the way to an early grave for the working poor. Your "chart" is a slap in the face for what everyone knows is an urgent need for healthcare reform. Braging that you are #1 in the world is a total joke. St.

sack316
11-04-2010, 10:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It only covers those who HAVE HC, not the total POP as a whole.

Q </div></div>

Where does it say that? I could be overlooking it somewhere...

Sack

LWW
11-04-2010, 03:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It only covers those who HAVE HC, not the total POP as a whole.

Q </div></div>

Where does it say that? I could be overlooking it somewhere...

Sack </div></div>

It doesn't.

Snoopy and Stretchen Fetchit are grasping at straws like drowning men.

Both of them prove their abhorrence for truth and love for the lie by demonstrating they never bothered to read the lin's definition ... and I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt as they may have read it and decided to fabricate an excuse.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A strong healthcare infrastructure in which citizens are able to enjoy good physical and mental health leads to higher levels of income and wellbeing. The Health sub-index measures countries’ performance in three areas: basic health outcomes, health infrastructure and preventative care, and physical and mental health satisfaction. As illustrated in the chart below, the variables in the sub-index are categorised into these areas.

The Health sub-index assesses countries by outcomes that are made possible by a strong health infrastructure, such as rates of immunisation against diseases and public health expenditure. Countries are also assessed on outcomes such as life expectancy, rates of infant mortality and undernourishment. The sub-index also includes measures of satisfaction with personal health and the health effects of environmental factors such as water and air quality, and even environmental beauty.

Self-reported wellbeing and self-reported health are commonly found by researchers to be strongly and significantly correlated to a overall society’s health, as this fosters strong human capital that leads to productive aggregate economic output. Mentally and physically healthy citizens are the bedrock of a productive workforce, which in turn leads to higher levels of income per capita.</div></div>


LWW

sack316
11-04-2010, 03:15 PM
that's about what I figured

Sack

LWW
11-04-2010, 03:40 PM
And you know what ... I really do hate treating them the way I'm forced to, but leftists on this board are so regularly dishonest and disrespectful of those who pay attention that I have to give them a small measure of their own medicine in return.

LWW

hondo
11-04-2010, 08:46 PM
"Snoopy and Stretchen Fetchit are grasping at straws like drowning men.

Both of them prove their abhorrence for truth and love for the lie by demonstrating they never bothered to read the lin's definition ... and I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt as they may have read it and decided to fabricate an excuse."

There's your common ground, Dee. Pardon me if "Houndo"
and "Snoopy" and "Stretchen Fetcit" fail to see what the hell you are talking about. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

hondo
11-04-2010, 08:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you know what ... I really do hate treating them the way I'm forced to, but leftists on this board are so regularly dishonest and disrespectful of those who pay attention that I have to give them a small measure of their own medicine in return.

LWW </div></div>

LMFAO! What a card!

hondo
11-04-2010, 08:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you know what ... I really do hate treating them the way I'm forced to, but leftists on this board are so regularly dishonest and disrespectful of those who pay attention that I have to give them a small measure of their own medicine in return.

LWW </div></div>

You "really do hate treating them the way you're FORCED to", huh?
What a shame.
You hate it, huh?
Tell me, who on here other than steve believes that you "hate" calling all of us names?
What a card!!!!

Qtec
11-04-2010, 08:57 PM
link (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">37 United States of America
</div></div>

Q

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that's about what I figured

Sack </div></div>

OH DEAR! I don't understand???








===========
















































































































The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.
Source: WHO World Health Report - See also Spreadsheet Details (731kb)

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu
128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:04 PM
Number 37? OH DEAR! Well, that was in 2008.
I guess we could have shot to number one since Obama's been in office.
Sack, just because lww says it's so doesn't mean it's so.

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:06 PM
Read this:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:07 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:08 PM
http://www.examiner.com/progressive-poli...ystem-the-world (http://www.examiner.com/progressive-politics-in-national/the-united-states-does-not-have-the-best-health-care-system-the-world)

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:09 PM
http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

hondo
11-04-2010, 09:09 PM
Truth vs. truthyness.

Qtec
11-04-2010, 09:17 PM
Look, lets say we make a ranking based on how many citizens in a country have HC.

The USA with 15/29% of people uninsured would come way down on the list compared to the Euro countries with total HC for everyone, universal HC.

Lets base our ranking this time on expenditure.
The USA spends twice as much per person on HC than the Euro countries so they would top the list......so they must have the best HC in the world.................right?


LWW finds a graph that does not represent the whole picture but he presents it as so. Don't be fooled.

Q

sack316
11-04-2010, 11:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sack, just because lww says it's so doesn't mean it's so. </div></div>

I didn't say it was. I simply asked where on his link did it state that only those with health insurance were included in the statistics. It didn't, and as I said that's what I figured. That's all homey.

I honestly don't know where we should rank on the list. I don't know how one could even go about addressing different variables in a manner that makes all things equal to even create such rankings. Nor do I know how one, if they were able to create such a thing, would be able to find reliable data to use for all countries. It simply can't be done.

We have people that can't afford to go to the doctor. That's a sucky system. We have people that come from all over the world to receive our quality of care. That's an awesome system. I realize that's oversimplifying it quite a bit, but how does one quantify such things?

Sack

sack316
11-04-2010, 11:28 PM
good points Q.

You'll find in my above response to Hondo my thoughts on such charts (which applies whether USA is on top or bottom of such a list)

Sack

LWW
11-05-2010, 04:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Read this:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm </div></div>

Why didn't you?

LWW

hondo
11-05-2010, 05:32 AM
"We have people that can't afford to go to the doctor."

I know many folks who work who are in this situation.
Or they can't afford the medicine prescribed.

It appears that several of my "Right" brethren on here know no such people.

LWW
11-05-2010, 05:35 AM
So why didn't you read your own link?

LWW

hondo
11-05-2010, 05:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Read this:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm </div></div>

Summary

The U.S. does not have the best health care system in the world - it has the best emergency care system in the world. Advanced U.S. medical technology has not translated into better health statistics for its citizens; indeed, the U.S. ranks near the bottom in list after list of international comparisons. Part of the problem is that there is more profit in a pound of cure than an ounce of prevention. Another part of the problem is that America has the highest level of poverty and income inequality among all rich nations, and poverty affects one's health much more than the limited ministrations of a formal health care system.

hondo
11-05-2010, 05:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html </div></div>

Many Americans are under the delusion that we have “the best health care system in the world,” as President Bush sees it, or provide the “best medical care in the world,” as Rudolph Giuliani declared last week. That may be true at many top medical centers. But the disturbing truth is that this country lags well behind other advanced nations in delivering timely and effective care.

hondo
11-05-2010, 05:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.examiner.com/progressive-poli...ystem-the-world </div></div>

The United States does not have the best health care system in the world
August 3rd, 2009 8:03 pm ET.In fact, it's not even close to being the best health care system in the world.

Republicans have fought President Obama on every bill he has worked on and health care reform is no exception.

Senator Richard Shelby (R), Alabama, said that President Obama's health care plan is the "first step in destroying the best health care system the world has ever known."

Senator Chuck Grassley (R), Iowa, told a constituent in a town hall meeting that if he wanted health insurance to get a job with the government. Perhaps Grassley would like the government to provide 47 million jobs to solve the problem of the uninsured in America.

There are several important aspects about the United States health care system that make it one of the worst of all the industrialized nations.

First is the cost:

The truth is that Americans pay more for health care than any other country in the world and yet the health care Americans receive is ranked by the World Health Organization (WHO) 37th in overall performance and 72nd in overall level of health of the 191 nations included in the 2000 study. It's not all bad however, the U.S. is ranked high in catching rare cancers early.

In 2008, a report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the U.S. last in the quality of health care among the 19 countries compared. The United States has the highest infant mortality rate of all develped countries. And yet, the Commonwealth Fund reports that the U.S. "leads all industrialized countries in the share of national health care expenditures devoted to insurance administration.

The United States is the only wealthy, industrialized, developed country in the world that does not offer health care to all of its citizens.

Medical bills prompt more than 60% of all U.S. bankruptcies according to CNN. Bankruptcies attributed to medical bills increased by nearly 50% from 2001 to 2007. 75% of all people who went bankrupt because of medical bills had health insurance.

Private health insurers are in the business of making money and they do, lots of it. One of the ways they continue to make such large profits when the rest of the country is suffering an economic crisis, is by denying people medical care through the use of loopholes. In Texas, a woman with breast cancer needed to have both breasts removed to save her life and her insurance company refused to pay the cost of her surgery due to her pre-existing condition of acne. This is just one example among thousands that have bankrupted Americans who had private health care insurance.

Another way the private health insurance companies keep making record profits is by charging Americans more. Insurance premiums have risen at more than twice that of inflation. Worse, according to the NCHC (National Coalition on Health Care), the average employee contribution to company-provided health insurance has increased more than 120% since 2000. Average out-of-pocket costs for deductibles, co-payments for medications, and co-insurance for physician and hospital visits rose 115% during the same period.

Though Republicans like Senator Shelby insist that America has the best health care system in the world, the facts show that that the United States has one of the worst health care systems of all the developed countries in the world. It is clear that cost factors heavily into why the U.S. has one of the worst health care systems in the world.

Senator Shelby himself, is a recipient of a public option, though he would deny it to his constituents in Alabama and in the rest of the nation. All federal employees have access to the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program which is a system of managed competition. Though private insurance companies provide health care insurance to federal employees, so do labor unions and other employee associations. This creates competition but more importantly, the government pays the greater bulk of your senator's health insurance. In other words, you and I, as taxpayers are paying the bulk of the health care given to Senators and all federal employees, why can't we have the same option?

To get an idea of how much your Senator and Congressional representatives in Washington pay for their health insurance premiums, you can find out here. Your senator can choose between an HMO or a Fee for Services insurance plan and there are a large number of options available.

Here is just the first page of choices that Senators Shelby and Grassley can choose their public health option from:







Health care reform is crucial to the economic success of the United States. When most bankruptcies are caused by medical crises, and 75% of those who went bankrupt because of medical crises had private health insurance, the system is broken. It's certainly not "the best health care system in the world."

The second aspect that makes the U.S. health care system one of the worst of all developed nations in the world is the quality of health:

The United States ranks only 27th in life expectancy of 189 countries. Of the 30 OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) nations, the United States ranks only 22nd in life expectancy. Only Portugal, South Korea, the Czech Republic, Mexico, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Turkey have lower life expectancy rates than the United States.

The United States ranks 25th in infant mortality rates among the 30 OECD nations. Only Turkey, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and Mexico have higher infant mortality rates than the United States.







Conservatives like to compare the U.S. health care system to the health care systems of the U.K., Canada and France as if the Canadian, France and British health systems are not as good as the United States health care system. Canada's life expectancy average is 82.1 years. The life expectancy for citizens of France is 80.9 years and the average life expectancy of those living in the U.K. is 78.9 years. In the United States, the average life expectancy rate is 78.1. But more importantly than life expectancy averages is the fact that in each of those nations, every single citizen has access to health care. The United States is the only developed country in the world that does not offer health care to all of its citizens.

The third aspect of why the United States does not have the best health care in the world ties the first and second together and is tremendously important to the future of the United States' economy:

Because there are 47 million Americans (and that number will continue to climb) who have no health insurance coverage, emergency rooms are clogged with people who have no other way to get treatment for illnesses such as ear infections, flu, and strep throat. Not only does this contribute to a lower efficiency in emergency rooms for true medical emergencies such as heart attacks, it is enormously expensive.

Uninsured Americans have little choice and often turn up in emergency rooms for simple illnesses. Treating a patient in the hospital emergency room for strep throat is very expensive and taxpayers shoulder the burden. While some are afraid that if every American has health insurance through a public option such as the one their Senators enjoy, they will pay the price in taxes, what they should know is that they are already paying the price and the price is much higher than it would be to offer simple public health care options that veterans, government employees and the elderly have.

If we continue to ignore the growing number of uninsured people in this country, we are going to continue to pay more in taxes for their care when they end up in the emergency room with a fever and a sore throat than if they were insured with a basic health insurance option like Senator Shelby and Senator Grassley enjoy.

One would think that uninsured people could visit a family doctor when they have a fever and sore throat and pay the doctor in cash. But it doesn't work that way. A few years ago, my health insurance company fled the state in the middle of the night leaving me uninsured for several months. As a small business owner, I must pay for my own insurance and I pay more than twice what Senator Shelby does for his entire family for a single person in good health. When I was sick, I tried to get in to see a doctor when I had what turned out to be pneumonia. Even though I told each doctor's office I called that I would pay the bill in cash, none of the physicians would see me because I didn't have health insurance.

The United States does not have the best health care system in the world. Even if you have what you think is excellent health care insurance, you cannot be sure that if you have a devastating illness that your insurer will pay for your health care expenses as over 60% of those who had to file bankruptcy found out.

Insurance companies are in the business of taking health care premiums from the insured and working doubly hard not to pay out when the client is sick. Former senior executive of Cigna, Wendell Potter told a Senate Committtee in July, "I worked as a senior executive at health insurance companies and I saw how they confuse their customers and dump the sick: all so they can satisfy their Wall Street Investors." Potter was the company's top PR executive and reported, "This is a very wealthy industry and they use PR very effectively. They manipulate public opinion and the news media and they have built up these relationships with all these politicians through campaign contributions."

The United States does not have the best health care system in the world. The United States ranks behind all other developed nations in the world in life expectancy, infant mortality rates, efficiency, cost and overall care.

If the United States continues to deny health care coverage to the 47 million people that are uninsured, the burden of cost on taxpayers will continue to rise as more and more desperate people rely on emergency care at hospitals for routine illnesses.

Unless you make $250,000 or more a year, your taxes will not be affected by offering health care coverage to the uninsured in this country. If you are so unlucky as to make a quarter of a million or more a year, I'm afraid your taxes will increase by about 3%. But if we continue to refuse health care services to the 47 million people who are uninsured, your taxes will be much higher in the future as 47 million people rely on hospital emergency rooms for their routine health care needs.

It is time for Americans to have a public option like Senator Shelby and Senator Grassley have.

hondo
11-05-2010, 05:58 AM
It appears that when I just post the link, some folks click on and it takes them to a Right wing blog instead so I posted some of the content for the thinking impaired.

hondo
11-05-2010, 06:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf </div></div>

Couldn't get this one to copy. You'll have to actually open it.

pooltchr
11-05-2010, 07:13 AM
Trying to tie the cost of healthcare to the quality of healthcare is of little value. A BMW costs more than a Yugo. Does the higher price tag take away from the quality?

There are so many factors that are used to create these comparisons that it is virtually impossible to come up with a standard. There are simply too many variables involved. Crime statistics would be one. Gang style killings bring down the numbers, as to automobile accidents, etc.

We also count newborn infants in our rates. Once a newborn draws a single breath, they are counted. Many countries do not count the deaths of infants when calculating these figures.

Bottom line. If you were diagnosed with a serious illness, where would you want to be treated? M D Anderson, Duke Medical Center, Johns Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic, UCLA, and I could go on and on.

Steve

Stretch
11-05-2010, 07:31 AM
Enlightning and informative read. Thanks Hondo. St.

LWW
11-06-2010, 02:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf </div></div>

Couldn't get this one to copy. You'll have to actually open it. </div></div>

How revealing is this post?

LWW